Post/Author/DateTime	Post
githmorien 05-13-07, 09:16 PM	Hokay, I give. :surrender I've got this'ere Blackwheel character-with-low-mileage that needs to be kicked up to 7th for GenCon...and I have absolutely NO CLUE as to how to do this. I have never leveled a character under standard D&D rules before (the last campaign I played in used a hybrid of no fewer than five different systems, and something in the rules was always changing!). Given that, the prospect of attempting a five-level jump under RPGA rules -- which I'm hangin' on to by my fingernails as it is -- has me just a bit fazed! Is there any intrepid soul out there who is willing and able to walk one mathematically-challenged damsel in distress through this process off list? Rumor has it I'm an excellent teacher-of-things-I-get, so getting me on track just might help others for years to come! ;) Thanks!!
lseelba 05-14-07, 03:58 AM	Hokay, I give. :surrender I've got this'ere Blackwheel character-with-low-mileage that needs to be kicked up to 7th for GenCon...and I have absolutely NO CLUE as to how to do this. I have never leveled a character under standard D&D rules before (the last campaign I played in used a hybrid of no fewer than five different systems, and something in the rules was always changing!). Given that, the prospect of attempting a five-level jump under RPGA rules -- which I'm hangin' on to by my fingernails as it is -- has me just a bit fazed! Is there any intrepid soul out there who is willing and able to walk one mathematically-challenged damsel in distress through this process off list? Rumor has it I'm an excellent teacher-of-things-I-get, so getting me on track just might help others for years to come! ;) Thanks!! If you meet me in the Mayhem server on OpenRPG (google it) I'd be happy to help.
smerwin29 05-14-07, 07:24 AM	I have never leveled a character under standard D&D rules before (the last campaign I played in used a hybrid of no fewer than five different systems, and something in the rules was always changing!). Given that, the prospect of attempting a five-level jump under RPGA rules -- which I'm hangin' on to by my fingernails as it is -- has me just a bit fazed! Until you can get someone to sit down with you to help out, make sure you read the section on "Experience and Levels" on page 58-59 of the Player's Handbook. That tells you, in a step-by-step manner, how to take a character from one level to the next. If you start with a 1st-level character, and then follow this list 6 times, you should be there. Someone should then be able to help you with the XE-specific steps. Shawn Crimson Codex Guy
Timlagor 05-14-07, 12:22 PM	I'd be happy to help you by e-mail (send me a PM if you want)... but I don't see any reason why it can't be done right here. If you see me on OpenRPG I can help there too but I tend to be playing when I'm on. The big problem I have is choosing those blasted Expansion Slots. I'm vaguely contemplating setting up an XECharDiscussion Yahoo group but don't hold your breath... if somone else does it I'll certainly join and stick my oar in to everyone's ideas offer the valuable insight of my vast experience.
Shadowed Intent 05-14-07, 05:22 PM	I don't see any reason why it can't be done right here. I agree with Tim. Unfortunately, we need more specifics, what exactly is the race, class and level of your character?
Timlagor 05-14-07, 10:44 PM	I agree with Tim. Unfortunately, we need more specifics, what exactly is the race, class and level of your character? And equally importantly what do you want to be able to do with them? [If for some reason you don't want your character details to be generally known I'm still happy to help over e-mail.]
githmorien 05-15-07, 11:51 PM	Wow, thanks, everybody! :bow: I'm really feelin' da love here! I'm good with doing this on-list if it's not an issue; I was afraid of taking up too much space or somethin'. But if that's not a concern, then by all means: who doesn't love a party? Besides, methinks I need all the help I can get. So. A word of warning: I literally just discovered that I hit 2nd at the end of the Round Two of Well of Woe at GC Indy last summer :rolleye2:, so although I am at 2nd, none of my scores have been adjusted for it yet. Good news is, I haven't run this character since then, either! Corria Calazair, Valenar elf ranger. HP 10. AC 16. STR 14; DEX 16; CON 10; INT 10; WIS 14; CHA 9. FORT 2; REF 5; WILL 2. Feat: Blind-Fight SA/SQ: Track, Wild Empathy, Favored Enemy: Humans. Skills: Handle Animal 2; Hide 4; Listen 5; Move Silently 4; Ride 1; Spot 5; Survival 1; Tumble 2. Where I'm Going With All This: Ha! No, I'm still hammering that out (read: open to suggestion); but given the background I wrote for Corria's ancestor, she should have an elven guerrillero thing going on. Ranger-Revenant Blade-Dervish-Tempest could work...although a couple levels of High Elemental Binder might be interesting, if a bit tough to get to. Jury's still out on the Animal Companion: a Valenar without a horse is like cereal with no milk...yet a horse in Xen'drik's jungles doesn't sound like a stroke of genius, either. Did I leave out anything important?
