Where is the Third Head? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Where is the Third Head? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edymnion
11-11-07, 08:31 PM Something that came to me while I was reading DoE.
In Areneal, there is a mountain in the shape of a gigantic dragon's head that they refer to as the Face of Eberron. We also have a mountain in Khovaire that is carved into a face, with rumors that it was carved from an even larger sculpture that was there since the beginning of time (or whatever).

So, we've got two giant mountain faces, one dragon, one which may have been a dragon, on a continent which bears the only living beings to manifest dragonmarks. Can we say Face of Siberys?

So, does that mean somewhere there is a third face, the Face of Khyber, somewhere down in the depths?
Lancer2010
11-11-07, 09:45 PM Intriguiging...

I like the idea of a massive stalagmite/stalactite (always forget which one hangs down from the ceiling) that's being worshipped by some Cult of the Dragon Below is pretty cool.
Yakman
11-11-07, 10:15 PM Difference is that Khyber, theoretically, is still alive and thrashing around down there. His head would bite ;)
Edymnion
11-12-07, 08:43 AM Difference is that Khyber, theoretically, is still alive and thrashing around down there. His head would bite ;)Yup. His *three mile long* head.
Anybody wanna do an estimate on the size of those teeth?

Heh, I'm getting Star Wars flashbacks.
ChaoticGood
11-12-07, 10:40 AM Interesting that you should say that, as I recently had my PCs explore an underwater grotto in the Dagger River that served as a temple to an aboleth-worshipping Cult of the Dragon Below. The submerged entrance to the cave complex was, as you mentioned, in the shape of a dragon's head.

If I were going for the Three Heads idea, though, I'd probably do the same thing, except put it in the Shadow Marches or possibly Xen'drik.

On the other hand, unless I've missed something, the Second Head that you're referring to is the face of a Dwarven king in the Mror Holds which, lo and behold just happens to be featured in the artwork that I use as my avatar. If that's the case, then I don't really see this as a very strong argument. The mountain may have been carved from an older statuary, but I don't think there's any evidence that it was a dragon, or in fact, anything non-humanoid.
larry_the_titan
11-12-07, 12:32 PM Can we say Face of Siberys?

So, does that mean somewhere there is a third face, the Face of Khyber, somewhere down in the depths?

Maybe a chance that the old Face that was destroyed wasn't Siberys but really Khyber. Thought to be destroyed during an Earthquake. Which can now be found within a huge cavern complex underground near the same location. Sibery's might be best represented by a Star constellation that has appeared to move.

Being that the three beings have only been describe as dragons but I have let to be given a description beyond they are beyond collosal in scale. Has there been any change to this?
I can not even begin to fathom what Khyber, Eberron or Sibery appearence might be.
Edymnion
11-13-07, 12:03 PM If I were going for the Three Heads idea, though, I'd probably do the same thing, except put it in the Shadow Marches or possibly Xen'drik.Honestly, if it were on the surface, I'd put it in Xen'Drik. One face on each continent, sans Sarlona, where the prophesy holds no sway. Perhaps the reason the prophecy works is because the heads of the progenitor wyrms are on those continents.On the other hand, unless I've missed something, the Second Head that you're referring to is the face of a Dwarven king in the Mror Holds which, lo and behold just happens to be featured in the artwork that I use as my avatar. If that's the case, then I don't really see this as a very strong argument. The mountain may have been carved from an older statuary, but I don't think there's any evidence that it was a dragon, or in fact, anything non-humanoid.Thats the head, and there is no evidence that the older carving (if there was one) wasn't draconic. I rather like the idea that it was another head like the Face of Eberron, which was perhaps damaged at some point (maybe demons use it's snout for artillery practice ;)), which left chunks in roughly the right places for the dwarves to refine into the face we see today.

Sort of like how the head of the sphinx in the real world was carved down from a much older lion's head.
Fabius Maximus
11-13-07, 06:21 PM James Wyatt describes a giant head of a dragon that lies underground in his new novel. But that's not canon, naturally.
ChaoticGood
11-15-07, 01:10 AM I rather like the idea that it was another head like the Face of Eberron, which was perhaps damaged at some point (maybe demons use it's snout for artillery practice ;)), which left chunks in roughly the right places for the dwarves to refine into the face we see today.

Don't get me wrong, Edy, I think it's a great idea... I just think it might be a hard sell to certain players. ;)

And I thought Xen'drik, too, and for much the same reason, but I went with the Shadow Marches because:

1. That also leaves out Argonessen, where the Prophecy holds quite a lot of sway... so that sort of nixes the "why not Sarlona?" theory.

