The Impossible Sharn [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Impossible Sharn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gospodin_I
11-15-07, 05:00 PM Don't get me wrong. Sharn is my favourite rpg and fantasy place and I'd move to live there if I could (I know it sounds sad but hey... :D)

However, I cannot imagine how such a city would work. I cannot fit it in my head how houses would be situated, roads, streets/corridors, etc.

Of course I realise it's not very reasonable to ask that about a fictional location but still... I really like all the flavour, the S:CT book is one of my fav dnd books but still I just can't get the whole picture in my head and I'm afraid that might be reflecting on my DMing (since we're playing a Sharn-based campaign at the moment).

Any thoughts...?
IMAL
11-15-07, 09:47 PM I imagine it to be similar to Courscant, or one of those futuristic-times metropolis (Blade Runner? I, Robot? That crappy movie with Tom Cruise and those psychic crime fighters?)
I figure there will be hovering do-dads and all those shiny bells and whistles associated with a city on that level of wealth and commerce.

But that's just the top layer of that delicious stone-and-steel cake of mystery and intrigue...

Based on the limited amounts of Sharn-related stuff I've read, I figure that there's layers to the city. There's that shiny, newer city that was built on an older city, and that one was built on an older city, and so on and so forth. I think the bottom of the city would resemble one of those Dire Mutated Zombie Demon-thing infested dungeons.

There's probably levels of the city were makeshift rope bridges and wooden walkways abound, but as you go up, those walkways are replaced by stone bridges, then maybe nice suspension bridges, then magically suspended bridges spanning the chasms between towers, and finally, those game-generic Magically Hovering Automated People Movers (who knows, maybe there's a puzzle area where you have to jump from one platform to the other in correct sequence while mashing some 1990's Simon-esque button combos. I'm sidetracking, though.)

The towers themselves, from what I can gather, are so tall because Sharn is built in a manifest zone between Eberron and another plane. This distorts magic and allows common laws, like gravity, to be broken as if the entire city from 2,000 feet and up was some kind of small-time criminal.

But that's just me.
Label
11-15-07, 10:02 PM http://philipstraub.deviantart.com/art/Rise-of-the-Moon-58585088

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906543
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=438900
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-879790.html
Nived
11-15-07, 11:40 PM You know I was trying to find a good image of Rise of the Seventh moon, its so pretty looking at it but the cover scan on Wizard books, Amazon, and even what I tried to scan myself doesn't get the clarity of what's there that you can see on the cover with your naked eye... thank you for the link to that full image... it is indeed beautiful, the most beautiful shot of Sharn's skyline that I've ever seen.

Sharn is a wonderous place, but it only works because of magical lifts, sky coaches, hippogriffs, giant eagles, giant owls, dire hawks, griffons, pegasai ect. Remember as the districts go up, so does the wealth, there aren't as many sky bridges or connections between the towers high up as there are below... but those in the upper districts are more likely to afford modes of flying transportation.
JulesCARV
11-16-07, 01:40 AM Bear in mind that Sharn is the biggest city in Khorvaire, but that it is still, ultimately, a city with roughly the population of Rochester, New York or Des Moines, Iowa. I imagine that there are some very dense districts where the city is packed with towers with upper-story to upper-story bridges and such, but much of Sharn is probably like a fairly dense middle ages city -- closely packed buildings on winding streets, but four stories tall, not sixty stories tall as they are in the central business districts where an acre of real estate costs thousands of Galifars for an empty lot -- if there are any.
Gurv
11-16-07, 02:35 AM I would have pointed you to the same page Label did. I was particularly impressed with this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13945311&postcount=19), which I think best describes how a city like Sharn would have grown. Thus, you get an understanding of why it is what it is.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
11-16-07, 03:09 AM The picture Label posted is pretty, but just looks likes a modern city core with a lot of sky scrapers. No platforms, no bridges, no balconies. Windows cover all walls.
There wouldn't be any "houses" except perhaps penthouses, only rooms inside these giant towers - which is how I personally image Sharn (a gigantic above-ground dungeon), but doesn't seem to be what Keith Baker had in mind.
mosaic
11-17-07, 01:33 AM I was particularly impressed with this post, which I think best describes how a city like Sharn would have grown.

