Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fleetfang 07-18-06, 03:53 PM	Greg, Players in the Cabal of Shadows are in a very unique position in the RPGA. Each of us is potentially in control of an evil PC. So that raises a very important question: What is allowed in the way of evil acts? Do the old standards from Living Greyhawk apply? Or are we free to attack other PCs for fun and profit... and lethal damage? What about non-damaging spells, especially mind-affecting enchantments like Charm Person and Dominate Person? I'm certain that Cabal members will never be trusted at a table, and I'm sure that no shortage of evil PCs will be looking to screw over the other factions' members... But how far are we allowed to go in persuing our own goals? And furthermore, What are the consequences if we do cross the line? I'm eager to play my evil PC to the hilt, but I want to make sure that I'm not breaking any rules when I do. Thanks in advance for the clarifications! :devil:
Skerrit 07-18-06, 04:09 PM	So that raises a very important question: What is allowed in the way of evil acts? Do the old standards from Living Greyhawk apply? Or are we free to attack other PCs for fun and profit... and lethal damage? What about non-damaging spells, especially mind-affecting enchantments like Charm Person and Dominate Person? I'm certain that Cabal members will never be trusted at a table, and I'm sure that no shortage of evil PCs will be looking to screw over the other factions' members... But how far are we allowed to go in persuing our own goals? And furthermore, What are the consequences if we do cross the line? Well, first off, go read my post "PvP" on the thread "First Post." That describes how combat between PCs works. Basically, you can't kill eachother as (at least in the Cabal) you are all made men, but screwing each other is fine within the bounds of having fun. We do NOT use the same standards as LG does. Beyond that, there are no rules as to what's too evil. You are evil after all. Now of course, somethings go beyond good taste and your DM is fully within his right to just say "that happens offscreen, lets move on with the game." Be mindful of who's at the table with you. If you are playing at a table with children, you need to PG your actions a bit; possibly passing notes to the DM if you need to do something particularly evil and you think it might disturb the young player. If you are playing with all your buddies from work in the privacy of your own rec room, you can behave as you like. You wanna leave an ally to bleed out cause he coughed on your breakfest, be my guest. As a common sense example, your PCs run across a small girl. Your PC decides she's a witness and a libability so you draw your sword and cut her down. Fair enough. But if you draw your sword and get into some graphic discription of what physical your evil PC wants to do to child corpse, not good. Not only will ruin the RP experience for others at your table, we will look at you funny and consider calling the police cause you might just be a dangerous lunitic. Effectively the answer is always the same. It's a game. Have fun. Don't have fun in such a way that the rest of your table IS NOT having fun. Much of the problems are avoided by the fact that Faction mods can only be played by members of the same faction, so it's only expedition mods you need to worry about, and even then, you usually play those with all members of the same faction. If you don't, you should realize that someone isn't going to "win." You need to make sure everyone at the table is okay with that before you sit down. We need to be responsible here. The RPGA is going out on a real limb by letting us do this "evil" experiment and if people do not behave responsibily, it will be over and will never happen again. If people have fun with it, but don't take it to extremes, it should be great! I hope to explore this topic in much greater detail in future web articles. Meetings are going right as we speak (today even) about getting the website moving forward, so I have high hopes you see some web articles from us in the near future.
