Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 01-18-07, 01:22 PM	I'm playing a Changeling Rogue with the racial substitution levels, but I've run into many, many GM's who refuse to allow characters to assist on knowledge checks. This is a major problem with my character concept, as it virtually eliminates the value of the 3rd level racial substitution. Is there any broad limitation on aiding another on Knowledge checks? Is there an official ruling I can point judges to on the subject?
Harliquinn 01-18-07, 03:55 PM	In general, I don't think Knowledge skills can be used with Aid Another for a few reasons (Though nothing 'official'). Action Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t. Try Again No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place. The fact that using a knowledge check is usually not an action (You know it or you don't) and that it specifically says it represents what you know is probably support for that. Now, if you are researching something related to a knowledge skill then I would think someone could assist you with that. However, someone is not in general going to be able to help you know something you never knew. Harliquinn
catsclaw 01-18-07, 04:39 PM	However, someone is not in general going to be able to help you know something you never knew.I can see this argument, and I wouldn't let someone assist on a spot or listen check to avoid being surprised. But if you're trying to get someone else to hear a faint, ongoing noise, I'd allow an assist. "You hear that?" "What?" "That faint, high-pitched whine. EeeeEeeeEeee. Wait, it stopped. And now it's started again." "Oh, THAT." I can think of a lot of ways the assist with Knowledge would work, and not just in a library. "Remember those rumors of a new manifest zone that chronicle reported yesterday." or "It could be poisonous, but those fangs don't look sharp enough to me." or "If you squint it looks like a holy symbol of Aureon, but if it's that I don't understand the broadsword." Maybe not useful in the heat of battle, but plenty useful when there's a little bit of time to consider what's going on.
Harliquinn 01-18-07, 05:08 PM	If you do allow Knowledge Aid Another, keep in mind the person Aiding must be able to identify at least as much information as the person making the check. This becomes important when making untrained Aid Anothers or such things.
smerwin29 01-18-07, 05:31 PM	I've seen this ruled both ways at tables, and I have not seen any official ruling. I have ruled both ways depending on the situation, along the same lines as people have mentioned here. There are times when it just doesn't make any sense to assist (it's something that is either known or not), whereas other times we have all had situations where you have figured something out with the help of another person through discussion. As Harli points out though, I would not allow this situation: A character with a +25 modifier has to hit DC 40 to get a bit of truly esoteric knowledge. He rolls a 14 and just misses. I would not allow someone with 2 ranks in that Knowledge to assist. A PC would have to be able to hit the target number on his own, at my tables, to assist. Note this may not be right, but it isn't wrong either. ;-) Shawn
Istaran 01-18-07, 06:18 PM	In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone. It seems fair to interpret this as requiring you to be capable of making the DC. But otherwise, if the characters have time to be discussing matters, it seems reasonable to let one char give up their roll to know it by aiding another.
lordtiberiusfoxx 01-18-07, 07:31 PM	While you may not aid another (unless you're researching) knowledge skills at most tables (mine would be one of them), keep in mind that if there is someone with a familiar, they have all of the master's knowledge skills. If they speak a language, they may impart that information. Tiberius Foxx
catsclaw 01-18-07, 08:23 PM	In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone.It seems fair to interpret this as requiring you to be capable of making the DC.So, if there's a DC 27 Diplomacy skill check in a module, do you only allow those with +7 in Diplomacy to assist? If there's a wall that's DC 20 to climb, do you not allow the fighter in plate at the bottom to assist the rogue in climbing it? It seems that's what you're saying.While you may not aid another (unless you're researching) knowledge skills at most tables (mine would be one of them) ...The Changeling Rogue substitution levels strongly implies this interpretation is incorrect. The 3rd level substitution ability is called "Minor Lore", and represents "bits of stray knowledge". It gives a +1 bonus on all Knowledge skill checks, and allows the rogue to transfer that bonus to other characters whenever the rogue successfully aids another on a Knowledge check. This is in addition to the usual bonus aid another provides. Changeling rogues are designed to be superior face characters. At first level they get the ability to Gather Information in 10 minute increments rather than hours; to take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Gather Information; and to get a gut assessment of a social situation in 6 seconds rather than 60. I find it hard to believe the next substitution level is intended to be only useful in a library.
