Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Negflar2099 03-30-07, 04:50 PM	I'm sure this has been asked before but since the search feature is down I've got no choice but to ask it and hope for the best. I was wondering what everyone thinks the Warforged Class Demographics are. I assume most (maybe 80%) of the Warforged are probably Warriors but then again maybe not. Maybe they are Fighters. It depends on how much better than your average soldier Warforged are. Are they like a soldier who doesn't have to eat or sleep (Warrior) or are they a soldier who doesn't have to eat or sleep and are better at combat than your average soldier (Fighter)? Then there's the other classes. I know that towards the end of the Last War House Cannith began experimenting with other designs but how many became what class? How many Warforged Monks, Barbarians or Paladins are there? Do the creators have any control over what the Warforged come out as? Do the Warforged come out pre-trained in the basics of their class or do they have to be trained? Then there's the why of it. I can imagine why they might create Warforged Experts if they wanted an Expert they could trust. A Warforged Expert would be like C3PO. But why create a Warforged Rogue or Warforged Druid? Just wondering.
Vharuck 03-30-07, 05:16 PM	I would venture a guess at this: 95% of warforged are Fighters. This is because as soon as they came out, they were indoctrinated into a combat mindset and put through months of combat and warfare training. They underwent more training than the drafted peasants, who'd end up as warriors. Many even ended up with more than one level when they were sold. Because of this training, non-fighters are rare. However, many non-fighter classes were products of the end of the war. Not only did Cannith become more experimental in training and design, but those warforged created right before the end of the war never completed any real training. They were just told, "You're free, now beat it." They might have picked up some odd class. That's just my ideas, though.
JulesCARV 03-30-07, 08:30 PM	I'd say maybe 65% are fighters. That establishes them as a very martial people with a focus on the fighter class, while still allowing room for a smattering artificers, commoners, duskblades, experts, magewrights, monks, psions, rangers, rogues, warriors, wizards, etc, as well. Compressing all classes other than fighters into 5% of warforged seems a bit too extreme for me.
Kaodi 03-30-07, 10:55 PM	If you reword it so that 95% have fighter levels I think you might be closer to the mark. After the Treaty of Thronehold, they were free to multi-class, hehehe...
Cifer 03-30-07, 11:36 PM	To my knowledge, it was established that the first generations of WF usually were Barbarians rather than fighters. Further, the Infernal Bovine usually places a WF veteran as 2nd level fighter. From this, I'd infer about 75% fighters, 15% barbarians and 10% others, with a significant percentage of artificers. This of course doesn't include WF scouts, chargers and titans.
AvonRekaes 03-31-07, 12:10 AM	I've never heard of anything saying the first modern type warforged (the PC race) were barbarians.
Cifer 03-31-07, 10:07 AM	@Avon How about Campaign Setting, page 27? It's the reason why the starting age tables are reversed for warforged.
Edymnion 03-31-07, 10:28 AM	Yup, and as a rule of thumb, all Warforged have actual PC class levels. Thats what made them such elite troops in the last war, the differance between a Human Warrior 1 and a Warforged Fighter 1 immediantly made the WF a better troop.
mrrodgers 03-31-07, 12:04 PM	As a dedicated WF player i recoil at the idea of a demographic, but thereis one :( Yeah 65% fighters is good if you count the other combat classes in there. the remaining 35% are mostly clerics and artificers with a handful of wizards. (a warforged sorcerer is impossible because you need a draconic bloodline. and WF have no blood :))
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-31-07, 12:29 PM	I don't think warforged clerics would be that common. Most have had little time or inclination to connect to any religion, and then there's the Wis penalty :) I figure most would be martial classes, and the older ones would nearly all be fighters. I think a warforged is possible; there's more than one type of "bloodline" that can create a sorcerer (not just draconic) ... although of course you can be a rare sorcerer without blood at all. (There are many kinds of undead sorcerers, and if they're not vampires they probably don't have blood either.)
AvonRekaes 03-31-07, 04:21 PM	As a dedicated WF player i recoil at the idea of a demographic, but thereis one :( Yeah 65% fighters is good if you count the other combat classes in there. the remaining 35% are mostly clerics and artificers with a handful of wizards. (a warforged sorcerer is impossible because you need a draconic bloodline. and WF have no blood :)) Sorcerers don't require a draconic bloodline. There's numerous support for non-draconic sorcerers who get their powers somewhere else. (fiends, celestials, and the like). The Draconic bloodline is just the most powerful. And keith said that a warforged sorcerer would be like a giant living Eternal Wand. Works for me.
