Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Artector 12-16-06, 08:48 PM	Probably a beaten horse.... But couldn't Vol use the Clone spell to get a fresh body? One that isn't a lich's? I haven't done that much reaserch, but it seems possible.
Belabras 12-16-06, 09:06 PM	She could use a Wish spell or get a cleric to Ressurect her too. We can only assume she hasn't wanted to so far.
Sphere 12-16-06, 09:20 PM	Probably a beaten horse.... But couldn't Vol use the Clone spell to get a fresh body? One that isn't a lich's? I haven't done that much reaserch, but it seems possible. Maybe, she would need a piece of non-rotten flesh from her living body before she was a lich. But the fact that she is still a lich would mean that any such pieces of flesh are long gone or not going to be used.
Artector 12-16-06, 09:35 PM	Maybe, she would need a piece of non-rotten flesh from her living body before she was a lich. But the fact that she is still a lich would mean that any such pieces of flesh are long gone or not going to be used. That's what I thought. Chances are its possible for her to get a piece of her old flesh. Limited Wish could probably do it. I need to look into the motivations of Vol more...
SSj3goblin 12-17-06, 12:04 AM	A wish should do it. But becoming mortal again would make her much more vulnerable. I think she's probably more interested in reviving her house by tracking her long time descendants who manifest the mark than by coming back to life a creating more of them (although it would probably be more effective).
jonci 12-17-06, 05:23 AM	I've thought about making a campaign that eventually leads to the party having to prevent (or maybe help) Vol from using a piece of the gate that linked Eberron and Dal Quor, during the Age of Giants, to restore her body and the Mark of Death's bloodline. It is a bit more creative than just using Wish.
Shady314 12-17-06, 07:53 AM	Personally I don't think a "simple" Wish, True Res or Miracle could do it. The soul entrapping effects of Dollurh prevent her from simply being ressurected. She's been dead for a loooong time. Maybe it could work but she isn't willing to take that chance? As for a spell recreating a piece of her ancient flesh that's really a DM call and I guess the Eberron DM in the form of Keith Baker thought not when he wrote her. When you ask for wish to do something it isn't specifically able to do it will fulfill it in the simplest way possible. If she asks for a piece of her flesh it should lop off a small piece of her. If she asks for an ancient piece of her living flesh it should give her ash. Or create flesh that just doesn't cut it and clone fizzles infuriating her. If she wishes to be alive she is for maybe a half second before she dies of old age. Miracle should oddly suffer the same problem even though it's usually reliable. I think the most interesting problem to make it be is that her soul is in some way important to the whole equation. Even if she could go back in time and grab a piece of herself it may not work for unknown reasons. Or maybe the key IS that she needs to go back in time to get a piece. There's a fun adventure. Or maybe it really is as simple as her casting Wish but once she turns alive the Undying or Dragons will more easily detect her somehow and then she's screwed.
Syltorian 12-17-06, 09:09 AM	The soul entrapping effects of Dollurh prevent her from simply being ressurected. She's been dead for a loooong time. But her soul never went to Dollurh in all that time: when she died, it was transferred to her phylactery, then back to her body. If she were to somehow die, the entrapping/memory erasing effect of Dollurh would begin at day one. The spell-rules for resurrection, even true resurrection, seem to indicate that she has been dead for too long for that, though. Naturally, there might be other problems. There might be some powerful Inevitables in Dollurh who are quite likely going to do their utmost to keep her dead once they get a grip on her. After all, to these machines, so concerned about having people die and stay dead according to cosmic law, Erandis must be the prime offender (perhaps along with the Undying Court). Erandis might also believe in parts of her own religion. Just because she manipulates other faithful doesn't mean she doesn't hold the traditional and age-old beliefs of her own family. What does she think the gods, who invented death, would do once she fails to cheat it - even if that failure lasts only for a few minutes? Wouldn't they use all their might to finally be rid of the Queen of Undeath? There are other reasons as to why she might not have done this resurrection yet. Who can she trust? Did the Undying Court place a curse on her line to prevent just that? Are there enemies too close who could take advantage of her weakened, living state - she'll become vulnerable to poison, mind-affecting effects, disease, negative energy, her own undead... Maybe she is just scared of being alive again. It was not exactly a pleasant time for her back in her youth. She might not want to go back to that. As for clone: If I understand the spell correctly (and assuming she gets the required piece of skin from her living self), the clone is of an age with the person it comes from. For Erandis, that is several thousands of years, well beyond the lifespan even of an elf. She'd die of old age in instants: clone, unlike Lich, does not allow you to extend your lifespan. Naturally, there is always the Eldritch Machine if you want a living Queen of the Dead for your campaign. Maybe that is what she needs anyone with the Mark of Death heritage: blood of that person might be the essential component.
