Dragon Feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dalordetrius
07-15-06, 06:15 PM I've been considering design options with the Crimson Codex, and trying to figure out options for the Dragon Shaman. I noticed the Draconomicon was considered one of the optional materials, but I wasn't sure if you could spend one of your Expansion List slots on the metabreath feats. The Dragon Shamans do have the prerequisite of the breath weapon, afterall. Anyone know if there's a ruling on this?
smerwin29
07-15-06, 08:30 PM I cannot make official rulings, but if the chapter in the Draconomicon containing those feats is deemed accessible in the Campaign Standards, then I would say absolutely. As long as you unlock the feat with one of your expansion slots, then you should be good to go.
dalordetrius
07-19-06, 11:56 PM Thanks a lot for the reply, smerwin29! :-)
Harliquinn
07-20-06, 10:34 AM Currently in v.0.0 of the standards, only Chapter 3 is unlocked, which contains normal PC Feats, not the Dragon Feats. I too hope that the Dragon Feats (At least meta-breath feats) are unlocked for the Dragon Shaman :)
dalordetrius
07-20-06, 03:27 PM Ahhh, thank you for pointing that out, Harliquinn. So perhaps I'd best not get my hopes up too much and be disappointed. It sure would be great if they unlocked the metabreath feats, but maybe I'd better not hold my breath.
Harliquinn
07-20-06, 04:12 PM Yeah, I'm not holding my breath, though it still might go through. My problem is, I'm having trouble coming up with a series of feats that really 'improves' on the Dragon Shaman's abilities as written in the class (As opposed to taking feats like power attack that give additional abilities).
dalordetrius
07-21-06, 12:23 AM I've been having the very same problem myself. The primary thing that sets the Dragon Shaman apart from most classes is their breath weapon. The d10 they get for HPs is nice, but they don't get the feats to really replace a fighter. If one can't do much to improve their breath weapon, I guess that a Dragon Shaman would have to do the same thing Paladins do. Sure, they get some healing, but they only get the feats to really go down one, MAYBE two feat "paths" though they have a variety of potential options. It seems to me like without being able to improve the breath weapon at all, Dragon Shamans might wind up relatively weak. But, I haven't playtested it yet to be sure. Either way they just DRIP with flavor, and so I think it should be fun anyway. :-)
Harliquinn
07-21-06, 08:27 AM Yeah the flavor is the main reason I want to play one. However flavor (RP) is only part of what you do in a Living Game. There are combats, there are skill and ability checks, and there are encounters. Therefore, the Dragon Shaman needs to be able to contribute in meaningful ways through the use of well chosen feats.

You mentioned Paladins, and while they have some of the same issues, Paladins can benefit from many combat related feat trees (Power Attack being the most obvious). Dragon Shaman cannot take Power Attack at 1st level and get use of it (Caps at BAB). In addition, Paladins can take feats that require Smite Evil or Lay on Hands (at 3rd) which give a nice boost to their abilities (And some versatility).

The Dragon Shaman has a unique ability (breath weapon) that has feats to improve, but just no access to those (which I hope changes, but may not). Other areas that I could see a Dragon Shaman focusing some feats would be defensive feats such as shield or armor specialization, etc. With a decent DEX, Medium Armor, and Natural Armor later on, a Dragon Shaman could have a good AC. Other areas of interest might be to have Dragonmarks (Would have to use the Creation Cards) or other supplemental abilities that don't really expand on his class abilities. Also a dip of 1 level into another class such as barbarian, totemist, incarnate, psionic class, or something of that type might give a synergistic set of skills/abilities to the Dragon Shaman.

I myself am considering a 1st level of Barbarian for Martial Weapons, Fast Movement, Rage, and the +1 BAB at 1st. I think this might give an interesting edge to the character.

Harliquinn
dalordetrius
07-22-06, 05:59 PM The need to contribute to the party and not just have loads of cool flavor is the sort of reason I've been having some trouble deciding things with the Dragon Shaman. I've been preparing for the Phoenix Congames at the end of the month, and have never been to a Living event before, so I appreciate the forewarning. :-)

You're right regarding the limited benefit of Power Attack, I'd not considered how having the lower BAB limits its usefulness.

One option for a Dragon Shaman - even if they don't allow you to have access to the Dragon Feats from the Draconomicon, is utilizing one of your Expansion Slots to unlock the Ability Focus feat from the Monster Manual. An extra 2 to the DC of your breath weapon isn't grand, but it's something.