Cifer 03-31-07, 05:11 PM	And keith said that a warforged sorcerer would be like a giant living Eternal Wand. Works for me. Now I'm picturing a giant holding and pointing a warforged sorcerer... great.
JulesCARV 03-31-07, 05:20 PM	Yup, and as a rule of thumb, all Warforged have actual PC class levels. Thats what made them such elite troops in the last war, the differance between a Human Warrior 1 and a Warforged Fighter 1 immediantly made the WF a better troop. I can see why the ratio of warforged fighters to warforged warriors would be much higher than the ratio of human fighters to human warriors, to the point where warforged fighters are more common than warforged warriors, but I see little reason to suppose that the ratio of warforged rogues to warforged experts is higher than the ratio of human rogues to human experts, or the ratio of warforged wizards to warforged magewrights is higher than the ratio of human wizards to human magewrights.
Balseraph 03-31-07, 05:49 PM	I personally run with the idea that all 'forged have PC levels. Most of them have a level of fighter or barbarian. Probably 95% of Warforged (in my Eberron game at least) have fighter or barbarian levels; possibly both. In my game, not a single Warforged was created and trained initially as an NPC class. I can see situations for Warforged to take most of the NPC classes later in life, though. Commoner - after the war the 'forged does what a lot of veterans do and purchases a small farm, or becomes a tireless tenant farmer for a lord somewhere. (I could particularly see this in Karrnath or Thrane) Expert - same deal as commoner, but more interested in running a business or doing something with skilled labor. Adept - if the 'forged developed a bond with magic and/or religion, I could happily envision a Warforged priest (not necessarily a cleric of course) of this class. Aristocrat - develops an interest in politics or the comfortable life and buys/earns a title of some kind. Warrior - this is the one I cannot see very easily. There's no real reason that a 'forged wouldn't keep going in barbarian or fighter. While a human's skill can slip downwards and many an out-of-training fighter might end up being a has-been warrior after the glory days, I'm not sure that most Warforged would go this route. That's my basic views on the NPC classes and Warforged.
goblin_pride 03-31-07, 06:18 PM	I don't think warforged clerics would be that common. Most have had little time or inclination to connect to any religion, and then there's the Wis penalty :) Not everyone follows the path to which they're best suited. A warforged with curiosity and a strong desire to explore the mysteries of their creation might easily find solace and comfort in the faithful of the host, solely for the fact that Onatar, the great creator is one of the Sovereigns. When a warforged on the field calls for repair, he could just as easily be tended to by a brother versed in the teachings of the sovereigns as an artificer schooled in the ways of manufacture.
KidChainsaw 03-31-07, 07:31 PM	The way I see it WF can be divided into three groups. The first are veterans of the Last War. The majority of these are fighters but there are also rangers (scouts and commandos) and artificiers (maintenance and magical support). Of course, as the 'forged gained experience it could easily multiclass but any warforged that was built as a soldier in the last war would have at least one level in one of these classes. Then there are the experiments. These would be the -first- warforged, built well before Cannith started selling them as weapons. As they are the first sentient living constructs, prototypes and experiments with what the "new" living constructs are capable of. They can be any class. Experiments would also include those 'forged created by the secret creation forge in the bowels of Sharn - Merrix's further experiments. Of course, experiments would be very rare. Finally, there are the Mournland'forged. These are the twisted, patched-together, purpose-built terrors built by the Lord of Blades. And their purpose is the Crusade against the Fleshed. Mad, bad and dangerous to know, they are more varied than the veterans but all are built for violence -just as many barbarians as fighters and a sprinkling of clerics/LE paladins (see the Unearthed Arcana).
Hideous Phidias 03-31-07, 11:43 PM	Ok as I remember it warforged started off as fighters and Barbarans in the eary days of their use in the Last War. They were sent to the lines to fight in the groups of soldiers that were made up of all the other races. As time went on Cannith found that not only did warforged out preform fleshy troops they would be held back by their mortal counter parts. the warforged needs no sleep of food. They can march all day and still be fresh for a fight, unlike mortal troops. So people got the idea to make all warforged units. that means that not only fighter type warforged but others to be support characters for the unit. This means that a large number of warforged artificers, wizards, sorcerers, and even clerics and Paladins. Warforged make good rangers and scouts too.They would be needed to replace the fleshies that would have filled those rolls. The paladins and cleric type would have beed order by Thrane and other nations trying to fight Karrnath undead units. So my point is you are just as likely to see a warforged rogue or wizard as a warforged fighter. The older warforged would be more likely to be some sort of fighter type character. So keep that in mind for back story writing. The odder the class you take as a warforge the newer you most likely are.
