Having fun? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Having fun? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mherduwynn
05-07-07, 02:51 AM As part of my Factionmaster responsibilities, I consider it important to make sure the Covenant is the kind of group you enjoy being a part of in game. As such, I'd really appreciate your opinions here if you've got a moment to share them.

Are you having fun on the CoL?

Is there anything you'd like to see changed or improved?

Have you noticed how ironically and sadly close our faction acronym is to SoL? :)

Take care,
-A
Marcus Majarra
05-07-07, 03:44 AM The storyline is good, so far. The only problems I see so far lie with continuity. In order for the storyline to remain coherent, adventures must be played in numeric order. Here's an example from the first arc of the Covenant:

1) In Divine Inspiration, the scions deal with Flame Father Garris. These dealings are important in that they foreshadow the events of Crisis of Faith and The Good Die Young.

2) Crisis of Faith and The Brave Die Young lead off the disappearance and death of Flame Father Garris.

3) It was technically possible to play Crisis of Faith and The Brave Die Young before Divine Inspiration.

In a way, the first arc was railroading the story in a significant way. The second arc does this to a far lesser extent, and I'm glad for this. From what I've seen, only one NPC present in the fourth module can become unavailable through the course of the fifth one. His/her role is very secondary.

My suggestion for future modules would be to make it so that the adventures of any given arc be playable in any order at no loss of storyline elements.
Peter_Seckler
05-07-07, 04:29 PM I don't want to give out any spoilers so I'll send it in PM!

In general, I have positive Luv.

In fact they should call it the Lovenant of Light.
Mherduwynn
05-07-07, 06:39 PM Yeah... but then our acronym would be LoL and that would just be sad. :)

-A
lordtiberiusfoxx
05-07-07, 06:54 PM As part of my Factionmaster responsibilities, I consider it important to make sure the Covenant is the kind of group you enjoy being a part of in game. As such, I'd really appreciate your opinions here if you've got a moment to share them.

Are you having fun on the CoL?

Is there anything you'd like to see changed or improved?

Have you noticed how ironically and sadly close our faction acronym is to SoL? :)

Take care,
-A

While we haven't played as much CoL as other factions in my gaming group (we had trouble securing someone to eat the faction, unlike other factions where we had volunteers), there was an instant love for CoL.

Why? Because the PCs were rewarded for being good guys. In no other faction... hell, in no other RPGA game are you rewarded for being a good guy. I would even go so far as to say that being good is a liability.

However, gameplay rewards for being good (like the CoL Blessing of Light and access to certain BED items) make the players feel good. Hell, it even encouraged someone who is not normally the best of roleplayers to cry out, "FOR JUSTICE!!" in game, and that makes me smile.

So keep that aspect up. As it stands, our Expeditions will be CoL-majority parties.

Light, Give me Power!!!
scarecrowrain
05-08-07, 12:54 AM Hello, Just wanted to respond to this thread.

We were asked for our opinions or thoughts on CoL, so I thought I would take the time to share them. They may seem negative, so let me take the time to say that they are in no way meant to be an attack or a flame.

Let me preface this with some information on myself. I work at a library, and one of my job duties is to provide programs for adults. About a year and a half ago, I started a D&D club, and it has been extremely popular. It is currently the most successful program at the library where I work. We have on average about six tables (usually about 35 to 50 people) and do this twice a month. So we see lots of players, and everything we do is RPGA. I DM many of the games, but there are also a few other DM's that work with me. All of them have years of experience, and work with me closely to provide the best service we can to the public.

So this brings me to this post. After each game, I take the time to talk to players and see what they liked about an adventure, about a dm, etc, to see what we can do to improve for the next time. The response I got from the CoL mods was very negative. During the first Mod in the series, I had several players tell me they weren't very happy with it. I asked if it was the DM, or if it was too tough. The overwhelming response was that that just didn't enjoy the mod. Now mind you, this isn't one or two people. It was about 15 different people that made this complaint throughout the day.

It got even worse with the next two mods in the series (not including the DM's marks). By the end, I had people asking me who wrote the mods, so that they could avoid all games by that person. I was actually shocked, because nothing like this had happend before. What ended up happening is that people stopped signing up for CoL games, started avoiding them. In the end, we had to stop having CoL games because people no longer wanted to play themand we were having empty tables. It's very strange, because the other Xendrik games are among our most popular that we offer at the Library, and there are always waiting lists for those.

