Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Southernskies 07-07-07, 09:02 AM	CSH051EX2 - CSH-5 Night of Shadows (https://events.wizards.com/RPGAWeb/external/econplay.asp?ScenarioCd=CSH051EX2) A warning to everyone that this adventure far exceeds RPGA content guidelines (even for an "evil" adventure). We have just pulled it from a convention after cancelling the slot0 halfway through as the block text started devolving. When it started delving into murdering children and pregnant women, it went too far.
Marcus Majarra 07-07-07, 11:47 AM	Maybe the Cabal should be rated R?
GaloisTheOmnipotent 07-07-07, 01:16 PM	Maybe the Cabal should be rated R? I think it should. I DM CoS since the beginning, bringing my kid to the table. But when I read mods 4 and 6, I understood that it was a bit too much for my son... BUT! Night of Shadows was soooo great! Head-chopping was fun.
Madfox11 07-09-07, 11:18 AM	What did you expect from a group that allows evil PCs? Even than though a DM can have a big influence on how he brings the R-rated stuff. If you really think that killing pregnant woman or family is worse than killing honest guards, talkative maids, smugglers, greedy nobles, and fishy fences than just remove those parts. It is not as if they change the adventure in a significant way. When I played it, my character demanded a certain profesionalism from the PCs so nobody got to murder that family, and I have to compliment the player who was asked to do so on his sticking to the intrigue part of the Cabal instead of simply ignoring my character and doing so (and in doing so going against the overall goals of the Cabal). We never learned the woman was pregnant. If there was one thing I did not like about the otherwise very fun adventure it was the fact that preperation did not add any benefit at all. We immediately came up with plans on how to kill each of the NPCs, and after spending all the time and resources on learning more, realized we would have succeeded without a hitch without ever doing so. It is a minor complaint though... and mainly a complaint because my changeling rogue is specialized in that kind of stuff.
Skerrit 07-09-07, 12:54 PM	You should always adjust to the sensibilities of your players. If someone isn't having fun, you're not doing something right. As a DM, you should never make a player uncomfortable. Some folks handle scenes of gore, violence, or questionable morality much better than others and it is necessary as a Cabal judge to account for this as you run any adventure. I have occassionally inlcuded such comments in adventures, but I think Marcus has a good point. I will consider adding a Warning/Guidance at the beginning of each adventure. As a side note, rather than pulling any adventure so no players are ever exposed to it, I would encourage you to rather suggest restraint to your judges so as not to offend those players who are sensitive to such things.
Diablo05 07-09-07, 10:33 PM	**Spoilers Below** This is exactly why evil is banned in most living games. But, mods like that are exactly what one should expect from a predominately evil campaign. Yes, perhaps a disclaimer would be good for people who don't understand that. But, I'd hate to see the CoS mods watered down because a few people couldn't handle it. If thats not your thing, then dont play that faction. Personally, CoS 5 was my favorite mod thus far! Not only did I kill the pregnant woman, but I carved a smiley face onto her body, then morphed into her (Changeling) and slept with her husband before knifing him in his sleep. But ya know, these things happen when you worship The Mockery. On the side tangent: I think planning could play a big part in it, depending how you go about it. My group planned everything out in great detail, only to get our butts handed to us in a few encounters because one annoying player decided to intentionally ruin the plan. We lost two characters because of that (sadly, the person responsible was not one of them). A great way to increase the difficulty and force planning is to exaggerate the time limit. The mod doesn't say how far apart these locations are. Stormreach is a big place... if you force players to split up in order to accomplish the mission in time (as my group did), planning becomes far more essential.
Marcus Majarra 07-09-07, 10:54 PM	Personally, CoS 5 was my favorite mod thus far! Not only did I kill the pregnant woman, but I carved a smiley face onto her body, then morphed into her (Changeling) and slept with her husband before knifing him in his sleep. But ya know, these things happen when you worship The Mockery. That's not just evil. That's VILE. Still, I'm with the groups that enjoys seeing an evil campaign. It should not seem as a surprise to anyone that the campaign will be shocking, as characters are entitled to be actively immoral. This said, I think the Cabal should be restricted to adults, as playing immoral characters requires a great deal of maturity.
