The Populace of the Demon Wastes [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Populace of the Demon Wastes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
loseth
04-06-07, 11:56 AM According to the ECS, the Demon Wastes are home to about 270k humans, 170k orcs and 150k 'demons.' Now, I know rakshasas are technically outsiders, but I've always got the impression (from the ECS, Dragon Magazine and the Eberron novel dealing with them) that they are treated as a sort of fiend or demon in Eberron. We're also told that the rakshasas once dominated Khorvaire and Sarlona, implying reasonable numbers of them. Could much of the 'demon' population in the Wastes be rakshasas? If not, what demons do you think would be most numerous in the Demon Wastes?
MetaEidolon
04-06-07, 05:21 PM I think that rakshasas probably account for a large majority of the fiendish population of the Wastes, keeping in mind that there are subraces within the category of rakshasa, and some of them I'm sure are more common than others.

Furthermore, I came to the conclusion long ago that "fiends" as used in the context of Eberron, are not only rakshasas, but also demons, devils, and most likely, any number of other "evil" creatures (hags, elementals, etc) that could be considered "native" by Eberron standards, as well as a smaller minority of outsiders exiled from the 13 planes.

I'm trying to write a plot that revolves around the epic struggles of the Lords of Dust myself, and am very interested in what others may say on this issue.
Yakman
04-10-07, 10:52 AM I've always felt that the vast, vast, vast majority of those listed as "fiends" are fiend-touched/tiefling types with a bit of evil in their blood. Most of them (~90%) are basically human/orc/half-orc.
loseth
04-10-07, 11:32 AM I've always felt that the vast, vast, vast majority of those listed as "fiends" are fiend-touched/tiefling types with a bit of evil in their blood. Most of them (~90%) are basically human/orc/half-orc.

Hmm...that would definitely be more in keeping with the low power level of Khorvaire's surface.
Yakman
04-17-07, 10:19 AM And really, it makes a lot more sense--would any humans/orc/half-orcs be able to survive if there really were that many true fiends running around? Nope.

Plus, it offers more roleplaying possibilities, while still allowing for lots of bizarre monsters for teh PCs to get taken to school by.
lugnut71
04-20-07, 12:33 PM Although I would argue the average human running around in the demon wastes is a lot tougher than someone running around in say Breland. Same for the orcs guarding the maze. Most likely if they weren't too busy killing each other in the Demon Wastes the rest of Khovaire would have a very dangerous enemy on its hands.
Yakman
04-20-07, 01:14 PM Although I would argue the average human running around in the demon wastes is a lot tougher than someone running around in say Breland. Same for the orcs guarding the maze. Most likely if they weren't too busy killing each other in the Demon Wastes the rest of Khovaire would have a very dangerous enemy on its hands.
I dunno about that. He's likely malnourished, sickened by the radiations/evilness, knows nothing other than primitive survival skills, and trusts no one outside his immediate clan.