Istaran 01-18-07, 08:53 PM	So, if there's a DC 27 Diplomacy skill check in a module, do you only allow those with +7 in Diplomacy to assist? If there's a wall that's DC 20 to climb, do you not allow the fighter in plate at the bottom to assist the rogue in climbing it? It seems that's what you're saying. It's more than a little ridiculous that a half-orc with no ranks in diplomacy and 6 Cha can actually make diplomacy go any better fully 45% of the time. More likely if he speaks up in one of those 27 diplomacy situations he's going to make things worse. It also annoys me that DCs need to be an extra +6-+10 higher to compensate if you should expect the other characters to be able to assist. It's also not reasonable for the plated fighter at the bottom to assist the rogue beyond the first climb check, since the rogue would then be out of reach. If it's a short boost over a wall, fine. If it's scaling a 20 ft cliff.. the rogue is very quickly out of reach. The fighter should have to be in reach the entire time of that one move action. And really, probably should only be making a str check to assist, not a climb check (he's not doing any of the climbing involved himself, just lending some muscle). I would generally allow the assisted knowledge check if a) you have time to discuss. You don't have to be in a library. You can be picking each other's brains, so to speak. b) You need to be capable of hitting the DC. The DC 30 knowledge (religion) check to recognize the holy symbol of an obscure god from another plane is something few people are even going to be helpful at, let alone have a decent chance of recognizing. If you have a table of 6, each with a +9 knowledge (religion) modifier they don't get to have a 50% chance of knowing something that none of them could possibly know, simply because there's 6 of them. That's my personal interpretation. You have seen the rules text. Make of it what you will. I tend to make exceptions to the able-to-meet-the-DC-to-assist rule when the logic of it makes sense to me. Helping someone know something neither of you could possibly know? Not so much.
Harliquinn 01-19-07, 08:32 AM	As Istaran, Shawn and others have pointed out, it really is a DM call based upon what is going on at the time. If the situation warrants an assist, and the other character could do it on his own with a natural 20 so to speak, then allow the assist. As for the situations mentioned above: Diplomacy: Diplomacy has scaling DC's therefore, anyone is 'capable' of changing a target's attitude. Typically since Diplomacy is neither opposed nor has a fixed DC that you *must* hit (Your results are based on your roll in a scaled fashion), most people can attempt to assist (though I would rule if someone rolls a Diplomacy that would by themselves lower the target's attitude, it apply a -2 to the overall roll). Climbing: If the fighter is attempting to help someone climb by climbing himself, then he would have to meet the same climb check (or be able to). If he is merely helping by giving a boost or by offering a hand up, then likely a different check is called for (Strength, for instance). A lot of it is DM adjudication, and a DM should rule with what's both fair and fun for the players. There have been some checks in modules that almost require assistance (which is fine) and as long as the DM rules fairly, it should go well. Harliquinn
catsclaw 01-19-07, 02:28 PM	I've seen this ruled both ways at tables, and I have not seen any official ruling.FWIW, I submitted this to the WotC help email, and got this back:There are no printed restrictions on aiding another on a knowledge check! So aid away at the DM's discretion!Not the most useful of responses, I admit, but I think it generally supports the position that given time to confer (no assists on Knowledge checks to identify the creature that just jumped out of the shadows, for example) you can aid another on Knowledge checks. He rolls a 14 and just misses. I would not allow someone with 2 ranks in that Knowledge to assist. A PC would have to be able to hit the target number on his own, at my tables, to assist.I asked this as well, and that response was clear.You must simply be able to make the attempt (have the skill) then succeed on a 10 DC check to aid another.