Blush ;)

The picture Label posted is pretty, but just looks likes a modern city core with a lot of sky scrapers. No platforms, no bridges, no balconies. Windows cover all walls.
There wouldn't be any "houses" except perhaps penthouses, only rooms inside these giant towers - which is how I personally image Sharn (a gigantic above-ground dungeon), but doesn't seem to be what Keith Baker had in mind.

My current project is going back to all the books, particularly S:CoT, and pulling out every single description of the city I can find, focusing on architecture and especially descriptions of named towers. I figure most (but certainly not all) named towers will rise from ground level up through various wards and demonstrate the changes in feeling of the city. Just_some_Evil_Wizard is absolutely correct; when Keith Baker gets specific, he talks about towers being inward-facing, with interior courtyards ringed by townhouses and shops, kind of like some of those bog atrium hotels. And I see that happening too, not necessarily as part of the original design, but in older towers whose hearts have been cleared and rebuilt.

And I think my model does leave room for bridges and platforms and balconies; they're just later add-ons, not part of some grand design. Actually, because most of my buildings would be outward-facing, I imagine balconies and platforms all over the place, more even I think than in Keith's original. Without as much open interior space, you'd almost need at least a small platform around every level. You probably get grand platforms sticking way out every four or five levels. These are where you'd find vendors and booths set up on the streets. In wealthy areas these would be regulated and orderly (like farmers markets that visit certain neighborhood on certain days) but in the poor areas it would be a free for all, and some would become semi-permanent. They'd build shacks and lean-to on the outsides of the towers and you'd get this growth, like parasitic vines up a big tree, clinging to it yet not actually part of it.

Also, in my re-reading of everything I've come to appreciate that some of the architecture does actually float. There are some towers that do not touch the ground. They jut out of a bigger tower on some (literally) flying buttress and go up from there. Going back to Keith's description, you might still find rings of townhouses, but rather than being on the inside, they'd be on the outside, like a life-preserver or a donut pushed down onto a tower, creating bulges that are larger than the tower above or below. So yes, mostly windows, but also doors, balconies, platforms and bridges on the outside, but a lot more irregular and improbable than most modern skyscrapers.

Two other thoughts worth mentioning. First, I also reading Five Fingers: Port of Deceit by Privateer Press. It's part of their Iron Kingdoms line and describes a large pirate city. Like Sharn, it features a lot of tall buildings, but these are more like shanties built upon shanties, giving everything a crooked-about-to-fall-down look. And because of topographical variations, some parts of the city are much higher than others. One of the unique areas of the city is a gobbler (goblin) neighborhood called the Rigs. The Rigs consists entirely of rope bridges and plank catwalks and suspended platforms with shacks built on them, all hanging between some of the larger buildings and hills in the city. I can absolutely see this in Sharn. Exactly as someone mentioned above, real stone bridges would connect real streets and officially sanctioned crossings between towers, but folks would build their own shortcuts too, especially in areas where the city government was slow to respond to their requests for a new bridge or was slow in knocking down makeshift crossings.

Second, in re-reading the sections on the lower parts of Sharn, there's no way that today's "lower wards" were the original ground level. I know that modern Sharn is built atop other, older cities, but I think the floor of even the modern city has risen somewhat. Why else would you have towers that extend that far underground? And why would there be open spaces between some of the foundations (as shown on several maps)? The only thing that I can come up with is some of what is now below ground, like the sewers and upper portions of the Depths, were once ground level. But as Sharn's towers and population grew (and I'm talking about in recent history, in the current incarnation of the city), the lowest areas became so bad that it was just easier to lay new sewers in the streets and build a new "floor" right over them. In other places, the platforms at five or six stories up just grew together and closed off the areas below, creating a new, artificial ground-level. It's almost like Escape from New York or Running Man where parts of the city just get walled off rather than repaired. Fallen (former known as Godsgate) had better watch out or the same thing may happen to it soon.

