Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xandore 12-31-06, 01:10 AM	Exactly what is or is not permitted with reguard to PvP? Is grappling permitted? Is subduel damage permitted? If we can't intentionally make a lethal attack on a party member, then does that including intentionally hurting ourselves? I ask the last because if you have a damage shield on which does damage to someone that attacks you would this prevent a party member from attacking you as it would cause them damage? If PvP in a non-lethal way is permitted then how about all lethal damage in a PvP situation would simply cause non-lethal damage.
Skerrit 01-01-07, 01:42 PM	Is grappling permitted? Yes, likely. Is subduel damage permitted? This is a grey area. I lean towards no, but it needs further exploarion. There will be a web article dealing with this subject. If we can't intentionally make a lethal attack on a party member, then does that including intentionally hurting ourselves? No I ask the last because if you have a damage shield on which does damage to someone that attacks you would this prevent a party member from attacking you as it would cause them damage? No If PvP in a non-lethal way is permitted then how about all lethal damage in a PvP situation would simply cause non-lethal damage. I don't think I understand you. Do you mean that PCs damage should magically be transmuted to non-lethal if it hits another PC?
Xandore 01-01-07, 02:57 PM	If we can't intentionally make a lethal attack on a party member, then does that including intentionally hurting ourselves? No NO? No, we can't hurt ourselves? I ask the last because if you have a damage shield on which does damage to someone that attacks you would this prevent a party member from attacking you as it would cause them damage? No NO?, This won't stop them from attacking and will cause them damage? If PvP in a non-lethal way is permitted then how about all lethal damage in a PvP situation would simply cause non-lethal damage. I don't think I understand you. Do you mean that PCs damage should magically be transmuted to non-lethal if it hits another PC? Yes, exactly any lethal damage would just be converted to non-lethal damage.
AbyssKnight 01-01-07, 06:35 PM	I think you misunderstood Skerrit's answers. You asked if being unable to attack party members would include attacking yourself. Skerrit's answer was No. So he is saying you can attack yourself, just not other PCs. I don't really understand you second question. PC's can't attack each other, so if you had a "damage shield" or not is irrelevant. It won't stop them from attacking you since they can't attack you even without it. The idea that damage magically becomes non-lethal for no reason doesn't make much sense. Skerrit sides toward not allowing even non-lethal PVP, and even if it were allowed there are already rules for striking for non-lethal damage.
Xandore 01-01-07, 11:19 PM	Exactly what is or is not permitted with reguard to PvP? Is grappling permitted? Yes, likely. Is subduel damage permitted? This is a grey area. I lean towards no, but it needs further exploarion. There will be a web article dealing with this subject. I think you misunderstood Skerrit's answers. You asked if being unable to attack party members would include attacking yourself. Skerrit's answer was No. So he is saying you can attack yourself, just not other PCs. I don't really understand you second question. PC's can't attack each other, so if you had a "damage shield" or not is irrelevant. It won't stop them from attacking you since they can't attack you even without it. The idea that damage magically becomes non-lethal for no reason doesn't make much sense. Skerrit sides toward not allowing even non-lethal PVP, and even if it were allowed there are already rules for striking for non-lethal damage. I think you are misunderstanding. Grappling is attack and his a response was, "Yes, likely". Subduel damage is still from an attack and his response was, "This is a grey area". He didn't say there can be no PvP. If a player has a damage shield on and is attacked, then the attacker takes damage. The reason I asked about intentionally hurting yourself, was if you grappled (attacked) another player with a damage shield on you would take damage from that damage shield. If that damage is lethal damage you would effectively be hurting yourself. So my understanding from his response is Player A can grapple Player B and take damage from the damage shield on Player B.
thearcept 01-02-07, 02:54 AM	In the front of the faction adventures and i beleive in the main campaign standards it states that you "cannot attack a fellow PC" any action that is considered an attack action is listed in the players handbook under COMBAT RULES and does include grappeling, as well as activating items. i had to look all this up during well of woe when a single Cabal of shadows member was infused into the group of 5 other players. He was trying to kill every living creature that the group came across and the rule "no attacking PC's" left the good guys quite on the wrong end of the deal as they couldnt stop him. That is until they realized that they could give the npc's cover using their own bodies. The strangest part is i had the exact same group for well of woe round 2 and they just let the evil guy hack apart everyone they encounted (he did lag behind so he didnt do it in their faces though)... I guess they thought the best way to get him to stop was let him run across someone he couldnt handle on his own.. lol.
