Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lightblade 01-08-07, 11:00 AM	Hey, all. My Crimson Codex character is a Changeling Rogue/Egoist (racial subs for each) going for Shadowmind. (I think some of you may be guessing what expansion card I have in my stack). The problem is, while I love social intuition to death (that, and a reward from a certain module make my average gather info check take 10 minutes instead of 4 hours), losing trapfinding is kind of a sting. People expect someone with rogue levels to be good at that sort of thing. I've been fairly lucky so far in the adventures i've done, primarily because of all the expanded classes that have trapfinding as well (scouts, beguilers, and even the artificer is unique to Eberron), but I am worried that one day it will come and be unfortunate. What's more, by playing a non-trapfinding rogue, i'm denying my table the option of Taking one for the Team with a roguey fastplay. Question 1) Should I multiclass to get trapfinding? It would just be a one-level dip, and by the multiclassing rules, it would need to be at least my 10th character level. (Rogue3/Egoist3/Shadowmind3 to start) Although if the level bump at that point will be to 10, multiclassing at that point will kill my chance of the all-important +6 BAB. Question 2) If so, what class should I pick up? Scout? Mixing skirmish and sneak is silly Beguiler? I get an arcane spell list with gems like Glitterdust and Haste, if i'm inclined to buy wands expensive as those. Artificer? Scribe Scroll and some 1st level infusions hardly seem that great. Nightsong infiltrator? It's a PrC I wouldn't have too much trouble qualifying for if i wanted to (psicrystal = alertness), but Team Trap Sense hardly seems great. I mean, the point of getting trapfinding is so my team won't have to dodge them, right? Nightsong Enforcer? Ooh, +1 BAB, +1 sneak, what's this class missing? Oh yeah, trapfinding. Which leads me to two ideas, one of which may not be legal. Spellthief: d6 sneak, trapfinding, and out of boredom i can steal 0th and 1st level spells. Plus, i can use a wand of Haste. Psionic Artificer: If it's legal, half price power stones for utility powers is nice. Thoughts on either question?
smerwin29 01-08-07, 11:22 AM	"I don't expect you to talk, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die." I don't like to get involved in players' choices for characters. All I can say is play what makes you happy, stick to your character concept, and the rest will work itself out. As long as you tell your party up front that you don't have trapfinding, they have no right to get angry at you. They may still want you to find the traps though . . . ;-) Shawn
Sieylianna 01-08-07, 12:08 PM	They may still want you to find the traps though . . . ;-) He has evasion, so he's well qualified to open doors and move ahead of the party. Ed
Lightblade 01-08-07, 01:57 PM	Well qualified, maybe. But Lady Ivex wasn't brought up as a noble to open doors for her party :) Although by the time I could multiclass I'll have access to some 3rd level powers. I think some sort of Danger Sensing power will let me survive traps, and perhaps Time Hop will allow me to to send the trap (if not the entire door) a good half minute into the future.
lordtiberiusfoxx 01-09-07, 01:14 PM	I have a somewhat unusual expectation for rogues, or the "rogue role." I don't think that the expectation is to focus on any particular ability, I think that the role of a rogue is to skip encounters. As a rogue, it is your job to use guile, stealth, money, skill, cunning, and anything else you might have to completely cheat adventures. If I am playing a rogue, bard, swashbuckler, cleric with the trickery domain, beguiler, scout, or anything else of "the rogue slot," if my party gets into combat, I have to tell myself that I have failed. That being said, a rogue will fail, an awful lot. But that's why a rogue has thug... I mean um... a party. If you consider the party as a big hit point battery, it doesn't matter if you bluff your way past the gnolls to bypass an encounter and still get the xp, or if if you disarmed the trap before that encounter. You are still conserving the party's resources through guile. So as to trapfinding... do you want to have trapfinding? Or would you like to bypass encounters another way? Personally, I like trapfinding in the party, but one can get along without it. Tiberius Foxx
Istaran 01-09-07, 01:36 PM	My Crimson Codex character is a Changeling Rogue/Egoist (racial subs for each) Isn't that breaking the rule of only being able to take racial sub as a 1st level unlock, and only for the class you're playing at 1st level? Other than that I approve of the idea. Then again I play a sorcerer who has no damage dealing spells, and just moves people around the battlefield all day. Just make sure your party knows what role(s) you -do- fill and aren't caught off guard by your inabilities later on. A party doesn't strictly need to have the classic fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard combo to be successful. They do generally need to work as a team to survive, however.