Anyway, sorry, I begin to ramble. I'll try to get my architectural review up soon.
skrap-san
11-17-07, 03:19 AM I must say Mosaic, that was a great post about the look and feel of Sharn. Well done, I almost want to make a Sharn only campaign.
DMDaddy
11-17-07, 03:25 AM I just can't get the whole picture in my head and I'm afraid that might be reflecting on my DMing (since we're playing a Sharn-based campaign at the moment).

Any thoughts...?

If you read enough of the posts and links, you'll get it in your head pretty good. But, mapping it out will be a whole new thing. I too am at a loss with mapping out specific locations. So, what I do is I only map out one specific location per session (maybe two). I'm talking about small locations, like just a part of a tower, or just one floor toward the top. Sometimes I even map out sections of a district.

The rest of the city is left for the imagination. I use many generalities to explain to the PCs. I do nothing in Sharn on the spur of a moment, but have to always plan out things in advance. The book is awesome but hard to utilize for me. Good luck 'cause I'm with you on this one.
Gospodin_I
11-17-07, 09:27 AM mosaic, your treatises on Sharn are really amazing and very helpful at least to me so thank you for them.

And thanks for all other replies to my "question" I think I'm a little better at grasping the basics of the city now.

I'm also rereading the sourcebook on Sharn and other books about it and they're also helping. Oh, mosaic, I'm looking forward to your next "architectural review"! :)
Nived
11-17-07, 12:48 PM For the lower districts of Sharn I think of Chicago. I don't mean that in a bad way I just mean that in Chicago street level isn't the ground floor. I don't mean a subterrainian city, because it's not 'underground' persae, rather they built the streets up. Some places downtown there are three streets on top of each other.

And those lower streets are still open, used every day, generally the lower streets are for thruways and deliveries but they're not tunnels, they're normal city blocks, they just happen to have streets built up over them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Photos/dsc00686.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Photos/dsc00687.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Photos/856540905_af5990d77c_m.jpg

Since its still business and not residential, I'd imagine that these districts best represent Precarious and The Stores districts in Dura, but still they offer a glimpse.
mosaic
11-17-07, 11:36 PM Pictures = 1,000 words. Thanks. While Sharn isn't a modern, real world city, I think there is a lot of inspiration to be had in some of the stranger and more fantastic aspects of RW cities.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
11-18-07, 04:29 PM Certain large, vertically built malls have something about them which reminds of Sharn. Large complexes with some shops built into the "walls" and some complete shacks inside the structure. Multiply the size by x100, and you have something similar (though not complete like, as it is completely "indoors") to Sharn.

Can't find any really good pictures, but

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cevahir_Mall.jpg
http://www.daleyblog.com/weblog/mall-1.jpg
TheKeyofE
11-18-07, 07:13 PM For the lower districts of Sharn I think of Chicago. I don't mean that in a bad way I just mean that in Chicago street level isn't the ground floor. I don't mean a subterrainian city, because it's not 'underground' persae, rather they built the streets up. Some places downtown there are three streets on top of each other.

And those lower streets are still open, used every day, generally the lower streets are for thruways and deliveries but they're not tunnels, they're normal city blocks, they just happen to have streets built up over them.

*nodnod* That's one of the things I loved most about Chicago when I lived there.
Gospodin_I
11-19-07, 03:28 AM For the lower districts of Sharn I think of Chicago.

Certain large, vertically built malls have something about them which reminds of Sharn. Large complexes with some shops built into the "walls" and some complete shacks inside the structure. Multiply the size by x100, and you have something similar (though not complete like, as it is completely "indoors") to Sharn.

Can't find any really good pictures, but

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cevahir_Mall.jpg
http://www.daleyblog.com/weblog/mall-1.jpg

While Chicago and malls are good example I think Sharn is much more crowded, narrow, dirty, etc. And definitely much more chaotic in the way it's build since there aren't all the institutions to provide that towers, bridges, houses, etc. are built according to the best criteria. So maybe they are not the best examples but especially Chicago helps imagine it...I think...
OctaviusIII
11-21-07, 04:02 AM Well, I found some pictures of "the Depths": the walled city of Kowloon.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=55357
Nived
11-21-07, 08:17 AM Kowloon is real? I'd heard of it in a fictional story and thought that area of Honk Kong was... well fictional.