Timlagor 05-16-07, 02:58 PM	The first thing to say is that this is not LG and it is not necessary to 'optimise' rigorously. This post is mostly about the Revenant Blade because you mentioned it but there are plenty of other good options. You didn't mention your first level Expansion Slot choice. (Rev Blade?) How did a Con 10 get you 10HP with Ranger 1. What is your second "favoured" class? (Fighter I hope) Con 10 is painful (enough that you might want to consider starting again -I don't know what story objects you would be sacrificing but that's up to you) but your only real remeby is to invest in an Amulet of Health. [EDIT: or take Improved Toughness if you can spare the Expansion and Feat Slots] Wisdom is too high if you aren't sticking with ranger for the spellcasting but the Will Save and Perception boost are nice. Thos look elike the Attributes of a character that intends to be pure Ranger up to at least 8th and be an archer -picking up the awesome Archery Spells (including Swift Haste) from Spell Compendium. Let me know if that works for you. My Valenar Elf is going to be a Revenant Blade: Ranger 3/Fighter 2/RevB5/??? I concentrated on the Physical attributes and will probably not actually go to TWF until nearly 10th level (when the hideous brokenness arrives) -clearly any RB needs Power Attack but you can use the Ancestral Guidance for it. You might want to swap out BlindFight too since that can be AG'd as well. If you want RB, you need to get your skill requirements lined up and take the TWF Ranger Track. You will also want Fighter 2 for the extra Feats but if you didn't take it as your 'Favoured' class then you'd have to take 3 levels which would hurt. You probably also want to capitalise on that Wis with enough levels of Ranger to get Spells. Your stat 'bumps' should go to Strength whatever your plan. Look at Wildrunner (RotW: Scream at 2nd, Pounce at 6th) and Exotic Weapon Master (CW: Flurry of Strikes and then probably Sunder and Throw just because you have to take something) -EWM would be a shoe-in if you didn't have to take the two dead levels in XE. [EMW was too blatantly written for dipping] Two Weapon Pounce is a good Feat in the meantime. My guy has a Magebred Warhorse (you can't get a Valenaar Warhorse and my guy was given a rather controvercial Patron Ancestor ..so they wouldn't let him have a 'proper' horse anyway). Forget the Tempest -it's just not that good a PrC -ther are lots of better options (like more Dervish!). What book is High Elemental Binder in? Expansion Slots ideas 2: Blade Bearer of the Valenar (if RB and unless Way of the Valenar Card) 3: Revenant Blade (if taking it) X: Ranger Spells if taking it that far 3: Dervish/Wildrunner/??? (for 10th Level +) 2: Weapon Mastery (PHB2: if taking Fighter 4) 2: Leap Attack (CAd: if you want it) 2: Shock Trooper (if you want to have a really disgusting Charge at 16th level: up to 8* attacks with +48damage from PA alone on each one and only the -2 TWF penalty to hit ..it probably doesn't matter that your AC took a -16 penalty at that point)** 1: Sacred Scabbard (MIC: if Good ..so all those Critical Threats confirm ...that's a Crit on 30% or your attacks) 1: Armbands of Might (unless archer) * Pounce from Wildrunner. +16/11/6/1 for BAB, +16/11/6 Off-hand (TWF/ITEF/GTWF). +16 for Haste.. possibly even a 9th attack if you can get 'Speed' on both ends of your DScimitar instead of Haste. [Dervish can do something almost as scary and earlier with the Dance ....actually the option of spending Action Points for more Dances per day makes that really really scary; but Shock Trooper wouldn't kick in] ** How Leap Attack got cut from LG instead of this I don't know ..though it's RB that's the worst offender in this combination (putting the Dervish in the shade takes some doing!): at least it leaves plenty of time for the roleplaying :D (if they don't ban it before we get there) That should have given you some ideas at least.
githmorien 05-17-07, 09:29 AM	Hokay, got the last post! That did give me a LOT to think about, alas I've got waaay more to say than I've got actual time to say it in this morning! So for the moment, I'll just skip to the Big Thing on my mind: The Darkwood Stalker PrC out of Complete Warrior is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind...save the hangup on orcs. As a Valenar, I'd much rather be kicking goblinoid butt, with a little House Vadalis thrown in for color. :D Does a similar PrC exist that might be a bit more flexible? Oh -- and the High Elemental Binder PrC is in Player's Guide to Eberron.
Timlagor 05-18-07, 12:42 AM	I can't think of one that is very close -I think there's a moderately similar one for Cleric-ranger hybrids but that's all about Undead. WotC wouldn't normally publish another very similar PrC because they'd expect the GM to adapt it to the PCs in their game. You could ask the FactionMasters but I wouldn't hold your breath. BUT the Orc thing isn't that big a part of the PrC so you may want to take it anyway. Are you planning to be an Archer or go with TWF? (or primarily 2HF and simply pick up the Archery Feats for a ranged option ...or 2HF using TWF for extra attacks wtih Armour Spikes?)