The Brelander might not be able to take him on man to man, but 100 brelish infantry would wipe the floor with 100 demon waster warriors.
lugnut71
04-22-07, 12:06 AM True but then they get rabies. I picture it as more of a survival of the fittest. The demon wastes destroy the weak, while quickly elavating the strong. Your average Brelander is unlikely to ever see anything worse than a wolf. Your average Demon waster sees far worse. Of course they also probably have a life expectancy measured in hours too. Truth be told though I couldn't really tell you what an average demon waster would be. They are kind of left up to the DM while Brelanders are pretty well statted out. I guess over all I would stat them with PC classes more similair to the Seren's than NPC classes.
AkumaDaimyo
04-22-07, 07:44 AM You average demon waster could be anything from a human, half-orc or full orc to a tiefling or half-fiend it sounds like.
taski
04-22-07, 06:48 PM In my game, there are a few raptoran tribes in the Demon Wastes. They're a rakshasa experiment in humanoid/animal creatures, set loose. They're vicious cannibals, who collect orc tusks to weave into their armor.
Euangelion
04-22-07, 09:55 PM First of all, there's some confusion even among those who have participated in writing the sourcebooks exactly what is meant by "demon" in "Demon Wastes." The random encounter table in Explorer's Handbook takes it literally, as in Tanaari. I asked Keith about this a long time ago, and he suggested seriously modifying the tables to include things like fiendish dire animals and the such instead of outsiders with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes.
This raises the possibility that many of those so-called fiends could be fiendish animals (bearing in mind that all fiendish creatures have an intelligence of at least 3, making them fully sentient creatures, and thus can be included in population figures.) So you've got many options: standard rakshasas, zakyas (ECS), nazathrunes (MM3), ak-chalazar (MM3), tieflings, half-fiends, unholy scions (Heroes of Horror), and fiendish creatures. As for the fiendish creatures, why not humanoids and monstrous humanoids as well as animals? Years among the tainted Wastes may indeed produce a large number of fiendish humans (though the sakah feats from PGtE are meant to be the primary way of designating a Khyber-touched human). As for percentages of the total population of fiends, just go with a large number of the lower CR fiend-related creatures (80-85%), then raksashas of various kinds (13-19%), with 1-2% "other fiend" such as the night hags, devils and demons from Shavarath, and other evil outsiders from Mabar, Risia, Fernia, Lamannia, Xoriat, and maybe even Dol Quor. Very dangerous, but not necessarily overwhelming to the rest of Khorvaire.

Edit: please don't flame my spelling too much, though being too lazy to look it up doesn't really sound like a good excuse after all.
Dragom
04-22-07, 10:16 PM I kind of Figured Humans from the Demon Wastes most likely to be using non-metalic weapons in combat. Like maces that are chunks of wood with teeth and claws added to them and a heavy reliance on leather and hide for armour.

Not very threatening at all even with 2 or 3 levels on them.
MetaEidolon
04-22-07, 11:12 PM I've been thinking, and I figure that even though the DW are harsh and unforgiving, they aren't necessarily uninhabitable. That is to say, there are tribes living in the Wastes, and there has to be some form of food to support a tribe, and that means a small degree of arable soil, as well as a complex ecosystem. I picture them as being similar to the deserts of Athas or the Sahara (though rocky desert, not sand); mostly uninhabitable, but with oases where our tribes can develop and sustain a culture. Not the typical oasis, however, there are no palm fronds here, but just enough to sustain a harsh lifestyle. I imagine many of these havens have been built on, if not by the tribes that inhabit them, then by ruins from the age of demons.

As for the nature of the population, I think that even half-fiends are rare among the humans and orcs. True fiends, especially rakasha however, have more important things on their agendas then to trouble the tribesmen. I've been starting to flesh out the power groups among the Lord of Dust, and have come to the conclusion that a very feudal (and mercurial) hierarchy of fealties characterizes the fiends, and I think that they would be very likely to congregate in the same ancient places (along with humans and orcs as slaves) like Ashtakala (tough I am sure there could be other, smaller and less obvious enclaves spread throughout the Demon Wastes).
Dragom
04-22-07, 11:30 PM (along with humans and orcs as slaves)

Slaves and/or Miscellanious Followers and/or Devoted Worshipers and/or Half-Feral Fanatics

All kind of depends on which lord of dust I think. As for troubling the Tribes People... What else are the Tribes People for?