DrOfDemonology 04-01-07, 12:09 PM	Well, as for demographics, it's obvious the bulk of them are/were fighting-types of some sort (warriors, fighters, barbarians, etc) because that's what they were originally created for. As to what percentage is which, honestly, who cares? DMs can make their notable Warforged NPCs any class they wish based on the character's background story (like any character). The same goes for PCs; players can choose whatever they wish for their Warforged. All options are open. In my own campaign, I have a NPC named Forge (more commonly called Brother Forge by the Sharn residents who know him) who's a CG Fighter 1/Cleric 2 (current level) with the Healing and Artifice domains. He follows no god or religion, simply draws on spiritual power from the universe (see ECS P.34-35). His story is that he was created in the last year of the war, and has since found the healer within. This is just an example of what's possible :)
Cifer 04-01-07, 06:07 PM	The paladins and cleric type would have beed order by Thrane and other nations trying to fight Karrnath undead units. I'd deem that as rather unlikely. Divine power and spellcasting is IMO the only thing that can not be directly infused into warforged but has to be learned by them. Further, even if it was possible, I doubt Thrane would order the "soulless" constructs to be imbued by the Silver Flame to act as its champions.
Hideous Phidias 04-02-07, 03:46 AM	Ypu foget that warforgedlikeevery otherracelearn their class. They learn whatmost creatures take years in the first few months of life. after thta time period they need too take the same time as everyone else. So this hole devine power being infused in to them idea you have is misplaced. You are thinking of the healing school of magic. These spellswere made to heal flesh not constructs that is why they only do half. All other devine spells effect warforged the same. And though many people in Thrane see warforged assoulless creatures that does not mean they would not want them as paladins or cleric. those are the best classes for fighting undead which the Thranions did alot of when fighting Karrnath's army. A paladin is a paladin nno matter the race. I would think that the thranions would think better a soulless construct dieingon the feilds of battle then their sons and daughters.
Evilmonster 04-02-07, 07:55 PM	For what's left, not so much the percentages of what were trained: 20% Barbarians. For the first half of the fighting almost all WF were Brabarians, but most of those also died. 50% Fighters. These started turning out just before the mid point of the fighting and were produced and trained in the largest numbers and in mass. 15% Artificers. In addition to field support (repairs etc.) they were alsothe bulk of the arcain firepower of WF units. 5% Wizards. In the last years of the fighting these new sholders were to become the next wave of destruction. 10% Fighter/Rogues. These were the scouts and were fairly common. No WF were created and trained to be Clerics, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Druids or Psions (excepting the Psiforged) since these classes require something more than just drilling and training, you need to have a real speritual connection to the world for these classes. If you take any random newly made WF and try to train him to be a paladin or cleric, for example, you'd probably end up with a warrior with a bunch of ranks in Knowledge: religion. The kind of connection to the devine needed for spell casting can't just be drilled into someone, they have to love the gods/nature first. Personaly, I've restricted Monks to followers of the Undieing Court, Blood of Vol, and the Path of Light, sonce those religions focus on a personal enlightnment and I like to keep the class alittle exotic. But even so, the training focuses alot on ethics, the last thing you want your likking machienes to think about.
Hideous Phidias 04-02-07, 11:29 PM	WHY NO CLERICS OR PALADINS? A new warforged is like a child, with no idea about how the real world works. IF you want to make a finagic of your religion then what better choise. I mean the warforged is created then trained in his new roll, they only get to learn what information the cannith give them. The Canniths would willing take any order to make a warforged to fit any need. I mean look at religion, most people start to lose it as they get older. this is because they learn to think for themselves with the passing of time. The older one is the more expereience one has to judge things on. no warforged is older then what 33 years. I mean they are blank slates waiting for any idea tobe pushed apon them. Look at how they acted when the war ended. Many did not know what to do, some battle groups stood in formation for days waiting for orders to come. They have spent most of their lives being told what to think and who to kill. It was not until the treaty of throne that they were freed. That was two years before the camapign is set to start. They would have time to start to learn about life. Still we are mainly shape by the things that happen to us early in life, humans have childhood and warforged have training. Both can make you into a man of god or rogue cutting throats in the night. I you think that the warforged can not have a spiritoul conection to something then you are taking a very narrow minded veiw of it, almost races. It maybe how many people from thrane see them but warforged are people too.