2. Dragonmarks don't manifest on Xen'drik, nor on Argonessen. They do manifest on both Khorvaire and Aerenal.

3. The Shadow Marches are at the opposite end of the continent from your proposed Head of Siberys (diametrically opposed), and that is also where the largest concentrations of Khyber cultists can be found.
Edymnion
11-15-07, 01:14 PM 1. That also leaves out Argonessen, where the Prophecy holds quite a lot of sway... so that sort of nixes the "why not Sarlona?" theory.Argonessen already has the Face of Eberron.
2. Dragonmarks don't manifest on Xen'drik, nor on Argonessen. They do manifest on both Khorvaire and Aerenal.Didn't say they did, I said that if it was the Face of Siberys in Khovaire, that might be the reason why dragonmarks appear only there. The other two heads could grant different boons.
elondir
11-15-07, 01:47 PM I estimate that the progenitors are about 21.5 miles long. Not too shabby for titanic megafauna, although Spelljammer had creatures ten thousand miles tall.

Typical dragons double in size every three age categories. For epic dragons each age category is 5 HD. Prismatic dragons reach colossal at 48 HD, so let's use that as a minimum value for estimating the HD of one of these things. 21.5 miles is about 2/3 of the way from macro-colossal to macro-titanic, so let's assume it's macro-colossal with an extra virtual age category. It's 11 size categories larger than colossal, giving it 33 virtual age categories over an adult prismatic dragon. 33x5 = 165, plus the base 48 HD gives an estimate of a 213 HD dragon. Following the CR adjustments and starting at CR 39 for an adult prismatic dragon, we find that they should be in the ballpark of CR 138 (following standard rules).
eehamburg
11-15-07, 03:05 PM I estimate that the progenitors are about 21.5 miles long. Not too shabby for titanic megafauna, although Spelljammer had creatures ten thousand miles tall.
Not to get too far off of topic, but to satisfy my curiosity ... what creatures are you referring to?
ieattrollsforbreakfast
11-19-07, 08:35 AM The Face of Mror might well have been the Face of Siberys, since Khorvaire is where the dragonmarks are manifest. However, at the beginning of time (or at least, a short time after), Khorvaire was the stronghold of the fiends. So perhaps the Mrorian face was in fact the Face of Khyber.

That leaves us with the Face of Siberys, but as we all know Siberys is dead, shattered into millions of pieces by Khyber. It appears that Xen'drik has some favour with the Dragon Above, since it is where most of the Siberys dragonshards fall. So we need to find a huge, Siberys-related artifact in Xen'drik. The only one I can think of is the Heart of Siberys. That would give us:

Face of Eberron in Argonnessen
Face of Khyber in Khorvaire
Heart of Siberys in Xen'drik

It's a bit more of a stretch than having a Face of Khyber in Khyber, I'll admit, but it is just one more possibility!
elondir
11-19-07, 02:08 PM Not to get too far off of topic, but to satisfy my curiosity ... what creatures are you referring to?

Khyber, Siberys, and Eberron, if their heads were three miles long, then if they follow normal dragon proportions, then they would have been 21.5 miles long each.
eehamburg
11-19-07, 02:29 PM Khyber, Siberys, and Eberron, if their heads were three miles long, then if they follow normal dragon proportions, then they would have been 21.5 miles long each.
That is not what I meant ... I was referring to the spelljammer creatures that you were referring to ... what are they?
elondir
11-19-07, 05:06 PM Oh. In the Cloakmaster Cycle Book III: The Maelstrom's Eye. There is also mention of huge creatures in the Lorebook of the Void. And MC9 had a dragon that was 100 miles long or so, and a huge whale.
Isran_Imrador
11-26-07, 07:17 AM The Hearth of Siberys is on Xen`drik in the Dragonshard PC game.
Forged
12-03-07, 04:51 PM Inside the Demon Wastes is an area called The Lair of the Keeper, now its not stated that it is in the shape of a face, but it is meant to be known as a way into Khyber. As apart of your campaign you could say that it is the face of Khyber or simply the equivalent of the other dragons representation upon the world.

Also, it is interesting to note that Eberron and Siberys are the dragons that became the outside world while Khyber was trapped beneath Eberron and there for may not have it's "face" on the land but somewhere beneath it.
Edymnion
12-05-07, 09:02 PM The Hearth of Siberys is on Xen`drik in the Dragonshard PC game.I pretend that game doesn't exist, since it has nothing to do with Eberron besides a few place names.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
12-07-07, 07:10 AM I pretend that game doesn't exist, since it has nothing to do with Eberron besides a few place names.

