Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jpasimio 03-11-07, 12:31 AM	All my players had a blast. It seems like the characters were exceptionally colorful this time. The only flaw that I found was the huge read-aloud section. Has anyone thought of a solution to this? My thoughts were: 1.) Paraphrase the whole thing role-playing each of the NPCs yourself. This seems like it would be a lot of extra work on the DMs part, but would be very beneficial to players. 2.) Make a players packet. Players would have to read the whole introduction ahead of time. This would save a lot of time at the beginning of the adventure, but it makes it less fun since PCs will not be able to interact during the discussion. Any thoughts?
Butterface 03-11-07, 01:14 AM	That was my only complaint about this mod as well. It was so good, yet soo much read aloud. Still, my players said this was their favorite mod to date from XE.
Peter_Seckler 03-11-07, 12:20 PM	I'm pretty sure that paraphrase-in-character bit is what our DM did do at DDXP. He didn't read it off the page, for the most part, he did it interactively and in character. I thought he was extremely well-prepared and I was very impressed. So Kudos to that guy!
lordtiberiusfoxx 03-11-07, 06:31 PM	I thought the read aloud section was fine. By interacting with the players and using good voice, I was able to keep them paying attention. The one time that their attention strayed, I got to berate them and intimidate them into paying attention as their superior officer. ;) The main combat was my big complaint, not to give spoilers away. I just really recommend having an asst dm/battlemaster as well as cards with stats of all participants before the game to help keep track of everyone. Otherwise, stupid minis combat interferes with actual roleplaying time. Don't get me wrong though, it is a fun mod and I'm going to have fun running it again. :D
JJeff 03-11-07, 08:37 PM	I agree. The sheer size requires lots of help and planning. My game over ran by a LOT.... I was tired. The players were tired... and the end didn't help their mood much...
Jpasimio 03-11-07, 10:24 PM	Well... since I have some DMs participating in discussion I'll throw a few more thoughts in. <<<<<<<SPOILER ALERT>>>>>>>>>>> kinda Here are a few interesting scenarios that I would like to have better planned for next time I run this adventure. 1.) My PCs kept trying to seduce the Ebon Siren. In the interest of keeping this a family friendly game, I won't allow that. How can I tell my changeling rogue with +15 Diplomacy that she is not interested? 2.) The PCs keep trying to burn the ship BEFORE the pirates get there. Even if the pirates arrive and save them, the encounter where they convince the Siren to burn it down doesn't happen. 3.) The main event has 3 seperate battles going on: Main deck, forecastle, and sterncastle. These areas are all connected and the battle on the main deck bled into the other two. Any management tips? 4.) My players' EV is now up to 6350. Does this include their Blackwheel Bonus and their rank bonus obtained this adventure?
kiddoc 03-13-07, 11:58 AM	All my players had a blast. It seems like the characters were exceptionally colorful this time. The only flaw that I found was the huge read-aloud section. Has anyone thought of a solution to this? My thoughts were: 1.) Paraphrase the whole thing role-playing each of the NPCs yourself. This seems like it would be a lot of extra work on the DMs part, but would be very beneficial to players. 2.) Make a players packet. Players would have to read the whole introduction ahead of time. This would save a lot of time at the beginning of the adventure, but it makes it less fun since PCs will not be able to interact during the discussion. Any thoughts? Both are great ideas. I'll pay more attention to number 2 in the future. Even so, I would miss out on the fun of that roleplay. It IS a crazy amount of box text--nevertheless, I love going over that with my players, it's a joy as a DM--but I ALWAYS employ strategy #1--which I'll make a note to add in my "Troubleshooting" section at the beginning of a mod. I always make sure to hit the key mission parameters, but just like anything in an adventure, I feel like the DM should use his instincts and go with what he feels at the time. The combat is big too. I think in the Troubleshooting section I made note of some ideas. I personally used a quick ref index card for each, and had them all go on the same init count (pirates together, elves together). They did a lot of swinging at each other, which I kept to about 2 seconds per activation. Believe me, I hate that current D&D mechanics make larger combats more difficult for DM's--but I'm not going to let that stop me. Every fight can't be 6 on 1 or 6 on 6. Pirates don't come in ones, or in sixes. ;) I'll be sure and pay more attention to giving a combat script and some pre-made cheat sheets next time for DM's when I do larger scale combats. :D Thanks for all the suggestions!