Just another user 12-17-06, 10:46 AM	Let's suppose, for discussion's sake, that it would be possible for Vol to be brought to life (via Wish, Miracle or Resurrection). Admitted it is possible, why she should? As a lich she is virtually immortal, she don't have to worry about eating, sleeping or even breathing, or diyng of old age, if brought back to life she could be killed and this time for good, she dealing with dragons and undying counciliors, she need all the advantages she can get, maybe she have a plan to be resurrected but she keep it ready for the right moment when it can use it with the greater gain for her. Beside she is the leader of a cult that someway worship undeath, what you think would be the reactions of hers folowers if they found out that she renunced to it to be alive again? would not looks like she given up the good fight aganst the evil Hosts? about if it is possible, I doubt it, to bring her back you need Miracle, even true resurrection would not work (limit of 10 years for caster level from death, unles you find a 100th+ level cleric... :rolleyes: ) and Wish is a huge risk when you use it for something outside its "safe zone", but you need a 18th level cleric to cast miracle and those are not easy to find, IIRC to only one mentioned is Jaela of the Silver Flame, good luck persuading her in using Miracle on Vol, theorically the artificer route could be a possibilty but personally I would never let an artificer create a scroll of Miracle, especially for the extra powerful mode of the spell. Beside I think you need at least a 16th level artificer to even try and even those are quite rare.
CannibalSmith 12-17-06, 02:12 PM	What you people overlook is that she might still have a healthy body. Being a lich does not mean being a rotten corpse. She could have been casting Gentle Repose all these years. But there is a picture of her on the cover of Magic of Eberron. :(
Belabras 12-17-06, 03:40 PM	What would the lifespan of a Half-dragon Elf actually be anyway?
CannibalSmith 12-17-06, 03:54 PM	Vol becomes a lich in -2600. That's ~3600 years ago. Draconomicon says that green dragons (Vol is half-green-dragon) live 2300 years.
Sphere 12-17-06, 04:09 PM	As for clone: If I understand the spell correctly (and assuming she gets the required piece of skin from her living self), the clone is of an age with the person it comes from. For Erandis, that is several thousands of years, well beyond the lifespan even of an elf. She'd die of old age in instants: clone, unlike Lich, does not allow you to extend your lifespan. As I understand it, clone creates a body with all the physical attributes of the creature at the time it was cloned, one level lower. The body then receives the soul of the creature when they die, unless they died of natural causes at the end of their lifespan. I don't believe lichdom counts as dying due to natural causes. ;) What would the lifespan of a Half-dragon Elf actually be anyway? Less than 3,000 years that is for sure. I would wager somewhere between 1000 and 2000. At least according to the optional old age rules in the Draconomicon.
CannibalSmith 12-17-06, 04:23 PM	Another idea: why doesn't she polymorph into her living self?
Vikjunk 12-17-06, 04:49 PM	Maybe, she would need a piece of non-rotten flesh from her living body before she was a lich. But the fact that she is still a lich would mean that any such pieces of flesh are long gone or not going to be used. You could use Primal Essence from Complete Mage to get past the need for the flesh. It's one of the reasons I love the stuff. It gets past the need to find and carry around other material components other then the Primal Essence, but it tends to be a little more expensive then normal components though.
Artector 12-17-06, 04:55 PM	My thought about Vol cloning herself would be at max is the age she was at Undeath, thus she could still live for a while longer before her Death (or re-Undeath) occurs.
Syltorian 12-17-06, 05:41 PM	As I understand it, clone creates a body with all the physical attributes of the creature at the time it was cloned, one level lower. The body then receives the soul of the creature when they die, unless they died of natural causes at the end of their lifespan. I don't believe lichdom counts as dying due to natural causes. ;) I concede that it doesn't say "unless you would have died of old age in the meantime", so your understanding is closer to the letter of the RAW than mine is. But does this mean - in theory, and forgive me if the example would be somewhat absurd in practice - that, if you somehow manage keep your teenage clone from rotting, and commit suicide instants before dying of old age, you could live for many times your natural lifespan? About the age of half-dragons... I don't think it has been detailed anywhere; not in any of my books, at any rate. It might be in Races of the Dragon, but I don't own that one. It would be nice if someone with access to that book could check whether there is such information in there. Hm. I wonder if Vol is aware of the Thief of Life prestige class. Maybe she can retroactively sap life away from unwitting followers or some prisoners...
Edymnion 12-17-06, 06:47 PM	Not to mention that things like ressurection typically only work within one day per caster level of being dead. Good luck finding someone with a high enough level to ressurect Erandis. Even a Wish or Miracle is going to be strained to replicate a spell with a caster level of well over a million. Nah, it would require an... ELDRITCH MACHINE! :D
Sphere 12-17-06, 06:51 PM	But does this mean - in theory, and forgive me if the example would be somewhat absurd in practice - that, if you somehow manage keep your teenage clone from rotting, and commit suicide instants before dying of old age, you could live for many times your natural lifespan? That depends on your DM's interpretation of "The Original". All I know: Lichdome is not a natural death. It is possible to clone someone who is dead already if they didn't die to natural causes, and you have a piece of their flesh from when they were living. Dead creatures don't age, though they can rot and decompose. Some DM's Rule that you come back at the age of your death, others would rule you come back at the age when you took your flesh sample.