The Heart of Siberys is established outside the lore of the game, so it is something to consider.
Having thought about it, though, I don't think it fits as well as having the face of Siberys on Khorvaire and Khyber's underground.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 11-11-07, 08:31 PM	Something that came to me while I was reading DoE. In Areneal, there is a mountain in the shape of a gigantic dragon's head that they refer to as the Face of Eberron. We also have a mountain in Khovaire that is carved into a face, with rumors that it was carved from an even larger sculpture that was there since the beginning of time (or whatever). So, we've got two giant mountain faces, one dragon, one which may have been a dragon, on a continent which bears the only living beings to manifest dragonmarks. Can we say Face of Siberys? So, does that mean somewhere there is a third face, the Face of Khyber, somewhere down in the depths?
Lancer2010 11-11-07, 09:45 PM	Intriguiging... I like the idea of a massive stalagmite/stalactite (always forget which one hangs down from the ceiling) that's being worshipped by some Cult of the Dragon Below is pretty cool.
Yakman 11-11-07, 10:15 PM	Difference is that Khyber, theoretically, is still alive and thrashing around down there. His head would bite ;)
Edymnion 11-12-07, 08:43 AM	Difference is that Khyber, theoretically, is still alive and thrashing around down there. His head would bite ;)Yup. His three mile long head. Anybody wanna do an estimate on the size of those teeth? Heh, I'm getting Star Wars flashbacks.
ChaoticGood 11-12-07, 10:40 AM	Interesting that you should say that, as I recently had my PCs explore an underwater grotto in the Dagger River that served as a temple to an aboleth-worshipping Cult of the Dragon Below. The submerged entrance to the cave complex was, as you mentioned, in the shape of a dragon's head. If I were going for the Three Heads idea, though, I'd probably do the same thing, except put it in the Shadow Marches or possibly Xen'drik. On the other hand, unless I've missed something, the Second Head that you're referring to is the face of a Dwarven king in the Mror Holds which, lo and behold just happens to be featured in the artwork that I use as my avatar. If that's the case, then I don't really see this as a very strong argument. The mountain may have been carved from an older statuary, but I don't think there's any evidence that it was a dragon, or in fact, anything non-humanoid.
larry_the_titan 11-12-07, 12:32 PM	Can we say Face of Siberys? So, does that mean somewhere there is a third face, the Face of Khyber, somewhere down in the depths? Maybe a chance that the old Face that was destroyed wasn't Siberys but really Khyber. Thought to be destroyed during an Earthquake. Which can now be found within a huge cavern complex underground near the same location. Sibery's might be best represented by a Star constellation that has appeared to move. Being that the three beings have only been describe as dragons but I have let to be given a description beyond they are beyond collosal in scale. Has there been any change to this? I can not even begin to fathom what Khyber, Eberron or Sibery appearence might be.
Edymnion 11-13-07, 12:03 PM	If I were going for the Three Heads idea, though, I'd probably do the same thing, except put it in the Shadow Marches or possibly Xen'drik.Honestly, if it were on the surface, I'd put it in Xen'Drik. One face on each continent, sans Sarlona, where the prophesy holds no sway. Perhaps the reason the prophecy works is because the heads of the progenitor wyrms are on those continents.On the other hand, unless I've missed something, the Second Head that you're referring to is the face of a Dwarven king in the Mror Holds which, lo and behold just happens to be featured in the artwork that I use as my avatar. If that's the case, then I don't really see this as a very strong argument. The mountain may have been carved from an older statuary, but I don't think there's any evidence that it was a dragon, or in fact, anything non-humanoid.Thats the head, and there is no evidence that the older carving (if there was one) wasn't draconic. I rather like the idea that it was another head like the Face of Eberron, which was perhaps damaged at some point (maybe demons use it's snout for artillery practice ;)), which left chunks in roughly the right places for the dwarves to refine into the face we see today. Sort of like how the head of the sphinx in the real world was carved down from a much older lion's head.
Fabius Maximus 11-13-07, 06:21 PM	James Wyatt describes a giant head of a dragon that lies underground in his new novel. But that's not canon, naturally.