githmorien 05-18-07, 08:58 AM	Fueled by yet another bout of middle-of-the-night insomnia, I did some research last night and discovered that there are indeed several PrCs in a similar vein...in Masters of the Wild. :doh: LOL -- I do have a gift for ending up on the wrong side of many a door. :) Which reminds me: High Elemental Binder is on the Restricted list. Found it late yesterday afternoon. [follows Dexter back to da lab again] Alright, given Corria's not-so-killer Con, and my own tendency to play more towards finesse and stealth than outright tank-ness; the more I think about it, the less inspired the Dervish/Revenant Blade path sounds. She was doing more damage with her bow than her blades, anyway. :D So I just might go up the archery side instead of TWF....I just wanna get a good idea of where I'd end up if I did that. I don't love the idea of putting all my stock in a ranged weapon: you're the man while your enemies are 20-plus feet away, but things have a way of getting bowling-shoe ugly real quick if your personal space gets breached. According to the RevB rules, you can make Revenant Bows, Revenant Calvary, or other things by subbing the entry requirements. I'm considering that. Darkwoods Stalker is still in; I'm also looking at Shadowdancer, Horizon Walker, Exemplar, Wild Plains Outrider, and Order of the Bow Initiate (I'll have the shortlist tonight!). So basically, I can think of the advancement process as planning a trip: I have to know my destination before I start bothering with the details of how I'm going to get there, yes?
Timlagor 05-18-07, 01:00 PM	I'm rather giving you the powergaming options along the lines you mention ..not sure if that's really what you want but it at least gives you a benchmark. I'm also mostly addressing combat because selecting skills is relatively straightforward and most of the mechanics stuff in D&D applies to combat: out of combat stuff is much more often about how you roleplay and what decisions you make. Subbing the entry requirements is something you need ratified by your GM. XE doesn't really have a mechanism for that. Were you referring to Wildrunner in RotW? It's certainly very nice but didn't strike me as terribly similar to Darkwood Stalker. For an Archer I would take at elast 8 levels of straight Ranger (does Natural Bond boost a Rangers ACompanion?) spending several of your ESlots on Ranger Spells from Spell Compendium. (one lets you threaten in melee with a bow, Swift Haste lasts 1d4 rounds, guided shot gets past cover, ...) Invest in some elemental arrows to go with your ?Holy Bow in due course and be ready with an Entangle any time you are fighting an enemy outside. Pick up some Pearls of Power to keep your spells rolling through the combats. Make sure you buy armour (barding) for your doggy (best AC in general) and try to stay out of melee. The Strength is low for my taste but you should have the skill points to be a decent scout and excellent Tracker. Carry a backup bow because Archers are painfully vulnerable to sundering. Archery is definitely a viable option for you. You could go into Order of the Bow Initiate but the main damage an archer gets is from Rapid Shot volleys and OotBI just doesn't help: it's got only one really useful feature (the melee thing) and there's a spell that can do that for you. You can't even combine the Precision Shot with a Manyshot! One option that does look [I]very attactive is Scout. - Check our Complete Scoundrel for Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish. - Grab Improved Manyshot from Complete Psionics (not a psionic Feat) - pick up some 'non-crittable' favoured enemies. Then in any round that you move at least 10' you can: * take multiple attacks * add large amounts of skirmish damage to all of them * apply the skirmish damage to your favooured enemies even if they aren't usually subject to it. It's not Revenant Cheese but it's sitll very impressive and you'll have oodles of skill points (and Trap Finding). You probably don't want a PrC with this one: just ~4 levels of Scout and 11+ of Ranger. (you can change the proportions but you probably want the extra FEnemies and Feats from Ranger) HZW: nice PrC with lots of flavour. It's not terribly strong until you get to the 6th level though and even then isn't massively potent but it's powerful enough and perhaps more importantly it's pretty cool. * OotBI: I don't like this one at all as I said above * Shadowdancer: The Shadow Companion could be problematic with NPCs but it's very handy. Definitely a shady character! ;) An interesting PrC but definitely a case of "build me a shadowdancer" rather than a likely response to "where shall I gowith my Ranger?" Remember that the most important resource any character has in a combat is their actions Shadowdancers suffer from a desire to hide all the time which can be time-consuming (wasteful) in combat. * Exemplar: make sure you are really good with your Skills because that's what you are bringin to the Team. (iirc not certain of the features of this one but I'll look it up and offer an opinion if you're keen on it ;)) Wild Plains Outrider: CAVALRY -there are tow major hurdles for cavalry: - what if I can't take my mount? There are lots of places that large mounts can't go with you. If you are dedicated to fighting from hroseback then this can be a major problem. One solution is to be Small so that your mount is Medium and can go just about everywhere that anyone else can. Flying mounts are also extremely useful. - how do I keep my mount alive? Basic mounts can die very easily. One solution is to have a class that grants you a special mount and makes it tougher (ranger isn't really good enough iiuc) I haven't looked into what mounts we can just buy in XE but it might not be much of a problem: you can certainly buy the Figurines of Wondrous Power from the DMG which may be all you need. Your Attributes look like an Archer to me but it's your character.
Timlagor 05-18-07, 01:01 PM	Ahh you were looking at the Whisperknife?