Wow.
Gospodin_I
11-21-07, 09:24 AM Well, I found some pictures of "the Depths": the walled city of Kowloon.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=55357

Well...I actually think most of lower and mid-level Sharn is like this... :) Without all the wires of course...
Nived
11-21-07, 09:51 AM I don't know about that, plenty of middle and lower wards are described as middle class, particularly Central Plateau and Northedge the middle and lower wards are still described as rather nice.

In contrast in Dura some of the upper wards are described as lower class.

While verticle stratification is valid in Sharn you also have to consider the district, I'd rather be in lower Central than middle Dura.
OctaviusIII
11-21-07, 03:56 PM Well, I don't think it's Lower Sharn. In my mind, Lower Sharn consists of roads around 2 lanes wide and alleyways that cut through towers. Above, the narrow sliver of sky that escapes between the towers is partially covered by skybridges. It is dim, but no worse than early dusk. You rarely, if ever, think of the Depths below, which are little more than alleyways beneath your feet.
TheKeyofE
11-22-07, 07:12 AM Has anyone considered the parallel to Taris from KotOR? It had vertical stratification similar to Sharn.
Veritatis
11-22-07, 10:31 AM If you played Magic the Gathering a couple years ago, images from "Ravnica: City of Guilds" might be useful... here�s a useful link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/284) with several concept arts.

You can also find other examples of vast cities in Wikipedia, they are known as ecumenopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenopolis).
mosaic
11-24-07, 11:43 PM I love the Ravnica artwork. And Kowloon ... jeez, that's for real. I have to admit that most of my mental images of Lower Sharn and the Depths also come from the third world, mostly Manilla and Mexico City. There just nothing in the US or Europe that I've seen that can compare to the sprawling chaos of a third-world megalopolis.
sapient
11-25-07, 04:30 AM When I visited Italy this spring, during a stop in Florence, I walked across the bridge Ponte Vecchio (old bridge). It was built in medieval times, with a broad stone base, and along most of the sides are houses crammed in a sprawling almost labyrinthic way, housing shops and souvenir boutiqes.

Making your way across the bridge through the opressive mass of tourists, sellers and natives, you suddenly come to gap between the houses were there's open sky. (Unless you're right at the side, you won't notice the river - you just see the other houses crowding the riverfront in a distance.)

For an instance you really feel that this entire construction is not on the ground - because even though you where walking between houses just now, there's nothing around. Only air.

THAT felt like Sharn to me.
Questing GM
11-25-07, 04:47 AM I have to say that this picture (from the Ravnica link) is one the best way to vision the image of Sharn for me :eek:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/features/284_plainsart.jpg
SpaceHopper
11-29-07, 10:50 AM I've always envisioned Sharn as Mega-City 1 (From Judge Dredd/2000AD comics) but made with magic instead of Hi-tech.
Both are multi-tiered cities that work on the rough principal that the lower down you go, the worse the living conditions.

That last picture (linked by Questing GM) is awesome, and fits my mental image near perfectly (though there should only be one floating cityblock, and that's larger and flatter)
Lord_Tirian
11-29-07, 07:33 PM You also may want to look at San Gimignano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gimignano), which is famous for its towers. Which are claustrophobically narrow and cramped (or people were simply less tall than today). It's interesting, and you may want to google it for more pictures.

