Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 12:42 PM	I've been wondering about this since the setting was released. The Marches are between Droaam/Breland and the sea. The sea doesn't really count as a territory, so what do the Shadow Marches "march?" Or did the designers just mix up "march" and "marsh?"
GimliGloinson 07-05-07, 02:12 PM	The Shadow Marches border Droaam (to the east) and The Eldeen reaches (to the north). Breland is on the eastern side of Droaam. There is an arm of the Demon Wastes that comes near the Marches, but does not in fact abut it. As far as the use of the word 'march,' I take it to mean the frontier or furthest borders of Khorvaire itself. For what it's worth... I'd like to see more love for the Marches, myself. I love the area. My group is about to enter for probably a month-long run (in-game time) of dealing with the denizens, both sentient and not. Should be fun.
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 02:50 PM	The Shadow Marches border Droaam (to the east) and The Eldeen reaches (to the north). I did think of that, but since the two realms already share a long border, it didn't seem likely. One thing that puzzles me is the plural "Marches." It could just be a region that was once rules by a bunch of margraves in the past, but this too seems unlikely, since it was isolated from Galifar before House Sivis discovered it.
GimliGloinson 07-05-07, 03:11 PM	Interesting thought. Maybe the rulership was in name only? Sort of "Ok, Todd, you rule Patch A, while Kevin rules Patch B." Like giving out titles without having to worry about them raising their own militia and so on. I do think it more likely that someone decided 'march' was another term for 'marsh' and used it to be different. Similar things happen all the time when someone assumes they know the definition of a term, but are actually thinking of something else entirely.
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 04:09 PM	I do think it more likely that someone decided 'march' was another term for 'marsh' and used it to be different. Similar things happen all the time when someone assumes they know the definition of a term, but are actually thinking of something else entirely. This is the most likely option, I agree. Unless someone "in-the-know" can explain how they'd be actual marches, I'll be translating them as Varjosuot (Finnish for Shadow Marshes).
OgreBane99 07-05-07, 04:11 PM	March(es): Mark or march (or various plural forms of these words) are derived from the Frankish word marka ("boundary") and refer to an area along a border, e.g. the borderland between England and Scotland, similar to a frontier. Also think the Silver Marches in Forgotten Realms.
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 04:25 PM	I know quite well what a march is, thank you very much, I just don't see how that meaning applies to the Shadow Marches.
Shady314 07-05-07, 06:05 PM	I've been wondering about this since the setting was released. The Marches are between Droaam/Breland and the sea. The sea doesn't really count as a territory, so what do the Shadow Marches "march?" Or did the designers just mix up "march" and "marsh?" Perhaps what is now the Shadow Marches is not what it was when it first got it's name.
GrimAlchemist 07-05-07, 06:57 PM	Could be the name hearkening back to the Dhakaani empire, where the goblinoids ruled nearly all of Khorvaire, except for the orcs, who used the terrain and their druidic magic to their advantage against the would-be conquerors. That would make the marches the borders of the Dhakaani empire.
Shady314 07-05-07, 07:42 PM	Could be the name hearkening back to the Dhakaani empire, where the goblinoids ruled nearly all of Khorvaire, except for the orcs, who used the terrain and their druidic magic to their advantage against the would-be conquerors. That would make the marches the borders of the Dhakaani empire. That's what I was thinking. Or Galifar.
Syltorian 07-06-07, 06:21 AM	Could be the name hearkening back to the Dhakaani empire, where the goblinoids ruled nearly all of Khorvaire, except for the orcs, who used the terrain and their druidic magic to their advantage against the would-be conquerors. That would make the marches the borders of the Dhakaani empire. Great idea! My own first reaction was similar to one already mentioned, that it could be a corruption of "marsh", which is what most of these lands are. It doesn't need to be a designer error, either. Perhaps at some point a scribe who has never seen the land assumed it must mean "march", corrected it, and it stuck. Sivis would be delighted to tell you the history of that error. ;)
okaynowa 07-06-07, 09:13 AM	More philological fun: "margin" also comes from the same root as "march." The Shadow Marshes/Margins become the Shadow Marches? One could certainly say that the orcs are a marginal people in Khorvaire... Hm, there's the March orcs in the southwest, the Demon Waste guardian orcs of the northwest, the Mror Hold orc tribe in the northeast... All that's missing is an orcish group in the southeastern corner, and they really would be the border people of Khorvaire. Fun angle for a "lost tribe" adventure.