Madfox11 07-10-07, 04:59 AM	**Spoilers Below** This is exactly why evil is banned in most living games. But, mods like that are exactly what one should expect from a predominately evil campaign. Yes, perhaps a disclaimer would be good for people who don't understand that. But, I'd hate to see the CoS mods watered down because a few people couldn't handle it. If thats not your thing, then dont play that faction. Sometimes I think the disclaimers all too common in the world are taking away the individual responsibility to think for them selves. Personally, CoS 5 was my favorite mod thus far! Not only did I kill the pregnant woman, but I carved a smiley face onto her body, then morphed into her (Changeling) and slept with her husband before knifing him in his sleep. But ya know, these things happen when you worship The Mockery. I sure hope you took your fellow players and DMs sensitivities into mind. The DM is not the only one who has to moderate himself and the adventure, the players have this responsibility as well. Had my PC learned off this behaviour he certainly would never join adventures with that character again, because he would consider the man an insane psychopath, and a danger to the organization. He might even alert the authorities. Than again, he is a cold calculating professional who does what needs to be done and who does not tolerate behaviour that poses a risk to that goal. On the side tangent: I think planning could play a big part in it, depending how you go about it. My group planned everything out in great detail, only to get our butts handed to us in a few encounters because one annoying player decided to intentionally ruin the plan. We lost two characters because of that (sadly, the person responsible was not one of them). A great way to increase the difficulty and force planning is to exaggerate the time limit. The mod doesn't say how far apart these locations are. Stormreach is a big place... if you force players to split up in order to accomplish the mission in time (as my group did), planning becomes far more essential. No, I think somesecret info to exploit would have been better.
Diablo05 07-10-07, 08:53 PM	Sometimes I think the disclaimers all too common in the world are taking away the individual responsibility to think for them selves. So very true. Good point. I sure hope you took your fellow players and DMs sensitivities into mind. The DM is not the only one who has to moderate himself and the adventure, the players have this responsibility as well. It really wasnt an issue... I was tame next to some of them. Maturity is a big issue in an evil campaign, because some people just dont get it. Two of the players at our table just went around butchering people for little or no reason, simply because they think that is what it means to be evil. No... that's what it means to be stupid. The actions of my character have purpose and motivation and premeditation, they are by no means random acts. Having a degree in Criminal Psychology, Im fairly good at getting into the minds of twisted characters, and am quite grateful to Greg for providing the opportunity. Had my PC learned off this behaviour he certainly would never join adventures with that character again, because he would consider the man an insane psychopath, and a danger to the organization. He might even alert the authorities. Than again, he is a cold calculating professional who does what needs to be done and who does not tolerate behaviour that poses a risk to that goal. That is understandable. And as it is a very good in character reason to hate my char, I would have no problem with that. However, I think our characters would get along just fine. I am also a cold calculating assassain type, I just like to take it a step further and humiliate/dishonor my victims first (my way of paying homage to The Mockery). Consider it a calling card. Besides that, no, the other characters were not fully aware of what happened. All they knew was that I carried out my two assassinations all by myself, and did it with far more effeciency than the rest of them did. They knew I killed the family, but that was necessary for my obscura, and after some convincing, they were on board with that. Also, if your character had expressed his concerns to her, she may have been convinced to tone it down; we are all on the same team after all (more or less). No, I think somesecret info to exploit would have been better. No argument there, just offering another suggestion.
Diablo05 07-10-07, 09:47 PM	*Please excuse the double post. I feel the need for a side rant. This rant is not related specifically to my CoS char, I realize she is a little extreme* While I am not completely beyond toning down my role play for the sake of others sensitivities, the fact that I have to really rubs me the wrong way. This is a role playing game. Once the game has begun, we should all be playing our role. Nothing I say or do in character should offend anyone, unless it would also offend his or her character. They shouldn’t even contemplate whether the act was offensive to them or not, they should contemplate if it was offensive to their characters. And if it is, so be it, bring it up IN CHARACTER. In fact, I greatly encourage such personality conflicts, it makes for great role play. My CoL character takes a somewhat unique perspective of his mission, and his ideals often clash with those of his teammates, and vice-versa. These offenses have always been in character; out of character none of us really cared all that much. But consequently, every CoL mod I have played has involved some sort of philosophical debate, and personally, I think that is just great! Such great role play, and so much fun! Where do we draw the line? If one of my female characters sleeps with an NPC for the sake of the mission, or simply wears a low cut top, should I be concerned that this might be perceived as an implication that all females are sluts? If I speak with a Russian accent and don’t pull it off so well, might a Russian think I am making fun of him? If I crack a halfling joke (in character), should I be concerned that it offends the short guy at the table? In the situation described in this thread, it is very possible that bending in order to oblige peoples over exaggerated sensibilities could force the party to use alternative and less effective tactics, perhaps even getting a player killed because of it. Even more likely is the very real chance that such limitations would make certain obscura missions completely impossible to accomplish. I am sorry, but I think it is wrong for the sensitivities of one player to ruin the gaming experience for everyone else. Never the less… I continue to tone down certain things when necessary, despite my belief that it is their sensitivities, not my role play, that should be toned down.