kiddoc 03-13-07, 12:03 PM	Well... since I have some DMs participating in discussion I'll throw a few more thoughts in. <<<<<<<SPOILER ALERT>>>>>>>>>>> kinda Here are a few interesting scenarios that I would like to have better planned for next time I run this adventure. 1.) My PCs kept trying to seduce the Ebon Siren. In the interest of keeping this a family friendly game, I won't allow that. How can I tell my changeling rogue with +15 Diplomacy that she is not interested? 2.) The PCs keep trying to burn the ship BEFORE the pirates get there. Even if the pirates arrive and save them, the encounter where they convince the Siren to burn it down doesn't happen. 3.) The main event has 3 seperate battles going on: Main deck, forecastle, and sterncastle. These areas are all connected and the battle on the main deck bled into the other two. Any management tips? 4.) My players' EV is now up to 6350. Does this include their Blackwheel Bonus and their rank bonus obtained this adventure? 1) Easy. A successful diplomacy check doesn't mean an open invitation for romance. Do you even know the Ebon Siren's gender preference? :P All a diplomacy check does is give the potential for changing her attitude. Charisma isn't a sure sign of success. Besides, she's a pretty high level NPC--I could see her resisting the wiles of even the most charming rogue. Unless of course she really is interested. Like the way a black widow would be... :schemes: 2) Uh. Where do the PC's go? Just sit tight as the ship burns around them? That's why every party of 5 gnolls needs somebody that can succeed on a Wisdom or Intelligence check :P Burning ship while standing on it = bad. On the other hand, if they do it right before or during the fight--well, then it burns. There's nothing that says the ship can't go down to Davy Jones Locker, you'd just have to improvise her little speech a bit. 3) I treat them as separate encounters--I should have made that more clear. 4) That depends on if/how/when they were entered into the database. It should.
lordtiberiusfoxx 03-13-07, 01:52 PM	Well... since I have some DMs participating in discussion I'll throw a few more thoughts in. <<<<<<<SPOILER ALERT>>>>>>>>>>> kinda Here are a few interesting scenarios that I would like to have better planned for next time I run this adventure. 1.) My PCs kept trying to seduce the Ebon Siren. In the interest of keeping this a family friendly game, I won't allow that. How can I tell my changeling rogue with +15 Diplomacy that she is not interested? 2.) The PCs keep trying to burn the ship BEFORE the pirates get there. Even if the pirates arrive and save them, the encounter where they convince the Siren to burn it down doesn't happen. 3.) The main event has 3 seperate battles going on: Main deck, forecastle, and sterncastle. These areas are all connected and the battle on the main deck bled into the other two. Any management tips? 4.) My players' EV is now up to 6350. Does this include their Blackwheel Bonus and their rank bonus obtained this adventure? 1. At my table there was a male drow who was obviously slack jawed at the Ebon Siren. She, of course, used this to her advantage by licking his cheek, at which point the PC never argued with her again, despite not getting into her pants. 2. Kudos to your table. 3. After I run this a second time with an Asst DM, I'll let you know if this goes any better. I'm also going to see about pre-drawing the maps on cut-away sections if at all possible in addition to stat cards for all mooks.
lordtiberiusfoxx 03-26-07, 12:47 PM	As promised, here is the experience from running BWC4 the second time around. This time I had an asst DM, pre-drawn maps, and stat cards for all the mooks. Rounds of combat went a little smoother, however I don't know by how much because the PCs were not aggressive due to the fact that they did not want to be on shakey moral ground. However, the asst DM and I were able to run two sets of mooks at once and it cycled through rounds smoother. If you can, tell them to roll hit and damage dice at once. My table was a little green, so it took constant reminders. Alignment issues were the big problem at the table, with the LG marshall putting the elves in his aura and giving them DR so they wouldn't die as easily. I was bemused, but it made for looooooong drawn out combat.