Just another user 12-17-06, 07:54 PM	I concede that it doesn't say "unless you would have died of old age in the meantime", so your understanding is closer to the letter of the RAW than mine is. But does this mean - in theory, and forgive me if the example would be somewhat absurd in practice - that, if you somehow manage keep your teenage clone from rotting, and commit suicide instants before dying of old age, you could live for many times your natural lifespan? that was to going my answer ----------------------------------------------- Yes, but your memory (or better the clone memory) would be that of you as a teenager, he would not remember everything that happened in the meanwhile. One could say that is a little price to pay, but for Vol that would be a big problem, think to all the thousand of years of plots she had in the works, someone still waiting to come to maturation, that probably only her know because she don't trust to put them on paper. ---------------------------------------------- But then I got to check the spell, and I CAN'T BELIEVE IT, they messed up even this, it is even possible!? There is a single spell in the PHB that 3.5 didn' ****ed up? Or they turned all the interesting spell in total banalities? To answer your question, yes, by 3.5 for 1000 gp at shot and a loss of a level you can have the immortality and practically eternal youth, why anybody would ever want to become a lich in 3.5rd edition is really beyond my comprension. unless I'm missing something, of course.
Syltorian 12-18-06, 04:03 AM	that was to going my answer ----------------------------------------------- Yes, but your memory (or better the clone memory) would be that of you as a teenager, he would not remember everything that happened in the meanwhile. One could say that is a little price to pay, but for Vol that would be a big problem, think to all the thousand of years of plots she had in the works, someone still waiting to come to maturation, that probably only her know because she don't trust to put them on paper. ---------------------------------------------- I had a similar answer written up myself when I replied the first time. Vol would not only have lost her memories of plots and everything that happened between her House's destruction and now (including Kaius' vampiric nature), she would conceivably have returned to become an apprentice wizard, not an archmage with tens of thousands of years of experience. Then I double checked the spell and realised, like you, that clone lets you keep your memories. I had wondered whether I had become mad for thinking it would not, or was confusing with something else. Thanks for restoring my faith in myself by pointing out that this is how Clone did work in 3.0. Okay, should that ever come up in my campaign, this is going to be houseruled back to 3.0. To answer your question, yes, by 3.5 for 1000 gp at shot and a loss of a level you can have the immortality and practically eternal youth, why anybody would ever want to become a lich in 3.5rd edition is really beyond my comprension. unless I'm missing something, of course. Okay, thanks. Yeah, lich is an odd choice with what alternatives there are. At least Erandis has the excuse of not having become one of her own volution. Mommy made her one... Some DM's Rule that you come back at the age of your death, others would rule you come back at the age when you took your flesh sample. Both would be valid, as I far as I can see, although the latter one might be more defensible by the wording of the spell. Personally, I would see it as the "age of the soul" that counts, much like the timeless body ability; though the spell description does not actually say this.
Just another user 12-18-06, 11:09 AM	In Eberron it make a modicum of sense because wizards able to cast Clone are rare the only two I can think of are a lich that almost nobody know about and a certain Mordain that I personally would never trust with a piece of my flesh. But let's take a more magic rich setting like the FR, how is possible that a high level wizard didn't ever put on a cloning service, make pay your client a fixed quota (let's say 5000 gp, plus a yearly amount for the space rent and custody of your clone, all you neeed to do is cast a 8th level spell,you don't even have to expend XP, you can cast it every day if you need, which noble, or every ine else with the money, would not make a clone of himself at 18 years and then cut his own throat when around 50th-60 to start anew?
Edymnion 12-18-06, 03:30 PM	would not make a clone of himself at 18 years and then cut his own throat when around 50th-60 to start anew?I would definately rule that you come back at a level lower and with the memories of when you donated the tissue. So if you did that, you would be losing 30 year's of experience. I would also houserule that you have to actually be level 2 before you can be cloned, and explain it away as being something along the lines of "your life force is not strong enough" as to why a lvl 1 couldn't do it.
Nuclear_Buddha 12-20-06, 02:14 PM	I prefer to sidestep the whole issue with a completely different variant that goes something like this: Erandis doesn't want to live again. She hates the living. She hates life. She hates dragons, she hates elves. She hates dragonmarks. Most of all, she hates herself. Why shouldn't she? She's a monster, a freakish experiment by her arguably mad mother and her manipulating father. The kindest thing they could've done was strangle her at birth, rather than expose her to the fear and loathing of the entire world. And when merciful death and the sweet forgetfulness of Dolurrh finally did approach, what did her mother do but snatch that sole release away from her. How many times has she tried to kill herself? Beyond counting. Always she returns to her hideous unlife. Mother dearest neglected to reveal the form of her phylactery. Perhaps it is the thinning bloodline of her family, or perhaps it will never be found. One thing is certain: that one day, everyone will know her suffering. In the variant, these questions don't matter because the surprise twist is that the published stuff is all a lie covering the real Erandis Vol. The religion is a double-sham; the most secret agenda is exterminate any vestige of the line of Vol completely. Even if Erandis still can't find rest, she can have her revenge on those who spawned her by destroying their legacy. Or maybe it's more apocalyptic than that and she wants everyone to feel the pain she has. This has a couple advantages: 1. You don't have to answer questions like "Why doesn't she raise herself?" or "What's her phylactery?" 2. Players who think they know the secret of the Blood of Vol are in for a surprise. 3. She can be thwarted, but not truly defeated (since she can't be completely killed). As a side note, my Erandis Vol looks like this (http://nuclearbuddha.blogspot.com/2006/11/erandis-vol.html).