ChaoticGood 11-15-07, 01:10 AM	I rather like the idea that it was another head like the Face of Eberron, which was perhaps damaged at some point (maybe demons use it's snout for artillery practice ;)), which left chunks in roughly the right places for the dwarves to refine into the face we see today. Don't get me wrong, Edy, I think it's a great idea... I just think it might be a hard sell to certain players. ;) And I thought Xen'drik, too, and for much the same reason, but I went with the Shadow Marches because: 1. That also leaves out Argonessen, where the Prophecy holds quite a lot of sway... so that sort of nixes the "why not Sarlona?" theory. 2. Dragonmarks don't manifest on Xen'drik, nor on Argonessen. They do manifest on both Khorvaire and Aerenal. 3. The Shadow Marches are at the opposite end of the continent from your proposed Head of Siberys (diametrically opposed), and that is also where the largest concentrations of Khyber cultists can be found.
Edymnion 11-15-07, 01:14 PM	1. That also leaves out Argonessen, where the Prophecy holds quite a lot of sway... so that sort of nixes the "why not Sarlona?" theory.Argonessen already has the Face of Eberron. 2. Dragonmarks don't manifest on Xen'drik, nor on Argonessen. They do manifest on both Khorvaire and Aerenal.Didn't say they did, I said that if it was the Face of Siberys in Khovaire, that might be the reason why dragonmarks appear only there. The other two heads could grant different boons.
elondir 11-15-07, 01:47 PM	I estimate that the progenitors are about 21.5 miles long. Not too shabby for titanic megafauna, although Spelljammer had creatures ten thousand miles tall. Typical dragons double in size every three age categories. For epic dragons each age category is 5 HD. Prismatic dragons reach colossal at 48 HD, so let's use that as a minimum value for estimating the HD of one of these things. 21.5 miles is about 2/3 of the way from macro-colossal to macro-titanic, so let's assume it's macro-colossal with an extra virtual age category. It's 11 size categories larger than colossal, giving it 33 virtual age categories over an adult prismatic dragon. 33x5 = 165, plus the base 48 HD gives an estimate of a 213 HD dragon. Following the CR adjustments and starting at CR 39 for an adult prismatic dragon, we find that they should be in the ballpark of CR 138 (following standard rules).
eehamburg 11-15-07, 03:05 PM	I estimate that the progenitors are about 21.5 miles long. Not too shabby for titanic megafauna, although Spelljammer had creatures ten thousand miles tall. Not to get too far off of topic, but to satisfy my curiosity ... what creatures are you referring to?
ieattrollsforbreakfast 11-19-07, 08:35 AM	The Face of Mror might well have been the Face of Siberys, since Khorvaire is where the dragonmarks are manifest. However, at the beginning of time (or at least, a short time after), Khorvaire was the stronghold of the fiends. So perhaps the Mrorian face was in fact the Face of Khyber. That leaves us with the Face of Siberys, but as we all know Siberys is dead, shattered into millions of pieces by Khyber. It appears that Xen'drik has some favour with the Dragon Above, since it is where most of the Siberys dragonshards fall. So we need to find a huge, Siberys-related artifact in Xen'drik. The only one I can think of is the Heart of Siberys. That would give us: Face of Eberron in Argonnessen Face of Khyber in Khorvaire Heart of Siberys in Xen'drik It's a bit more of a stretch than having a Face of Khyber in Khyber, I'll admit, but it is just one more possibility!
elondir 11-19-07, 02:08 PM	Not to get too far off of topic, but to satisfy my curiosity ... what creatures are you referring to? Khyber, Siberys, and Eberron, if their heads were three miles long, then if they follow normal dragon proportions, then they would have been 21.5 miles long each.
eehamburg 11-19-07, 02:29 PM	Khyber, Siberys, and Eberron, if their heads were three miles long, then if they follow normal dragon proportions, then they would have been 21.5 miles long each. That is not what I meant ... I was referring to the spelljammer creatures that you were referring to ... what are they?
elondir 11-19-07, 05:06 PM	Oh. In the Cloakmaster Cycle Book III: The Maelstrom's Eye. There is also mention of huge creatures in the Lorebook of the Void. And MC9 had a dragon that was 100 miles long or so, and a huge whale.
Isran_Imrador 11-26-07, 07:17 AM	The Hearth of Siberys is on Xen`drik in the Dragonshard PC game.
Forged 12-03-07, 04:51 PM	Inside the Demon Wastes is an area called The Lair of the Keeper, now its not stated that it is in the shape of a face, but it is meant to be known as a way into Khyber. As apart of your campaign you could say that it is the face of Khyber or simply the equivalent of the other dragons representation upon the world. Also, it is interesting to note that Eberron and Siberys are the dragons that became the outside world while Khyber was trapped beneath Eberron and there for may not have it's "face" on the land but somewhere beneath it.
Edymnion 12-05-07, 09:02 PM	The Hearth of Siberys is on Xen`drik in the Dragonshard PC game.I pretend that game doesn't exist, since it has nothing to do with Eberron besides a few place names.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-07-07, 07:10 AM	I pretend that game doesn't exist, since it has nothing to do with Eberron besides a few place names. The Heart of Siberys is established outside the lore of the game, so it is something to consider. Having thought about it, though, I don't think it fits as well as having the face of Siberys on Khorvaire and Khyber's underground.