Fleetfang 07-18-06, 05:15 PM	Thanks for the clarification Greg, and for the direction over to your original addressing of this potential problem. I think everyone here can agree that none of us wants to screw this up for future generations of would-be assassins. I trust that I won't be drawn and quartered by the Cabal for not spotting it in what looked to be an innocuous "FIRST!" thread. I'll cross post your original comments on PvP below, so that they'll be easier to find as the group grows. Player vs. Player conflict is one of the biggest issues that I get asked about. There are several things to consider on this topic, as PvP means different things in a faction mod vs an expedition mod. 1) PvP in Faction Mods: PvP situtions seemly likely when everyone at the table might be evil, so how is this handled, especially when everyone might be from competing Obscura? Well, first off, you can't kill each other. When you become a full member of the Cabal (which all PCs do as of the beginning of the first faction mod) you are awarded some level of protection. Effectively all PCs are "Made Men" and can't be touched. Now this doesn't mean you have to save PCs who are bleeding out, or that you can arrange for someone else to be set up to take the fall for a crime. You just can't murder each other. If you do, they higher ups will find out about it and your PC is forfiet. You are execute painfully as an example to others. Now if you arrange a situation such that another PC is killed by an NPC, well that's just plain bad luck on that person's part. When you sit at a table, try to figure out who might also be in your Obscura (if any) so you know who might be your allies if it comes down to it. There will be more on recognizing fellow Obscura members without giving away your secret in the days to come. 2) PvP in Expedition and Delve Mods: First off, it's not a good idea for our PCs to mix with the others. They will want to kill us. That said, and given that this campaign actually has critical events that matter, many will want to mix it up in order to prevent another faction from succeeding. You can do that without killing each other. In fact, the Cabal would rather the PCs avoid exposing the Cabal's existance as much as possible. So if you pose as a member of another faction, you might prevent success (their success, not yours) by dragging your feet a bit, or being a bit bumbling, but DO NOT expose yourself or the Cabal. Now saying that, it is only polite that you admit your true faction to the players at your table as they muster. Avoiding springing it on them in the middle of play. Everyone likes different styles of play and some will enjoy putting their wits against yours in order to see how the critical events turn out for your table. However, other players hate conflict and you will ruin their time by having your fun. We all paid money to go to a big con and it takes a real donkey to screw five people out of four hows just so they can get some laughs. Be upfront and find the people who while want to play with you. We, as players of the Cabal of Shadows, have a huge responsibility. If this experiement in playing dark PCs goes astray and there are more complaints than positive comments we will never be allowed to do it again. Lets all be grown-ups and be respectful of others. Greg Marks Cabal of Shadows Factionmaster Word.
Blaznak 07-18-06, 10:39 PM	Just a thought based on my 29 years of playing D&D, including having evil players at a table: This is an easy area to lose friends and really tick the heck out of people. I think this needs to be avoided as a goal. How do you do this, however? One - It seems to me the party is, more or less, under the control of more powerful masters. They may need party members to survive and will not be looking favorably at leaving 1) fallen comrades as witnesses 2) Fallen comrades to die as they can be more cheaply healed and used again and again. Two - There probably needs to be a "Party Agreement" before playing each game = OUTSIDE OF ROLEPLAYING of what the party will/will not accept at the table. Evil towards others? Evil towards each other? Evil towards the module? Graphic Evil v. Cartoon Evil? Heck, I got me a nine-year old who is TOTALLY pumped about playing a Drow. I guarantee you HER idea of evil is probably a bit different than what OTHER, older people might view as evil. Three - There probably needs to be "Module Agreement" before playing each game = OUTSIDE OF ROLEPLAYING of what the party hopes to accomplish in the 4 hour convention game slot: Focus on achieving all goals? Focus on role-playing to the detriment of goals? Etc. These agreements outside of roleplaying should NOT be broken in game. Just my thoughts... Jeffery A.
Munchausen 07-18-06, 11:34 PM	The one that percives it. I am a very experienced Player and DM. I have ran games and been in games when I have seen people play 'Stupid' Evil (and Stupid rogues too). When I play Evil.. i think that I am not the one who is evil.. it is the rest of the world that is. I dont go around and do the 'diabolical' acts and yell and scream 'I am Evil' type of a person. I dont steal from player characters. I just dont.. Yes I am evil.. but in a group.. I realy on them to keep me alive so that I can get what I want done.. so I dont make enemies.. and I dont make friends. I make ALOT of aquaintances in character. So Alot of people have never tried to roleplay Evil and get it stuck in their mind the 'standard' evil trait. The last campaign I was in the gm allowed me to be an assasin. I worked hard for it. didnt let the players know about. Never did anything to hurt or hinder the group.. Then someone joined as a Paly and well.. POOF he did his detect evil and was wanting to kill me (he was playing a standard Paly).. but the group didnt care if I had a 'Evil' aura, for I was a member of the party and always came thru for them so they stuck up for me.. all in character. So Evil is what how we look at it thru our own eyes.