I've been considering what to do with the Dragon Shaman though as far as the party role goes. I think that while they do have a d10 Hit Die, given they only have Medium Armor Proficiency, I think they are intended as a second-line fighter. So I think there may be some benefit to upping your Dexterity, and taking a Longspear. Combined with Combat Reflexes, it should at least give you a decent edge. As you mention, Shield or Armor Specialization wouldn't be a bad idea at all. One thing I was considering is chosing one of the dragon totems that allow Hide and Move Silently, sticking to Studded Leather or Chain Shirt, and being the party's scout if we lack a rogue. Between the aura that gives a bonus to perception-related checks and initiative checks (to help you spot them before they spot you), and the ability to take a little more damage than a Rogue if you DO get seen, it might have some merit I think.

My understanding is that in Living systems, you have to take three levels of any class before you can take another? Or does Living Eberron not do that? Barbarian would be tempting to take a level in. I'd actually wanted to play a character from Argonessan (which I'm sure is spelled wrong) that was part of the dragon-worshiping barbarian tribes. Unfortunately, my understanding is that Living Eberron doesn't allow that. Would've been neat, though.
PrinceOfBoredom
07-23-06, 10:03 AM Out of curiousity, have you checked out the breath channeling feats from Races of the Dragon? I don't have the PHBII, so I don't know much about the Dragon Shaman's breath weapon, but those might help out. Of course they also require the dragonblood subtype, so you'd have to make a Spellscale to take them a 1st level, or take the draconic heritage feat and take the first one at 3rd level.
Harliquinn
07-23-06, 01:19 PM The Breath Channeling Feats require that you give up a spell slot to do the breath weapon, so that's no good for a dragon Shaman.
Reska
07-23-06, 03:33 PM The Breath Channeling Feats require that you give up a spell slot to do the breath weapon, so that's no good for a dragon Shaman.