CannibalSmith 12-20-06, 02:30 PM	*applause* You win this thread. :) And the link is 403 forbidden.
Nuclear_Buddha 12-20-06, 03:22 PM	Should be fixed now. In the above version, I see Erandis spending most of her days wandering aimlessly through the halls of her frozen citadel. Her faithful servants worship her from afar, for to cross her path during her wanderings is horrible death. I see them trying very cautiously to care for her so her garments don't get too ragged or her hair too tangled. Through trial and error they've discovered certain courses of action than seem to please her, and these are handed down to the heirarchy of the Blood of Vol as the teachings of the church. It might not even be her fault that they've totally misinterpreted her intent.
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 12-25-06, 05:32 PM	Vol becomes a lich in -2600. That's ~3600 years ago. Draconomicon says that green dragons (Vol is half-green-dragon) live 2300 years. Less than 3,000 years that is for sure. I would wager somewhere between 1000 and 2000. At least according to the optional old age rules in the Draconomicon. According to the History of the World timeline on ECS pages 224-225, House Vol was annihilated about 2600 years ago. ECS p.228 confirms this date. FoE, however, sets the date of the betrayal and fall of House Vol at 2398 years ago. Obviously there is a contradiction here. I am more inclined to believe ECS over FoE, but it could just as well be explained that scholars in khorvaire estimate the date of the fall of the house at 1702 bk (before the kingdom as opposed to year of the kingdom), while the elves of Aerenal and some Seekers in the Blood of Vol, know the true date to be much more recently. Hook: Some members of The Twelve believe that the Mark of Making was truly the first mark, rather than the fabled Mark of Death. The PCs are afforded an all-expenses-paid trip to Aeranal to bring back proof that the Mark of Death was not the first Dragonmark. Edit: I like that fluff, Nuclear Buddha! Is that a pic of Somora from The Ring of what's-her-name from The Grudge?
Nuclear_Buddha 12-26-06, 12:57 PM	Yes, Samara from The Ring.
Edymnion 12-30-06, 08:27 PM	As a side note, my Erandis Vol looks like this (http://nuclearbuddha.blogspot.com/2006/11/erandis-vol.html).Actually, I believe we have a picture of Vol in Faiths of Eberron. Can't find a link to the spread image, but look in the book at the full version of the cover art, and you'll find a half-dragon lich with long fingers commanding what would appear to be the emerald claw. Sounds like Vol to me.
Sphere 12-31-06, 12:21 AM	Actually, I believe we have a picture of Vol in Faiths of Eberron. Can't find a link to the spread image, but look in the book at the full version of the cover art, and you'll find a half-dragon lich with long fingers commanding what would appear to be the emerald claw. Sounds like Vol to me. I would have thought her body would have been much smaller, like a child's. Given the long lifespan of elves and dragons, and the amount of hatred the dragons and elves displayed hunting her down, I find it hard to believe that she would have survived 110 years. And besides, fully sentient undead half-dragon babies are just a much creepier kind of enemy to spring on your PC's than normal liches. :plotting:
ArcTan 12-31-06, 03:36 AM	The most recent word on elves is -- similar to the way elves were originally portrayed in Tolkien's work -- that they physically mature at the same rate as any other humanoid species, becoming fully physically adult in their teens just as humans do, but the next century or so is spent socially and psychologically maturing, such that they don't consider themselves fully mentally adult until much later (at the age of 110 that's given for a mature starting adventurer).
Sphere 12-31-06, 04:33 AM	The most recent word on elves is -- similar to the way elves were originally portrayed in Tolkien's work -- that they physically mature at the same rate as any other humanoid species, becoming fully physically adult in their teens just as humans do, but the next century or so is spent socially and psychologically maturing, such that they don't consider themselves fully mentally adult until much later (at the age of 110 that's given for a mature starting adventurer). Do you have a link to that? My google-fu is found to be lacking.
ArcTan 12-31-06, 04:46 PM	Do you have a link to that? My google-fu is found to be lacking. I don't know if it's available online -- this is from Races of the Wild, so whether you consider that more canon than the typical assumption from reading the PHB (that "mature" for Elves at 110 means the same as "mature" for Humans in their 20s) is up to you.
lordalm 12-31-06, 07:29 PM	I don't know if it's available online -- this is from Races of the Wild, so whether you consider that more canon than the typical assumption from reading the PHB (that "mature" for Elves at 110 means the same as "mature" for Humans in their 20s) is up to you. Being full grown and "mature" are not two things that go hand in hand. As per the whole femforge debacle. ;)
Nuclear_Buddha 01-03-07, 12:31 PM	Actually, I believe we have a picture of Vol in Faiths of Eberron. Can't find a link to the spread image, but look in the book at the full version of the cover art, and you'll find a half-dragon lich with long fingers commanding what would appear to be the emerald claw. Sounds like Vol to me. I know the pic. 1. Where is it stated that this is Vol? What you're giving me is conjecture. 2. I expected the Emerald Claw to be more... well, emerald. Those guys are in red and don't feature the rather distinctive garb of the EC depicted in other splash-pages that depict the EC. 3. Now ask me if I care. I've already stated that my interpretation goes completely in the face of the published goals of the Blood of Vol anyway.