Xandore 01-02-07, 10:57 AM	In the front of the faction adventures and i beleive in the main campaign standards it states that you "cannot attack a fellow PC" any action that is considered an attack action is listed in the players handbook under COMBAT RULES and does include grappeling, as well as activating items. i had to look all this up during well of woe when a single Cabal of shadows member was infused into the group of 5 other players. He was trying to kill every living creature that the group came across and the rule "no attacking PC's" left the good guys quite on the wrong end of the deal as they couldnt stop him. That is until they realized that they could give the npc's cover using their own bodies. The strangest part is i had the exact same group for well of woe round 2 and they just let the evil guy hack apart everyone they encounted (he did lag behind so he didnt do it in their faces though)... I guess they thought the best way to get him to stop was let him run across someone he couldnt handle on his own.. lol. Ok, I found the PvP rules for Xen'drik Campaign Standards v1-1 on page 14. I'm afraid when I reached Online Play just above it I had stopped reading. That's good because I really hate PvP. So according to the rules the other player was not permitted to attempt to grapple me. He could however block my attempts at killing the NPC which he did when he failed to win the strength check against me.
Marcia_S 01-15-07, 02:30 PM	The problem we had in one mod was that one of our party members attacked and killed an NPC that the rest of us had orders to save. The other 5 of us could do NOTHING to stop him due to the PvP rules. There has to be SOME way to prevent one player from ruining the mission for everyone else. Until there is, mods should NOT be written with such conflicting goals as this. Perhaps include in the goals that you should "take whatever measures are necessary" to accomplish this, including attacking someone in your own party if they try to stop you. The mod set up the scenario that required PvP to resolve, but the rules prohibit PvP. If you set up a PvP situation, then tell us that we cannot take any action, you've got a frustrating conflict between instructions and rules that's going to have the troops revolting. Marcia
Harliquinn 01-15-07, 04:16 PM	The conflicting module goals and lack of PvP have become a problem for us in several adventures. I'm holding out hope that these will be changing with the upcoming modules. If there is to be conflicting goals I would highly recommend whoever is writing the module to list for the DM (at least) ways in which they see a character being able to meet their goals at the expense of the other party members without resorting to PvP. Not only would this show that the module writer has put some great thought into the reason for the conflict but also its possible resolution. THis would also give the DM parameters by which to judge what is an acceptable method and what is not. While it hasn't caused any game troubles (fights breaking out between players, etc.), it has left some players leaving the adventure with a sense of "Why bother if I can't succeed?" Since social checks (diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, etc.) don't really work on PC's, the only way to resolve some conflicts is confrontation. One contrived example is this: PC A is required to bring back an item (we'll say it isn't easily destroyed) from a cache of items. PC B is required to prevent PC A from bringing back this item. Once the item is found in the adventure, what ways does PC A have of preventing PC B from taking and turning in the item? This needs to be answered in such a way that no specific class, race, or other narrowly defined character trait is required. Harliquinn
Istaran 01-15-07, 09:48 PM	A character with good slieght of hand could make the item "disappear". A character with arcane spells could make the item disappear. Another character might just need to get there first and not-so-subtly pocket it. Maybe drop it over a cliff later. If you have to ensure that the item stays where it was, you might be just plain out of luck. You can try talking PC to PC, but that's always problematic when they are on a Mission, and there really isn't anything you can offer them, especially from a metagaming point of view. They know you will work to keep them alive and in top form because you are mutually dependant for combat, etc. They know any bribes you might offer will revert to your EV at end of session. However, if they are a good roleplayer there should be certain things that will tempt their character, and they should give you the plausibility of talking them out of their missions if you take the right approach for their character. It might be well nigh impossible with a particularly duty-bound type, but most characters should have something that could persuade them out of a side-quest. Figuring out what that might be could be beyond your abilities though.