Evilmonster 04-03-07, 01:54 AM	The way I see it clerics and paladins aren't made, they answer a calling. It's not something that can be drilled into you. Cannath might be wicked good at making magic swords or golems, but the sort of personal connection to the divine is something else. Sure, following the war there is NO reason that a WF couldn't have such an epiphany. But there are some classes that just cannot be mass produced. Sorcerers have an innate knack for magic that one must explore personally. Sure they can have mentors that help them along but it’s a personal road to travel. I’ve already gone on about Clerics and Paladins, and I feel the same about Druids and Rangers. Rangers are more than just warriors that are really good at tracking and surviving, they have a deep and mysterious connection to the land and that connection grants them mystic powers that cannot be taught in any school. You might be able to train a WF to be a psion and it is second nature to the Psiforged, but Wilders are born not made. And Monks are on a journey of personal perfection and enlightenment. There are probably monasteries where hundreds of supplicants are drilled in the martial arts, but the power comes from balancing ones physical form with the internal divinity of ones’ own soul/ka/chi. Fighters, Rogues, Wizards, and Artificers, as rare as they might be in Eberron, are still just skilled professions. With some drilling you can train anyone to be a warrior or thug, but if you have a blank slate with no concerns other than fighting it would be almost as easy, and well worth the investment, to train the WF as Fighters and Rogues. A WF doesn’t need to be called to magic, or even like it all that much, to be trained in the ways of a Wizard or Artificer. There are certainly plenty that are smart enough, and those who were identified are put in class and just not released until they grasp it. One weird outcome of this, I suppose, would be many WF with odd multi-class combinations. Like hard bitten veteran Fighters discovering a connection to and love of music after the war and taking levels in Bard.
Evilmonster 04-03-07, 02:03 AM	WHY NO CLERICS OR PALADINS? . . .I mean look at religion, most people start to lose it as they get older. this is because they learn to think for themselves with the passing of time. The older one is the more expereience one has to judge things on. no warforged is older then what 33 years. I mean they are blank slates waiting for any idea tobe pushed apon them. . . Here's how I see it though. I'm sure that in Eberron there are hundreds of thousands of children with pure, unquestionable faith in the gods, just as I'm sure almost none of them can cast Cure Light Wounds. A cleric, or adept for that matter, has something more than that though. He/she feels the devine with them. It has a presence they can almost touch. Plus, I suspect that many people in this world question their faith when God dosn't answer their prayors. But in D&D the gods do with magic, even if you never actualy see the gods that has to be very reassuring.
Hideous Phidias 04-03-07, 07:59 AM	So you are saying that only characters that fell the power of divine magic can become clerics and paladins. So a warforged, a creature made of anceint and powerful magic that few understand can not be a cleric. One would think that a creature of magic maybe able to find the power of a god in themselves some where. Or the artificer making the warforged looks at the order form goes " Oh paladin" pushes the butten with the "D" for divine on it and divine magic makes the warforged. Does anyone here know how the warforged are made? NO that my point, saying they can not find the power of divine in them is like saying a halfling can not be a Palidin because the raceis all about being a rogue.
Evilmonster 04-03-07, 05:10 PM	So you are saying that only characters that fell the power of divine magic can become clerics and paladins. So a warforged, a creature made of anceint and powerful magic that few understand can not be a cleric. One would think that a creature of magic maybe able to find the power of a god in themselves some where. Or the artificer making the warforged looks at the order form goes " Oh paladin" pushes the butten with the "D" for divine on it and divine magic makes the warforged. Does anyone here know how the warforged are made? NO that my point, saying they can not find the power of divine in them is like saying a halfling can not be a Palidin because the raceis all about being a rogue. No, I'm saying that it's very unlikely that those classes would be the first to be picked up. After their initial training and service a WF could feel the call and become eather, but I don't think Cannath would or could train them as clerics or palidins.
