Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edark 05-16-07, 05:10 PM	Correct me if Iīm wrong. Vol forced King Kaius of Karnath (when he was Kaius I) to kill his wife. But if he was the king, he had enough resources to cast, at least, resurrection on his wife. Why you think he didnīt?
OctaviusIII 05-16-07, 05:14 PM	IIRC, resurrection in Eberron doesn't work the same way it does elsewhere. You need to send a party to Dolurrh to find the soul of the person that needs resurrection and then take it back. Not only is there the danger of the soul fading into a shade before you can find it but there is also the danger of the party itself succumbing to Dolurrh's effects. A dangerous quest, to be sure, and possibly outside Kaius's abilities to send while keeping quiet from Vol.
Edark 05-16-07, 05:23 PM	IIRC, resurrection in Eberron doesn't work the same way it does elsewhere. You need to send a party to Dolurrh to find the soul of the person that needs resurrection and then take it back. Not only is there the danger of the soul fading into a shade before you can find it but there is also the danger of the party itself succumbing to Dolurrh's effects. A dangerous quest, to be sure, and possibly outside Kaius's abilities to send while keeping quiet from Vol. Very interesting. In which book may I find more information about resurrection in Eberron? In EBCS is just said that high level spells and resurrections are less accesible than in other campaing settings. And by the way, what IIRC means? Thanks.
OctaviusIII 05-16-07, 05:31 PM	Looks like our house rules have Dolurrh as remote, which certainly does make things more interesting. See the ECS p. 95.
Edark 05-16-07, 05:48 PM	I agree that is much more interesting, but also very difficult for non high level players to preserve their loved characters. In our campaign, players have to get material resources or meet the correct people whith the correct reasons to resurrect a fallen partner. Back to Kaius; anyway, I like the idea of Dolurrh as remote when Kaius kills his wife and the hand of Vol to avoid resurrection. That can explain the question.
Edymnion 05-16-07, 05:49 PM	Yes, all you have to do is have Dolurrh be remote when it happens, and have it STAY remote until the time period for ressurection has passed.
Dragom 05-16-07, 06:15 PM	Maybe she refused to return to a world where her love and killer remained a blood crazed monster? Could put a damper on the romance.
Lucas_Garczewski 05-16-07, 06:17 PM	There is another, much more universal problem with resurrection (i.e. not limited to Eberron). Namely, the soul of the deceased person has to be *willing*, it has to have a reason to return to life. Now... Aside from wanting to take revenge on her husband who had her killed, why the devil would she want to come back? :)
Dragom 05-16-07, 06:23 PM	Could you imagine the situation of the Jarosco Halfling, slumped over an Altar of resurection as Kaius demands yet another attempt? Having to turn to Kaius and explain that maybe she doesn't want to come back? Oh, the slapping and the negative levels that would ensue.
Melvin the Mediocre 05-16-07, 06:29 PM	Could you imagine the situation of the Jarosco Halfling, slumped over an Altar of resurection as Kaius demands yet another attempt? Having to turn to Kaius and explain that maybe she doesn't want to come back? Oh, the slapping and the negative levels that would ensue. But on the plus side - hey vampiric halflings!
Edymnion 05-16-07, 06:49 PM	There is another, much more universal problem with resurrection (i.e. not limited to Eberron). Namely, the soul of the deceased person has to be *willing*, it has to have a reason to return to life. Now... Aside from wanting to take revenge on her husband who had her killed, why the devil would she want to come back? :)And lets not forget that Dolurrh has the Minor Entrapment effect. Be definition, NONE of them actually WANT to come back.
Kreistor2 05-16-07, 07:33 PM	And lets not forget that Dolurrh has the Minor Entrapment effect. Be definition, NONE of them actually WANT to come back. That takes time, Edy. It's not an instantaneous effect: at best, it takes 24 hours since you make the save at the conclusion of the day. High Wis casters can resist quite a while.
