Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Need_A_Life 08-31-07, 02:12 PM	So, as the title suggests, I want to create a warforged follower of the Silver Flame. I made a quick-and-easy decision, that he'd be an old soldier from an outpost that hardly ever saw battle during the 16 years he served Thrane's military during the Last War. Now, it's hardly a stretch that he would've heard of the Silver Flame in a Thranish encampment, so that part came easy. Deciding to serve the Church, however, is something I find harder to justify. Warforged in Thrane are considered property, as they need to pay their creators for being made :rolleyes: and this warforged would be little different. However, assuming he could collect enough gold to pay off the 5-6k for his creation, would the Church of the Silver Flame even accept a warforged for a position as a knight or similar? There'd no doubt be a lot of racism (can one even use that word, since Warforged aren't a "race" per say?) and abuse, even from the good-aligned members of the Church, as all of them have lost loved ones to his kind. I have a few ideas in this regard, but I'd like a couple of ideas for what this could've been. I am using the working name "Faith" (open for change, though) and I'd also like a few ideas for how he could've earned this name from those around him. Thank you all in advance!
naturax 08-31-07, 02:54 PM	I'm also interested in hearing anyone's ideas. I've wanted to play a warforged paladin of the Silver Flame for a long time now but I haven't been able to think of a solid concept. The closest I've come is a warforged who wants to earn money through adventuring in order to buy off more warforged so that they can do the same and eventually earn the freedom of all the warforged in Thrane. How he'd be tied to the Silver Flame, and chosen by the Flame itself to be a paladin is something I haven't figured out yet.
Vharuck 08-31-07, 03:52 PM	He need not be accepted. The mortal church does not control the divine power. The entire Church of the Silver Flame could spit on your warforged in disgust, but as long as he adhered to the holy tenets and followed the path of righteousness and order, he could be a paladin.
Alex_ 08-31-07, 04:02 PM	So, as the title suggests, I want to create a warforged follower of the Silver Flame. I made a quick-and-easy decision, that he'd be an old soldier from an outpost that hardly ever saw battle during the 16 years he served Thrane's military during the Last War. Now, it's hardly a stretch that he would've heard of the Silver Flame in a Thranish encampment, so that part came easy. Deciding to serve the Church, however, is something I find harder to justify. Warforged in Thrane are considered property, as they need to pay their creators for being made :rolleyes: and this warforged would be little different. However, assuming he could collect enough gold to pay off the 5-6k for his creation, would the Church of the Silver Flame even accept a warforged for a position as a knight or similar? There'd no doubt be a lot of racism (can one even use that word, since Warforged aren't a "race" per say?) and abuse, even from the good-aligned members of the Church, as all of them have lost loved ones to his kind. I have a few ideas in this regard, but I'd like a couple of ideas for what this could've been. I am using the working name "Faith" (open for change, though) and I'd also like a few ideas for how he could've earned this name from those around him. Thank you all in advance! From the Warforged Dragonshard article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050711a)... The Church of the Silver Flame has much to offer the warforged. The Flame itself is not an anthropomorphic deity, and it is not supposed to have created or shaped human civilization. Instead, it can guide a warrior and empower her in the battle against evil. Warforged that fear death may take comfort in the concept of immortality through the Flame, since noble souls are said to bond with the Flame after death. Most importantly, the church is a militant order, and for the warforged soldier who feels lost without a war, the Church of the Silver Flame offers an anchor and a chance to take part in a battle that will never end -- the struggle against evil itself. Many in the church still feel that the warforged do not have souls and are not the equals of the true servants of the Flame. However, as more warforged join the church, cardinals, ministers, and templars alike are being impressed with the dedication and good works performed by these tireless servants of the light. One of the most prominent warforged followers of the Silver Flame is a warforged soldier named Brightspear (LG male personality warforged fighter 1/paladin 8). Built to serve Aundair in the Last War, Brightspear was rendered inert in a battle on the Eldeen border, but he was restored by a group of Silver Flame priests. Brightspear claimed to have heard the voice of the Flame while inert, calling him to serve, and he subsequently proved able to channel the power of the Flame to perform miracles. Over the past decade, he has battled undead, aberrations, and a host of other monsters; he is best known for uncovering a rakshasa assassin and killing the fiend in Aurala's court. Brightspear uses the warforged paladin substitution levels outlined in Races of Eberron. So it seems as if it's possible, but you'd very much have to prove yourself, which is as good a reason as any to adventure. Also, I don't think that Thrane (or Karrnath's) current indentured servitude system is as "bad" as it sounds at first. The Warforged were created to serve others, and an indentured servitude system probably works better for them from a psychological/emotional stand point as opposed to being tossed out into the world with no guidance or structure in their life. It's not like Warforged in other places are really any better off. They ultimately find themselves in the same menial positions/heavy labor jobs and face discrimination for various reasons as well. Only I'd imagine that Warforged under care of the state are looked after better than those left up to their own devices.