Though Fiendish humans would be far more common then Half-Fiends. Those merely tainted in the womb by the evil ambiance of the Demon Wastes rather then those with mixed heritage I mean.
lulzapalooza
04-23-07, 12:04 AM In my game there's a town composed mostly of Dretches in the Demon Waste they call Milltooth.
Yakman
04-23-07, 10:50 AM I've always seen the demon wastes as a sort of Tibet (the real Tibet, mind you, not Lost Horizon-style BS), with demons replacing buddhas. There are some settlements, mostly based around demonic monasteries, with lots of nomads. Vast deserts, little water, life is rough and ready. But the people aren't neccesarily evil--they just live in an evil land. As I said before, most people are pretty normal--humans, orcs, half/orcs. Those who are 'demonic' are tieflings or less demonic--some horn nubs, weird eyes, etc..
lugnut71
04-24-07, 12:46 PM I do agree most of the land will be empty, I pictured a more nomadic lifestyle for the majority of the population though. Although there are stationary ones (typically those with a powerful outsider, that is likely to be stationary). Most of them would be the typical xenophobic group, not really evil. Just that most strangers they are used to tend to be dangerous.
MetaEidolon
05-02-07, 02:10 PM I do agree most of the land will be empty, I pictured a more nomadic lifestyle for the majority of the population though. Although there are stationary ones (typically those with a powerful outsider, that is likely to be stationary). Most of them would be the typical xenophobic group, not really evil. Just that most strangers they are used to tend to be dangerous.

I disagree with the idea of a nomadic populace; with so few areas that could support a tribe, leaving could easily open the tribe to more serious danger, such as starvation, not to mention who might move in while the tribe was traveling. I picture a more sedentary culture, where tribes claim an area of fertile land and defend it from outsiders.

There could be some nomads, but few, traders who travel between tribal outposts, supporting a system of bartering (A enclave near the sea perhaps, might trade a nearby friendly(ish) tribe for grains or meat). The needs of the land they live in might even overcome cultural disagreements, and would certainly create lose alliances.

A tribe that outgrows the area that supports it has three real options: throw a portion of their growing number out into the wilds (to almost certain death); to scout for a new location, and 'evict' whoever lives there; or to become raiders, and prey on other tribes.

With that, a system of tribal interactions can emerge, and even more of a reason to be cautiously xenophobic: those traders who are bringing furs, meat or grain to barter for other goods could also be a scouting party, or the vanguard of a war party.

You can never be sure who your friends are, as there is little trust between tribes, but the need for trade overcomes fear and prevents tribes from totally isolating themselves.