DBlizzard 07-07-07, 06:58 AM	Perhaps what is now the Shadow Marches is not what it was when it first got it's name. That was my thought. Maybe it's something carried from as far back as the Age of Demons. Geography might have been quite different then. Who knows what ruins might have fallen into the sea? In addition, if you assume the name has passed forward, perhaps is an artifact of translation from goblinoid languages. March was the closest translation for a much more accurate word in goblin.
Hellcow 07-07-07, 09:29 AM	As one of the designers, I'm well aware of the difference between "March" and "Marsh". The definition I was playing from was "The border or boundary of a country or an area of land; a frontier." And in fact, the Shadow Marches have bordered two significant nations over the course of history. Originally, they were on the fringes of the empire of Dhakaan; the Dhakaani never conquered the entire region, but they did make sorties and establish outposts in the area. So it was certainly one of the frontiers of the region. That's where the name first came into use, but it took on new meaning when Galifar came to be - or even old Breland. Remember that Droaam wasn't a recognized region until recently. Despite the fact that it had monstrous inhabitants, it was considered to be an especially hostile piece of Breland; the crown didn't recognize the monstrous warlords, and knights and soldiers would occasionally make sorties into this region. The Shadow Marches, on the other hand, had a more significant human population, and was largely left alone - not that the Brelish had no interest in fully claiming it, but as we all know, Breland's already far larger than required by its population, and they'd have to get through the savage lands (Droaam) first. So there wasn't a great push to accomplish this. So, given that Droaam wasn't a named territory but rather part of Breland, during the age of Galifar the Shadow Marches were the frontier of Breland; prior to that, they were an untamed border of the empire of Dhakaan. While it's always possible to make a mistake, as a professional writer I do at least know the difference between "March" and "Marsh" - Hmph! ;)Though in this instance, the Marches are especially marshy marches!
Hellcow 07-07-07, 09:38 AM	Hm, there's the March orcs in the southwest, the Demon Waste guardian orcs of the northwest, the Mror Hold orc tribe in the northeast... All that's missing is an orcish group in the southeastern corner, and they really would be the border people of Khorvaire. Fun angle for a "lost tribe" adventure. Certainly. If I were to do something with it, I'd suggest that they were driven underground by the arrival of the Valaes Tairn (the first time), and this change in the balance of power preceeded the first conflict between goblinoid and elf. But what's become of them over the course of thousands of years in Khyber? (This also gives room for a group of orcs with a justified reason for hatred of elves - which could manifest in aggression against modern Valenar!)
DragoonDarkfire 07-07-07, 01:06 PM	Half-feind Orc Warlocks that come out of hiding to fight Valnear and they must call in the PC's to assist them as asking for help from other countries would be a sign of weakness?
Darakhoranon 07-07-07, 02:35 PM	But how do you ask a bunch of NON-VALENAR to help you out without losing your last shred of self-respect? And if rumors about this whole affair got around... On topic: Yeah, the Shadow Marches as an ancient name for the region would explain the "marches", even if they are - as the Infernal Bovine himself said - especially marshy marches...
The White Sorcerer 07-07-07, 04:06 PM	I was kind of hoping for the "March?Marsh" scenario, since now I'll have to think of an appropriate Finnish translation for Marches. Any Finnish Eberronians/Eberronites, please help!