Harliquinn 01-19-07, 02:36 PM	[b]I asked this as well, and that response was clear.[b] Quote: You must simply be able to make the attempt (have the skill) then succeed on a 10 DC check to aid another. The response may have been clear; however, it was also in direct error with the rules as written (Customer service cannot change rules, only clarify). Under AId Another In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone. Harliquinn
smerwin29 01-19-07, 03:03 PM	You make good points. Like I said, I do rule at my tables that a PC can aid another on Knowledge checks under certain conditions. The "Minor Lore" ability speaks strongly against those who outright deny aiding in Knowledge checks (although I have seen rules in later WotC publications contradict earlier rules before). In terms of WotC customer support, it is the RPGA's stance that while their "rulings" can be used to make decisions at the table, it is not considered rules with a capital R. (I have seen instances when WotC customer report was just flat out wrong.) I agree with the ruling for most other skills. If you have ranks (if an untrained skill obviously) and succeed at a DC 10 check, you assist. However, the PHB talks about it and says specifically, "The DM limits cooperation as he or she sees fit for the given conditions." To me, this says it all. Another paragraph talks about not allowing aid when "the skill restricts who can acheive certain results." Now I know that this talks specifically about skills that can only be used in certain ways for characters that possess other feats or skills, like trapfinding with Search/Disable Device, or Track with Survival. However, for me, this logic and common sense has to apply beyond just those synergistic tandems. I have been known to allow crazy and silly things when it helps out the player and adds fun to the game. In this case, however, I am going to continue to run things as I have, until errata or the D&D FAQ or another official source forces me to do it differently. And that doesn't mean I don't see or respect your position. I just can't justify the "reality of the fantasy." Shawn
Harliquinn 01-19-07, 03:10 PM	I have been known to allow crazy and silly things when it helps out the player and adds fun to the game. I think and agree that this is the most important thing a DM can do and should be paramount when making decisions. I like to think I keep that in mind for any game I run. I'll make things challenging, make the players sweat, but in the end I hope it enhances the fun of the adventure and makes it memorable. I'll sign off on the discussion as I don't have any more to add personally. Harliquinn
Shadowed Intent 01-21-07, 03:43 PM	Thought I would throw in with my variation. :D I almost always allow the aid another option. I am very generous with applications. After all, sometimes the 6 year old poionts out things all of the "adults" didn't notice. And yet, I don't completely agree with the rule as written. Sometimes, you mean to be helpful, but you despite your good intentions, you make things worse. I have a house rule, if you make the DC 10 roll you give a +2 bonus to the character making the attempt. HOWEVER, a result of 5 or less give a -2 penalty to the character making the attempt. You tried to be helpful, but made a mess of things instead. In my experience, this slows down the cha 6 half orc fighter with no ranks in diplomacy from saying, "yeah, me too" to "help" with those diplomacy checks. With 40% chance to help, and a 35% chance to hurt, it's makes it into a decision. Should I help or not? Do you want me to help? Do you want the wizard to help knock the door down? He may just get in the way and make it harder for you to get good leverage. Also, this allows characters to "pretend" to assist, but with a note to the DM, actually try to cause a penalty. A rarely used part of my house rule until XE came along. I understand that at offical tables, this would be a problem. But I just run home games, and it definitely adds a nice twist to the game. Sometimes, the players "know" they need that extra +2, and they struggle with, "should the half-orc make the diplomacy aid roll?" PS Great real world example. While making this post, I am cooking my 6 yr old daughter a cheese pizza, and listening to the Bears - Saints game. My daughter gets her older sister, then they come to me and ask if I set the timer on the oven. Turns out I didn't. I imagine I would have noticed whenl I smelled the burning pizza. I think it would be fair to say the two of them aided my profession(cook) roll.
smerwin29 01-21-07, 03:58 PM	PS Great real world example. While making this post, I am cooking my 6 yr old daughter a cheese pizza, and listening to the Bears - Saints game. My daughter gets her older sister, then they come to me and ask if I set the timer on the oven. Turns out I didn't. I imagine I would have noticed whenl I smelled the burning pizza. I think it would be fair to say the two of them aided my profession(cook) roll. One could make the argument that remembering to set the timer is a DC 5 check. Of course everyone should get a chance to make that. If remembering to set the timer was a DC 40 check, that is completely different. ;-D Shawn
Sieylianna 01-21-07, 05:48 PM	One thing to keep in mind is that anyone can make a DC 10 knowledge check, even if they don't have any ranks. Letting them roll to assist without having any ranks is wrong, IMO. Ed
catsclaw 01-22-07, 01:20 AM	One thing to keep in mind is that anyone can make a DC 10 knowledge check, even if they don't have any ranks. Letting them roll to assist without having any ranks is wrong, IMO.Yeah, I would never allow anyone to assist without ranks in a "trained-only" skill. And the "no untrained Knowledge skills past DC 10" rule is a case of the skill text explicitly limiting those who can use the skill in the first place (like Survival does without the Track feat, and Search does without Trapfinding), which the aid another description also prohibits.