Cifer 04-05-07, 07:32 PM	Another problem is that according to Faiths of Eberron, there is no way to make a human a cleric or paladin - you take in everyone who wants to become a priest and check whether they can channel divine power. So you are saying that only characters that fell the power of divine magic can become clerics and paladins. Yes. So a warforged, a creature made of anceint and powerful magic that few understand can not be a cleric. No. We're saying they can't be made a cleric. Sorcerers have an innate knack for magic that one must explore personally. Sure they can have mentors that help them along but it’s a personal road to travel. That, on the other hand side, is debateable. Sorcerers can be relatively easily reflavored: Just dump a load of Khyber shards into the vat where the WF is grown and he gets sorcerous powers.
Hideous Phidias 04-05-07, 08:28 PM	That, on the other hand side, is debateable. Sorcerers can be relatively easily reflavored: Just dump a load of Khyber shards into the vat where the WF is grown and he gets sorcerous powers. You say making a warforged sorcerer is easy while the divine caster are hard. Khyber shards in the vat you say. Well, why not holy water in the vat of something else that contains the holy divine power. And what are your thoughts on a warforged healer (healer a class form the miniature's hand book) They need not have a good just the want to heal people. I was rereading the warforged passages in RoE and ESC and It does say that in the religion sections that the canniths did try to limit the talk about religion when training warforged. So with that point made, I would say that people saying divine classed warforged would not a commion thing. But that does not mean that special orders could not be made. If it were the case then warforged would most likely need two hitdie. I would say it be based off of the fighter where in which they get their body feat for a bonus feat as well as on other. I say this because with only one then you could replace the one with te class hitdie ablitiies and skills, thus the need for two.
Cifer 04-05-07, 10:20 PM	You say making a warforged sorcerer is easy while the divine caster are hard. Khyber shards in the vat you say. Well, why not holy water in the vat of something else that contains the holy divine power. I think this comes down to personal opinion. Arcane magic is something that you use in the end, as countless magewrights demonstrate. Divine magic, on the other hand side, is something that you ask for, that is received (even when there may be noone truly giving it). Eberron is the setting where a priest selling spells is deemed corrupt - while the gods are less present than in other settings, religion has regained its meaning. But that does not mean that special orders could not be made. Well, who would make those "special orders"? Thrane doesn't think the 'forged have souls and the one thing more valuable to them than their lives is their faith - imbuing soulless construct abominations with the divine is tantamount to blasphemy, however many soldiers it might save. Depending on the time, the BoV may already have lost its state religion status (and thus its main source of ressources) in Karrnath when people realized WF might even have just the potential to become clerics. The undying aren't involved in the conflict. The nine... well, everything can happen there, but I doubt any chapter of Onatar would have both the ressources and the willingness to spend them on this. The only church with true military ambitions was the Silver Flame, who are also the most unlikely to order a warforged cleric.
yossarius 04-17-07, 12:36 PM	Just to further the discussion, I threw together a random roll chart to determine a random warforged NPCs first class level. d10 (1-8) Roll d% Result 01-20 Artificer 21-36 Barbarian 37-74 Fighter 75-77 Paladin 78-83 Psychic Warrior 84-91 Scout 92-96 Warmage 97-00 Warrior d10 (9-10) Roll d% Result 01-06 Bard 07-18 Cleric 19-26 Druid 27-40 Monk 41-48 Psion 49-62 Ranger 63-72 Rogue 73-78 Sorcerer 79-82 Swashbuckler 83-00 Wizard I am not insisting that my probabilities at correct, I just thought I'd offer some for discussion. My chart also makes not assumptions about whether or not the warforged in question multi-classes or not. EDIT: Crud. Give me a little time while I fugure out how to format this so that it's legible.