Hellcow 07-07-07, 06:19 PM	But how do you ask a bunch of NON-VALENAR to help you out without losing your last shred of self-respect? Honestly? It would be extremely out of character for the Valenar to even think about asking for help for at least a decade, unless they were literally in danger of being destroyed to the last individual (at which point they'd be more likely to pack up and go back to Aerenal, which is after all what their ancestors did). It comes back to the fact that the Valenar rarely do things in a hurry. As noted in Forge of War, there's a good chance that the Valaes Tairn claimed the territory because they were HOPING someone would come and try and take it from them. Given their long view on things, unless events go VERY quickly, they won't panic just because the first few months of battle go poorly; as long as the fight is continuing, they'd be happy to keeping it going for decades. They want a good fight on something that passes for home ground far more than they actually care about owning a kingdom. My point was that this gives DMs who like the "orcs and elves who hate each other" stereotype something to play with. Personally, I'd make the orcs creepier than their counterparts, and play up the "touched by Khyber" aspect of things (essentially, an orcish twist on the Umbragen). But that doesn't necessarily mean they'd sweep in as such a terrifying force that they'd threaten the Valenar with utter destruction - rather that they'd actually pose a significant and unexpected threat. And depending how dedicated they were to pursuing this ancient feud, they might even pursue Valenar PCs (though this would presume that they've actually spread out from beyond the corner of the world). The more I think about it, the more I'd be likely to make these the really scary orcs. The orcs of the Demon Wastes are technically serving a noble cause. The orcs of the Mror Holds are essentially neutral - they feud with the dwarves over territory, but there's no underlying spiritual or moral direction; they're no different than the dwarves themselves, they've just been on the losing side. The orcs of the Shadow Marches cover the full spectrum from vigilant Gatekeepers to Khyber cultists, with player of ambivalents in the middle. So saying making the tribe of the fourth corner the opposite of the Ghaash'kala - a tribe that has embraced the darkness instead of turned to the light - would allow for the full spectrum across the continent. Of course, they've been driven to this by the actions of the Valaes Tairn, so there's lots of blame to go around; but essentially you have the race driving to darkness by the need for survival and the desire for revenge. So who knows - maybe you'll see something in the future. BUT: while i'm saying that I wouldn't see the VALENAR asking for help, what I COULD see is the other people of Valenar asking for help. House Lyrandar. The humans of the land. If a true threat arises, the Valaes Tairn are not going to devote a lot of resources or place their own lives at great risk to protect their holdings. They're experts at mobile, commando warfare and of living off the land. They're happy to protect their subjects from little threats, hunting beasts or tracking down bandits for sport. But if a REALLY threat comes along, they'll go back to doing what they do best, and that's NOT defending serfs. So if you want to shake things up, I'd have the Valenar go into full war mode and NOT ask for help - and the issue is whether the PCs will try to help the peasants left hung out to dry. Perhaps they'll earn themsleves a fiefdom in Valenar - or even, in the long run (depending on their political affiliantion) claim back a piece of land for New Cyre.
okaynowa 07-10-07, 11:57 AM	Twisted uber-orcs who erupt out of the very ground and come gunning specifically for the elves? Monstrous foes sprouting underhoof and challenging the war bands in a take-no-prisoners guerilla campaign of reclamation? Sounds suspiciously like a Valaes Tairn version of "our prayers have been answered."
DragoonDarkfire 07-10-07, 01:59 PM	Twisted uber-orcs who erupt out of the very ground and come gunning specifically for the elves? Monstrous foes sprouting underhoof and challenging the war bands in a take-no-prisoners guerilla campaign of reclamation? Sounds suspiciously like a Valaes Tairn version of "our prayers have been answered." Until they all start getting their asses whooped. Dieing horrible deaths isn't gonna honor anyones ancestor.
okaynowa 07-10-07, 02:19 PM	Until they all start getting their asses whooped.Anybody who's taken by surprise, especially by unexpected tactics, could suffer significant initial losses. I wouldn't expect the Valenar to keep taking losses for long, though. And who has the advantage in this theoretical struggle is really dependent on what the DM wants to achieve-- close match, stalemate, dire threat? We're speculating about an unwritten, unstatted group.
DragoonDarkfire 07-10-07, 02:37 PM	Well if it was me I'd have the Valnear getting their asses handed to them. Thus making it a "PC's only" kinda job.
Hellcow 07-10-07, 03:16 PM	Well if it was me I'd have the Valnear getting their asses handed to them. Thus making it a "PC's only" kinda job. While I'd make it an extremely evenly matched battle, one that could conceivably stretch on for years... though with a steady amount of collateral damage and loss of human life. To me, the issue isn't "The PCs save the Valenar from the Khyber Orcs." Among other things, are the PCs going to WANT to do this? The Valenar aren't exactly a stabilizing force in the world. Regardless of whether the PCs are capable of it, what's their motivation? Thus, as I said, I see the players being the only ones who can save the FARMERS of Valenar. Or who can help House Lyrandar. Or whatever. When the war occurs, it is the answer the the prayers of the Valenar. They want a bitter guerrilla war, and this gives it to them. They don't care about the civilian infrastructure, so they abandon it. The PCs are the only ones who can save the INNOCENTS of Valenar from the conflict. The question then is what happens once the dust has settled. The people of Valenar have been willing to accept elven rule because the elves haven't treated them any worse than the Cyrans did before (among other reasons). If the elves DO leave them to die while fighting their orc war, the commoners may not welcome back the elves with open arms. Perhaps the dragonmarked houses will fill the void and create a corporate state - or perhaps the PCs will claim the throne. But I'd certainly use this as an opportunity for a long-term conflict and to create a new dangerous territory, with some time passing before its clear who the aggressors are and even then being unclear as to how to fight them; I wouldn't try to push it to a swift conclusion.