LoneStranger 08-31-07, 10:56 PM	I do think the Paladin concept is interesting, hopefully he can pay off his creation cost quickly to help out other Warforged sooner rather than later. As far as labor to pay back the cost of creation it was my impression that not only the government but wealthy individuals also had the Warforged under their thumb, probably lowballing them on the wages then forcing them to pay back "what they owe" out of what they do get. I dunno mebbe I just read it wrong.
mrockwell 09-04-07, 04:00 AM	I have a brief section in my novel, Legacy of Wolves, that deals with warforged followers of the Flame living in Angwar Keep (I've associated them with the Redeemed (Five Nations, pg 148). I hope to revisit them in another book, as I do think it's an interesting dynamic with a lot of potential for conflict.
Need_A_Life 09-04-07, 01:02 PM	*grumble* Yes, I should've probably said the following: I have read Players Guide to Eberron, Races of Eberron, Five Nations, Faiths of Eberron, Eberron Campaign Setting, the Dragonshard articles as well as Legacy of the Wolves before posting this. However (like people on these boards, apparently) there is a lack of examples of what sort of discrimination there would be for a Warforged with an actual connection to the Church of the Silver Flame. Now, it's quoting time: He need not be accepted. The mortal church does not control the divine power. The entire Church of the Silver Flame could spit on your warforged in disgust, but as long as he adhered to the holy tenets and followed the path of righteousness and order, he could be a paladin. Yes, but as I wrote in my post: "Deciding to serve the Church" and "would the Church of the Silver Flame even accept a warforged for a position as a knight or similar?" which makes your post a bit... irrelevant (sorry, if that comes off too harshly) They ultimately find themselves in the same menial positions/heavy labor jobs and face discrimination for various reasons as well. Only I'd imagine that Warforged under care of the state are looked after better than those left up to their own devices.I really wish this part had been longer and the Dragonshard article hadn't been the main part of the post. I really do. I'd love to see how warforged (those under the protection of CotSF and those without it) are treated from your POV, but while you mention it, there's no examples or even much to go after from this. I have a brief section in my novel, Legacy of Wolves, that deals with warforged followers of the Flame living in Angwar Keep (I've associated them with the Redeemed (Five Nations, pg 148). I hope to revisit them in another book, as I do think it's an interesting dynamic with a lot of potential for conflict. Though this post unfortunately gives me none of the information I would like, I would like to say (if you are really the author of Legacy of the Wolves), that I love your work. In fact, I love the entire Inquisitives series, though Legacy of the Wolves are (without a doubt) the best. Whether or not you're the author, if you really have some ideas for Warforged followers of the Silver Flame, I'd love to hear them (whether in this thread, over PM or MSN) and share my own views, should we have different views on the matter. --- So, thank you for your replies everyone, but I should've clarified what I was looking for. I am actually going to use this for a background story for this warforged character and would like some tips for what situations he'd be put in, the discrimination as well as what made people consider him a "good-guy paladin." Mechanics-wise, he's not a paladin (Crusader; ToB), though he'll introduce himself as one and will be a Knight Templar. So, while I don't mind you telling me stuff like "warforged can be paladins despite the closed-mindedness of certain Church officials" it's not what I'm looking for. Hoping for many new replies!