KShaver 05-18-07, 03:16 PM	If you were remaking the character to make up for some of the missing con I would highly suggest making your first expansion item the elven ranger racial substitution levels. You lose a few hit points, but gain quite a few skill points (which might free up some attribute points spent in Int) and some nice Xen'drik specific qualities such as a boosted favored enemy drow and an elven hound built for the jungle. As far as PrCs that might fit your bill as a guerilla fighter there is one in Heroes of Battle that sounDs about right (Dread Cammando?). It is a pretty decent rogue/ranger assasin PrC, afraid I don't know how easy the prereqs are offhand though.
githmorien 05-20-07, 02:06 PM	Hmmm...let's try that again....
githmorien 05-20-07, 02:12 PM	Wo-hoa! Hold on there, hoss! You're getting a li'l bit too far ahead of me here! I must confess: I'm no munchkin. I'm not the one who kicks in the door and single-handedly lights up an entire band of 7th-level orc mages with 6 consecutive crits in one turn despite the fact I rolled a 2. I love to watch that guy, but I definitely ain't that guy. I tend to play strategically: to hang back, watch and wait until I can make that one, key, surgical strike...and then get the heck outta dodge. I'm a dirty opportunist, and a sniper. :plotting: I think like one, see the table like one, choose my actions like one. I only bring this up because I have discovered that this quirk makes me uniquely well-suited to some classes, and a total train wreck in others. I've played a dervish, I've played a scout; and by the time those two characters were retired, my God, was my DM ever ready to kill me! :rant: I think the moral of that story is that even the finest of tools is useless in the hands of someone who cannot use it properly. I think that if we build toward my strengths, we'll both be most pleased with the end result. ;) Regarding the Scout: the (second) biggest problem I encountered there was hideously low attack damage due to the class' laughable weapon proficiencies (which was deep, given that I was playing a weretiger!). Tell me: as you add classes, are the skills and proficiencies cumulative, or does each new class' bennies replace the ones that came before? LOL -- not Races of the Wild, Masters of the Wild. I think it was written under 3.0 rules; I pray that the Rules Gnomes will remember us elf-lovin' woodsy types as they make their way through the Complete series. MotW isn't campaign-legal so it's a dead horse, but the PrC I was thinking of from it was Foe Hunter. You've mentioned "Ranger through 8th" several times; I've been meaning to ask you: what's so special about 8th? The Eberron setting sez that a druid or ranger's animal companion has to be one that occurs naturally in his region of origin...and "dog" isn't on the list for Valenar (which blows my mind: I mean, who doesn't have DOGS?!?). Thus, the Elven Hound idea may be a no-go. I will have to find out; I'd actually had the same idea! The Fig of Wonderous Power idea is ingenious! Now what's the story on the Holy Bow? Oooh, but before I get carried away -- I've got that rotten Charisma score: can I even use arcane-magic items? I'd come to much the same conclusion about the Order of the Bow Initiate. I'll let the Outrider idea go, too. Horizon Walker's definitely "in". So, that leaves Darkwood Stalker and Shadowdancer. I could be dead wrong, but I thought that given my need to stick to light armor, my Con score, and my high Dex, the Shadowdancer's evasive abilities would be a really good thing (if you can't take the hit, get outta the way!). Hide in Plain Sight would be good for setting up ambushes, and Shadow Jump lends a little extra mobility for getting into -- or out of -- those hard-to-reach places. At least, that was the line of thinking. What issues might I be overlooking? Am I correct in my assessment that between levels 1 and 4, the only thing Darkwood Stalker gets me that Shadowdancer doesn't is a built-in favored enemy and sneak attack? How would you say they stack up against each other if I'm trying to choose between them? Finally, because I like to see ALL my options before making decisions, I did note Avenging Executioner out of Complete Scoundrel, and Dread Commando from Heroes of Battle. But I don't have either book, so I've no idea what they do. Anybody? Anybody?? KShaver: racial sub levels, eh? Hmmm...might solve the hound problem...keep forgetting about those pesky drow (anyone know what things are like between the drow and their cousins in Aerenal and Valenar?)....yessir, that sounds like a winner! I do believe I'll do that. Er, now how do I fill out that Expansion sheet?
dreamwolf 05-20-07, 02:28 PM	Dread Commando gives you sudden strike dice (sneak attack, but only against foes without DEX bonus, no flanking). It also lets you reduce armor check penalties. But coolest of all, IMHO, is the team initiative bonus. You help all allies within 30' react to danger more quickly.