Cifer 04-17-07, 01:12 PM	Put the paladin somewhere into the 9-10 range (possibly in exchange for the rogue - I could see warforged assassins being somewhat regular, with their lack of need to breathe, eat or sleep), switch the artificer and barbarian chances and I agree with you.
yossarius 04-17-07, 02:05 PM	So, these are the changes that Cifer recommended: d10 (1-8) Roll d% Result 01-16 Artificer 17-36 Barbarian 37-74 Fighter 75-80 Psychic Warior 81-84 Rogue 85-92 Scout 93-97 Warmage 98-00 Warrior d10 (9-10) Roll d% Result 01-06 Bard 07-18 Cleric 19-26 Druid 27-41 Monk 42-50 Paladin 51-58 Psion 59-72 Ranger 73-78 Sorcerer 79-82 Swashbuckler 83-00 Wizard I also made a couple of minor changes. Anybody else?
timothyx 04-23-07, 10:25 PM	In my "world view of eberron", regarding Warforged, I figure 85% of them are either fighters or barbarians, with the remaining 15% being other classes, Rogues, Rangers, Artificers, Clerics, Paladins, Wizards, Barbarians etc.. Bards and druids I'm iffy on, it doesn't seem to me there would be a practical use for them in War, except the Bard... however I agree with the last year of the war/post they were set free, that they all just up and wandered around. the classes I think they should absolutely be disallowed from, are Sorcerer's, Favored Souls, and Warlocks. I'm taking it from the point of view that they are living constructs, and even though there were created by magic, I don't think they have that "piece" of divine or draconic or demonic heritage that could allow them to have a "soul" like the normal living races which breed, and have had any kind of lineage that would allow for such. Not to say, that somewhere down the road they couldn't, and not to say someone didn't use Dragonblood, or cast Divine spells, or used some Demonic artifact to instill life into them, I'm just saying, by and large, that those 3 classes and the flavor of them would to me, say ixnay in teh n'f'n'way. Imo, there aren't any warforged with NPC classes, Cannith simply wouldn't, and niether would any wizard/artificer with a half a brain (and they need thier brains) would create a Construct, and pay that much money, and put that much blood, sweat and tears to make a "commoner" or "adept". Later in life? meh, sounds hokey at best, but again, in my world view, meh. Thrane still uses their warforged as slaves? personally, makes me wonder how they manage it, but, whatever. I always thought the warforged needed an "asimov" kind of thing, or some sort of "control collar" from the get go. But that's a whole other ballgame. I mean would you really create an army of magical constructs made for killing without some sort of control?
yossarius 04-24-07, 05:20 PM	Thrane still uses their warforged as slaves? personally, makes me wonder how they manage it, but, whatever. I always thought the warforged needed an "asimov" kind of thing, or some sort of "control collar" from the get go. But that's a whole other ballgame. The key to understanding this is perhaps in undertsanding the slave mindset. Popular culture has taught us that every slave in the history of mankind has been a potential Sparticus, who only needed an opportunity to rise up and throw off his oppressive masters. The reality is that this just isn't true. That's not to say those individuals don't exist. Of course they do. But doesn;t it occur to you that there might be a significant portion of the warforged population that might have found the idea of freedom as daunting, and even intimidating? The idea that suddenly, every decision that needs to be made in your life, for the first time ever, must now be made by you, can be extremely intimidating. Especially if at no point in you life you have ever been prepared for that possibility. Also, maybe you are imposing a early 19th century southern US image of what "slavery" in Thrane might look like. Personally, I don't see an evil taskmaster with a whip following warforged around, beating them into subservience. In many cultures in real world history, if captured slaves escaped and tried to return to their communities, they were shunned, or even turned away, because it was considered dishonorable to run away. You might look at it from a similar attitude. The warforged involved might see it as simply an extension of their military service, and might see it as akin to desertion or mutiny if they tried to leave. Just some food for thought.
Cifer 04-24-07, 05:46 PM	There's a relatively simple reason for the success of Thranish WF-thralldom: The 'forged don't know freedom. They have never been free - why should they believe it to be better? And what is "better" anyway to a construct without basic human needs?
timothyx 04-24-07, 07:56 PM	There's a relatively simple reason for the success of Thranish WF-thralldom: The 'forged don't know freedom. They have never been free - why should they believe it to be better? And what is "better" anyway to a construct without basic human needs? I actually thought about it along both those lines right after I finished typing, but I didn't quite go far enough in my thought about it. And that line of reasoning, the whole "whats freedom?" and to put it into a earlier historical context would, by and large does make a lot more sense.
Splendide 04-25-07, 08:15 AM	While Warforged Artificers kick arse as PCs, I can't see why in-game Cannith would've made an obscenely disproportionate number of crafting warforged, when their stated intent was to create combat troops. Warmages are OK though.