Istaran 01-22-07, 05:23 PM	Shadowed Intent: I love your assistance variant, and hope I can remember it in the future to house rule it for home games. It bugs me a little that every member of the party who can possibly roll always does so without a second thought. Except for the occasional individual, such as myself, who finds cases where their character clearly would not even try to help. (such as on a diplomacy or gather information when I'm playing a character that never talks without being hit by a Touch of Idiocy first.) As to the cooking example, concider that even a Denny's cook (who has 1-5 ranks in Profession(cook)) would be of rather limited helpfulness to a gourmet chef. Giving a gourmet chef 10 underlings, each with 1-5 ranks of profession(cook), should not allow him to reach a pinnacle of gourmet goodness 20 DC above what he could accomplish on his own. However, he could perhaps assist all of them simultaneously, allowing them to cook enough better-than-average food for a larger group than he could feed on his own. (Particularly if he were an Exemplar, like Wolfgang Puck) Getting a dozen gourmet chefs to work together, however, might allow for such unspeakable masterpieces of chef-dom. Or at least something as awesome as any of them could manage on a take 20.
SYB 01-24-07, 03:58 PM	A parallel question. Is a knowledge check a set DC check (like picking a lock) or is it a variable result check (like diplomacy)? I would argue it is variable result. Yes, there is a minimum DC that you need to get any information at all, but higher results get better and more thorough information (just about every module I have ever seen supports this, as does numerous D&D stat blocks with knowledge DCs listed). Also, consider this odd, but meaningful example. Imagine a table with two characters that both have a +9 bonus Knowledge (History). If they are shooting for a DC 30, neither one can do it alone. If you don't allow an aid another (because neither can make it alone), they can't make it. But, if someone cast Fox's Cunning on one of them, then they could make it. Does it make any sense at all that the guy who, presumably does not know the knowledge (because he can't make it alone), suddenly does know it because he got smarter, yet can't collaborate with another historian to figure out an answer? Similarly, if one of the two guys had a +10 bonus, then the guy who could make it alone could aid the guy who can't make it alone, but not vice versa. In fact, if the guy with the +10 aids the guy with +9, the guy with +9 has a HIGHER chance of succeeding than the guy with +10 (the only one who actually can succeed normally), but the guy with +9 can't make it any easier for the guy with +10. Again, that doesn't really make any sense. I'd say that anyone with ranks in the knowledge skill should be able to aid (given circumstances allow), whether or not they can make the DC alone. Even a little bit of extra brainstorming should help some. -SYB
indel2001 01-24-07, 11:25 PM	For the record, I'd like everyone to know that our esteemed Factionmaster Merwin needs an assisted Knowledge skill every time he tries to tie his shoes... and he wears velcro laces.
smerwin29 01-25-07, 08:23 AM	I know who is going to be the first PC to die tonight. Shawn (whose daughter is helping him with his shoes as he types)
indel2001 01-26-07, 08:35 AM	You're an evil Demigog.
smerwin29 01-26-07, 10:12 AM	Indeed. I've actually been called worse. By my own family. On my birthday.
indel2001 01-26-07, 05:07 PM	And it was a term of endearment!
Butterface 01-27-07, 02:55 AM	What do you guys play in your home group? Is that the playtest group for Crimson Codex?
smerwin29 01-27-07, 09:35 AM	My local group consists of a few people in far western NY, ranging from Buffalo, NY to Erie, PA. They are a good group, despite the tendency to come onto message boards and insult me. ;-) They are the main group that playtests the CC mods. Between them, they have written a lot of LG adventures (interactives, Keoland regionals, and cores), written some Mark of Heroes adventures (normal and Delve Specials), and have judged at many conventions, large and small. Now I just need them to quit their jobs and ignore their families so they are available more! Shawn
Marcus Majarra 02-03-07, 12:04 PM	I generally allow for aid another to work on knolwedge checks under the following conditions: 1) Those aiding have at least 1 rank in the appropriate skill. Knowledge checks are trained only. 2) The character performing the check and those aiding are brainstorming ideas. Basically, I imagine the party discussing about how they remember some bits of information about the topic at hand, and the character performing the check consolidates all the information and fills out the blanks, to the extent of the modified knoweldge check result. Under these conditions, I find it even feasible to do in combat, as everyone pitches in to provide useful information on how to defeat an opponent.