Sorry for the rambling.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
loseth 04-06-07, 11:56 AM	According to the ECS, the Demon Wastes are home to about 270k humans, 170k orcs and 150k 'demons.' Now, I know rakshasas are technically outsiders, but I've always got the impression (from the ECS, Dragon Magazine and the Eberron novel dealing with them) that they are treated as a sort of fiend or demon in Eberron. We're also told that the rakshasas once dominated Khorvaire and Sarlona, implying reasonable numbers of them. Could much of the 'demon' population in the Wastes be rakshasas? If not, what demons do you think would be most numerous in the Demon Wastes?
MetaEidolon 04-06-07, 05:21 PM	I think that rakshasas probably account for a large majority of the fiendish population of the Wastes, keeping in mind that there are subraces within the category of rakshasa, and some of them I'm sure are more common than others. Furthermore, I came to the conclusion long ago that "fiends" as used in the context of Eberron, are not only rakshasas, but also demons, devils, and most likely, any number of other "evil" creatures (hags, elementals, etc) that could be considered "native" by Eberron standards, as well as a smaller minority of outsiders exiled from the 13 planes. I'm trying to write a plot that revolves around the epic struggles of the Lords of Dust myself, and am very interested in what others may say on this issue.
Yakman 04-10-07, 10:52 AM	I've always felt that the vast, vast, vast majority of those listed as "fiends" are fiend-touched/tiefling types with a bit of evil in their blood. Most of them (~90%) are basically human/orc/half-orc.
loseth 04-10-07, 11:32 AM	I've always felt that the vast, vast, vast majority of those listed as "fiends" are fiend-touched/tiefling types with a bit of evil in their blood. Most of them (~90%) are basically human/orc/half-orc. Hmm...that would definitely be more in keeping with the low power level of Khorvaire's surface.
Yakman 04-17-07, 10:19 AM	And really, it makes a lot more sense--would any humans/orc/half-orcs be able to survive if there really were that many true fiends running around? Nope. Plus, it offers more roleplaying possibilities, while still allowing for lots of bizarre monsters for teh PCs to get taken to school by.
lugnut71 04-20-07, 12:33 PM	Although I would argue the average human running around in the demon wastes is a lot tougher than someone running around in say Breland. Same for the orcs guarding the maze. Most likely if they weren't too busy killing each other in the Demon Wastes the rest of Khovaire would have a very dangerous enemy on its hands.
Yakman 04-20-07, 01:14 PM	Although I would argue the average human running around in the demon wastes is a lot tougher than someone running around in say Breland. Same for the orcs guarding the maze. Most likely if they weren't too busy killing each other in the Demon Wastes the rest of Khovaire would have a very dangerous enemy on its hands. I dunno about that. He's likely malnourished, sickened by the radiations/evilness, knows nothing other than primitive survival skills, and trusts no one outside his immediate clan. The Brelander might not be able to take him on man to man, but 100 brelish infantry would wipe the floor with 100 demon waster warriors.
lugnut71 04-22-07, 12:06 AM	True but then they get rabies. I picture it as more of a survival of the fittest. The demon wastes destroy the weak, while quickly elavating the strong. Your average Brelander is unlikely to ever see anything worse than a wolf. Your average Demon waster sees far worse. Of course they also probably have a life expectancy measured in hours too. Truth be told though I couldn't really tell you what an average demon waster would be. They are kind of left up to the DM while Brelanders are pretty well statted out. I guess over all I would stat them with PC classes more similair to the Seren's than NPC classes.
AkumaDaimyo 04-22-07, 07:44 AM	You average demon waster could be anything from a human, half-orc or full orc to a tiefling or half-fiend it sounds like.
taski 04-22-07, 06:48 PM	In my game, there are a few raptoran tribes in the Demon Wastes. They're a rakshasa experiment in humanoid/animal creatures, set loose. They're vicious cannibals, who collect orc tusks to weave into their armor.
Euangelion 04-22-07, 09:55 PM	First of all, there's some confusion even among those who have participated in writing the sourcebooks exactly what is meant by "demon" in "Demon Wastes." The random encounter table in Explorer's Handbook takes it literally, as in Tanaari. I asked Keith about this a long time ago, and he suggested seriously modifying the tables to include things like fiendish dire animals and the such instead of outsiders with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes. This raises the possibility that many of those so-called fiends could be fiendish animals (bearing in mind that all fiendish creatures have an intelligence of at least 3, making them fully sentient creatures, and thus can be included in population figures.) So you've got many options: standard rakshasas, zakyas (ECS), nazathrunes (MM3), ak-chalazar (MM3), tieflings, half-fiends, unholy scions (Heroes of Horror), and fiendish creatures. As for the fiendish creatures, why not humanoids and monstrous humanoids as well as animals? Years among the tainted Wastes may indeed produce a large number of fiendish humans (though the sakah feats from PGtE are meant to be the primary way of designating a Khyber-touched human). As for percentages of the total population of fiends, just go with a large number of the lower CR fiend-related creatures (80-85%), then raksashas of various kinds (13-19%), with 1-2% "other fiend" such as the night hags, devils and demons from Shavarath, and other evil outsiders from Mabar, Risia, Fernia, Lamannia, Xoriat, and maybe even Dol Quor. Very dangerous, but not necessarily overwhelming to the rest of Khorvaire. Edit: please don't flame my spelling too much, though being too lazy to look it up doesn't really sound like a good excuse after all.