mrockwell 09-04-07, 08:21 PM	Though this post unfortunately gives me none of the information I would like, I would like to say (if you are really the author of Legacy of the Wolves), that I love your work. In fact, I love the entire Inquisitives series, though Legacy of the Wolves are (without a doubt) the best. Whether or not you're the author, if you really have some ideas for Warforged followers of the Silver Flame, I'd love to hear them (whether in this thread, over PM or MSN) and share my own views, should we have different views on the matter. LOL. Yes, I really am the author, as several old-timers on these boards can attest. And I'm glad you liked the book. As far as warforged followers of the Flame, one of the things I didn't get into in the book is why the Redeemed and their disciples were located in Angwar Keep (I did have the section written, but as I was already 7,000 words over my limit, it was one of the things that got cut). In my mind, they wouldn't be readily accepted by the general populace, and certainly not as an organized group. A virtually abandoned keep that no one really cared about seemed like the perfect place to set up a warforged "monastery" of sorts. It's out of the way, and the warforged have ostensibly sworn loyalty to Thrane, so they're tolerated, but I don't think you'd find a similar group in, say, Flamekeep. I also think if the population grows too large or the keep looks like it's being rebuilt a little too well, some people might feel the need to take action against the monks. Yes, warforged have been freed, and "officially" have souls, but I think it would be the same as if we suddenly learned our cars were sentient - most people wouldn't believe it. Even if they did, if the cars then started their own religious community, complete with drive-in churches - well, a lot of people might think that was blasphemous and want to see those cars in the junkyard. I imagine a lot of people in Thrane would feel the same way about warforged followers of the Flame, especially the "common" people. The above is in no way an official stance of WotC, BTW - just my own view on the situation. I'm sure other authors have other ideas. HTH Marcy
Ellorin 09-05-07, 03:56 AM	Does it have to be Thrane? The Church doesn't necessarily equal the state, and your warforged could just as well learn of the Silver Flame in another nation's camp, especially Aundair, where there is a strong presence of the Templars and the puritan faction too. If it has to be Thrane, you might consider entering the service of a noble or (more likely)a middle-to-high-ranking member of the Church. That way you might gain some grudging recognition and respect rather easier than acting as a completely autonomous individual.
Need_A_Life 09-06-07, 02:21 PM	LOL. Yes, I really am the author, as several old-timers on these boards can attest. And I'm glad you liked the book. As far as warforged followers of the Flame, one of the things I didn't get into in the book is why the Redeemed and their disciples were located in Angwar Keep (I did have the section written, but as I was already 7,000 words over my limit, it was one of the things that got cut). In my mind, they wouldn't be readily accepted by the general populace, and certainly not as an organized group. A virtually abandoned keep that no one really cared about seemed like the perfect place to set up a warforged "monastery" of sorts. It's out of the way, and the warforged have ostensibly sworn loyalty to Thrane, so they're tolerated, but I don't think you'd find a similar group in, say, Flamekeep. I also think if the population grows too large or the keep looks like it's being rebuilt a little too well, some people might feel the need to take action against the monks. Yes, warforged have been freed, and "officially" have souls, but I think it would be the same as if we suddenly learned our cars were sentient - most people wouldn't believe it. Even if they did, if the cars then started their own religious community, complete with drive-in churches - well, a lot of people might think that was blasphemous and want to see those cars in the junkyard. I imagine a lot of people in Thrane would feel the same way about warforged followers of the Flame, especially the "common" people. The above is in no way an official stance of WotC, BTW - just my own view on the situation. I'm sure other authors have other ideas. HTH Marcy Thank you very much, this was actually exactly what I needed to spark an idea. Would've loved to see what that passage about Angwar keep would've been had it not been cut. Thank you all for taking time to reply!
mrockwell 09-07-07, 12:24 AM	Thank you very much, this was actually exactly what I needed to spark an idea. Would've loved to see what that passage about Angwar keep would've been had it not been cut. Thank you all for taking time to reply! My pleasure. :) Maybe some day I'll get to do a "director' cut."
Fabius Maximus 10-21-07, 01:50 PM	*Casts Thread Resurrection* I have a similar problem as the OP, but I want to play a WF Cleric of the Flame rather than a Paladin. If I understood Faiths of Eberron correctly, priests have to attend a seminar to get the status as a priest, and those with spellcasting ability get trained there as well. But I'm not sure if the church would allow a WF into a seminar, even if he is sponsored by a priest. Any opinions?
Alex_ 10-21-07, 05:54 PM	*Casts Thread Resurrection* But I'm not sure if the church would allow a WF into a seminar, even if he is sponsored by a priest. Any opinions? I'm sure it's not something you see everyday, but if a Warforged shows great devotion to the faith, has a history of contributions to the church, and other things in their favor, I don't see why not. It's not that there's any kind of institutionalized anti-Warforged attitudes in the Church. They just kind of fly under everyone's radar, as the Flame (and all faiths and institutions) have spent the past few centuries concern themselves with the issues/needs/spirituality/etc of flesh and blood creatures.
Edymnion 10-21-07, 07:20 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=399755&p=5752641 :)
Fabius Maximus 10-22-07, 07:24 AM	Thanks, both of you. Ed, the story may fit a Paladin, as I see them discovering their abilities for themselves. I think clerical training, particularly in the Church of the Silver Flame, would be a more formalized affair. Even if some other cleric broke the rules and trained him, he would not be a member of the Church, without support in an hostile world. @Alex: While there may be no institutionalized measures against WF in the Church, WF are still considered property in Thrane. That's my main problem. Why would the Church allow someone in if he isn't thought of as a person?