CannibalSmith 01-03-07, 01:13 PM	By the way, what are those guys anyway? They sprout horns from their necks!
Joni-san 01-13-07, 01:51 AM	IMO they look more like Khyber cultists than BoVers.
jonci 01-14-07, 01:54 AM	Shouldn't be hard to make up a modivation for Vol to return to life. Immortality is nice and all, but it will getting tiring eventually. Besides the fact the ECS says Vol wants to restore the Mark of Death, you could use revenge as a modivation. The elves and dragons wiped her bloodline out, so she is probably a bit bitter over the matter. That or house pride; the dragonmarked houses have a lot of pride in themselves and would never want to see it fall. Besides, Vol didn't choose to be undead so she may be looking for a way to undo what her mother did. The way I see it: you either gives her a reason to be an evil cult leader, or she is just another insane lich that needs a good Paladin beating.
frog8987 02-02-07, 12:01 AM	If I was going to have Vol come back then what I would have her do is wait tell Dolurrh is coterminous with the prime plane, then have her and a bunch of her fallowers kill them selves, then fight their way back to the prime plane, all greek hero style
davethebrave371 02-19-07, 01:10 PM	Hey there David. You should be able to bring a character back to life after slaying his/her undead incarnation. Any time spent while undead will count as "dead" time as well. Have fun and good gaming! And there we have it. A 260th level Cleric is required to raise Vol from the dead. That's why she hasn't done it. It took her way more than 200 years to get people to believe in her to the point of them getting clerical abilities from it, so I'd say a 20th level cleric of the BoV (if he or she ever existed) still wouldn't have been enough to raise her.
sooperspook 02-20-07, 08:41 AM	A single cleric might not have the power to bring her back... but what about a whole LOT of clerics? Like say, an entire religious movements worth...:smirk: That could be one of the reasons why she started the BoV. To gain enough clerics who can cast Resurrection(or whatever) , that they can work in concert to raise her. After all, multiple low level casters working on a high level magic(item) is an established method in Eberron.
davethebrave371 02-20-07, 09:46 AM	A single cleric might not have the power to bring her back... but what about a whole LOT of clerics? Like say, an entire religious movements worth...:smirk: That could be one of the reasons why she started the BoV. To gain enough clerics who can cast Resurrection(or whatever) , that they can work in concert to raise her. After all, multiple low level casters working on a high level magic(item) is an established method in Eberron. And established method probably accompished through what is essentially an Eldritch Machine (i.e. maybe Vol doesn't have or know about all the potential requirements) and remember that the effect of an Eldritch Machine may border on Epic, but none of the described effects in the ECS of an Eldritch Machine even come close to a level 40 or 50 effect, much less a level 260 effect. I'd say that's beyond the scope of even an Eldritch Machine. And that's if that group method doesn't only apply to Artificers and item creation, which is highly unlikely. Also remember, even that method doesn't achieve epic effects, just 1-20 magic items. So in short, no, I don't think it'd work.
Yakman 02-20-07, 06:23 PM	It might just be a side effect from having a 'Mark of Death' on her skin that when she's "Raised", she just ends up reverting to undeath... It's possible that she's tried hundreds of times to raise herself, and each time it has been successful... but she's immediately died again.
Roland the Crownbreaker 02-20-07, 06:48 PM	Nothing that you want as a plot device is beyond the capacity of an Eldritch Machine, it doesn't matter if the thing duplicates the effect of a level 50000 caster, like say.........changing the alignment of an entire plane. That has been done in the novels, so if you want to do something similar in your campaign, I'd say it can be done.
davethebrave371 02-20-07, 06:59 PM	Nothing that you want as a plot device is beyond the capacity of an Eldritch Machine, it doesn't matter if the thing duplicates the effect of a level 50000 caster, like say.........changing the alignment of an entire plane. That has been done in the novels, so if you want to do something similar in your campaign, I'd say it can be done. Well, discounting the novels (as they aren't canon), nothing done in sourcebooks, no examples of Eldritch Machine I've seen in any Eberron book, has done anything beyond what'd be essentially a 20th level effect.
sooperspook 02-20-07, 09:14 PM	What, for arguments sake, would you call the level of effect of a ritual, that pushed an entire PLANE of EXISTENCE out of sync PERMANENTLY? The orcs managed to do that, the giants almost managed to do that. Thats possibly what Vol has in mind, a ritual so big, so powerful it requires the equivalent of an entire races worth of mid to high level divine casters. (Like what the orcs had) As for Eldritch machines not being powerful enough, I believe it specifically states that and Eldritch machine can do anything the DM wants it to do. It is a plot device, nothing more, nothing less.