Cheers, LT.
OctaviusIII
11-29-07, 10:04 PM I like the medieval and fantasy images significantly more simply because of the way the city is designed. It's not a modern city like we know it in many ways. The architecture is quite foreign - huge towers, with a lot of indoor public spaces. Like the Grand Bazaar (http://www.travel-tidbits.com/tidbits/images/turkey/TK_Istanbul_Grand_Bazaar.jpg), say, or like the San Francisco Hyatt (http://blog.aia.org/mt-static/plugins/Ajaxify/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/imagemanager/images/favorite_architecture_images/hyatt_600_x_434.jpg) (albeit less modernist than that).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gospodin_I 11-15-07, 05:00 PM	Don't get me wrong. Sharn is my favourite rpg and fantasy place and I'd move to live there if I could (I know it sounds sad but hey... :D) However, I cannot imagine how such a city would work. I cannot fit it in my head how houses would be situated, roads, streets/corridors, etc. Of course I realise it's not very reasonable to ask that about a fictional location but still... I really like all the flavour, the S:CT book is one of my fav dnd books but still I just can't get the whole picture in my head and I'm afraid that might be reflecting on my DMing (since we're playing a Sharn-based campaign at the moment). Any thoughts...?
IMAL 11-15-07, 09:47 PM	I imagine it to be similar to Courscant, or one of those futuristic-times metropolis (Blade Runner? I, Robot? That crappy movie with Tom Cruise and those psychic crime fighters?) I figure there will be hovering do-dads and all those shiny bells and whistles associated with a city on that level of wealth and commerce. But that's just the top layer of that delicious stone-and-steel cake of mystery and intrigue... Based on the limited amounts of Sharn-related stuff I've read, I figure that there's layers to the city. There's that shiny, newer city that was built on an older city, and that one was built on an older city, and so on and so forth. I think the bottom of the city would resemble one of those Dire Mutated Zombie Demon-thing infested dungeons. There's probably levels of the city were makeshift rope bridges and wooden walkways abound, but as you go up, those walkways are replaced by stone bridges, then maybe nice suspension bridges, then magically suspended bridges spanning the chasms between towers, and finally, those game-generic Magically Hovering Automated People Movers (who knows, maybe there's a puzzle area where you have to jump from one platform to the other in correct sequence while mashing some 1990's Simon-esque button combos. I'm sidetracking, though.) The towers themselves, from what I can gather, are so tall because Sharn is built in a manifest zone between Eberron and another plane. This distorts magic and allows common laws, like gravity, to be broken as if the entire city from 2,000 feet and up was some kind of small-time criminal. But that's just me.
Label 11-15-07, 10:02 PM	http://philipstraub.deviantart.com/art/Rise-of-the-Moon-58585088 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906543 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=438900 http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-879790.html
Nived 11-15-07, 11:40 PM	You know I was trying to find a good image of Rise of the Seventh moon, its so pretty looking at it but the cover scan on Wizard books, Amazon, and even what I tried to scan myself doesn't get the clarity of what's there that you can see on the cover with your naked eye... thank you for the link to that full image... it is indeed beautiful, the most beautiful shot of Sharn's skyline that I've ever seen. Sharn is a wonderous place, but it only works because of magical lifts, sky coaches, hippogriffs, giant eagles, giant owls, dire hawks, griffons, pegasai ect. Remember as the districts go up, so does the wealth, there aren't as many sky bridges or connections between the towers high up as there are below... but those in the upper districts are more likely to afford modes of flying transportation.
JulesCARV 11-16-07, 01:40 AM	Bear in mind that Sharn is the biggest city in Khorvaire, but that it is still, ultimately, a city with roughly the population of Rochester, New York or Des Moines, Iowa. I imagine that there are some very dense districts where the city is packed with towers with upper-story to upper-story bridges and such, but much of Sharn is probably like a fairly dense middle ages city -- closely packed buildings on winding streets, but four stories tall, not sixty stories tall as they are in the central business districts where an acre of real estate costs thousands of Galifars for an empty lot -- if there are any.