Dragom 04-22-07, 10:16 PM	I kind of Figured Humans from the Demon Wastes most likely to be using non-metalic weapons in combat. Like maces that are chunks of wood with teeth and claws added to them and a heavy reliance on leather and hide for armour. Not very threatening at all even with 2 or 3 levels on them.
MetaEidolon 04-22-07, 11:12 PM	I've been thinking, and I figure that even though the DW are harsh and unforgiving, they aren't necessarily uninhabitable. That is to say, there are tribes living in the Wastes, and there has to be some form of food to support a tribe, and that means a small degree of arable soil, as well as a complex ecosystem. I picture them as being similar to the deserts of Athas or the Sahara (though rocky desert, not sand); mostly uninhabitable, but with oases where our tribes can develop and sustain a culture. Not the typical oasis, however, there are no palm fronds here, but just enough to sustain a harsh lifestyle. I imagine many of these havens have been built on, if not by the tribes that inhabit them, then by ruins from the age of demons. As for the nature of the population, I think that even half-fiends are rare among the humans and orcs. True fiends, especially rakasha however, have more important things on their agendas then to trouble the tribesmen. I've been starting to flesh out the power groups among the Lord of Dust, and have come to the conclusion that a very feudal (and mercurial) hierarchy of fealties characterizes the fiends, and I think that they would be very likely to congregate in the same ancient places (along with humans and orcs as slaves) like Ashtakala (tough I am sure there could be other, smaller and less obvious enclaves spread throughout the Demon Wastes).
Dragom 04-22-07, 11:30 PM	(along with humans and orcs as slaves) Slaves and/or Miscellanious Followers and/or Devoted Worshipers and/or Half-Feral Fanatics All kind of depends on which lord of dust I think. As for troubling the Tribes People... What else are the Tribes People for? Though Fiendish humans would be far more common then Half-Fiends. Those merely tainted in the womb by the evil ambiance of the Demon Wastes rather then those with mixed heritage I mean.
lulzapalooza 04-23-07, 12:04 AM	In my game there's a town composed mostly of Dretches in the Demon Waste they call Milltooth.
Yakman 04-23-07, 10:50 AM	I've always seen the demon wastes as a sort of Tibet (the real Tibet, mind you, not Lost Horizon-style BS), with demons replacing buddhas. There are some settlements, mostly based around demonic monasteries, with lots of nomads. Vast deserts, little water, life is rough and ready. But the people aren't neccesarily evil--they just live in an evil land. As I said before, most people are pretty normal--humans, orcs, half/orcs. Those who are 'demonic' are tieflings or less demonic--some horn nubs, weird eyes, etc..
lugnut71 04-24-07, 12:46 PM	I do agree most of the land will be empty, I pictured a more nomadic lifestyle for the majority of the population though. Although there are stationary ones (typically those with a powerful outsider, that is likely to be stationary). Most of them would be the typical xenophobic group, not really evil. Just that most strangers they are used to tend to be dangerous.
MetaEidolon 05-02-07, 02:10 PM	I do agree most of the land will be empty, I pictured a more nomadic lifestyle for the majority of the population though. Although there are stationary ones (typically those with a powerful outsider, that is likely to be stationary). Most of them would be the typical xenophobic group, not really evil. Just that most strangers they are used to tend to be dangerous. I disagree with the idea of a nomadic populace; with so few areas that could support a tribe, leaving could easily open the tribe to more serious danger, such as starvation, not to mention who might move in while the tribe was traveling. I picture a more sedentary culture, where tribes claim an area of fertile land and defend it from outsiders. There could be some nomads, but few, traders who travel between tribal outposts, supporting a system of bartering (A enclave near the sea perhaps, might trade a nearby friendly(ish) tribe for grains or meat). The needs of the land they live in might even overcome cultural disagreements, and would certainly create lose alliances. A tribe that outgrows the area that supports it has three real options: throw a portion of their growing number out into the wilds (to almost certain death); to scout for a new location, and 'evict' whoever lives there; or to become raiders, and prey on other tribes. With that, a system of tribal interactions can emerge, and even more of a reason to be cautiously xenophobic: those traders who are bringing furs, meat or grain to barter for other goods could also be a scouting party, or the vanguard of a war party. You can never be sure who your friends are, as there is little trust between tribes, but the need for trade overcomes fear and prevents tribes from totally isolating themselves. Sorry for the rambling.