Randall Montgomery 03-26-07, 01:28 PM	My table had it a little easier in this case, as alignment was simply not an issue. We have only 1 good character in our group, with the rest of us neutral, and the good guy didn't put up much of an argument seeing as the elves immediately tried to kill him. My own character is LN, and dosen't really care who she has to kill if her orders indicate they have to die (though she will always try to talk her way out if her orders allow it). This allowed us to completely focus our attention on the combat, and earned us quite a reputation with the pirates (I'll be expecting some appropriate modifiers when next we meet). :) Joe Stalsberg aka Marksman Alexia d'Tharashk, Blackwheel Company
Madfox11 03-27-07, 07:40 AM	Yeah, great adventure (and :thumbsup: to whomever came with the idea of airdrops), and my DM did not just read-aloud the boxed texts. The meeting was an interactive thing. Remember, boxed texts are not laws set in stone. They can and should be changed dependent on the situation. I was glad though the party consisted mostly of neutral people. Definitely don't play this one with a paladin! Well... since I have some DMs participating in discussion I'll throw a few more thoughts in. <<<<<<<SPOILER ALERT>>>>>>>>>>> kinda Here are a few interesting scenarios that I would like to have better planned for next time I run this adventure. 1.) My PCs kept trying to seduce the Ebon Siren. In the interest of keeping this a family friendly game, I won't allow that. How can I tell my changeling rogue with +15 Diplomacy that she is not interested? Lol... when I played it with my marshal/fighter of house Deneith it actually was the other way around. We made a good impression during the fighting, even going so far as to use Intimidate and Bluff to appear to look tougher and nastier than we were (most of us were neutral, so we did the killing, but we did not really enjoy it). Of course, I also rolled a 20 on the subsequent Diplomacy check to convince her to burn down the ship. The result was that she was interested in my character while my character was abolutely not interested. Was rather fun... In any event, even in a family friendly game you can play around with 'romance' and 'seduction'. You just need to be careful how you do it. Even in fairy tales aimed at children the prince kisses the princess ;) 3.) The main event has 3 seperate battles going on: Main deck, forecastle, and sterncastle. These areas are all connected and the battle on the main deck bled into the other two. Any management tips? My DM split up the battle in three parts, and we choose one side. He winged the others with a quick description, making it appear it went well as long as we were doing well. On our side there were only a couple of pirates and he just flipped a few dice. It really didn't surprise us the pirates actually focussed on us instead of the pirates. We were much more effective, and we used Intimidate to actually draw away their attention. (I really loved the scene where the gnoll nearly went into fight with one of the pirates who was claiming 'his prey' ;) ). 4.) My players' EV is now up to 6350. Does this include their Blackwheel Bonus and their rank bonus obtained this adventure? I don't think the EV includes story awards. It definitely does not include the standard Blackwheel Bonus (unless I am completely misremembering things).
bertman4 04-03-07, 04:41 PM	If you can, tell them to roll hit and damage dice at once. My table was a little green, so it took constant reminders. You shouldn't do that in Eberron because they may want to roll an action point. Bertman
Madfox11 04-04-07, 04:27 AM	In which case they need to reroll the damage. Sometimes this results in a bit of meta-gaming, but most players are adult enough about it not to do so and if it does anything it is adding the ability to spend an action point to reroll damage. The downside is just not as bad as the benefit of increased speed.