Gurv 11-16-07, 02:35 AM	I would have pointed you to the same page Label did. I was particularly impressed with this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13945311&postcount=19), which I think best describes how a city like Sharn would have grown. Thus, you get an understanding of why it is what it is.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-16-07, 03:09 AM	The picture Label posted is pretty, but just looks likes a modern city core with a lot of sky scrapers. No platforms, no bridges, no balconies. Windows cover all walls. There wouldn't be any "houses" except perhaps penthouses, only rooms inside these giant towers - which is how I personally image Sharn (a gigantic above-ground dungeon), but doesn't seem to be what Keith Baker had in mind.
mosaic 11-17-07, 01:33 AM	I was particularly impressed with this post, which I think best describes how a city like Sharn would have grown. Blush ;) The picture Label posted is pretty, but just looks likes a modern city core with a lot of sky scrapers. No platforms, no bridges, no balconies. Windows cover all walls. There wouldn't be any "houses" except perhaps penthouses, only rooms inside these giant towers - which is how I personally image Sharn (a gigantic above-ground dungeon), but doesn't seem to be what Keith Baker had in mind. My current project is going back to all the books, particularly S:CoT, and pulling out every single description of the city I can find, focusing on architecture and especially descriptions of named towers. I figure most (but certainly not all) named towers will rise from ground level up through various wards and demonstrate the changes in feeling of the city. Just_some_Evil_Wizard is absolutely correct; when Keith Baker gets specific, he talks about towers being inward-facing, with interior courtyards ringed by townhouses and shops, kind of like some of those bog atrium hotels. And I see that happening too, not necessarily as part of the original design, but in older towers whose hearts have been cleared and rebuilt. And I think my model does leave room for bridges and platforms and balconies; they're just later add-ons, not part of some grand design. Actually, because most of my buildings would be outward-facing, I imagine balconies and platforms all over the place, more even I think than in Keith's original. Without as much open interior space, you'd almost need at least a small platform around every level. You probably get grand platforms sticking way out every four or five levels. These are where you'd find vendors and booths set up on the streets. In wealthy areas these would be regulated and orderly (like farmers markets that visit certain neighborhood on certain days) but in the poor areas it would be a free for all, and some would become semi-permanent. They'd build shacks and lean-to on the outsides of the towers and you'd get this growth, like parasitic vines up a big tree, clinging to it yet not actually part of it. Also, in my re-reading of everything I've come to appreciate that some of the architecture does actually float. There are some towers that do not touch the ground. They jut out of a bigger tower on some (literally) flying buttress and go up from there. Going back to Keith's description, you might still find rings of townhouses, but rather than being on the inside, they'd be on the outside, like a life-preserver or a donut pushed down onto a tower, creating bulges that are larger than the tower above or below. So yes, mostly windows, but also doors, balconies, platforms and bridges on the outside, but a lot more irregular and improbable than most modern skyscrapers. Two other thoughts worth mentioning. First, I also reading Five Fingers: Port of Deceit by Privateer Press. It's part of their Iron Kingdoms line and describes a large pirate city. Like Sharn, it features a lot of tall buildings, but these are more like shanties built upon shanties, giving everything a crooked-about-to-fall-down look. And because of topographical variations, some parts of the city are much higher than others. One of the unique areas of the city is a gobbler (goblin) neighborhood called the Rigs. The Rigs consists entirely of rope bridges and plank catwalks and suspended platforms with shacks built on them, all hanging between some of the larger buildings and hills in the city. I can absolutely see this in Sharn. Exactly as someone mentioned above, real stone bridges would connect real streets and officially sanctioned crossings between towers, but folks would build their own shortcuts too, especially in areas where the city government was slow to respond to their requests for a new bridge or was slow in knocking down makeshift crossings. Second, in re-reading the sections on the lower parts of Sharn, there's no way that today's "lower wards" were the original ground level. I know that modern Sharn is built atop other, older cities, but I think the floor of even the modern city has risen somewhat. Why else would you have towers that extend that far underground? And why would there be open spaces between some of the foundations (as shown on several maps)? The only thing that I can come up with is some of what is now below ground, like the sewers and upper portions of the Depths, were once ground level. But as Sharn's towers and population grew (and I'm talking about in recent history, in the current incarnation of the city), the lowest areas became so bad that it was just easier to lay new sewers in the streets and build a new "floor" right over them. In other places, the platforms at five or six stories up just grew together and closed off the areas below, creating a new, artificial ground-level. It's almost like Escape from New York or Running Man where parts of the city just get walled off rather than repaired. Fallen (former known as Godsgate) had better watch out or the same thing may happen to it soon. Anyway, sorry, I begin to ramble. I'll try to get my architectural review up soon.