Timlagor 05-20-07, 05:32 PM	I'm getting the impression that you're more familiar with older versions of the rules. I must confess: I'm no munchkin. I'm not the one who kicks in the door and single-handedly lights up an entire band of 7th-level orc mages with 6 consecutive crits in one turn despite the fact I rolled a 2. I love to watch that guy, but I definitely ain't that guy. Be careful with words like "munchkin": they have different meanings to different people but that one is almost universally considered derogatory. I tend to play strategically: to hang back, watch and wait until I can make that one, key, surgical strike...and then get the heck outta dodge. That's fine if you're not leaving your team out to dry while you wait. It's important to realise that unless you play all your games at home with a fixed group you won't know what other characters will be at the table until you start or how well the GM will respond to your strategies. I think the moral of that story is that even the finest of tools is useless in the hands of someone who cannot use it properly. I think that if we build toward my strengths, we'll both be most pleased with the end result. ;) Well that's certainly true. I'm just throwing ideas out to give you an idea what can be achieved. You don't have to take them. Regarding the Scout: the (second) biggest problem I encountered there was hideously low attack damage due to the class' laughable weapon proficiencies (which was deep, given that I was playing a weretiger!). Tell me: as you add classes, are the skills and proficiencies cumulative, or does each new class' bennies replace the ones that came before? You keep your weapon proficiencies from all the classes you take so one level of a class with Martial Weapon Proficiencies will deal with that one. You get skills on a per-level basis. [we are talking about Scout from Complete Adventurer right?] Shortbow is only 1 less damage than a Longbow on average. but yeah it's nicer to get the Martial weapons. Nonetheless you shouldn't get overexcited about weapon proficiencies: weapon choice actually makes only a small contribution to damage once you get out of hte 'baby levels'. The big drawbacks to Scout are the lack of full BAB and the loss of the full attack any time you get your skirmish damage (and AC) ...unless you can get Pounce (or Greater Manyshot). LOL -- not Races of the Wild, Masters of the Wild. I think it was written under 3.0 rules; I pray that the Rules Gnomes will remember us elf-lovin' woodsy types as they make their way through the Complete series. MotW isn't campaign-legal so it's a dead horse, but the PrC I was thinking of from it was Foe Hunter. ahh yeah. You won't see 3.0 stuff in the RPGA. You've mentioned "Ranger through 8th" several times; I've been meaning to ask you: what's so special about 8th? That's when you get your first Second Level spell. (specifically Swift Haste) 11th is also very nice since you get both 3rd level spells and Improved Precise Shot. The Eberron setting sez that a druid or ranger's animal companion has to be one that occurs naturally in his region of origin...and "dog" isn't on the list for Valenar (which blows my mind: I mean, who doesn't have DOGS?!?). Thus, the Elven Hound idea may be a no-go. I will have to find out; I'd actually had the same idea! I was thinking of the Riding Dog. You can certainly buy them so I'd be surprised if you can't get one as your AC. (Elven Hound is a different matter entirely) The Fig of Wonderous Power idea is ingenious! Now what's the story on the Holy Bow? Oooh, but before I get carried away -- I've got that rotten Charisma score: can I even use arcane-magic items? Charisma has nothing to do with it. I don't know where you're getting that one from... unless you're thinking of UMD which is not required. I could be dead wrong, but I thought that given my need to stick to light armor, my Con score, and my high Dex, the Shadowdancer's evasive abilities would be a really good thing (if you can't take the hit, get outta the way!). Hide in Plain Sight would be good for setting up ambushes, and Shadow Jump lends a little extra mobility for getting into -- or out of -- those hard-to-reach places. At least, that was the line of thinking. What issues might I be overlooking? Shadowdancer is good for scouting and the Shadow can be amazing against things that can't hurt it. BUT - You lose BAB (which ultimately means fewer attacks) - You don't get Sneak Attack. - Any time you spend hiding once combat breaks out is time you aren't helping your friends win the fight. In a skirmishing party this can be ok because you all hide but if even one person is left out there taking all the enemy attacks there's only limitted benefit... still at least it's better than sucking up resources as you get pounded upon with low AC and can't get away or turn on the party because you'e been Dominated. - You also need the weak Dodge+Mobility Feats to get in (be sure to pick up Elusive Target once you have MObility) There's nothing wrong with them.. it's just that they tend to be the focus of the character rather than something you just 'pick up'. If you're good enough at scouting you can change the nature of encounters and thereby make up for a lack of combat prowess. Am I correct in my assessment that between levels 1 and 4, the only thing Darkwood Stalker gets me that Shadowdancer doesn't is a built-in favored enemy and sneak attack? How would you say they stack up against each other if I'm trying to choose between them? You missed: +1 BAB +3 Fort Save Both of those are significant They also have different skill lists and entry requirements. I've never seen either in play so perhaps someone else can offer some thoughts... Finally, because I like to see ALL my options before making decisions, I did note Avenging Executioner out of Complete Scoundrel, and Dread Commando from Heroes of Battle. But I don't have either book, so I've no idea what they do. Anybody? Anybody?? Dread Commando is an extremely powerful 5 level PrC which seems to offer just about everything you could want: d8HD, BAB Sudden Strike, SKills and a nice boost to stealthyness in armour. the only thing it doesn't offer if good Fort or Will saves (...or all the other Features that you might get from another PrC). Avenging Executioner looks rather weaker and seems to rely on the rather weak Intimidate mechanics ..using your Cha modifier so probably not for you anyway. KShaver: racial sub levels, eh? Hmmm...might solve the hound problem...keep forgetting about those pesky drow (anyone know what things are like between the drow and their cousins in Aerenal and Valenar?)....yessir, that sounds like a winner! I do believe I'll do that. Er, now how do I fill out that Expansion sheet? I'm pretty sure the Drow don't get on with other Elves in any setting.. but it's probably worth checking.. they're definitely different in Eberron.