Alex_ 10-22-07, 07:40 PM	@Alex: While there may be no institutionalized measures against WF in the Church, WF are still considered property in Thrane. That's my main problem. Why would the Church allow someone in if he isn't thought of as a person? Property of the Military/State. There's also the justification that they're paying off the debt they owe to the institution that paid to have them created. The Dragonmarked article also suggests growing numbers of Warforged in the Silver Flame. So while they aren't the equals of the other flesh and blood citizens, they're really more of a lower class/indentured servant/conscript soldier than subhuman or something like the African slave trade.
Fabius Maximus 10-23-07, 09:10 AM	Property of the Military/State. There's also the justification that they're paying off the debt they owe to the institution that paid to have them created. The Dragonmarked article also suggests growing numbers of Warforged in the Silver Flame. So while they aren't the equals of the other flesh and blood citizens, they're really more of a lower class/indentured servant/conscript soldier than subhuman or something like the African slave trade. Exactly. But would you let a thrall or serf get into a position of (considerable) power? I don't talk about lay worshippers or Paladins here, but about Clerics. I can see one way: the WF is so talented that the high-up's cannot let that talent go to waste and make an exception.
Alex_ 10-23-07, 06:40 PM	Clerics are not necessarily authority figures, let alone those of considerable power. You could simply be a lower ranking warrior, pilgrim, or missionary, with no congregation of your own, and nobody directly beneath you, aside for Warforged, who they hope you to convert. This has actually occured in real world history (Fr. Augustus Tolton). Of course, being a "freed" Warforged would certainly help.
Fabius Maximus 10-23-07, 07:21 PM	Clerics are automatically authority figures, at least in Thrane. By granting a warforged access to formal clerical training, you instantly raise his status in society. A status that is usually not available to others of his kind. Setting him on the path of a cleric, you have to take into consideration that he eventually may become more powerful and more renowned. There is political power behind that. I think I will run with the "talented" way described above, and add in that the higher-ups cannot allow him to discover that he can alter reality through his faith and devotion alone, thus becoming a spellcaster completely unattached to the Church as an organization. (That would be the Favoured Soul route.)
Edymnion 10-23-07, 09:50 PM	Thanks, both of you. Ed, the story may fit a Paladin, as I see them discovering their abilities for themselves. I think clerical training, particularly in the Church of the Silver Flame, would be a more formalized affair. Even if some other cleric broke the rules and trained him, he would not be a member of the Church, without support in an hostile world. @Alex: While there may be no institutionalized measures against WF in the Church, WF are still considered property in Thrane. That's my main problem. Why would the Church allow someone in if he isn't thought of as a person?See, I think the story works equally well for a Cleric. Don't forget that an Eberron cleric is *NOT* the same as a generic setting Cleric. Eberron Clerics fill the same roll in Eberron that Paladins do in other settings, as the heavily armed martial defenders of the faith. They have high hitpoints, heavy armor, access to good weapons, they're combat machines. A warforged could follow the same path as Crucible, and instead of answering the call of the Paladin (which is essentially an elite leader in Eberron), they instead answer the call of a Cleric, the default holy warrior of the setting. They basically just have more of a focus on the learning aspect (hence more skillpoints) and more mystical abilities, as opposed to pure combat prowess.
Salla 10-24-07, 01:18 AM	You can also worship the Silver Flame and get the clerical powers as appropriate from such without being a member of the church of the Silver Flame, too, as near as I can figure. You won't get any perks of association with the organization, but you won't have to deal with any red tape either. It doesn't matter if the Church of the Flame accepts a Warforged; the Flame itself will. :)
Fabius Maximus 10-24-07, 08:15 AM	@Ed: I still see Clerics as primary spellcasters, not as warriors. They can be warriors if they want to, but they don't have to. I know that the Church has a martial bend, but there are also rather mystcal factions in it, which appeal more to the character I have in mind. He also will have rather low physical stats, so combat isn't such a good option. (That's why he becomes a Cleric, not a Fighter or Paladin.) @Salla: I know. But in that case, I'd use the Favoured Soul class rather than the Cleric.
Vharuck 10-24-07, 02:51 PM	Must they be Thranish? Thrane would be a difficult place for a warforged to make any personal decision because of the indentured servitude. However, the Silver Flame isn't exclusive to Thrane. Aundair has a large number of Silver Flame worshippers, and warforged enjoy a lot of freedom in that country. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine a warforged becoming the priest of a small village if he were the most devout.