Fleetfang 07-19-06, 10:59 AM	Well, one can say that Munchausen... but if your evil PC never did anything evil and always stuck up for his friends and helped them all the time, what really made him "evil?" the fact that he was an assassin? That seems like circular reasoning to me. Certainly an evil PC has to do evil acts, or else he becomes neutral or maybe even good. Having said that, I whole-heartedly agree with you in that evil characters don't need to be stupid. In fact, evil people still have friendships that they value. Even professional relationships can foster a kind of mutual respect, familiarity, or even love that all real people need to have in their lives. Hell, even Hitler had Eva Braun. I'm reminded of a point in one of the Avatar Trilogy books where Bane tells his cohort to cast some spell, and it just utterly consumes the guy. It was a risk Bane knew was there, but he offhandedly gave the order. Of course, he didn't realize how important that friend and confidant was to him until he had lost him. It was a well-played moment. I'm certainly not going to suggest that evil PCs need to be all buddy-buddy with each other, but if somebody goes around screwing over everyone that they ever worked with, then they aren't gonna get very far. It's just not in one's own self-interest. Which is really what being evil is all about. heh heh heh
Skerrit 07-19-06, 12:38 PM	I'm certainly not going to suggest that evil PCs need to be all buddy-buddy with each other, but if somebody goes around screwing over everyone that they ever worked with, then they aren't gonna get very far. It's just not in one's own self-interest. I think we need to also remember that we are all in the same group with the same goals. We need each other to accomplish them, so Cabal PCs should feel some minor loyalty to other Cabal PCs (at least vs. other faction PCs), and probably moderate loyalty to other members of your Obscura (if any) as they not only share your goals but believe in a similar method for bringing it about. I don't think you have to be best friends with all other Cabal PCs, but you at least have a reason to work together that is self serving if nothing else. The other PCs keep you alive and help you reach your goals. Sure sometimes there will be a time when Obscura conflict and it might be easy to let an "ally" bleed out, but remember, it will have consequences later in the next encounter when there is one less PC to draw enemy attacks and you might just get the extra critting falchion. ;)
heirodule 07-21-06, 09:56 AM	I suggest looking to the character of Jayne from Firefly for how to roleplay an Evil PC without wreaking havoc. Best example of how an Evil PC fits with a non-evil (?) party I've ever seen.
Fleetfang 07-21-06, 10:25 AM	Come on! Jayne's not Evil! He's just ... opportunistic! ;) BWAH!
wiccadshadow 07-21-06, 05:13 PM	I, for one, don't plan on playing an evil character. I was leaning towards neutral. I think the evil aspect of the cabal is, possibly, going to be over-used. =) (it is the first time it's been allowed in the rpga) I'd imagine that their are a good enough number of non-evil cabal members, but i could be wrong.
delroland 07-27-06, 06:07 PM	I suggest the Cabal of Shadows institutes a code, similar to the pirate code. Here is one version out of an old RP book of mine: "An Expedition of the Cabal travels under its Articles. The Articles will specify division of loot, leadership, discipline, and such bonuses for combat injuries as may be rewarded. "The Leadership of an expedition of the Cabal shall at all times be subject to revision by a Vote of the party as called and adjuticated by procedures set forth in the Articles. "The Leader shall at all times maintain a dagger available for any who wish to Challenge for Leadership. "The safety of the expedition comes before that of any member of the party. Any man who falls behind shall be left behind. "Any member of the Cabal may invoke the right of Parley with a hostile party of the Cabal. The one who invokes the right of Parley shall be taken to the Leader for the Parley. "Bloodshed brings royal and house vengeance against the entire Cabal, and a dead man cannot be robbed again. Therefore, upon surrender, a prize and its party may be sold or enjoyed but shall not be harmed. "No member of the Cabal shall be denied his fair share of the loot. "No member of the Cabal shall fail to share the loot he has captured with his brethren. "The Leader shall be resposible for ensuring proper food, liquor, and medicine within his Expedition. "No member of the Cabal shall acknowledge any king, emperor, or house, or any higher authority than the Leader (except the gods). "No man may be denied a place in the Cabal due to his following any particular god. "The Leader commands the Expedition and the members of the Cabal who travel under his Banner until his authority is revoked as per the Articles under which the expedition travels. "Any member of the Cabal who violates the Code shall be abandoned to the wilds with one bottle of water, one loaf of bread, and one knife."