I was very concerned by all of this, and did alot of research into why it wasn't working. I read all the mods, sat in on DM's as they ran games, ran mods myself, and spoke to all the players to get thier input. I would ask the players if it was the DM, was it the other players, was it too tough? Over and over, they told me the same thing, "Bad Mod." What does that mean? I'm not sure myself, but let me share a few things with you.

First off, let me commend the faction master on his imagination. I think he has a wonderful sense of imagination, and has some great characters in his adventures. I believe he is a great storyteller, and very cinematic. I would love to one day play at one of his tables with him running his own adventure, because then I think I could fully enjoy his mod. But in the end, not all of it translates into a good mod. I would like to point out just a couple of things that I believe may help.

1.) Don't pidgeonhole. Many of the encounters in the CoL mods seem to pidgeonhole players into diplomacy, or really overdone combats. I won't even get into the different threads that have been on the boards about this topic already in the CoL. Just remember, one of the most powerful things about D&D is that the players can fight, talk, hide, jump, cast grease and run, or do whatever thier imaginations let them. Provide the encounter, but leave the solution up to the players. Otherwise you really pigeonhole them.

2.) Be careful with the combat. There's been several posts where you have said that the encounters were overly difficult to make it seem heroic. The main problem here is that D&D is a heroic game already. The rules are built to make a cr 3 monster seem like a challenge to level 3 players, and the players should feel like heroes when they defeat this. When you over stack the combats, it's not heroic, but unfun for the players.

3.) It may make sense in your head, but it may not translate into the mod.
There are some encounters that were probably a blast to write, or were very creative, but do not translate well into a mod. A great example of this is in the Well of Woe expedition. I will be vague here. But there is a situtation where a human being comes crashing through a wall when the heroes are eating, and a monster comes in after the human. The natural response here, being a heroic game, is to save the human. But the mod wanted the pc's to not fight here, and to even use diplomacy...versus a non sentient creature...that doesn't speak.... This whole encounter goes against what is natural in players, that is to be heroic.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, i know it's a lot. And let me restate, this is not meant to be attack. I don't want to start a flame war or upset anyone. I, and all my DM's and players, truly appreciate and enjoy all the hard work that goes into this. It's helped create a fantastic program at a library that brings lots of adults in. I just wanted to share the collected response of dozens of players. Hope it helps a bit. Please feel free to pm or email me if you have specific questions. Thanks.
Mherduwynn
05-08-07, 08:27 AM Well, as the saying goes, if you don't want people to be honest, don't ask them to be.

Thank you for taking the time to write up your impressions of the campaign and I will certainly take your criticisms to heart. I've been concerned with some of the reactions to my adventures and this is a nice, concise listing of the things that I have done wrong in them.

I appreciate your feedback and I am sorry my work has turned your players off to the faction.

-A
Mherduwynn
05-08-07, 08:40 AM As a note, you don't have to worry about a "flame war" or negative reactions to your post. I would not have asked for feedback if all I'd wanted to hear was "Dude, you rock!". I ~want~ to know what I might be doing wrong or what players want.

After all, no one improves through winning.

Thank you again.
-August
Diablo05
05-08-07, 10:39 AM Dude, you rock!

(sadly have not had the chance to play a CoL mod yet... but you rock anyway :P)
Harliquinn
05-08-07, 10:41 AM I have played all the adventures in all the factions up through and including Faction Modules #4 and the Expedition tied to those (Cairn). Covenant of Light is not my primary faction (Crimson Codex is), however, I enjoy the character I have for the Covenant and for the most part I have enjoyed the adventures. I disagree with some of the reward basis, for example in one adventure we played, apparently if even one person wanted a reward (even if the other 5 did not), no one got the story object.

Other than some very tough fights for the intended CR of the party (Though this hasn't been as noticeable in the last 2 mods), my only real complaint is the rewards that are given as story objects. I understand the desire to have the good team do things for the sheer joy of doing good; however, it's also nice to be rewarded with something tangible after 4-5 hours of time goes by and you succeed in a mission. Looking at my story objects, 4-5 of them (About half of the ones I have gotten) have no mechanical benefit to the character and have never been referenced since. Many are "people smile at you more" or "the higher ups thank you for your efforts" and then nothing.