githmorien 05-20-07, 09:44 PM	I'm just throwing ideas out to give you an idea what can be achieved. Yes, yes! And I appreciate them tremendously; they're quite clever! Which is all the more reason why I wouldn't wanna have you wastin' fab ideas I know good and well I wouldn't be able to justice to. [we are talking about Scout from Complete Adventurer right?] Yessir! Nonetheless you shouldn't get overexcited about weapon proficiencies: weapon choice actually makes only a small contribution to damage once you get out of hte 'baby levels'. LOL -- I dunno, even at 12th, it can be pretty dang tough to coax much damage out of a quarterstaff! Probably didn't help that I couldn't seem to get TWF to save my life...but that's another story. That's when you get your first Second Level spell. (specifically Swift Haste) Ahhhh, so! What exactly does Swift Haste do, and what's it out of? I was thinking of the Riding Dog. You can certainly buy them so I'd be surprised if you can't get one as your AC. (Elven Hound is a different matter entirely) Mmmm...the Campaign Standards are pretty specific about the region-of-origin thing; l'll find our Friendly Neighborhood Factionmaster and report back. Charisma has nothing to do with it. I don't know where you're getting that one from... unless you're thinking of UMD which is not required. UMD? Not exactly...I was thinking about two things: the Consumable Item package (which requires a 12 Charisma to take in the first place) and bardic/sorcerer's scrolls, which require a certain Charisma score to cast, too. Doesn't appear that any of the items you mentioned so far are ability-dependent, though, so scratch that. :) Dread Commando is an extremely powerful 5 level PrC which seems to offer just about everything you could want: d8HD, BAB Sudden Strike, SKills and a nice boost to stealthyness in armour. the only thing it doesn't offer if good Fort or Will saves (...or all the other Features that you might get from another PrC). With a 14 WIS, I should be more or less okay on the Will Saves, no? Limited Fort probably means this class wasn't meant to take most enemies head-on; I imagine it would be at its best either a little ahead of the rest of the party, or with other party members that can help set up distractions. That does sound interesting! Avenging Executioner looks rather weaker and seems to rely on the rather weak Intimidate mechanics ..using your Cha modifier so probably not for you anyway. ROTFLMAO! I would have to agree with you there! So, so far I know that I will take the Elf Ranger racial sub levels as my first Expansion Item. It looks like that will require a shift in my Favored Enemy, so for logic's sake, I'll take undead. I wanna take the sub levels at 1st and 4th, so does this cost me two slots -- meaning I'm booked until 3rd; or four slots, meaning I wouldn't get anything else until 5th?
Herrbard 05-21-07, 06:49 AM	So, so far I know that I will take the Elf Ranger racial sub levels as my first Expansion Item. It looks like that will require a shift in my Favored Enemy, so for logic's sake, I'll take undead. I wanna take the sub levels at 1st and 4th, so does this cost me two slots -- meaning I'm booked until 3rd; or four slots, meaning I wouldn't get anything else until 5th? Per the XECS, racial sub levels are two slots to unlock, and gives you the option to take all the benifits from the substitutions at whatever level they become available (1st and 4th, in your case). Your third level expansion slot is still open for play.
Timlagor 05-21-07, 07:37 AM	LOL -- I dunno, even at 12th, it can be pretty dang tough to coax much damage out of a quarterstaff! Probably didn't help that I couldn't seem to get TWF to save my life...but that's another story. Shillelagh + Spikes All the usual options still apply too: - High strength - Power Attack (wield it 2 handed) - Shock trooper You're right that TWF is generally less damaging but I don't think there's anyone who doesn't get proficiency with a 2h Weapon of some sort. A Halberd is clearly better than a Spear but the difference isn't that great by the time you are adding 20+ damage in bonuses. Ahhhh, so! What exactly does Swift Haste do, and what's it out of? Haste on yourself for 1d4 rounds as a swift action. Spell Compendium. (Saves you 10,000gp for the boots) ..though it's less important if you go with the Skirmish route. Mmmm...the Campaign Standards are pretty specific about the region-of-origin thing; l'll find our Friendly Neighborhood Factionmaster and report back. Good plan. I'd be surprised if you had trouble with a Riding Dog though. With a 14 WIS, I should be more or less okay on the Will Saves, no? There ain't no such thing as too big a Save Bonus.
githmorien 05-21-07, 09:21 PM	Per the XECS, racial sub levels are two slots to unlock, and gives you the option to take all the benifits from the substitutions at whatever level they become available (1st and 4th, in your case). Your third level expansion slot is still open for play. Dig it! Thanks!
githmorien 05-21-07, 09:34 PM	Man...I was looking over my pile o' game stuff today; I can't believe how much I've learned here already! Thank you all so much for doing this; I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate it! Hokay, so just for kicks, I put the stat-sheet thingies ($20 techincal term there) for the Ranger, Horizon Walker, and Shadowdancer side by side, and now I think I see what you were telling me about the bonuses. :lightbulb That particular combination, for example, would leave me with a hole the size of Asia as far as Will saves go, and the Shadowdancer's BAB progression is sluggish despite coming with some great toys. If I were to take this group, I'd need to come up with some novel way of filling the Will gap, which would be sort of a drain on resources, since I already have the CON issue to deal with (we'll come back to that later). Am I getting it yet??? I although I've this creeping suspicion that they'll be similar, what does the Dread Commando's bonus-progression look like? Does it come up short in Will, too?