Alex_ 10-24-07, 05:17 PM	Clerics are automatically authority figures, at least in Thrane. No they aren't. Some Clerics in Thrane who worship the Silver Flame are members of the Church with official training and rank. Some aren't. "Cleric" is the metagame term used to describe the player class, and is not used in the Church of the Silver Flame to describe a particular rank or role in the church. They have different nomenclature for "men of the cloth" like Bishop, Priest, Pilgrim, etc. Similar to how a Templar of the Silver Flame describes all holy warriors, including, but not limited to Warriors, Paladins, Clerics, and Fighters. By granting a warforged access to formal clerical training, you instantly raise his status in society. A status that is usually not available to others of his kind. Setting him on the path of a cleric, you have to take into consideration that he eventually may become more powerful and more renowned. There is political power behind that. Which is why it isn't done everyday, with every Warforged. Your character could even be the first. However, there are times both in heroic tales, and in real world history, where people from lower class backgrounds, disparaged minorities, and unlikely origins can manage advance to a "higher station" in spite of a system that doesn't seem interested in helping them (or even largely works against them).
Fabius Maximus 10-26-07, 06:57 PM	@Vharuk: Yes. His origin is actually part of the appeal. @Alex: I'm aware of the distinction between the classes and the EB-description of Church members. But the paragraph "Becoming A Priest" in Faiths of Eberron clearly says that official priests of the Flame have to undergo said training, and if they show "propensity for adept or cleric magic, or the calling of the paladin." Sure, I don't have to do it by the book. But it fits. All the religions in the book require would-be priests to have some kind of tutelage. If they don't have it, it takes them longer to acquire the necessary knowledge. That's why many NPC divine spellcasters dedicated to the Dragon Below or the Dark Six have levels in another class. It would be very unusual for an autodidact to start as a cleric as level one. Also, there is the problem with ressources. You have to have access to holy texts and depictions of ceremonies to learn from. I don't think Flame priests let them lie around for anyone to read, at least not the more advanced ones. Additionally, the few sermons priests speak are usually read in draconic, and how many people can speak that language? So the only lane my character can follow is being an exception, as I said before.
Alex_ 10-26-07, 08:46 PM	@Alex: I'm aware of the distinction between the classes and the EB-description of Church members. But the paragraph "Becoming A Priest" in Faiths of Eberron clearly says that official priests of the Flame have to undergo said training, and if they show "propensity for adept or cleric magic, or the calling of the paladin." "...her training focuses in those areas as well." Is how it ends. What it shows is that the training doesn't make people into Clerics, Adepts, or Paladins. It merely comments that if they're discovered to have those abilities, they receive additional training. It's not suggested that you have to have gone through official Priest training to have levels in Cleric, Adept, or Paladin. Sure, I don't have to do it by the book. But it fits. All the religions in the book require would-be priests to have some kind of tutelage. If they don't have it, it takes them longer to acquire the necessary knowledge. That's why many NPC divine spellcasters dedicated to the Dragon Below or the Dark Six have levels in another class. It would be very unusual for an autodidact to start as a cleric as level one. None of the religions mention formal training as a requirement to gaining levels in Divine Spellcasting classes dedicated to a certain deity. Only if you want to be considered an "official" clergyman with some kind of "official" recognition. Yes it would be unusual for NPCs to start as level one Clerics. That's why it really only happens amongst exceptional individuals like PCs and other noteworthy individuals. Very rare are the campaigns where the DM requires players to take a level of an NPC or non-spell casting class to represent their earlier life. Also, there is the problem with ressources. You have to have access to holy texts and depictions of ceremonies to learn from. I don't think Flame priests let them lie around for anyone to read, at least not the more advanced ones. Additionally, the few sermons priests speak are usually read in draconic, and how many people can speak that language? Or the Flame itself simply speaks to and empowers exceptional people (a very common theme). Not enough information to take a lot of ranks in Knowledge (religion), but more than enough to channel divine energy to perform a miracle, heal wounds, or turn undead.
Neutronium_Dragon 10-29-07, 01:03 AM	Keep in mind that, prejudiced or not, if the warforged is already displaying at least some propensity for miracle-working (spellcasting, or turning, or whatever), he might get accepted into the seminary despite their reluctance. The church needs every templar it can get, enough so that their misgivings towards other races have already been conveniently overlooked when it was sufficiently beneficial to do so (such as with some shifters).
ChaoticGood 10-29-07, 01:07 AM	Besides echoing the idea that "Silver Flame clerics need not reside in Thrane," I'd also like to point out that "Silver Flame clerics need not belong to the Church of the Silver Flame." The Flame has appeared to many species in many ways throughout the history of Eberron, from the couatls of legend to the orcs and half-orcs of the Demon Wastes. It could very well be that your warforged has heard his calling through some other, lesser-known Silver Flame tradition.