I don't think every story object has to be "You gain X powerful treasure," but I think at least every story object should have a mechanical effect of some type. This could be a simple increase to EV, increase to GP limit, access to even 1-2 new feats, spells, or PrCs, or satisfy some difficult RP prequisite. This is of course just my opinion, and I enjoy CoL as a whole, but I think that the rewards should be in line with the module's difficulty and actually reward (in a mechanical sense) the PC's for playing well and succeeding.

Thanks!

John
Mherduwynn
05-08-07, 01:08 PM Another very fair assessment.

While I can say for certain that every "not referenced since" story reward has a planned tie-in later in the adventure series, I can totally understand the frustration of getting story objects that have no apparent value.

However, I would like to note that story objects are, bu D&D Campaign design, not supposed to have a mechanical advantage as part of their basic structure. Most of the objects in the first two campaigns to use story objects had them as exactly that - story objects. They were plot devices or pieces of lore only.

I was trying to maintain that flavor in the Covenant of Light but it has come to my attention that many of the story objects in the campaign do echo your desires. In light of this, I think you'll be better satisfied with upcoming story objects and the rewards of future modules.

Thank you for taking the time to post,
-August
Harliquinn
05-08-07, 04:35 PM However, I would like to note that story objects are, bu D&D Campaign design, not supposed to have a mechanical advantage as part of their basic structure. Most of the objects in the first two campaigns to use story objects had them as exactly that - story objects. They were plot devices or pieces of lore only.

As Xen'drik is the first campaign I've had a vested interest in (Kudos to the great factionmasters and story writes who have captured such a dynamic campaign), I am not aware of those story objects. I did spend quite a bit of time in Living Greyhawk and Certs (As they were called) tended to have a mechnical bonus.

I can understand not wanting story objects to give substantial boosts. However, due to level bumps (Which I love by the way), the main thing that separates characters who actively participate in the campaign and those that do not are the story objects. Everyone eventually gains levels and gold.

That said, I think most of the adventures have had good suitable story objects. They don't need to offer huge bonuses, but can open up feats, spells, etc. that save a character some previous expansion slots without making it too hard for characters without story objects. One / adventure use abilities (Like the one from Well of Woe) or action point abilities are also nice effects. Again, the reward doesn't have to be big, it just has to feel like a reward (Since everyone gets the gold and experience for completing a module).

Thanks again for all you and the other factionmasters do. I plan to continue playing every adventure I can for Xen'drik :)

John
Mherduwynn
05-08-07, 06:50 PM You are more than welcome. We love what we do, after all, or we wouldn't be doing it!

:)

-A
dxyn
05-11-07, 02:01 PM Having read the above replies to the orginal question, I have to say for my part that I am having fun playing my CoL character. I really aimed for concept rather than technical ability as I jumped in with a Warforged Paladin without really paying much attention to the fact that a Paladin's prime stats are both -2 as a warforged. Still, there is something to be said for standing forth, exclaiming "For the Flame" or "By the Light" and smiting an undead horde.

That being said, I undertake GM duties for the local Cabal players and have found that there seems to be much more subtext in those mods. This could simply be due to the nature of the factions involved or it could be due to the relative GM skills, but there has been really nothing in the way of additional meaning in the CoL mods I've played. A deeper delving into what the Covenant's overarching goals are could make the faction less one-dimensional. It is all fine to fight for good, but there also should be an end game goal for the faction, since it is very unlikely that "good" will ever truly win the day completely. the Cabal mods seem to cover this through the obscuras and the competition over differing goals. I'm not sure how the Codex and BWC handle this since I haven't had a chance to play either of them.

Also, in the multifaction mods, it might be helpful to have a more meaningful purpose or mission from the CoL than simply be an example of what it means to be good. As a paladin of the Silver Flame, the character is already motivated to do just that, and though not all CoL characters will have the same outlook, it might give us all a chance to branch out from simply good to meaningful good.