Darakhoranon 07-11-07, 08:09 AM	Hm, maybe we could also add a few rumors of one or two (corrupted) dragons commanding the fiendish orcs - just to make things more interesting... Those crazy Draleus Tairn might swallow the hook, travel from Aerenal to Valenar and manage to get themselves killed... Actually, having hordes of evil orcs threaten Valenar would have quite a disruptive effect on the whole of Khorvaire (power vacuum, spreading conflict, the elves of Valenar abandoning their land and going on a rampage across the continent - when they´re not busy fighting "really scary orcs"...). Sounds like good times...:schemes:
Hellcow 07-11-07, 11:17 AM	...the elves of Valenar abandoning their land and going on a rampage across the continent... I'm not sure I see the logic here. Building on what I've said and what FoW says, the point is that the Valenar want to emulate the deeds of their ancestors. Their ancestors fought a guerilla war against a superior foe, and that war lasted for centuries. So first, many believe that the reason they've claimed Valenar is to create a killing ground. One of the strengths their ancestors had in their struggle was knowledge of the terrain; the giants were urban creatures, while the elves (at least the ancestors of the Tairnadal) were comfortable in the wild. This is one of the reasons the common Tairnadal soldier is a ranger, not a fighter; they are skilled in battle, but they also place value on stealth, sharp senses, and being able to live off of the land. So IMO the elves have been spending the last few decades becoming familiar with the land of Valenar, learning its chokepoints and hazards, finding tools they can use when they are ultimately attacked - whether it's by disturbing orcs or whether they finally push Karrnath too far. But when such a battle occurs, I don't see them as being in a hurry to bring it to a close... to be driven to desperate measures or crazed charges across the country. Again, their ancestors' war against the giants took centuries. They don't actually care much about the land of Valenar itself, so they don't NEED to make great sacrifices to defend cities or villages; as I said, that's where PCs may have to come in, to save the common people. And if they leave Valenar, they are leaving the killing zone they've been building up for decades. Now they'll have to face an enemy on HIS home ground, instead of drawing the enemy to fight them in their territory. Their movements may be easier to track. And what's the gain? They don't especially want to kill civilians. If there's a challenging enemy active in their own home territory, why leave that wonderful war for a random rampage? I think a Valenar war - whether fought against human or orc - would last a minimum of a decade, and would be more likely to be lost through attrition than because of a clear victory. The elves just aren't in a hurry: as long as they have the chance to fight, and to fight a war that closely emulates the wars of their ancestors (and a long struggle against a large and efficient invading force is actually closer to this than their mercenary work in the Last War), they could be happy keeping it going for centuries. They want the struggle more than they want land or victory; if worst comes to the worst, they can always flee to Valenar. And before someone says "Flee? Death before dishonor!" - actually, very few Valenar believe anything like this. It's all about patron ancestor, and a FEW of the old heroes followed this path. But remember that in the old war, the elves were outgunned on a massive scale. Cunning and strategy were the keys to victory, and glory was to be had in victory over a superior foe, regardless of how that victory was acheived (as backed up by FoW). The Valenar pride themselves on their skill at arms, but they aren't fools. They KNOW that they can't replace their losses as easily as their enemies can (especially when fighting short-lived races like orcs or goblins). They're certainly willing to retreat when a situation calls for it, regrouping and striking when surprise and the tactical advantage is on their side. The important thing is that the Valenar are dedicated to WAR - but there's far more to war than the ability of a single soldier on the battlefield. Outmanuevering an enemy, ambushing, starving a foe, wearing down morale - the Valenar leaders understand long-term tactics, not simply how to use a scimitar. And like their ancestors, they are willing to play a long game if they see an eventual tactical advantage. So I do see this as completely changing the dynamics of VALENAR. I see it being a case where the civilian population of Valenar will be in desperate need of aid, and where Darguun, Karrnath, the Plains, and Q'barra will need to worry about spillover and long-term results. If it's Karrnath who invades instead of Khyber Orcs, the