Reska 07-27-06, 06:10 PM	I suggest the Cabal of Shadows institutes a code, similar to the pirate code. Here is one version out of an old RP book of mine: "An Expedition of the Cabal travels under its Articles. The Articles will specify division of loot, leadership, discipline, and such bonuses for combat injuries as may be rewarded. "The Leadership of an expedition of the Cabal shall at all times be subject to revision by a Vote of the party as called and adjuticated by procedures set forth in the Articles. "The Leader shall at all times maintain a dagger available for any who wish to Challenge for Leadership. "The safety of the expedition comes before that of any member of the party. Any man who falls behind shall be left behind. "Any member of the Cabal may invoke the right of Parley with a hostile party of the Cabal. The one who invokes the right of Parley shall be taken to the Leader for the Parley. "Bloodshed brings royal and house vengeance against the entire Cabal, and a dead man cannot be robbed again. Therefore, upon surrender, a prize and its party may be sold or enjoyed but shall not be harmed. "No member of the Cabal shall be denied his fair share of the loot. "No member of the Cabal shall fail to share the loot he has captured with his brethren. "The Leader shall be resposible for ensuring proper food, liquor, and medicine within his Expedition. "No member of the Cabal shall acknowledge any king, emperor, or house, or any higher authority than the Leader (except the gods). "No man may be denied a place in the Cabal due to his following any particular god. "The Leader commands the Expedition and the members of the Cabal who travel under his Banner until his authority is revoked as per the Articles under which the ship sails. "Any member of the Cabal who violates the Code shall be abandoned to the wilds with one bottle of water, one loaf of bread, and one knife." But remember, you have to be a Cabalist to be afforded the code....and besides, they're more like guidelines anyway.... --Au'kkin, Drow Warlock
delroland 07-27-06, 06:31 PM	(it is the first time it's been allowed in the rpga) The second, actually. In the Living City campaign, when AD&D 1st Ed was the current ruleset, evil characters were allowed. This lead to some PvP incidents, with the victor looting the loser's dead corpse and taking measures to prevent them from being raised from the dead. This was deemed detrimental to campaign play, and evil characters were subsequently disallowed.
Starfox_SFX 07-27-06, 08:01 PM	Just a thought based on my 29 years of playing D&D, including having evil players at a table: This is an easy area to lose friends and really tick the heck out of people. I think this needs to be avoided as a goal. ... I have also had the experience of PvP being the quickest way to end a campaign with hard feelings all around. The mere mention of PvP has made me go back to the group I intend to play with and make sure we are all on the same page because if we aren't, then I might have to rethink my involvement in the Cabal in particular and any table that has a Cabal member at it in general. The opportunity that I had originally seen with the inclusion of evil was a chance to not only play certain classes, but to be able to consider options for overcoming in game challenges that would not normally be open to players in other RPGA games. I never even considered the possibility that 'evil' might include PvP. :( Being nasty to NPC's is one thing, being nasty to another player is something completely different.
delroland 07-27-06, 08:11 PM	Most PvP involving evil characters in a mixed campaign is not started by the evil character, but by those offended by the evil character. (Unless the evil character is a sociopath, in which case the player is just a griefing doofus. I am not counting these morons in my above statement.) Of course, the evil character usually retaliates in a brutal and bloody manner, but if a player doesn't want to suffer the consequences for attacking another character wantonly, they shouldn't have thrown down the gauntlet in the first place. That's like crying when your paladin gets splattered in a Ravenloft campaign.