In all, I've been very happy with the mods, especially Brave Soldiers, and I look forward to advancing my Paladin right on up in the CoL. thanks for the hard work done so far and here's hoping for more in the future.

d

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mherduwynn 05-07-07, 02:51 AM	As part of my Factionmaster responsibilities, I consider it important to make sure the Covenant is the kind of group you enjoy being a part of in game. As such, I'd really appreciate your opinions here if you've got a moment to share them. Are you having fun on the CoL? Is there anything you'd like to see changed or improved? Have you noticed how ironically and sadly close our faction acronym is to SoL? :) Take care, -A
Marcus Majarra 05-07-07, 03:44 AM	The storyline is good, so far. The only problems I see so far lie with continuity. In order for the storyline to remain coherent, adventures must be played in numeric order. Here's an example from the first arc of the Covenant: 1) In Divine Inspiration, the scions deal with Flame Father Garris. These dealings are important in that they foreshadow the events of Crisis of Faith and The Good Die Young. 2) Crisis of Faith and The Brave Die Young lead off the disappearance and death of Flame Father Garris. 3) It was technically possible to play Crisis of Faith and The Brave Die Young before Divine Inspiration. In a way, the first arc was railroading the story in a significant way. The second arc does this to a far lesser extent, and I'm glad for this. From what I've seen, only one NPC present in the fourth module can become unavailable through the course of the fifth one. His/her role is very secondary. My suggestion for future modules would be to make it so that the adventures of any given arc be playable in any order at no loss of storyline elements.
Peter_Seckler 05-07-07, 04:29 PM	I don't want to give out any spoilers so I'll send it in PM! In general, I have positive Luv. In fact they should call it the Lovenant of Light.
Mherduwynn 05-07-07, 06:39 PM	Yeah... but then our acronym would be LoL and that would just be sad. :) -A
lordtiberiusfoxx 05-07-07, 06:54 PM	As part of my Factionmaster responsibilities, I consider it important to make sure the Covenant is the kind of group you enjoy being a part of in game. As such, I'd really appreciate your opinions here if you've got a moment to share them. Are you having fun on the CoL? Is there anything you'd like to see changed or improved? Have you noticed how ironically and sadly close our faction acronym is to SoL? :) Take care, -A While we haven't played as much CoL as other factions in my gaming group (we had trouble securing someone to eat the faction, unlike other factions where we had volunteers), there was an instant love for CoL. Why? Because the PCs were rewarded for being good guys. In no other faction... hell, in no other RPGA game are you rewarded for being a good guy. I would even go so far as to say that being good is a liability. However, gameplay rewards for being good (like the CoL Blessing of Light and access to certain BED items) make the players feel good. Hell, it even encouraged someone who is not normally the best of roleplayers to cry out, "FOR JUSTICE!!" in game, and that makes me smile. So keep that aspect up. As it stands, our Expeditions will be CoL-majority parties. Light, Give me Power!!!
scarecrowrain 05-08-07, 12:54 AM	Hello, Just wanted to respond to this thread. We were asked for our opinions or thoughts on CoL, so I thought I would take the time to share them. They may seem negative, so let me take the time to say that they are in no way meant to be an attack or a flame. Let me preface this with some information on myself. I work at a library, and one of my job duties is to provide programs for adults. About a year and a half ago, I started a D&D club, and it has been extremely popular. It is currently the most successful program at the library where I work. We have on average about six tables (usually about 35 to 50 people) and do this twice a month. So we see lots of players, and everything we do is RPGA. I DM many of the games, but there are also a few other DM's that work with me. All of them have years of experience, and work with me closely to provide the best service we can to the public. So this brings me to this post. After each game, I take the time to talk to players and see what they liked about an adventure, about a dm, etc, to see what we can do to improve for the next time. The response I got from the CoL mods was very negative. During the first Mod in the series, I had several players tell me they weren't very happy with it. I asked if it was the DM, or if it was too tough. The overwhelming response was that that just didn't enjoy the mod. Now mind you, this isn't one or two people. It was about 15 different people that made this complaint throughout the day. It got even worse with the next two mods in the series (not including the DM's marks). By the end, I had people asking me who wrote the mods, so that they could avoid all games by that person. I was actually shocked, because nothing like this had happend before. What ended up happening is that people stopped signing up for CoL games, started avoiding them. In the end, we had to stop having CoL games