other Five Nations are going to have to consider if there is an advantage to striking Karrnath while it's weak. But I don't see the Valenar pushing for a quick finish, or really for a foe to be able to easily vanquish them in a short period of time (because they WON'T stand and fight a losing battle, and they are masters of Survival). And I don't really see the Valenar abandoning what for them is a desirable war to randomly assault other nations. Essentially, I don't see "rampage" as fitting the style of the Valenar. Their revered ancestors weren't actually conquerors or marauders; they were fighting a just war against a powerful foe. The Valenar may raid to keep their skills sharp and to try to provoke an invasion of Valenar - but once they've achieved this, I don't see them running out on it, unless they retreat to Aerenal. But, of course, do what makes a good story in your game. ;)
Yakman 07-11-07, 12:51 PM	That makes them sound an awfully alot like: http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/05/300px-Predator_1.jpg
Mula 07-13-07, 09:34 PM	I was kind of hoping for the "March?Marsh" scenario, since now I'll have to think of an appropriate Finnish translation for Marches. Any Finnish Eberronians/Eberronites, please help! I just used "Varjomaat". The biggest translation problem for me was the word "Ashbound". I think I decided on something like "Saarniveljet" (or something close). Also, I Finnishized country names that don't have a specific meaning in English. Thrane became "Traani", Cyre was "Syyri", Breland was "Brelanti", and so on. :) Edit: And the Order of the Emerald Claw... never came up with anything great for it. It's impossible to come up with something cool sounding that's very close to the original name. "Smaragdikynnen ritarikunta" sounds ridiculous.
mfloyd3 07-22-07, 10:21 PM	Re: Why they are called the Shadow Marches, could it just be that the place got their name after the Daelkyr invasion? The "Shadow" in question would be either Xoriat or the regions of Khyber in which the Daelkyr were imprisoned. I grant you it's a little odd to call something a March when it "borders" an extradimensional space, but it does make it kind of cool. Apologies if someone already suggested this and I missed it.
eehamburg 07-24-07, 12:59 PM	I just used "Varjomaat". The biggest translation problem for me was the word "Ashbound". I think I decided on something like "Saarniveljet" (or something close). Also, I Finnishized country names that don't have a specific meaning in English. Thrane became "Traani", Cyre was "Syyri", Breland was "Brelanti", and so on. :) Edit: And the Order of the Emerald Claw... never came up with anything great for it. It's impossible to come up with something cool sounding that's very close to the original name. "Smaragdikynnen ritarikunta" sounds ridiculous. Any other names and/or translations that you have would be great if you can post them.
eehamburg 07-24-07, 01:00 PM	Re: Why they are called the Shadow Marches, could it just be that the place got their name after the Daelkyr invasion? The "Shadow" in question would be either Xoriat or the regions of Khyber in which the Daelkyr were imprisoned. I grant you it's a little odd to call something a March when it "borders" an extradimensional space, but it does make it kind of cool. Apologies if someone already suggested this and I missed it. Ya know ... this is actually not a bad idea ... it kind of works when you have a place that borders all of the different planes.
The White Sorcerer 07-24-07, 04:34 PM	"Smaragdikynnen ritarikunta" sounds ridiculous. Hmm... You're right, it kind of does. "Kynsi" (which can also mean just a regular finger-/toenail) just doesn't have the menace of "claw." That and "smaragdi" is a stupid word. I've translated some of the races. Changeling=Vaihdokas (why reinvent the wheel?) Warforged=Sotataottu (which sounds ridicilous, damn WotC for giving the race an adverb for a name) Shifter=...I've pretty much given up on this one.
Mula 08-11-07, 08:28 PM	Changeling and shifter were problematic because the translations I used were very similar: "vaihdokas" and "vaihtuja". Shifter is hard, yeah. I think I used something close to "sotaluotu" for warforged. Other names were, Wardens of the Wood = Kaarnakaitsijat Dragonmarked Houses = [Lohi]Käärmekuvioidut huoneet Dragonmarked = [Käärme]Kuvioitu The Sovereign Host = Suvereeni seurue The Dark Six = Kuuden pimeys (this one was difficult) The Lords of Dust = Tomun herrat (actually sounds better in Finnish) The Dreaming Dark = Uinuva pimeys The Dragon Below = Manalan (lohi)käärme The Mror Holds = Mrorin holvit The Mournland = Surumaa Lhazaar Principalities = Lhazaarin ruhtinaskunnat Eldeen Reaches = Aarnimaat (while "eldeen" isn't a real word, I think it clearly alludes to something old and ancient) The Demon Wastes = Demonikorpi