Do they? All I see is that it takes up a use of the breath weapon (for those that have a set number of times a day) for the day. I don't see anywhere that it requires a spell slot. Unless you're thinking of Draconic Breath, which is a Draconic feat (needs at least Sorc 1 to even get it), and not a Breath Channeling feat.
Harliquinn
07-23-06, 05:39 PM I had it wrong. You are correct, they don't use a spell but they were the ones that required Dragonblooded. I think, as stated above, the Spellscale is really the only way to get that outside of playing a sorcerer.
dalordetrius
07-23-06, 07:00 PM Hi guys, I just wanted to thank you for pointing out those feats. While they might not be useful in the Crimson Codex, it might be fun to make a Dragonborn Dragon Shaman. Perhaps through one special card or another?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dalordetrius 07-15-06, 06:15 PM	I've been considering design options with the Crimson Codex, and trying to figure out options for the Dragon Shaman. I noticed the Draconomicon was considered one of the optional materials, but I wasn't sure if you could spend one of your Expansion List slots on the metabreath feats. The Dragon Shamans do have the prerequisite of the breath weapon, afterall. Anyone know if there's a ruling on this?
smerwin29 07-15-06, 08:30 PM	I cannot make official rulings, but if the chapter in the Draconomicon containing those feats is deemed accessible in the Campaign Standards, then I would say absolutely. As long as you unlock the feat with one of your expansion slots, then you should be good to go.
dalordetrius 07-19-06, 11:56 PM	Thanks a lot for the reply, smerwin29! :-)
Harliquinn 07-20-06, 10:34 AM	Currently in v.0.0 of the standards, only Chapter 3 is unlocked, which contains normal PC Feats, not the Dragon Feats. I too hope that the Dragon Feats (At least meta-breath feats) are unlocked for the Dragon Shaman :)
dalordetrius 07-20-06, 03:27 PM	Ahhh, thank you for pointing that out, Harliquinn. So perhaps I'd best not get my hopes up too much and be disappointed. It sure would be great if they unlocked the metabreath feats, but maybe I'd better not hold my breath.
Harliquinn 07-20-06, 04:12 PM	Yeah, I'm not holding my breath, though it still might go through. My problem is, I'm having trouble coming up with a series of feats that really 'improves' on the Dragon Shaman's abilities as written in the class (As opposed to taking feats like power attack that give additional abilities).
dalordetrius 07-21-06, 12:23 AM	I've been having the very same problem myself. The primary thing that sets the Dragon Shaman apart from most classes is their breath weapon. The d10 they get for HPs is nice, but they don't get the feats to really replace a fighter. If one can't do much to improve their breath weapon, I guess that a Dragon Shaman would have to do the same thing Paladins do. Sure, they get some healing, but they only get the feats to really go down one, MAYBE two feat "paths" though they have a variety of potential options. It seems to me like without being able to improve the breath weapon at all, Dragon Shamans might wind up relatively weak. But, I haven't playtested it yet to be sure. Either way they just DRIP with flavor, and so I think it should be fun anyway. :-)
Harliquinn 07-21-06, 08:27 AM	Yeah the flavor is the main reason I want to play one. However flavor (RP) is only part of what you do in a Living Game. There are combats, there are skill and ability checks, and there are encounters. Therefore, the Dragon Shaman needs to be able to contribute in meaningful ways through the use of well chosen feats. You mentioned Paladins, and while they have some of the same issues, Paladins can benefit from many combat related feat trees (Power Attack being the most obvious). Dragon Shaman cannot take Power Attack at 1st level and get use of it (Caps at BAB). In addition, Paladins can take feats that require Smite Evil or Lay on Hands (at 3rd) which give a nice boost to their abilities (And some versatility). The Dragon Shaman has a unique ability (breath weapon) that has feats to improve, but just no access to those (which I hope changes, but may not). Other areas that I could see a Dragon Shaman focusing some feats would be defensive feats such as shield or armor specialization, etc. With a decent DEX, Medium Armor, and Natural Armor later on, a Dragon Shaman could have a good AC. Other areas of interest might be to have Dragonmarks (Would have to use the Creation Cards) or other supplemental abilities that don't really expand on his class abilities. Also a dip of 1 level into another class such as barbarian, totemist, incarnate, psionic class, or something of that type might give a synergistic set of skills/abilities to the Dragon Shaman. I myself am considering a 1st level of Barbarian for Martial Weapons, Fast Movement, Rage, and the +1 BAB at 1st. I think this might give an interesting edge to the character. Harliquinn
dalordetrius 07-22-06, 05:59 PM	The need to contribute to the party and not just have loads of cool flavor is the sort of reason I've been having some trouble deciding things with the Dragon Shaman. I've been preparing for the Phoenix Congames at the end of the month, and have never been to a Living event before, so I appreciate the forewarning. :-) You're right regarding the limited benefit of Power Attack, I'd not considered how having the lower BAB limits its usefulness. One option for a Dragon Shaman - even if they don't allow you to have access to the Dragon Feats from the Draconomicon, is utilizing one of your Expansion Slots to unlock the Ability Focus feat from the Monster Manual. An extra 2 to the DC of your breath weapon isn't grand, but it's something. I've been considering what to do with the Dragon Shaman though as far as the party role goes. I think that while they do have a d10 Hit Die, given they only have Medium Armor Proficiency, I think they are intended as a second-line fighter. So I think there may be some benefit to upping your Dexterity, and taking a Longspear. Combined with Combat Reflexes, it should at least give you a decent edge. As you mention, Shield or Armor Specialization wouldn't be a bad idea at all. One thing I was considering is chosing one of the dragon totems that allow Hide and Move Silently, sticking to Studded Leather or Chain Shirt, and being the party's scout if we lack a rogue. Between the aura that gives a bonus to perception-related checks and initiative checks (to help you spot them before they spot you), and the ability to take a little more damage than a Rogue if you DO get seen, it might have some merit I think. My understanding is that in Living systems, you have to take three levels of any class before you can take another? Or does Living Eberron not do that? Barbarian would be tempting to take a level in. I'd actually wanted to play a character from Argonessan (which I'm sure is spelled wrong) that was part of the dragon-worshiping barbarian tribes. Unfortunately, my understanding is that Living Eberron doesn't allow that. Would've been neat, though.
PrinceOfBoredom 07-23-06, 10:03 AM	Out of curiousity, have you checked out the breath channeling feats from Races of the Dragon? I don't have the PHBII, so I don't know much about the Dragon Shaman's breath weapon, but those might help out. Of course they also require the dragonblood subtype, so you'd have to make a Spellscale to take them a 1st level, or take the draconic heritage feat and take the first one at 3rd level.
Harliquinn 07-23-06, 01:19 PM	The Breath Channeling Feats require that you give up a spell slot to do the breath weapon, so that's no good for a dragon Shaman.
Reska 07-23-06, 03:33 PM	The Breath Channeling Feats require that you give up a spell slot to do the breath weapon, so that's no good for a dragon Shaman. Do they? All I see is that it takes up a use of the breath weapon (for those that have a set number of times a day) for the day. I don't see anywhere that it requires a spell slot. Unless you're thinking of Draconic Breath, which is a Draconic feat (needs at least Sorc 1 to even get it), and not a Breath Channeling feat.
Harliquinn 07-23-06, 05:39 PM	I had it wrong. You are correct, they don't use a spell but they were the ones that required Dragonblooded. I think, as stated above, the Spellscale is really the only way to get that outside of playing a sorcerer.
dalordetrius 07-23-06, 07:00 PM	Hi guys, I just wanted to thank you for pointing out those feats. While they might not be useful in the Crimson Codex, it might be fun to make a Dragonborn Dragon Shaman. Perhaps through one special card or another?