skrap-san 11-17-07, 03:19 AM	I must say Mosaic, that was a great post about the look and feel of Sharn. Well done, I almost want to make a Sharn only campaign.
DMDaddy 11-17-07, 03:25 AM	I just can't get the whole picture in my head and I'm afraid that might be reflecting on my DMing (since we're playing a Sharn-based campaign at the moment). Any thoughts...? If you read enough of the posts and links, you'll get it in your head pretty good. But, mapping it out will be a whole new thing. I too am at a loss with mapping out specific locations. So, what I do is I only map out one specific location per session (maybe two). I'm talking about small locations, like just a part of a tower, or just one floor toward the top. Sometimes I even map out sections of a district. The rest of the city is left for the imagination. I use many generalities to explain to the PCs. I do nothing in Sharn on the spur of a moment, but have to always plan out things in advance. The book is awesome but hard to utilize for me. Good luck 'cause I'm with you on this one.
Gospodin_I 11-17-07, 09:27 AM	mosaic, your treatises on Sharn are really amazing and very helpful at least to me so thank you for them. And thanks for all other replies to my "question" I think I'm a little better at grasping the basics of the city now. I'm also rereading the sourcebook on Sharn and other books about it and they're also helping. Oh, mosaic, I'm looking forward to your next "architectural review"! :)
Nived 11-17-07, 12:48 PM	For the lower districts of Sharn I think of Chicago. I don't mean that in a bad way I just mean that in Chicago street level isn't the ground floor. I don't mean a subterrainian city, because it's not 'underground' persae, rather they built the streets up. Some places downtown there are three streets on top of each other. And those lower streets are still open, used every day, generally the lower streets are for thruways and deliveries but they're not tunnels, they're normal city blocks, they just happen to have streets built up over them. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Photos/dsc00686.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Photos/dsc00687.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Photos/856540905_af5990d77c_m.jpg Since its still business and not residential, I'd imagine that these districts best represent Precarious and The Stores districts in Dura, but still they offer a glimpse.
mosaic 11-17-07, 11:36 PM	Pictures = 1,000 words. Thanks. While Sharn isn't a modern, real world city, I think there is a lot of inspiration to be had in some of the stranger and more fantastic aspects of RW cities.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-18-07, 04:29 PM	Certain large, vertically built malls have something about them which reminds of Sharn. Large complexes with some shops built into the "walls" and some complete shacks inside the structure. Multiply the size by x100, and you have something similar (though not complete like, as it is completely "indoors") to Sharn. Can't find any really good pictures, but http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cevahir_Mall.jpg http://www.daleyblog.com/weblog/mall-1.jpg
TheKeyofE 11-18-07, 07:13 PM	For the lower districts of Sharn I think of Chicago. I don't mean that in a bad way I just mean that in Chicago street level isn't the ground floor. I don't mean a subterrainian city, because it's not 'underground' persae, rather they built the streets up. Some places downtown there are three streets on top of each other. And those lower streets are still open, used every day, generally the lower streets are for thruways and deliveries but they're not tunnels, they're normal city blocks, they just happen to have streets built up over them. nodnod That's one of the things I loved most about Chicago when I lived there.
Gospodin_I 11-19-07, 03:28 AM	For the lower districts of Sharn I think of Chicago. Certain large, vertically built malls have something about them which reminds of Sharn. Large complexes with some shops built into the "walls" and some complete shacks inside the structure. Multiply the size by x100, and you have something similar (though not complete like, as it is completely "indoors") to Sharn. Can't find any really good pictures, but http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cevahir_Mall.jpg http://www.daleyblog.com/weblog/mall-1.jpg While Chicago and malls are good example I think Sharn is much more crowded, narrow, dirty, etc. And definitely much more chaotic in the way it's build since there aren't all the institutions to provide that towers, bridges, houses, etc. are built according to the best criteria. So maybe they are not the best examples but especially Chicago helps imagine it...I think...