FaintestInkling 04-08-07, 12:13 AM	I just ran BWC-04, and here are my thoughts (MANY SPOILERS): (1) As said above, read-alout text was way too long, but I realized this ahead of time and shortened much of it. Here is an article by Jesse Decker and David Noonan describing the "MEGO" problem. Basically, any text longer than about two lines and "my eyes glaze over." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20050916a Much of the descriptions of vessels and NPCs honestly could be heavily parsed to take up considerably less space and time. (2) My players had a lot of trouble---not unreasonably---with the adventure's end. There were, bluntly put, far, far too many "this must happen because this must happen" moments in this adventure. The text seems to indicate that the Ebon Siren is simply immune to Bluff? Apparently even that used by a high-Cha character under an Cha-enhancing marshal aura and using glibness? When she has no ranks in Sense Motive and Wisdom 8? Considerably more problematically---what was the GM to do if the players quite reasonably were suspicious of the Ebon Siren at the end of the adventure? What if the artificer has his homonculus hide outside of the PCs' cabin door, so the party knows when they are being locked in? What if a character who hardly needs to sleep (or doesn't need to sleep) sits at the door and listens and is either very good at Listening or gets a critical success as the debris is moved outside of the door or the door is locked? The PCs rush out---and defeat the pirates immediately. Say in one round? Even if it was immediately after the pirates were going about the process of barracading the PCs in, are we to believe that the pirates are already irrevocably into seizing the airship? What if the PCs respond by trying to capture the pirate ship while the pirates attack the airship? We are to assume there are enough pirates left behind to prevent this from happening? (It is established that the Siren herself is up flying around ...) In short, even 4th level characters are reasonably capable of doing things in this adventure which the only way the DM can stop them is by saying, "You can't do that." I'm sure I will hear all kinds of arguments about how a good DM can prevent these things from happening, but that is simply not true. The impression my players got is like one of those video games where you build up your character to be really awesome, but then in a cinema scene, the villain can just snatch his girlfriend away from him or kill his mentor or something like that, even though normally he's super-responsive and fast, but the plot of the game requires that event to occur, so that's the way it goes. Don't get me wrong, the overall idea was great, and they did really enjoy the first half of the adventure .... the real "sour taste" the ending leaves in one's mouth isn't because of the nature of the "failure" but because the PCs were forced to feel like they couldn't do anything, even though they arguably ought to have been able to. At the very least, it seems like suspicious PCs could have escaped and tried to warn the airship as it approached. (Perhaps using a potion of fly themselves?) My players wanted to do something like this, and I basically told them, the way this adventure works, the best you can do is save some of the crew members, so we'll just count you as having done that ....
kiddoc 04-08-07, 08:35 PM	I just ran BWC-04, and here are my thoughts (MANY SPOILERS): (1) As said above, read-alout text was way too long, but I realized this ahead of time and shortened much of it. Here is an article by Jesse Decker and David Noonan describing the "MEGO" problem. Basically, any text longer than about two lines and "my eyes glaze over." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20050916a Much of the descriptions of vessels and NPCs honestly could be heavily parsed to take up considerably less space and time. (2) My players had a lot of trouble---not unreasonably---with the adventure's end. There were, bluntly put, far, far too many "this must happen because this must happen" moments in this adventure. The text seems to indicate that the Ebon Siren is simply immune to Bluff? Apparently even that used by a high-Cha character under an Cha-enhancing marshal aura and using glibness? When she has no ranks in Sense Motive and Wisdom 8? Considerably more problematically---what was the GM to do if the players quite reasonably were suspicious of the Ebon Siren at the end of the adventure? What if the artificer has his homonculus hide outside of the PCs' cabin door, so the party knows when they are being locked in? What if a character who hardly needs to sleep (or doesn't need to sleep) sits at the door and listens and is either very good at Listening or gets a critical success as the debris is moved outside of the door or the door is locked? The PCs rush out---and defeat the pirates immediately. Say in one round? Even if it was immediately after the pirates were going about the process of barracading the PCs in, are we to believe that the pirates are already irrevocably into seizing