Edymnion 05-16-07, 08:36 PM	That takes time, Edy. It's not an instantaneous effect: at best, it takes 24 hours since you make the save at the conclusion of the day. High Wis casters can resist quite a while.Yeah, but just how many high level characters do you find in Eberron? And remember, Kiaus was in a blood rage when he killed his wife, he didn't come to his senses until later. Plenty of wiggle room to say that the misses failed her check.
AkumaDaimyo 05-16-07, 10:32 PM	Where does it specifically say you have to go to Dulruh and get the soul? I just see in most books that it just costs a lot and even then it's not a matter of just throwing money at people. You have to be important and their will probably be money AND favors involved. It's not the realms with their MMO style approach to ressurection.
mhacdebhandia 05-17-07, 12:53 AM	You have to go to Dolurrh to get the soul when that plane is remote. Page 95 of the Eberron Campaign Setting: When Dolurrh is remote, spells that bring back the dead do not function . . . Only by journeying to Dolurrh . . . finding the soul of the deceased, and bringing it back to the Material Plane can a deceased character be returned to life during this period. So the relevance here is that it's easy to explain why Kaius didn't have his wife resurrected: Dolurrh was remote, and he couldn't get there.
Ellorin 05-17-07, 03:16 AM	He could be afraid of revealing his nature in the process to at least one quite powerful caster, too...not to mention that walls always have ears.
AkumaDaimyo 05-17-07, 03:32 AM	You guys made it sound like you ALWAYS had to go get the soul at all times.
Edark 05-17-07, 05:41 AM	Maybe she refused to return to a world where her love and killer remained a blood crazed monster? Could put a damper on the romance. Could you imagine the situation of the Jarosco Halfling, slumped over an Altar of resurection as Kaius demands yet another attempt? Having to turn to Kaius and explain that maybe she doesn't want to come back? I preffer this explanation. Is the simplest and the one with more human charge. The idea of Kaius exploding in fury when he meets the truth is great.
AkumaDaimyo 05-17-07, 06:04 AM	You assume his wife COULD be rezed though. There are certain conditions where you can't be rezzed, willing or not you know. I think being level drained into negatives might be one of them. :P
Cifer 05-17-07, 07:25 AM	I think being level drained into negatives might be one of them. It isn't one of them. Being drained into the negatives would turn you into a vampire (spawn). As soon as you're slain, you can respond to ressurection (though not to raise dead) without problems. Ressurection doesn't work when there's no part of the body available (not even a hair or some ash from the cremation) or the body's soul is entrapped or destroyed. Vol might have Trapped The Soul to ensure Kaius' loyalty, though.
Kreistor2 05-17-07, 09:41 AM	Yeah, but just how many high level characters do you find in Eberron? In Khorvaire, not so much. But in all of Eberron? Sarlona has 20th level Psions running around creating Teleport Circles. The restriction on NPC's of high level is to increase the importance of the PC's: they don't have Elminster to worry about... or turn to if things go bad. There's nothing wrong with high level characters -- you can have them where a story needs them. They just shouldn't be the type of person the PC's can expect help from whenever they feel like it. There's a place for everything in Eberron.
Vharuck 05-17-07, 10:25 AM	This is like cheating on one's wife; it's hard for one to even make eye contact with the wife, let alone be happy together again. Except, in the case of Kaius, much much worse. He might've been very ashamed of what he had done, and his shame kept him from bringing back the last person he wanted to deal with at the time.
Nived 05-17-07, 11:09 AM	Hrm.... why didn't she come back as a spawn? Forgive me I haven't read Five Nations in awhile, but lets put aside Res for a second and wonder why she's not a spawn. Perhaps after Kauis did it he didn't want to have her come back as a spawn, dismembered her to keep her from rising from the grave, such actions make it harder to Resurrect. Or purhaps, when trying to res his wife something went wrong. I know there's a table or chart somewhere that talks about Raise Dead and Ressurect goign wrong, like getting the wrong soul to come back. Or maybe he attracted the wrong kind of attention. Kauis furiously beating said Jorasco healer, "TRY AGAIN!" Only so many ressurection attempts attract the attention of a Marut. Plane shift vampire on inevitable brawl (Kauis won of course but still doesn't get his wife)
Edymnion 05-17-07, 12:23 PM	You guys made it sound like you ALWAYS had to go get the soul at all times.Because its "a good thing". Means dying is something to actively avoid, instead of just thinking of it as a minor setback.Ressurection doesn't work when there's no part of the body available (not even a hair or some ash from the cremation) or the body's soul is entrapped or destroyed. Vol might have Trapped The Soul to ensure Kaius' loyalty, though.There's another idea. What if the Keeper got her?Hrm.... why didn't she come back as a spawn? Forgive me I haven't read Five Nations in awhile, but lets put aside Res for a second and wonder why she's not a spawn.I don't remember, but I don't think it specifically says that he killed her via his drain ability, just that he killed her. Being killed by a vampire isn't enough to rise as spawn, you specifically have to be drained to death, maybe he just beat her to death the old fashioned way.