Timlagor 05-22-07, 09:22 AM	Indeed it does. Most full-BAB classes are short on Will. It is a fact of D&D that fighter-types tend to have poor will saves. This is generally just something you have to live with and there are ways to deal with it. It also means that the PRCs with good will saves get special attention: Pious Templar and Occult Slayer particularly. (Circle of) Protection from Evil is a wonderful preventative for most of the Will-save problems you may have. Also bear in mind that it is normal to invest in a Cloak/vest of Resistance to help your Saves.
githmorien 05-23-07, 08:50 AM	Indeed it does. Most full-BAB classes are short on Will. It is a fact of D&D that fighter-types tend to have poor will saves. Yeah, as I was flipping through the PrC part of the DMG the other night, I really noticed that for the very first time. As you can see, those details hadn't been real high on my list of considerations in picking a class! I'm learning to see the game in a rather different light now. :) It also means that the PRCs with good will saves get special attention: Pious Templar and Occult Slayer particularly. Funny you should mention that, 'cause it does bring me to my next question. I've decided to go Ranger --> Dread Commando --> Shadowdancer. Between those classes, I'd like to take a level or two of Secondary Favored Class. I didn't see the SFC part when I did this last year (I was wondering what the heck you were talking about when you mentioned it several posts ago!), so I still need to choose one. Given the progression I'm planning, I imagine Fighter would be the most logical option; I could certainly use the extra feats. But what would you say about cleric?
KShaver 05-23-07, 10:15 AM	So, so far I know that I will take the Elf Ranger racial sub levels as my first Expansion Item. It looks like that will require a shift in my Favored Enemy, so for logic's sake, I'll take undead. I wanna take the sub levels at 1st and 4th, so does this cost me two slots -- meaning I'm booked until 3rd; or four slots, meaning I wouldn't get anything else until 5th? Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. As to elves and drow: I don't know if they hate each other, but they certainly don't really get along that well. The drow were the elves who decided to stay behind, the other elves decided to leave. Difference of opinion and all that. As to animal companion: Yes, the racial substitution levels will open up elven hound regardless of what region you are from. The hound itself could easily be from Xen'drik as it is one of the primary jungle regions of Eberron. Note that while the hound is very similar to a riding dog or wolf at its base hit dice, it advances much better then either of those two, which is good because rangers don't get to add very many hit dice to their animal companions to begin with. This is due to the fact that it is a magical beast, which means as it advances in hit dice it gets better hit points and more base attack bonus than a regular animal. If you feel the pet starting to fall behind in hit dice because rangers get smaller pets or because of PrCs that don't add to the pet, then consider picking up the natural bond feat at some point. As to slot costs: To buy racial substitution levels you only pay the slot cost once, and it has to be at first and of the class you take at first. Once you've payed the slot cost you can decide at any of the levels that racial substitution are available to take them or not to take them. This means you can't buy any other 1st level only expansion items with slots, but it at least leaves your slots at 3+ free, meanining by the time you are picking a 2nd feat you have that open if you need. Given the progression I'm planning, I imagine Fighter would be the most logical option; I could certainly use the extra feats. But what would you say about cleric? Actually if you had to add another class I'd consider druid over cleric. Since you are already in light armor, finding such made of natural materials is easy, the Eberron book has some specific examples already available. It is better for skills. Druid gives more skill points and have a list much closer to what a ranger would want then a cleric. Not to mention just having a druid level gives you a +2 to a couple of important ranger skills (i.e. survival). Lastly it adds directly to your pet level calculation, unlike the ranger levels which only add 1/2. Overall the only reason that one would take cleric over druid in this case would be if there were specific domain abilities or spells that you wanted to use. Generally though, druid spells are going to be better for a ranger. Personally I'd suggest not taking a 2nd base class. If you can go ranger 6, then get into dread commando from there, do it. Ranger 6 is a good stopping point for saves, bonus feats, and pet levels. Another item to look at are all the new ranger spells in the spell compendium. There are quitea few usefull 1st level spells in there. These would of course require expansion slots to open up, but I know my CoS ranger took a couple of them (After paying the slots for ironwood body, he is a woodforged with a quarterstaff and a pouch full of potions of shillelagh).