Starfox_SFX 07-27-06, 09:31 PM	Most PvP involving evil characters in a mixed campaign is not started by the evil character, but by those offended by the evil character. .... While our experiences will certainly have differed, I agree that it is the good character that often starts the physical part of the conflict, however in my experience this is invariably instigated by the evil character attempting to perform an evil action and not backing down leaving the good character in a position of either allowing the evil action to occur or attack the evil person in some manner, or the evil character gets caught having performed an evil act, again leaving the good character in the position of either taking him in / trying to punish him (which leads to conflict), or tacitly accepting the evil action. In essence, while the good character takes the first swing, the evil character leaves him little choice.
Japangirl 07-28-06, 01:57 AM	Except if you're an evil cleric, doing a good deed makes your deity mad at you and you lose your spells and need an atonement. An evil cleric stopping a good character from doing a good deed and a paladin stopping an evil character from doing an evil deed are the same thing. Sometimes, a good character leaves an evil character no choice but to interfere with good-aligned plans. A divine caster adventuring with someone of opposite alignment has to know that the two are often going to be in conflict. There are ways to work it out, but an evil character is generally selfish and not willing to give up evil ways to benefit the party unless they also personally benefit a lot.
jeffpicard 07-28-06, 02:12 AM	Except if you're an evil cleric, doing a good deed makes your deity mad at you and you lose your spells and need an atonement. An evil cleric stopping a good character from doing a good deed and a paladin stopping an evil character from doing an evil deed are the same thing. Sometimes, a good character leaves an evil character no choice but to interfere with good-aligned plans. A divine caster adventuring with someone of opposite alignment has to know that the two are often going to be in conflict. There are ways to work it out, but an evil character is generally selfish and not willing to give up evil ways to benefit the party unless they also personally benefit a lot. That said, this problem doesn't exist in Eberron, aside from paladins Evil clerics can commit good acts, good clerics can commit evil acts in fact both can prepare spells of the opposite alignments. The divine powers of Eberron are less picky about things like that for clerics Paladins though, don't get that option, LG or lose it buddy no questions
Japangirl 07-28-06, 02:13 AM	In that case, you knew playing a paladin could present . . . inconveniences. Deal with it.
jeffpicard 07-28-06, 02:19 AM	true, but then... How many are seriously planning on playing a paladin who Stays LG in this faction, and not one who ends up becoming a Blackguard and gets bonuses for the ex-paladin levels? I'd wager Very Few
Blaznak 07-28-06, 01:15 PM	true, but then... How many are seriously planning on playing a paladin who Stays LG in this faction, and not one who ends up becoming a Blackguard and gets bonuses for the ex-paladin levels? I'd wager Very Few And what IS Lawful Good in this campaign? Seriously? Say you are a paladin raised by the drow... You probably sense a strong duty to protect your village/people, and while offended at their more malicious ways, are probably more concious of the prejudice of non-drow towards them... I'm working on a paladin character and hope to make a serious run at it for a while. If it doesn't work, I have a fallback, but I'm looking at going as long as I can. I'm working on a short story I hope to post before GC on his motivations, etc. I think it can be interesting. The problem, I hope, will not be the other party members but the situations the character is thrust into. Dunno... We will see... What I'm REALLY worried about is not myself, but some of the younger kids who REALLY REALLY want to play a drow. The first PVP that goes off and some of these kids will lose their mind. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing how that campaign document is going to look... Good Gaming, Jeffery A.