Nived 05-17-07, 12:37 PM	True. Though I still like the idea od Kauis and a Marut dukeing it out in the castle having been blocked from bringing her back.
Vharuck 05-17-07, 01:22 PM	True. Though I still like the idea od Kauis and a Marut dukeing it out in the castle having been blocked from bringing her back. That is a good idea. Maybe Kaius continues to attempt to rescue his wife, each time being stopped by the same Marut. And each time, he tries to see if this fight will yield his victory. Have it be an annual thing.
Lord_Madrigan 05-17-07, 11:24 PM	Vol could have made arrangements as well. 1) Her soul was killed along with her body. 2) Her soul is trapped in a gem that is in Vol's possesion, to further keep Kaius under her rotting thumb. 3) Kaius has Resurrected his wife and she ends up dying shortly after every time she is raised. [even vol needs a hobby] 4) Kaius's wife is raised but she did not comeback whole a doll of flesh and blood with few memories and no real will of her own.
Ellorin 05-18-07, 03:45 AM	For another Vol arrangement, suppose that she made an undead of her and gave her a certain view of the events. A vengeful weapon, one that will stop at nothing to avenge the "traitorous" Kaius, oblivious of who really wronged her.
DwarfPcfan 05-18-07, 07:14 PM	Uh guys, Kaius is currently married to another woman, Queen Etrigani, a elf from Aerenal. ECS states that she knows he's a vampire and that even as an Aerenal, she accepts it and does love him. Simply, maybe the reason he did'nt raise his previous wife was in the line of something like this: "Kaius: Oh well, it was an arranged marriage anyway, and being a vampire, I would have had to get rid of her eventually. after all, no one wants to have an old and weak wife siting right next to you on the throne, too many people might start putting two and two together, when you're supposed to be the same age Years past, diplomatic mission from Aerenal comes to Karnath. Kaius: Hum elves, looks like my bed problem might just have been solved..." Hard and cold but seems like a logical conclusion
Lord_Madrigan 05-18-07, 11:54 PM	Uh guys, Kaius is currently married to another woman, Queen Etrigani, a elf from Aerenal. ECS states that she knows he's a vampire and that even as an Aerenal, she accepts it and does love him. Oh sure Spoil our fun.:weep:
AkumaDaimyo 05-19-07, 03:38 AM	Because its "a good thing". Means dying is something to actively avoid, instead of just thinking of it as a minor setback. No, not a good thing if the DM is always being a jerk, screwing over his players. Death is already something to be avoided in Eberron considering the fact of how few people can bring you back in the first place, added to the fact that they won't just do it for money being thrown at them. You have to be somebody important and even if they do it your still going to owe them something most likely. So no, you don't need a frankly untalented and unfair DM always saying that Doluruh or however it's spelled is always far away. That kind of BS will catch up with him and he'll be DMing for himself.
OctaviusIII 05-19-07, 04:49 AM	Meh, our misreading of Dolurrh has worked well so far. Then again, our DM has been rather lenient as far as "canon" goes. I'm playing a warforged with a syberis mark of passage that was given to him by a couatl with the prophecy that he will save the world. When he died I was going to reroll, but my DM took my idea that instead, the couatl shunted me back into a new warforged body that had just been made. My brush with death, though, made me a warlock instead of a fighter. Every one of us is an exception to the rules in some way. If he's a jerk though, no part of the game is that much fun. Death would be just one of those things that isn't fun.