Cifer 04-25-07, 09:44 AM	While Warforged Artificers kick arse as PCs, I can't see why in-game Cannith would've made an obscenely disproportionate number of crafting warforged, when their stated intent was to create combat troops. Why have modern armies medics? Cannith won't care so much about the crafting - it will say "Those guys can use Repair and all those cool infusions directly on the soldiers". Further, you'd need medics/mechanics anyway and if they aren't constructs, they'd just slow the unit down with all their pesky sleeping and eating.
Wizardman 04-25-07, 08:30 PM	My personal view is that "sanctioned" warforged (officially created by House Cannith) only have NPC levels if they multiclassed into them later in life. Upon creation, they were intended to be elite troops-- members of PC classes, in other words, and being literal blank slates makes training much easier than training people with experience. However, "unsanctioned" warforged (Merrix's creations, LoBster' creations, maybe the Psiforged) might have NPC class levels right off. The LoBster's won't, but Merrix's might, especially if he just drops them off in Sharn without having them trained first. He would probably have to, unless he can erase their memories without touching their skills.
Splendide 04-26-07, 01:19 AM	Why have modern armies medics? Cannith won't care so much about the crafting - it will say "Those guys can use Repair and all those cool infusions directly on the soldiers".Yeah, but using that chart provided a couple of posts ago, ~12% of Warforged would come up as Artificers...thats about one in every eight. Even if you look at them as medics, that proportion seems strangely high to me, especially given that any warforged fighter can take Craft as a class skill to do repairs. I doubt 1 in 8 humanoid troops are medics.
Evilmonster 04-26-07, 03:47 AM	They're more than just medics though. They can heal up the troops, sure. But you can give them a wand and make them into fire power. They can whip up their own scrolls for a variaty of battlefield uses and even act as support for 'normal' troops when equiped with scrolls or wands of Cure Light Wounds. I'd think 7 WF fighters backed up with 1 WF artificer would be quite an effective and lethal fighting force.
Splendide 04-26-07, 10:51 PM	I'm not disputing that in game terms it would be an effective and lethal fighting force. I'm disputing that Cannith would've known that when they started making warforged, considering artificers are seen in the world primarily as crafters, and warforged are designed to be combat troops.
Cifer 04-27-07, 08:13 AM	@Splendide We (you, Evilmonster and me) are just three people who had the idea that they might be effective when supported and we only have the few book articles that deal with WF - you think the teams of Cannith who more or less designed them didn't come upon the idea, especially since it's just "outsourcing" the need for an artificer in the unit? And about the craft skill, don't forget that WF are only fighter2. That would mean about a +6 bonus (5 ranks, 1 int bonus to reach int 13 for some fighter feats). Taking 10 would ensure exactly one point of damage healed per session. Of course, several warforged could heal a single one, but that would only work as long as less than half of them are damaged. Further, this would again induce downtime. An artificer, on the other hand time, could be carried in a kind of sedan chair by other WF to let him "rest" during the marching periods, something which would IMO be harder on human ones.
Splendide 04-27-07, 09:53 AM	@Splendide We (you, Evilmonster and me) are just three people who had the idea that they might be effective when supported and we only have the few book articles that deal with WF - you think the teams of Cannith who more or less designed them didn't come upon the idea, especially since it's just "outsourcing" the need for an artificer in the unit?You, Evilmonster and me are all privileged to have OOC information that Cannith wouldn't have access to. Thats my point. Like I said, one medic to every seven soldiers would be a hard product to sell to a nation that really just wants instant shock troops. These aren't nations with the luxury of time to build the most enduring, self-sustaining troops, they were all desperate for manpower, particularly Cyre as the home of Cannith. When countries are conscripting every man just to break even, they sure don't put as much emphasis on a luxurious number of new medics being trained...particularly not medics who can't keep the real people alive!
Cifer 04-27-07, 10:14 AM	You, Evilmonster and me are all privileged to have OOC information that Cannith wouldn't have access to. Tell me some of them. Does Cannith lack the knowledge about available artificer infusions? Do they lack the knowledge that an artificer can return one warforged per day from the brink of destruction to complete healthiness within three turns? The only thing we, as players and DMs, know about WF that Cannith doesn't is their origins, which are largely irrelevant for this discussion. Like I said, one medic to every seven soldiers would be a hard product to sell to a nation that really just wants instant shock troops. These aren't nations with the luxury of time to build the most enduring, self-sustaining troops, they were all desperate for manpower, particularly Cyre as the home of Cannith. The important thing to remember here is that we're not talking about modern medics who mainly patch up soldiers so they survive the way home. We're talking about spellcasters capable of instantly restoring someone to combatworthy status. Every one of them will directly increase the numbers of combatants available for the next fight (not next campaign, but next encounter) the first time he enters combat. And don't tell me they lack effectiveness in direct combat: Hand them a crossbow and tell them to use [whateveryoufightagainst]-Bane prior to engagement and they'll be the equal of any warforged fighter as long as they've got someone standing in front of them. Even if they cost five times as much as regular soldiers, I doubt they would be hard to sell.