davethebrave371 02-20-07, 09:29 PM	What, for arguments sake, would you call the level of effect of a ritual, that pushed an entire PLANE of EXISTENCE out of sync PERMANENTLY? The orcs managed to do that, the giants almost managed to do that. Thats possibly what Vol has in mind, a ritual so big, so powerful it requires the equivalent of an entire races worth of mid to high level divine casters. (Like what the orcs had) As for Eldritch machines not being powerful enough, I believe it specifically states that and Eldritch machine can do anything the DM wants it to do. It is a plot device, nothing more, nothing less. All the effects that an Eldritch Machine have ever had (as written) are less than 20. Now, I understand that it is a DM's choice, but that's like saying, "I'm just going to house rule that a cleric can bring Vol back if they have even just Raise Dead." Sure, a DM can do that, it is always their perogative. But rules as written, it's not possible. That's all I was saying. Any DM can bring Vol back any way they see fit. But aside from "The DM says he can" there isn't any actual way to do it. That's all I was saying. As to the planar seals, who says those were Eldritch Machines? And even if they were, think about how MANY added up to an epic level effect. It wasn't just one seal that did it. So that's at least a dozen (if not thousands) of 20th level effects, all stacking together. So if Vol can get 200 or so Eldritch Raising Machines, sure. If that's what the planar seals even were.
Yakman 02-21-07, 10:52 AM	What, for arguments sake, would you call the level of effect of a ritual, that pushed an entire PLANE of EXISTENCE out of sync PERMANENTLY? The orcs managed to do that, the giants almost managed to do that. Thats possibly what Vol has in mind, a ritual so big, so powerful it requires the equivalent of an entire races worth of mid to high level divine casters. (Like what the orcs had) I thought that the Giants actually did knock Dal Quor permanently out of sync, and the orcs just bound the daelkyr to Khyber. So far as I know, Xoriat could come back at any time--it's erratic and it always has been. Am I wrong :confused:
sooperspook 02-21-07, 06:28 PM	All the effects that an Eldritch Machine have ever had (as written) are less than 20. Now, I understand that it is a DM's choice, but that's like saying, "I'm just going to house rule that a cleric can bring Vol back if they have even just Raise Dead." Sure, a DM can do that, it is always their perogative. But rules as written, it's not possible. That's all I was saying. Any DM can bring Vol back any way they see fit. But aside from "The DM says he can" there isn't any actual way to do it. That's all I was saying. As to the planar seals, who says those were Eldritch Machines? And even if they were, think about how MANY added up to an epic level effect. It wasn't just one seal that did it. So that's at least a dozen (if not thousands) of 20th level effects, all stacking together. So if Vol can get 200 or so Eldritch Raising Machines, sure. If that's what the planar seals even were. Actually, Rules as written, DON'T say that an Eldritch machine is limited to under Epic effects. The effects they've bothered to put in the books may be, but they are only examples and not hard, fast rules. As for the Xoriat seals, afaik they weren't Eldritch machines. They were, however, part of a vast and powerful ritual cast by the combined powers of all the orc and hobgoblin druids to push Xoriat into permanent remoteness. Focus components in other words. What I was trying to say was, if enough casters working together can alter the movements of an entire plane , then enough casters working together can raise Vol from the (un)dead. And I think that might be an excellent reason for her to try and promote the BoV. If she gets enough high level clerics, she might be able to enact a ritual to return her to life. Heck, if she's ambitious enough, maybe she thinks she can return to life immortal. Or become a true god. Or anything else her broken mind can conceive of.
goblin_pride 02-22-07, 03:00 AM	What, for arguments sake, would you call the level of effect of a ritual, that pushed an entire PLANE of EXISTENCE out of sync PERMANENTLY? The orcs managed to do that, the giants almost managed to do that. Thats possibly what Vol has in mind, a ritual so big, so powerful it requires the equivalent of an entire races worth of mid to high level divine casters. (Like what the orcs had) You know, now that you mention it, the Mournland and Dolurrh are strikingly similar. Has anyone seen ol' Erandis since the Mourning?
Yakman 02-22-07, 11:27 AM	You know, now that you mention it, the Mournland and Dolurrh are strikingly similar. Has anyone seen ol' Erandis since the Mourning? I don't think that anyone's seen Erandis d'Vol for about two thousand years....
davethebrave371 02-22-07, 10:19 PM	Actually, Rules as written, DON'T say that an Eldritch machine is limited to under Epic effects. The effects they've bothered to put in the books may be, but they are only examples and not hard, fast rules. As for the Xoriat seals, afaik they weren't Eldritch machines. They were, however, part of a vast and powerful ritual cast by the combined powers of all the orc and hobgoblin druids to push Xoriat into permanent remoteness. Focus components in other words. What I was trying to say was, if enough casters working together can alter the movements of an entire plane , then enough casters working together can raise Vol from the (un)dead. And I think that might be an excellent reason for her to try and promote the BoV. If she gets enough high level clerics, she might be able to enact a ritual to return her to life. Heck, if she's ambitious enough, maybe she thinks she can return to life immortal. Or become a true god. Or anything else her broken mind can conceive of. The rules don't say they're limited, no. I already addressed that point. As to the giant res ritual, I think that's entirely plausible...when she can get as many followers with PC class levels as the Gatekeepers had at that point in history. :rolleyes:
larskrygan 02-22-07, 11:21 PM	one question has to be asked though : why did she create her cult in the first place ??? anyone ever wondered about that ? why would a lich focus so much on blood, i mean a vampire as a mean of existence i can understand, but a lich ... after reading FoE, PHtoE and SoX, i pretty got the idea that Vol is not at all interested in coming back to life, just as the previous post said she would be far weaker alive ( although her Mark could counterbalance that fact...), she is just seeking to create or locate one of her descendant : thus the blood that every cult collect, preserve and send inevitably to her. there is a feat in the PHoE describing the work of vol for bringing back her line ( Death's blood ) She seeks to find or recreate her line and only undeath can grant her the time she needs.