Edymnion 05-19-07, 01:04 PM	4) Kaius's wife is raised but she did not comeback whole a doll of flesh and blood with few memories and no real will of her own.Actually, I kind of like that, in a sick demented kind of way. That he did have her ressurected, but it had been too long. What made her her had already been stripped away by Dolurrh, and Kaius forcibly ripped what was left back to the mortal plane. She's alive, technically, but basically as a waking vegitative state. She has no mind of her own, cannot feed or care for herself, or anything else. A constant reminder that there are just some things that are outside of our power to control, and that we should just accept that which we cannot change.Simply, maybe the reason he did'nt raise his previous wife was in the line of something like this: "Kaius: Oh well, it was an arranged marriage anyway, and being a vampire, I would have had to get rid of her eventually. after all, no one wants to have an old and weak wife siting right next to you on the throne, too many people might start putting two and two together, when you're supposed to be the same age Years past, diplomatic mission from Aerenal comes to Karnath. Kaius: Hum elves, looks like my bed problem might just have been solved..." Hard and cold but seems like a logical conclusionExcept that we have in the books, that it was his rage and mourning over the loss of his wife that turned him against Vol and made him turn the Blood into an outlawed religion in Karnnath. Just because he eventually remarried doesn't mean he loved his first wife any less, as any widower can attest to.
DwarfPcfan 05-19-07, 05:42 PM	True Edymnion, maybe he still does love his wife. Maybe he did try to have her raised and for whatever reason it failed... But after he met queen Etrigani, he found someone else to love and moved on... Oh sappy endings where would we be without you. Actually that gives me an idea for a campaign... "runs down to his Dm cave to write some notes"
Teron Gorefiend 05-21-07, 12:48 AM	Many of you seem to be overlooking the simplest explanation: people are scared of raising the dead, and don't often even consider it. Divine magic is a lot more mysterious than arcane magic, and even its practitioners don't usually dare meddle with death. Most characters who can do it at all (and bear in mind that high-level characters in Khorvaire tend to be "excentric" if not outright villainous) would only consider it legitimate and safe to raise a champion of their faith or somesuch - and even so, there'd be holy quests to undertake and what not in exchange. Maruts, if you want to go that way, are a strong, tangible deterrent; even if their interventions are rare, just a few of them in the past would have made clerics keenly aware that there are powerful forces out there that object to souls being pulled from Dolurrh willy-nilly. By the way, Edymnion, I'm sure you know the entrapment mechanic is only meant to apply to visitors to Dolurrh; deceased souls are essentially trapped automatically but can be shaken out of it by a raising or resurrection spell cast within the time given in the spell descriptions.
grifo 05-22-07, 08:41 AM	i think you are all overlooking a very basic and understandable reason to this question - religion. in eberron resurrection is not something you automaticly think about when a loved one dies. death is accepted as apart of life, a part which is unavoidable. kaius may be a vampire but he still has religious beliefs that tell him that as painful as it is she is where she belongs.
Cifer 05-22-07, 05:54 PM	kaius may be a vampire but he still has religious beliefs that tell him that as painful as it is she is where she belongs. Does he? I can't really see a religious figure entering into a pact with Vol and her necromancer buddies. No, Kaius doesn't seem very troubled by religion IMO (ok, Vol does trouble him, but that's something else).
dunkeykong 05-22-07, 06:04 PM	Why didnīt Kaius resurrected his wife? It all boils down to one simple thing... PLOT thats the same reason the enterprise moves as fast as it needs to and the same reason that encounter you should have beaten railroaded your ass and you got knocked out and woke up in the BBEG's dungeon.
Vharuck 05-22-07, 06:06 PM	Why didnīt Kaius resurrected his wife? It all boils down to one simple thing... PLOT thats the same reason the enterprise moves as fast as it needs to and the same reason that encounter you should have beaten railroaded your ass and you got knocked out and woke up in the BBEG's dungeon. Sadly (or appropriately), Deus ex Machina doesn't fly too well with today's readers.