because people no longer wanted to play themand we were having empty tables. It's very strange, because the other Xendrik games are among our most popular that we offer at the Library, and there are always waiting lists for those. I was very concerned by all of this, and did alot of research into why it wasn't working. I read all the mods, sat in on DM's as they ran games, ran mods myself, and spoke to all the players to get thier input. I would ask the players if it was the DM, was it the other players, was it too tough? Over and over, they told me the same thing, "Bad Mod." What does that mean? I'm not sure myself, but let me share a few things with you. First off, let me commend the faction master on his imagination. I think he has a wonderful sense of imagination, and has some great characters in his adventures. I believe he is a great storyteller, and very cinematic. I would love to one day play at one of his tables with him running his own adventure, because then I think I could fully enjoy his mod. But in the end, not all of it translates into a good mod. I would like to point out just a couple of things that I believe may help. 1.) Don't pidgeonhole. Many of the encounters in the CoL mods seem to pidgeonhole players into diplomacy, or really overdone combats. I won't even get into the different threads that have been on the boards about this topic already in the CoL. Just remember, one of the most powerful things about D&D is that the players can fight, talk, hide, jump, cast grease and run, or do whatever thier imaginations let them. Provide the encounter, but leave the solution up to the players. Otherwise you really pigeonhole them. 2.) Be careful with the combat. There's been several posts where you have said that the encounters were overly difficult to make it seem heroic. The main problem here is that D&D is a heroic game already. The rules are built to make a cr 3 monster seem like a challenge to level 3 players, and the players should feel like heroes when they defeat this. When you over stack the combats, it's not heroic, but unfun for the players. 3.) It may make sense in your head, but it may not translate into the mod. There are some encounters that were probably a blast to write, or were very creative, but do not translate well into a mod. A great example of this is in the Well of Woe expedition. I will be vague here. But there is a situtation where a human being comes crashing through a wall when the heroes are eating, and a monster comes in after the human. The natural response here, being a heroic game, is to save the human. But the mod wanted the pc's to not fight here, and to even use diplomacy...versus a non sentient creature...that doesn't speak.... This whole encounter goes against what is natural in players, that is to be heroic. Thanks for taking the time to read this, i know it's a lot. And let me restate, this is not meant to be attack. I don't want to start a flame war or upset anyone. I, and all my DM's and players, truly appreciate and enjoy all the hard work that goes into this. It's helped create a fantastic program at a library that brings lots of adults in. I just wanted to share the collected response of dozens of players. Hope it helps a bit. Please feel free to pm or email me if you have specific questions. Thanks.
Mherduwynn 05-08-07, 08:27 AM	Well, as the saying goes, if you don't want people to be honest, don't ask them to be. Thank you for taking the time to write up your impressions of the campaign and I will certainly take your criticisms to heart. I've been concerned with some of the reactions to my adventures and this is a nice, concise listing of the things that I have done wrong in them. I appreciate your feedback and I am sorry my work has turned your players off to the faction. -A
Mherduwynn 05-08-07, 08:40 AM	As a note, you don't have to worry about a "flame war" or negative reactions to your post. I would not have asked for feedback if all I'd wanted to hear was "Dude, you rock!". I ~want~ to know what I might be doing wrong or what players want. After all, no one improves through winning. Thank you again. -August
Diablo05 05-08-07, 10:39 AM	Dude, you rock! (sadly have not had the chance to play a CoL mod yet... but you rock anyway :P)
Harliquinn 05-08-07, 10:41 AM	I have played all the adventures in all the factions up through and including Faction Modules #4 and the Expedition tied to those (Cairn). Covenant of Light is not my primary faction (Crimson Codex is), however, I enjoy the character I have for the Covenant and for the most part I have enjoyed the adventures. I disagree with some of the reward basis, for example in one adventure we played, apparently if even one person wanted a reward (even if the other 5 did not), no one got the story object. Other than some very tough fights for the intended CR of the party (Though this hasn't been as noticeable in the last 2 mods), my only real complaint is the rewards that are given as story objects. I understand the desire to have the good team do things for the sheer joy of doing good; however, it's also nice to be rewarded with something tangible after 4-5 hours of time goes by and you succeed in a mission. Looking at my story objects, 4-5 of them (About half of the ones I have gotten) have no mechanical benefit to the character and have never been referenced since. Many are "people smile at you more" or "the higher ups thank you for your efforts" and then nothing. I don't think every story object has to be "You gain X powerful treasure," but I think at least every story object should have a mechanical effect of some type. This could be a simple increase to EV, increase to GP limit, access to even 1-2 new feats, spells, or PrCs, or satisfy some difficult RP prequisite. This is of course just my opinion, and I enjoy CoL as a whole, but I think that the rewards should be in line with the module's difficulty and actually reward (in a mechanical sense) the PC's for playing well and succeeding. Thanks! John