OctaviusIII 11-21-07, 04:02 AM	Well, I found some pictures of "the Depths": the walled city of Kowloon. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=55357
Nived 11-21-07, 08:17 AM	Kowloon is real? I'd heard of it in a fictional story and thought that area of Honk Kong was... well fictional. Wow.
Gospodin_I 11-21-07, 09:24 AM	Well, I found some pictures of "the Depths": the walled city of Kowloon. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=55357 Well...I actually think most of lower and mid-level Sharn is like this... :) Without all the wires of course...
Nived 11-21-07, 09:51 AM	I don't know about that, plenty of middle and lower wards are described as middle class, particularly Central Plateau and Northedge the middle and lower wards are still described as rather nice. In contrast in Dura some of the upper wards are described as lower class. While verticle stratification is valid in Sharn you also have to consider the district, I'd rather be in lower Central than middle Dura.
OctaviusIII 11-21-07, 03:56 PM	Well, I don't think it's Lower Sharn. In my mind, Lower Sharn consists of roads around 2 lanes wide and alleyways that cut through towers. Above, the narrow sliver of sky that escapes between the towers is partially covered by skybridges. It is dim, but no worse than early dusk. You rarely, if ever, think of the Depths below, which are little more than alleyways beneath your feet.
TheKeyofE 11-22-07, 07:12 AM	Has anyone considered the parallel to Taris from KotOR? It had vertical stratification similar to Sharn.
Veritatis 11-22-07, 10:31 AM	If you played Magic the Gathering a couple years ago, images from "Ravnica: City of Guilds" might be useful... here�s a useful link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/284) with several concept arts. You can also find other examples of vast cities in Wikipedia, they are known as ecumenopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenopolis).
mosaic 11-24-07, 11:43 PM	I love the Ravnica artwork. And Kowloon ... jeez, that's for real. I have to admit that most of my mental images of Lower Sharn and the Depths also come from the third world, mostly Manilla and Mexico City. There just nothing in the US or Europe that I've seen that can compare to the sprawling chaos of a third-world megalopolis.
sapient 11-25-07, 04:30 AM	When I visited Italy this spring, during a stop in Florence, I walked across the bridge Ponte Vecchio (old bridge). It was built in medieval times, with a broad stone base, and along most of the sides are houses crammed in a sprawling almost labyrinthic way, housing shops and souvenir boutiqes. Making your way across the bridge through the opressive mass of tourists, sellers and natives, you suddenly come to gap between the houses were there's open sky. (Unless you're right at the side, you won't notice the river - you just see the other houses crowding the riverfront in a distance.) For an instance you really feel that this entire construction is not on the ground - because even though you where walking between houses just now, there's nothing around. Only air. THAT felt like Sharn to me.
Questing GM 11-25-07, 04:47 AM	I have to say that this picture (from the Ravnica link) is one the best way to vision the image of Sharn for me :eek: http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/features/284_plainsart.jpg
SpaceHopper 11-29-07, 10:50 AM	I've always envisioned Sharn as Mega-City 1 (From Judge Dredd/2000AD comics) but made with magic instead of Hi-tech. Both are multi-tiered cities that work on the rough principal that the lower down you go, the worse the living conditions. That last picture (linked by Questing GM) is awesome, and fits my mental image near perfectly (though there should only be one floating cityblock, and that's larger and flatter)
Lord_Tirian 11-29-07, 07:33 PM	You also may want to look at San Gimignano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gimignano), which is famous for its towers. Which are claustrophobically narrow and cramped (or people were simply less tall than today). It's interesting, and you may want to google it for more pictures. Cheers, LT.
OctaviusIII 11-29-07, 10:04 PM	I like the medieval and fantasy images significantly more simply because of the way the city is designed. It's not a modern city like we know it in many ways. The architecture is quite foreign - huge towers, with a lot of indoor public spaces. Like the Grand Bazaar (http://www.travel-tidbits.com/tidbits/images/turkey/TK_Istanbul_Grand_Bazaar.jpg), say, or like the San Francisco Hyatt (http://blog.aia.org/mt-static/plugins/Ajaxify/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/imagemanager/images/favorite_architecture_images/hyatt_600_x_434.jpg) (albeit less modernist than that).