Kinger 05-22-07, 06:58 PM	One further thing to consider: Kaius I is Kaius III. His first wife was married to Kaius I, and this new elf is married to Kaius III. Maybe Kaius DID have his wife resurrected, but she'd be dead now anyway. And the young King of Karrnath can't be a bachelor, now can he?
Edymnion 05-22-07, 09:56 PM	Why didnīt Kaius resurrected his wife? It all boils down to one simple thing... PLOT thats the same reason the enterprise moves as fast as it needs to and the same reason that encounter you should have beaten railroaded your ass and you got knocked out and woke up in the BBEG's dungeon.Well, of course thats the *REAL* answer. Its the same reason why the LoBster wants to destroy all humanoids. But "because the plot device said so" isn't a very good answer when you're trying to find motivation and fill in backstory. Just ask any DM who's player turns in a character background where he just so happens to have a Holy Avenger. "He just does" typically doesn't go over very well.
ArcTan 05-23-07, 12:55 AM	Well, of course thats the *REAL* answer. Its the same reason why the LoBster wants to destroy all humanoids. But "because the plot device said so" isn't a very good answer when you're trying to find motivation and fill in backstory. To be fair, the plot doesn't actually say that. Insofar as there's been a plot so far, the plot says the Lord of Blades has some sort of nebulous "plans", that he has a lot of warforged working on these plans, that these plans frequently threaten the interests of the Five Nations and whatever white-hat organizations the PCs work for, that he doesn't really care if various innocent humanoids die in the process of carrying out these plans, and therefore you'll end up fighting his forces a lot. The *theory* that his plans involve destroying all humanoid life is just that, a theory. We haven't received one single shred of evidence -- in the form of actual stuff that's actually supposed to have happened in the setting books, or even in anything that actually happens in any of the published adventures -- that his plans *actually* involve genocide. For all we know he's conducting a desperate battle to stop the Dreaming Dark, or he's going to lead a mass exodus of all warforged onto another plane, or he's fighting a terribly misunderstood war merely to keep the warforged free and give them a place to live where they can be enfranchised. *Or* he's going to put all humanoids to a bloody and horrible death by the sword. Or turn everyone into a warforged and grant them the gift of immortality encased in steel whether they want it or not. Or blow up the entire world, warforged included, because he's deep down just a really crazy guy. Or who knows? Which is why it's cool, frankly.
dunkeykong 05-24-07, 12:26 AM	Just ask any DM who's player turns in a character background where he just so happens to have a Holy Avenger. "He just does" typically doesn't go over very well. I cant think of a better reason to have one. As always, Edy jumps in and is right. Not that im complaining, but im not sure if we could figure things without Edy.
Just another user 05-24-07, 05:53 AM	All of you is forgetting the obvious. It happened a long time ago, they was still using 2nd edition rules then and she failed her system shock check. :) :P
ijason 05-28-07, 10:13 PM	I think you may be overlooking an easy, character-driven explanation here. It's in 3 parts. 1) Guilt - Kaius may not have been able to force himself to face his wife and try to explain/apologize for the monster he'd become. 2) Fear - What if he brought her back and she didn't forgive him? She'd know what he was, and if she hated him for what he'd done/become, then what? He probably figured he wouldn't be able to bring himself to kill her again, which is what would have been required to keep himself alive in that circumstance. Different, but related - what if Vol had her killed again, or worse, brought back as Undead to oppose him? 3) Love - if you knew you were going to live forever (or at least a REALLY long time), would you want to see the person you loved most in the world whither away and die before your eyes? Especially knowing how hard it was for him the first time she died, would he want to go through that again? Conversely, would he want to put her through that? Living the lie with him? Possible Bonus Reasons (too weak to be considered alone, but could combine with any/all of the above): 4) Too Busy - he WAS fighting for his life, and the life of his kingdom, against Vol and co. 5) Rage - At himself (he didn't deserve to have her back), at Vol, at the unfairness of life, perhaps at the gods he'd believed in, but which had apparently failed him (how else to explain his current state?). At any number of people, for any number of reasons, really. Just some thoughts.