Mherduwynn 05-08-07, 01:08 PM	Another very fair assessment. While I can say for certain that every "not referenced since" story reward has a planned tie-in later in the adventure series, I can totally understand the frustration of getting story objects that have no apparent value. However, I would like to note that story objects are, bu D&D Campaign design, not supposed to have a mechanical advantage as part of their basic structure. Most of the objects in the first two campaigns to use story objects had them as exactly that - story objects. They were plot devices or pieces of lore only. I was trying to maintain that flavor in the Covenant of Light but it has come to my attention that many of the story objects in the campaign do echo your desires. In light of this, I think you'll be better satisfied with upcoming story objects and the rewards of future modules. Thank you for taking the time to post, -August
Harliquinn 05-08-07, 04:35 PM	However, I would like to note that story objects are, bu D&D Campaign design, not supposed to have a mechanical advantage as part of their basic structure. Most of the objects in the first two campaigns to use story objects had them as exactly that - story objects. They were plot devices or pieces of lore only. As Xen'drik is the first campaign I've had a vested interest in (Kudos to the great factionmasters and story writes who have captured such a dynamic campaign), I am not aware of those story objects. I did spend quite a bit of time in Living Greyhawk and Certs (As they were called) tended to have a mechnical bonus. I can understand not wanting story objects to give substantial boosts. However, due to level bumps (Which I love by the way), the main thing that separates characters who actively participate in the campaign and those that do not are the story objects. Everyone eventually gains levels and gold. That said, I think most of the adventures have had good suitable story objects. They don't need to offer huge bonuses, but can open up feats, spells, etc. that save a character some previous expansion slots without making it too hard for characters without story objects. One / adventure use abilities (Like the one from Well of Woe) or action point abilities are also nice effects. Again, the reward doesn't have to be big, it just has to feel like a reward (Since everyone gets the gold and experience for completing a module). Thanks again for all you and the other factionmasters do. I plan to continue playing every adventure I can for Xen'drik :) John
Mherduwynn 05-08-07, 06:50 PM	You are more than welcome. We love what we do, after all, or we wouldn't be doing it! :) -A
dxyn 05-11-07, 02:01 PM	Having read the above replies to the orginal question, I have to say for my part that I am having fun playing my CoL character. I really aimed for concept rather than technical ability as I jumped in with a Warforged Paladin without really paying much attention to the fact that a Paladin's prime stats are both -2 as a warforged. Still, there is something to be said for standing forth, exclaiming "For the Flame" or "By the Light" and smiting an undead horde. That being said, I undertake GM duties for the local Cabal players and have found that there seems to be much more subtext in those mods. This could simply be due to the nature of the factions involved or it could be due to the relative GM skills, but there has been really nothing in the way of additional meaning in the CoL mods I've played. A deeper delving into what the Covenant's overarching goals are could make the faction less one-dimensional. It is all fine to fight for good, but there also should be an end game goal for the faction, since it is very unlikely that "good" will ever truly win the day completely. the Cabal mods seem to cover this through the obscuras and the competition over differing goals. I'm not sure how the Codex and BWC handle this since I haven't had a chance to play either of them. Also, in the multifaction mods, it might be helpful to have a more meaningful purpose or mission from the CoL than simply be an example of what it means to be good. As a paladin of the Silver Flame, the character is already motivated to do just that, and though not all CoL characters will have the same outlook, it might give us all a chance to branch out from simply good to meaningful good. In all, I've been very happy with the mods, especially Brave Soldiers, and I look forward to advancing my Paladin right on up in the CoL. thanks for the hard work done so far and here's hoping for more in the future. d