the airship? What if the PCs respond by trying to capture the pirate ship while the pirates attack the airship? We are to assume there are enough pirates left behind to prevent this from happening? (It is established that the Siren herself is up flying around ...) In short, even 4th level characters are reasonably capable of doing things in this adventure which the only way the DM can stop them is by saying, "You can't do that." I'm sure I will hear all kinds of arguments about how a good DM can prevent these things from happening, but that is simply not true. The impression my players got is like one of those video games where you build up your character to be really awesome, but then in a cinema scene, the villain can just snatch his girlfriend away from him or kill his mentor or something like that, even though normally he's super-responsive and fast, but the plot of the game requires that event to occur, so that's the way it goes. Don't get me wrong, the overall idea was great, and they did really enjoy the first half of the adventure .... the real "sour taste" the ending leaves in one's mouth isn't because of the nature of the "failure" but because the PCs were forced to feel like they couldn't do anything, even though they arguably ought to have been able to. At the very least, it seems like suspicious PCs could have escaped and tried to warn the airship as it approached. (Perhaps using a potion of fly themselves?) My players wanted to do something like this, and I basically told them, the way this adventure works, the best you can do is save some of the crew members, so we'll just count you as having done that .... FI, thanks for the comments amigo. They're going in my writer's notebook. I don't turn away any criticism, but I'll give you some insight into my thinking at least, however flawed it may be. :P I know all about the "MEGO" article. It was quoted to me as scripture when I got this job. That's precisely the reason I took what I needed from it, and then ignored it. I've ribbed both Jesse and Dave about it in person, and they're unlikely to change my view. I'm a bit of a troublemaker here, you'll see that. The old way the RPGA did things didn't really appeal to me, mostly because I didn't know about it or understand it. So I'm the rule-breaker here. I'm just scared of a world where roleplaying is reduced to two sentence descriptions of anything. If I'm to believe that players lack the intelligence or attention span to be engaged for more than two lines (however valuable I find Dave & Jesse's research), then I'm playing the wrong game. Before you lies the ultimate of villians, you've worked your whole campaign to meet, whose vast plans and schemes have dogged you at every step, the mighty dracolich of flaming drowning aberrant doom! And now I get two sentences to describe it. And then what, two sentences of dialogue? Heh. We can spend a straight hour on a 3 round combat, but I have 12 seconds of dialogue before we go "MEGO." Well, that I DO pin on the DM. I agree with Jesse and Dave, if YOU (the DM) can't make something interesting enough that people don't fall asleep after two sentences then DON'T. Obey the MEGO rule at all costs. WoTC will love saving on the printing costs! If you can't make read aloud text dynamic or interesting, ditto with dialogue, definately DO keep it short. It's not the text that players are interested in, it's the approach, the purpose, and the delivery. Which brings up a good point. My adventures aren't gospel, they're just guidelines. I've got no problem if you've got a bunch of MEGO-prone players, cut the whole box text down to two sentences. You may lose some flavor, but hey, at least you can save that time for the combat (I know, that one was a bear! Bad Kiddoc w/ mass combat :D ). Seriously, adlib, make stuff up, just make it work for you. My goal in writing that was to convey a sense of continuity. My characters get personalities and flesh and feeling. It takes more than two sentences for me to do it, probably because I'm just vociferous (garrulous?) by nature. ;) From there you get some drama, and some fluff, and some confusion, and some color... and oh yeah, mission parameters. If you're going straight wham, bam, just give them the mission parameters. Do whatever you need to do to make it work for your party. I do know that combat was messy. I just couldn't have pirate ship boarding that had 6 pirates and 6 defenders. Snooze. I should have put in about that "take one at a time" and "roll all together" bits. But, that's why I have the writer's journal, it already went in there. Next mass combat will feel less uh... mass...ive. :D Ebon Siren--Don't remember making her immune to Bluff. My only goals were to convey her as brutal, elusive, and oh yeah, to make sure she survives for the 6 other adventures she'll be in. Other than that, do whatever you want with her. Bluff away. Again, the text really is just a guideline. BWC -04 is a MONSTER in length. WoTC already hates my PPA (pages per adventure) because kinkos murders us on it at Con's. Even the best DM can't account for