davethebrave371 02-22-07, 11:24 PM	I agree with this reading of the Blood of Vol. Vol initiates breeding programs, not massive REZ ME PLZ rituals.
sooperspook 02-25-07, 07:44 AM	The rules don't say they're limited, no. I already addressed that point. As to the giant res ritual, I think that's entirely plausible...when she can get as many followers with PC class levels as the Gatekeepers had at that point in history. :rolleyes: Well, yeah. It would probably take an incredibly long period of time to build up the numbers she needs. Thats not a problem for her though. She is effectively immortal after all. I'd be surprised if any of her simplest plans, plots or schemes take anything less than a hundred years to come to fruition. :D Actually, that makes me think. She's got a breeding program going as well, so by the time she can be ressed, she's going to be the Matriarch of a fully fledged d'marked elfen family, the 'Goddess' of a vast religion and more powerful than any other person. I think thats the kind of multifaceted plan a thousands year old lich could come up with. Don't you? :)
davethebrave371 02-25-07, 02:12 PM	Well, yeah. It would probably take an incredibly long period of time to build up the numbers she needs. Thats not a problem for her though. She is effectively immortal after all. I'd be surprised if any of her simplest plans, plots or schemes take anything less than a hundred years to come to fruition. :D Actually, that makes me think. She's got a breeding program going as well, so by the time she can be ressed, she's going to be the Matriarch of a fully fledged d'marked elfen family, the 'Goddess' of a vast religion and more powerful than any other person. I think thats the kind of multifaceted plan a thousands year old lich could come up with. Don't you? :) Hey, I'm not saying it's out of the realms of possibility that she's thinking of eventually res ritualling herself. I just think that's not her immediate concern. With the wedge the Emerald Claw drove between Phiarlan and Thuranni, I think she's trying to turn Thuranni into the new House Vol. I wonder who gifted the good Baron with his two Shadows...
sooperspook 02-26-07, 02:30 AM	Hey, I'm not saying it's out of the realms of possibility that she's thinking of eventually res ritualling herself. I just think that's not her immediate concern. With the wedge the Emerald Claw drove between Phiarlan and Thuranni, I think she's trying to turn Thuranni into the new House Vol. I wonder who gifted the good Baron with his two Shadows... :eek: :plotting: :evillaugh You just gave me more plot hooks for my elven (House Phiarlan) players to deal with. :D
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 12:09 PM	:eek: :plotting: :evillaugh You just gave me more plot hooks for my elven (House Phiarlan) players to deal with. :D They hint at it in Dragonmarked, and there's a few sentences here and there in other books that really gave me that impression even before Dragonmarked. Some stuff in the ECS, and in Sharn: CoT, 5N, PGtE and FoE. You read something and go, "Hey...that could...whoa." Honestly, as soon as CoT came out and I saw the illustration of the Baron, it clicked. I mean, they already said it in the ECS, but as soon as I saw it, I was like, "...snap."
Seth7 03-02-07, 02:12 PM	Hi people, i'm new on the forum, have been playing for a while tho, But can somebody tell me where I can find a good picture of Vol, I know she's on 'Faith of Eberron', which I have but I want the picture on my laptop, but I can't find it anywhere (btw didn't know there was a picture of Vol in 'Magic of Eberron', is that true?), not even on Wayne Reynolds site, the creator if the picture. Does anyone kno where I can find it? Plz paste the link or something if u know. thanks a lot, And to keep with the threat, I think Vol wouldn't wanna become alive again, why would she? To use her mark maybe, but I think she doesn't really need it. Like some people already said if she could and want to become alive again, the question would be if it'll work, she'll die on the spot and being the queen of the undead it would eb stupid to become elf half-dragon again. love, Tim
CannibalSmith 03-02-07, 02:27 PM	Can somebody tell me where I can find a good picture of Vol? There are none. Besides, her appearance is disputable (see earlier posts of this thread).
Seth7 03-03-07, 01:36 AM	u , i know for certain it is Vol on the cover of "Faths of Eberron", who else is that half-dragon lich with green dragon ings, tho it is ridiculus she has wings because medium half dragon creatures can't have wings according to the rules :p yeah i'm a bureacrat, but if that aint Vol than i'm ****ing elminster, but u ask why i still need the picture if i know it's Vol on there, well i just need the picture on ma pc because i'm making her stats and i want to put a picture with it from her because i'm a geek and i need a picture with stats of npc's, else it aint professional 8) love, Prince Seth
CannibalSmith 03-03-07, 01:42 AM	I figured you were asking for any good picture of her besides the one in the Faiths of Eberron. It's the only picture of her and it's crappy, imho.