Soltares 07-11-07, 12:22 AM	Never the less… I continue to tone down certain things when necessary, despite my belief that it is their sensitivities, not my role play, that should be toned down. My own personal guideline; I'll never be able to control what other people think or feel or do (and if I ever can, I promise to be a benevolent dictator...). The only things I can control in this world, the only things I'm responsible for, is what *I* say and do. Since role-playing games are a team activity, I try (but don't always succeed) to restrict my activities to those that contribute to the entire group having fun (including me, I'm no martyr and will walk away from a game where *I* am not having fun). There are plenty of other things I can do by myself (such as computer games), where I wouldn't have to 'hold back,' and could act as maladjusted as I wish. Plus there's the creative outlet of fanfic. But we don't talk about fanfic, because who would admit to writing that? :)
Sieylianna 07-11-07, 06:08 PM	Never the less… I continue to tone down certain things when necessary, despite my belief that it is their sensitivities, not my role play, that should be toned down. I disagree. I'm rather creative, having written my share of modules over the years, and there are some people that I can make physically ill with my descriptions. There really isn't anything they can do about that. Likewise, conversations on child abuse, drug abuse, mental illness and sexual assault can be traumatic to people who either suffered from it or know people who did. It's like everything else, the game needs to be fun for six players and the DM. If your role-play is sapping the fun out of the game for the other participants, it's your problem, not theirs. Ed
Marcia_S 07-11-07, 11:24 PM	I've played the mod and read it and didn't find the character particularly offensive. The text in the mod barely more than hints at his orientation and has no actions described that could be offensive. He was likable and wanted to be liked and was supposed to be played as such. At worst he would be a RuPaul type character. I can see where a GM might go overboard with the RP, but that's not necessarily called for in the mod. When I played it, besides a male halfling (gnome?), we had all female characters, so it sort of fell flat. I saw it as an attempt at a bit of levity in an otherwise dark scenario. I was actually more concerned about the obscura objectives and the one that would have REALLY upset some of the players. Marcia
JJeff 07-12-07, 01:43 AM	I've played the mod and read it and didn't find the character particularly offensive. The text in the mod barely more than hints at his orientation and has no actions described that could be offensive. He was likable and wanted to be liked and was supposed to be played as such. At worst he would be a RuPaul type character. I can see where a GM might go overboard with the RP, but that's not necessarily called for in the mod. When I played it, besides a male halfling (gnome?), we had all female characters, so it sort of fell flat. I saw it as an attempt at a bit of levity in an otherwise dark scenario. I was actually more concerned about the obscura objectives and the one that would have REALLY upset some of the players. Marcia Shouldn't this be over at the COS 6 thread and not the COS 5 thread? And I thought the discussion on this was on slicing and dicing preggy ladies and sensitivities about that
Marcia_S 07-12-07, 09:58 AM	Oops, sorry. Forgot where I was when I posted. I had intended this for the board on CSH 6. As for CSH 5, I play a really evil drow cleric who had no problem offing the entire family. The party had decided to leave them unconscious and tied up, but my character snuck away later to finish them off (including removing their heads) so as to not leave any witnesses. All in all, these games aren't as objectionable as many TV shows and made for TV movies. Marcia
Diablo05 07-12-07, 10:17 AM	I disagree. I'm rather creative, having written my share of modules over the years, and there are some people that I can make physically ill with my descriptions. There really isn't anything they can do about that. That sounds pretty awesome. If you can bring out emotion like that in a game, I would love to play with you. Likewise, conversations on child abuse, drug abuse, mental illness and sexual assault can be traumatic to people who either suffered from it or know people who did. It's like everything else, the game needs to be fun for six players and the DM. If your role-play is sapping the fun out of the game for the other participants, it's your problem, not theirs. I think that is getting into the old debate of who's enjoyment takes priority. If the content is actually going to cause certain players to suffer mental breaks due to prior mental defect/trauma/nerosis, then I'd say they definately get priority. Despite the catchy phrase, words can NOT be traumatic (with the sole exception of "The Knights Who Say "Ni!""). Yes, if there is prior trauma, they can aggravate the damage. Baring that, words can only cause lasting damage after repeated long term exposure, not 4 hour games. The process is really more conditioning than trauma. As far as highly descriptive scenes go, these also can not cause trauma (but again, can aggravate prior damage) because no matter how descriptive you are, it is still up to the players own knowledge/experience to conjure the scene in his/her imagination. Description only facilitates the process. But, I think this thread originated from people finding the content 'distasteful'. It is the difference between somebody not liking a particular food, and somebody who will have a fatal allergic reaction to it. In this case, who's enjoyment takes priority? *shrug* I don't know, majority rules?
Timlagor 07-12-07, 08:37 PM	I would not expect to tone down my character's behavious in a CoS module but would do so if asked. I would no offer to do so (unless there were children present ...but for them I'd probably only cut down on the sexual content and level of detail -adults are likely much harder to please). People really shouldn't be playing these if they can't cope with a bit of wanton brutality though -reading of the Obscura there isn't much room for the 'more civilised' sort of Evil in their descriptions (not that you have to be in an Obscura). Stick a warning in the ECS and have done with it... i'd be interested to know if the people who had problems with this were the same as the ones who had trouble when PvP was allowed.