timothyx 04-27-07, 02:29 PM	I think there would probably be 1 Artificer for every 20 WF fighters, maybe less, maybe more, it's unlike they really cared much further than, "they're constructs, when they fall, we pick them up later and patch them up.", and I would assume that the artificers they do have, would all be 3rd level or higher for extra infusions and perhaps even having wands to do the repair damage spell.
Cifer 04-27-07, 04:08 PM	@Timothyx It's unknown whether NPC warforged can be trained to an arbitrary number of levels. I went with second level since that would allow for about 4 infusions (1 bane +3 repair) and coincides nicely with the "elite" level 2 fighter WF. And I do think that "They're constructs, when they fall, we can just pick them up now and send them back to the fight" might have it's merits.
Cloud Divider 04-27-07, 05:00 PM	I guess I'll count myself among the minority - unless the WF in question is particularly exceptional (ie a Named NPC or PC), they've got NPC levels. The NPC Warforged my players encountered (who were working for the LoB) were Warriors (or Experts, for the scouty/thiefy types), with the exception of the unit commander (Ranger/Fighter) and his lieutenant (Rogue). Militarily, even if they're only Warrior 1 or 2s (compared to non-Warforged Warrior 1 or 2s), they're still substantially more effective. They don't have the same kind of logistical issues that mundane forces have (food, clean water), and they can maintain a march for subtantially longer periods of time. I would wager that the typical mode of employment for a WF unit (when fighting a conventional non-WF unit) would be to focus on the maneuver battle, and force the engagement when their opponents are weary from marching. When possible, I guess. Interestingly, they end up with roughly the same advantages of an undead army - no need for food, rest, etc. You lose a significant amount of that benefit if you need to have them supported by human (ie non-WF) forces that do have those needs. But that has to be weighed against the risks of not having organic oversight... So you may say, "But who repairs them in the field?" Like a typical military unit, there's probably a squad medic that has the Healing skill (at a minimum), or a wand of CLW and a few ranks of Use Magic Device. His equivalent in a WF-only unit has Craft/Repair and possibly a wand of Minor Repair and some UMD ranks. I doubt the typical Last War (platoon-level) unit had access to an Adept, let alone a full-up Cleric or Artificer. Buuut, I'm also one of those folks who reserve PC class levels for the PCs and significant NPCs. I'd set the demographics as: 40% Warrior 20% Expert 10% Other NPC (Adept?) 15% Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian 5% Artificer/Rogue 10% PC-Other (Cleric, Paladin, Monk, Sorceror or Wizard) So there you go...
Cifer 04-27-07, 05:36 PM	@Clouddivider Well, most people assume WF to be fighters because the Grandmaster Of The Setting, Keith Baker, said so. However, "unsanctioned" warforged (Merrix's creations, LoBster' creations, maybe the Psiforged) might have NPC class levels right off. The LoBster's won't, It would be a way to reflect the LoBster's problems with operating a damaged forge (probably without a mark even). but Merrix's might, especially if he just drops them off in Sharn without having them trained first. He would probably have to, unless he can erase their memories without touching their skills. It's freaking Merrix d'Cannith - if anyone has such control over WF, it would be him!
Cloud Divider 04-29-07, 06:59 AM	@Clouddivider Well, most people assume WF to be fighters because the Grandmaster Of The Setting, Keith Baker, said so. Perhaps so. It still doesn't change my dissenting opinion. Not like I've never disregarded canon before. If I were to spend more than a few minutes thinking about it (which is about all I did for that post of mine), I could probably come up with a more detailed model. And maybe I would increase the relative percentile of Fighters (though they still would be predominantly Warriors on the whole). But that's because I LIKE how the distinction between NPC- and PC-classed characters helps bring forth the larger-than-life feel of the heroes (and villains). YMMV, of course.