HazardousIndex 07-28-06, 01:54 PM	I think maybe what we're missing here is a passage straight from the PHB: "Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types...so two lawful good characters can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent. A lawful good character may have a greedy streak that occasionally tempts him to take something or hoard something he has, even if that's not lawful or good behavior. People are also not consistent from day to day. A good character can lose his temper, a neutral character can be inspired to perform a good act, and so on." pg. 103 So, it's obvious that alignment itself is meant to be "more guidelines" as to how you intend to play your character. That doesn't mean that the instant your good cleric does something selfish, or the moment your evil one helps someone that they are immediately stripped of their powers. An evil character may do good things to gain someone's trust, then turn around and bring them to ruin. Is that PC "good aligned" for the duration of their charity? Absolutely not! In fact, some evil characters may treat certain friends or family members exceedingly well, only to go out into the world and wreak utter devastation. Their ends are ultimately selfish, since they are only treating that person well because they love them (maybe in a twisted way) or are attached to them, and so they are still evil. I know that alignment is not meant to be a moral conundrum in D&D, it is meant to be a static force that governs the world. But if we all played our alignments to a T at all times, we'd certainly end up with a lot of flat and boring D&D characters. That said, I think it's entirely possible for CoS characters to get along well with members of other factions. It's all a matter of letting up on the "evil" aspect just enough to have a fun game for everyone. Being evil is great, but it is NOT great enough to ruin a game over. And the same goes for all those good-aligned overzealous, beyond righteous PCs out there. They can tone it down just enough for us all to get through a session. There can still be some great moments where the forces of good and evil conflict, and some decisions have to be made, and maybe someone gets hurt. But what I would hate to see is every Paladin idiotically attacking every evil PC, and every evil PC swathed in a black aura cutting down innocents and allies alike.
Japangirl 07-28-06, 03:45 PM	It is fun when the alignment conflicts are reasonable though. My CN rogue was playing with a NG (and I mean angelic halo good) Rainbow Servant . . . we had a long long chat about comparative morality after I started to coup de' grace an attacker that we had subdued. It didn't interfere with the game, and the roleplaying was a lot of fun for both of us.
Fleetfang 07-28-06, 05:04 PM	I'd love to see a module whose BBEG is a Blackguard, who at lower APLs has lost his Blackguard abilities. Like the day before he had passed a fire and went in and saved a puppy or something. "Dang it all! What possessed me to do such a GOOD thing?!"
clem 07-28-06, 07:25 PM	I'd love to see a module whose BBEG is a Blackguard, who at lower APLs has lost his Blackguard abilities. Like the day before he had passed a fire and went in and saved a puppy or something. "Dang it all! What possessed me to do such a GOOD thing?!" And if such a Blackguard went on to become Lawful Good and take Paladin levels, would he gain extra class features for his redemption? That would seem fair (or, symmetrical, at least), but somehow I suspect that Evil has the better dental plan.
Fleetfang 07-30-06, 01:20 PM	...somehow I suspect that Evil has the better dental plan.Well, they sure can't have all of those werewolves and vampires being fitted for dentures!
ezreal2001 08-13-06, 09:01 PM	And if such a Blackguard went on to become Lawful Good and take Paladin levels, would he gain extra class features for his redemption? That would seem fair (or, symmetrical, at least), but somehow I suspect that Evil has the better dental plan. which would make him an NPC in the Perrenland LG Region...
Sect 08-14-06, 01:35 AM	true, but then... How many are seriously planning on playing a paladin who Stays LG in this faction, and not one who ends up becoming a Blackguard and gets bonuses for the ex-paladin levels? I'd wager Very Few ::the guy who's starting out as a LN EX-paladin raises his hand... kinda:: More like "first level paladin", then rest fighter.
JJeff 08-14-06, 09:54 PM	Qn: Since a cleric need not be the normal "one-step alignment" away from his or her deity in Eberron (ECS pg 34), does this hold in XE or do we have to stick to the "one-step". This may have been asked in MoH, but I don't think I was paying attention then. Was just thinking that a CE cleric of the silver flame would be a good cover for a CoS character since he can easily lie that he is good (except to a paladin or a high Sense Motive person)
Sianger 08-15-06, 01:19 AM	A follow-up to Jeff's question - say you're a CE Silver Flame cleric, can you cast spontaneous cure spells and otherwise channel positive energy (turn undead, etc.)? What about spells with alignment descriptors? And to those who don't remember that corrupt clerics are allowed in Eberron, the High Cardinal Krozen of the Church of the Silver Flame, detailed in Five Nations, is NE (or was it LE?), so...