everything--that's what I love about this game--your players should ALWAYS surprise you. It wouldn't be any fun if they just followed the adventure blindly. But, I can't account for one of a possible billion human interactions. If you get the flavor of the Ebon Siren, you play her out anyway you want, so long as she survives until the next adventure. Finally, I complete agree that the end was a bit "forced." I wanted to accomplish 2 things: 1) A sense of tragedy. In my experience you can do this 3 ways: make the characters super emotionally connected (I tried, but that just leads to that stupid box text problem), make the encounter too difficult for the PC's to overcome (we call that LGR... oh wait... uh TPK), or do a bit of shoehorning. Sure the PC's are powerful actors, but in the world, sometimes bad things just happen you can't prevent. In a story, sometimes I just need the absolute out. It's not the best way, but it's a way. I understood what I was giving up by choosing it--which leads me to point 2. 2) We have a cohesive, overarching storyline that runs both within and between factions. This ending was necessary for the guidance of the storyline in both. I can't explain more for spoiler reasons. In each of the faction adventures sometimes bad things happen the PC's can't prevent, the releasing of shadow beasts, destruction of HQ's, capture of NPC's, deaths of NPC's. No matter what the case, we all have a story flowchart that develops. The players determine what happens within the flowchart, but we can't have infinite outcomes (heh, the adventure question guys would love that--Fill in the blank!). We have some plot points that have to stick, sometimes those require a bit of forcing. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you guys, but I'm always taking suggestions for how to make it better. Shoot me a PM with ideas about that (in case we have to discuss spoilers), and I'll be happy to add them to my repetiore. Anyhow, thanks again for those comments. BWC-04 was a blast to write. I loved the concept and the angle, and the interaction at every of the 40 tables of I've run has been hilarious. I always agree that the execution could be better, and I've got my eye on some future improvements. :)
lordtiberiusfoxx 04-09-07, 10:24 PM	2) We have a cohesive, overarching storyline that runs both within and between factions. This ending was necessary for the guidance of the storyline in both. I can't explain more for spoiler reasons. In each of the faction adventures sometimes bad things happen the PC's can't prevent, the releasing of shadow beasts, destruction of HQ's, capture of NPC's, deaths of NPC's. No matter what the case, we all have a story flowchart that develops. The players determine what happens within the flowchart, but we can't have infinite outcomes (heh, the adventure question guys would love that--Fill in the blank!). We have some plot points that have to stick, sometimes those require a bit of forcing. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you guys, but I'm always taking suggestions for how to make it better. Shoot me a PM with ideas about that (in case we have to discuss spoilers), and I'll be happy to add them to my repetiore. Mad libs adventures! Mad libs adventures! C'mon, you know you want to! Its not like it hasn't been done before... the basic D&D box set from the early 80s with the red dragon's lair on the cover had a fill-in module in it.
Istaran 05-07-07, 10:29 PM	Mad libs adventures! Mad libs adventures! C'mon, you know you want to! They'd be like.. DM's Marks with some more guidance?
lseelba 05-10-07, 03:48 AM	FI, thanks for the comments amigo. They're going in my writer's notebook. (snip) Anyhow, thanks again for those comments. BWC-04 was a blast to write. I loved the concept and the angle, and the interaction at every of the 40 tables of I've run has been hilarious. I always agree that the execution could be better, and I've got my eye on some future improvements. :) I ran the BWC-4 today and it was a blast. I had to cut out the water creature encounter becuase it was running over, but everyone seemed to really like it. The combat on the main deck slowed to a crawl the first round or two until some pirates and sailors from both sides were eliminated. I think all the other combats were fine. As far as the boxed text after BWC-3 and 4 the players expect it and don't mind it. I think they might be disappointed tomorrow with the box text in 5 :D
Timlagor 05-10-07, 11:38 PM	Ok I just played it online (lseelba's game). Large amounts of boxtext are definitely improved by being available in writing for later reference. Some LG modules do mass combat very well by having the PCs fight only a little of it... and some do the same thing very badly. I liked the tilting ship a lot. I really dislike combats that happen within sight and can't be affected and 10 minutes is an absurdly long time for the blockage. My warforged was very confused by the constant requests to sit in the cabin and then come out on deck and then go back to the cabin and all the meals that he clearly wasn't going to eat.