Lightblade 01-09-07, 02:35 PM	Isn't that breaking the rule of only being able to take racial sub as a 1st level unlock, and only for the class you're playing at 1st level? Ahh, you failed to guess that I had the Uncommon Changeling expansion card in my stack, which unlocks all the changeling racial substitution levels (and the psion base class, and feats and items from the XPH, and the Shadowmind PrC, and yeah, just about everything I want to do with Lady Ivex. :) After reading what trapfinding does and doesn't let me do, i figure i can get by, although i may roll more reflex saves than I'd like.
Harliquinn 01-09-07, 02:36 PM	I'm guessing the Changeling Egoist is using the "Uncommon Changeling" Expansion card. However, the card could not be used as a Creation card to make a Changeling Psion. That would mean the character can't take the substitution until 2nd level. It should still be all legal though.
clem 01-09-07, 03:02 PM	Hey, all. My Crimson Codex character is a Changeling Rogue/Egoist (racial subs for each) going for Shadowmind. (I think some of you may be guessing what expansion card I have in my stack). Who knows what evil lurks in hearts of men? :incog: The Shadowmind knows. I'm following the same character build and struggled with the issue of trapfinding. I considered using a spellthief level (nice, as it also allows you and extra d6 of sneak attack) but there were a couple of issues. 1. I'd have to unlock it at first level. This would allow me to add it to as a secondary favored class so that I could take a single level dip. However, I have other plans for those expansion slots (healing consumable package). 2. It delays entry into the Shadowmind class, particularly as I wanted to take level 3 of changeling rogue for the knowledge bonuses. So, I've given up on the idea. My planned progression will be: 1. Changeling Rogue (Point Blank Shot) 2. Rogue 3. Changeling Rogue (Precise Shot) 4. Egoist (Psicrystal Manifestation) 5. Egoist 6. Changeling Egoist (Practiced Manifester) 7. Shadowmind 8. Shadowmind 9. Shadowmind (Deadly Precision) 10. Egoist 11. Changeling Egoist (Hello, bonus powers!) * Shadowmind Ought to be an interesting ride, at any rate. And, as others have said, Evasion counts for a lot as far as traps are concerned. Good luck with your character.
Lightblade 01-09-07, 03:20 PM	The two levels of egoist you throw in there are interesting, as many of those powers are nice. (too bad there's a bit of a lost bonus since metamorphasis is banned, but it still seems quite solid). If i went that route, i'd be temped to take the 6th level of egoist as well, for bab and saves. It leads me to wonder how long the campaign will actually go. LGR and MOH had lines up to 18th level, but LGR capped at 14, and it looks like MoH will just be 10+, unless i missed out on a level bump announcement. The capstone ability of "manifest cloud mind for 1PP everytime you sneak someone" seems quite powerful, especially since cloud mind doesn't come down after you make an attack (it grants another save, instead)
Harliquinn 01-10-07, 12:58 PM	I believe one of the faction masters (Shawn IIRC) mentioned that the current plans are that characters who play every adventure should make it to 19-20th level. Harli
smerwin29 01-10-07, 02:13 PM	If I did say this, I was possessed by some evil spirit. At the current time, I have no idea what the plans are. :-B
Harliquinn 01-10-07, 02:47 PM	Sorry, it was Skerrit who implied a high teens in This Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754010). He had mentioned mid teens for most people, and slightly higher for those who never die and do all the modules.
smerwin29 01-10-07, 03:10 PM	No problem. I'm just trying to keep tabs on when my blackouts are occurring.
Marcus Majarra 01-12-07, 02:46 AM	I feel like trapfinding can be foregone. You'll have to accept that trapfinding just isn't your party role, and concentrate on what you can do, and well for that matter. As it is, I'm playing a changeling rogue with racial substitution levels who has pretty much foregone your typical rogue archetype. In fact, he's more of a sage/investigator. Currently, his feats are Education and Investigate, and he's a quite decent Rogue 3 / Master Inquisitive 1. I may not excel in combat on my own, but my spotlight is mostly when knowledge on opponents is required (he has at least 5 ranks in every knowledge skill except psionics, plus other ranks in search, gather information, and sense motive), and he relies on having better abled party members to lead the battle. As such, he acts more as support in combat, and flanking nets him an extra 2d6 damage anyway. I'm quite happy with things as they are, what with the glyphbook and substitution levels helping me attain quite the decent knowledge skill modifiers.