Seth7 03-03-07, 11:33 AM	I figured you were asking for any good picture of her besides the one in the Faiths of Eberron. It's the only picture of her and it's crappy, imho. no i'm actually asking for that one which if find a very good pic, but i can't find it anywhere. But if someone else knows other pics be so kind to let me know, Ok I have already scanned the pic of Vol from faiths of Eberron and my sister brought photoshop so I already have it, so never mind, but if somebody else still knos other pictures of Vol plz let me know greets, tim
Nuclear_Buddha 03-03-07, 06:13 PM	u , i know for certain it is Vol on the cover of "Faths of Eberron", who else is that half-dragon lich with green dragon ings, tho it is ridiculus she has wings because medium half dragon creatures can't have wings according to the rules :p yeah i'm a bureacrat, but if that aint Vol than i'm ****ing elminster So, hang on... that's Vol because you say it is even though you also say it doesn't follow the rules that it would be her? Gee, I guess that settles it. How could I ever have been skeptical?
goblin_pride 03-03-07, 07:14 PM	Gee, I guess that settles it. How could I ever have been skeptical? You're just too cynical.
Nuclear_Buddha 03-05-07, 10:19 AM	Me, cynical? But I've got no reason to be cynical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiling_Buddha). Look, it could very well be her. But it's not obvious. I mean, the pic of Kaius on the 5 Nations splash-page was obvious. It was him; it had the wolf-head banners, attendant vampires, etc. This one; sure, it could be her: she's got claws and wings and looks undead. But there's no iconography, there's no evidence of her usual minions the Emerald Claw (who are pretty distinctive), I don't even think it's obvious that she's got any green on her. Seth7 also made the good point (though it wasn't his intention) that if she's got wings from her template, she'd have to be Large sized. We don't know if this is supposed to be the case (on the other hand, as Edymnion likes to point out, she's already breaking the rules with the application of the lich template). All in all, it's pretty inconclusive. That's why I'm saying that without some sort of official word, we shouldn't just be declaring that's her. If someone can point that out to me, I'll gladly shut up.
Zombomaniac 03-05-07, 11:42 AM	How did she break the rules with the Lich Template?:confused:
Yakman 03-05-07, 11:51 AM	How did she break the rules with the Lich Template?:confused: Because she's a 'half-dragon' she has the 'dragon-type' As such, she's cannot be a lich. She must be a dracolich, and therefore does not have a phylactery. Yet, all the documentation about her calls her a lich. So there's a confusion. I personally think she's better played as a dracolich, but that's just my opinion.
Nuclear_Buddha 03-05-07, 11:52 AM	As a half-dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm), she's got the "dragon" type. The lich template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) can only be applied to humanoids. She should be a dracolich instead. (Curse you, Yakman!)
davethebrave371 03-05-07, 12:04 PM	I've said dracolich from the start. I misread the ECS and thought it WAS dracolich, and when I eventually read on the boards that people were confused, I went back and read it, and it never did say dracolich. But I had imagined it for so long, I just went with it. But the wings in that pic are an odd touch. A feat maybe? That only a dragonblood or dragon type could take?
Yakman 03-05-07, 12:23 PM	just for reference, are there any other mentions of liches anywhere else in the source books?
Zombomaniac 03-05-07, 01:40 PM	I remeber a Lich being mentioned in a Dragon or Dungeon mag, but i dont remeber which one. It was a Elf-Lich in some prison that was on a Manifest Zone. They wouldn't kill her cause they didn't know where her phylactery was. Other than that I dont know of any.
Artector 03-06-07, 01:29 PM	But the wings in that pic are an odd touch. A feat maybe? That only a dragonblood or dragon type could take? The wings could be Vestigial too. They wouldn't be able to provide flight, but they are wings. And Zombomaniac, I think the prison you are thinking of is Dreadhold in the Lhazzar Principalities. I'd have to check.
davethebrave371 03-06-07, 09:28 PM	The wings could be Vestigial too. They wouldn't be able to provide flight, but they are wings. And Zombomaniac, I think the prison you are thinking of is Dreadhold in the Lhazzar Principalities. I'd have to check. Yeah, some litch bich ( :P ) who was wandering around Khorvaire in the 500s YK sometime. She's in prison...forever MUHAHAHAHAHAHA. But yeah, vestigial, never thought of that.
goblin_pride 03-06-07, 09:40 PM	Me, cynical? But I've got no reason to be cynical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiling_Buddha). That link was disturbing. Not so disturbing as the line of thinking that would give that name to a force so destructive, but disturbing none the less.
Rekko 03-07-07, 10:37 AM	Vol becoming living again. I see only two reasons why she would do it. The first: She has won divine ranks and possess an army force of true fallowers. The second: she figured a way to get rid of her dragon heritage (half-dragon template) Meanwhile, she has but to suffer lichdom which is her only way to survive the dragons and the Aereni elves and give her all the time she needs to revive her bloodline and the Mark of Death. Rekko