Timlagor 05-23-07, 12:19 PM	Funny you should mention that, 'cause it does bring me to my next question. I've decided to go Ranger --> Dread Commando --> Shadowdancer. Between those classes, I'd like to take a level or two of Secondary Favored Class. I didn't see the SFC part when I did this last year (I was wondering what the heck you were talking about when you mentioned it several posts ago!), so I still need to choose one. Given the progression I'm planning, I imagine Fighter would be the most logical option; I could certainly use the extra feats. But what would you say about cleric? I'm no expert on Shadow Dancers. I recommend looking them up on the Character Optimization boards to see what clever things can be done with them Cleric is rarely a very bad choice. You have the Wisdom and Domain Powers can be extremely good along with boosts to Fort and Will ..but keep a very close eye on your BAB. Rogue would also work well -Dread Commando has the crucial Search and Disable Device skills on its list. Rogue also makes the delectable Staggering Strike (?CAd ?CW) an option. Make sure you take Elusive Target once you have Dodge and Mobility. Fighter obviously gives you more feats but I'm not sure the ones you really want are on the Fighter list. Are you planning to be an Archer or a Meleeist?
githmorien 05-23-07, 10:59 PM	Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. Welcome back! Better late than never, I always say -- but that's probably 'cause I'm usually late. As to animal companion: Yes, the racial substitution levels will open up elven hound regardless of what region you are from. YAY!! :w00t: I will hug him, and pet him, and squeeze him, and call him 'George'.... Note that while the hound is very similar to a riding dog....it advances much better then either of those two....[It] is a magical beast, which means as it advances in hit dice it gets better hit points and more base attack bonus than a regular animal. This may be a kinda dense question, but with all that advancing and carrying on, does that mean I'll need to keep a character sheet for Mr. Hound, too? Actually if you had to add another class I'd consider druid over cleric. Since you are already in light armor, finding such made of natural materials is easy, the Eberron book has some specific examples already available. It is better for skills. Druid gives more skill points and have a list much closer to what a ranger would want then a cleric. Not to mention just having a druid level gives you a +2 to a couple of important ranger skills (i.e. survival). Lastly it adds directly to your pet level calculation, unlike the ranger levels which only add 1/2. Druid. Dude. I sure hate that never even crossed my mind! (McFly....) I saw that Valenar clerics get access to the War Domain, and I stopped right there as all the wonderful things a pointy-eared expansionist might do with that paraded through my head. :evillaugh However, you're right: druid would make more sense. Truth be told, I'll be a feat short of Dread Commando at 7th, so I thought I'd look for a useful means of fluffing my Will saves a bit while I'm waiting for 9th without relying on magic items. Toys are great; but it only takes one screwy Xen'drik planar area, or a dang kobold flinging Antimagic Sphere or -- if you're playing under a REAL contender for Rat-Bastard DM -- Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and he dubs thee "Powned". I want to avoid that. I rather like my name.... Another item to look at are all the new ranger spells in the spell compendium. There are quite a few useful 1st level spells in there. Ah...so many books, so little cash. But I know whose library to hit. Thanks for the tip; I'll do that.
githmorien 05-23-07, 11:27 PM	Are you planning to be an Archer or a Meleeist? Archer, definitely. However, a wise archer knows the importance of having a Plan B, so I am trying to keep an eye to that as well. -War Domain would cough up Weapon Focus. - An Elvencraft longbow can be used as a quarterstaff in a pinch; a shortbow can be used as a club. And there's no penalty for switching between uses. - Druid probably has some answers for this, but I gotta find out what they are. - Not being there to get swung on in the first place always works. You mentioned Elusive Target; I was also looking at Able Sniper and a couple tactical feats. The Listen and Spot skills will be given their propers as well. After all, an ounce of prevention....
KShaver 05-24-07, 07:55 AM	This may be a kinda dense question, but with all that advancing and carrying on, does that mean I'll need to keep a character sheet for Mr. Hound, too? Yes.
Timlagor 05-24-07, 09:44 AM	The Archer really gets no significant benefit from any of the Dodge Tree so you might want to rethink your PrCs if you're planning to be an Archer. Did you look at the Ranger-Scout hybrid (with no PrCs at all)?
Diablo05 05-24-07, 02:57 PM	Archer, definitely. However, a wise archer - Druid probably has some answers for this, but I gotta find out what they are. Flame Blade is a usefull spell for a Druid thats forced into melee. Not to mention, the trusty animal companion and wild shape if your high enough lvl.
Shadowed Intent 05-24-07, 06:23 PM	Archer, definitely. However, a wise archer knows the importance of having a Plan B, so I am trying to keep an eye to that as well. First level ranger spell arrowmind (one of the spells Timlagor alluded to in the Spell Compendium) is quite useful for an archer. It allows you to make Attacks of Opportunity with your bow, at the same time, you do not provoke Attacks of Opportunity when using your bow. (Not only is it in Spell Compendium, it is also in Complete Adventurer). It is a swift spell, so you can cast it, and still point blank rapid shot an unhappy victim.
githmorien 05-24-07, 10:23 PM	Yes. Hoboy. So this would be a good time to ask exactly how the whole HD thing works with advanceable animals. As a matter of fact, what the heck is a "hit die"? Nobody has ever been able to give me a meaningful definition of that term!
githmorien 05-24-07, 10:28 PM	First level ranger spell arrowmind (one of the spells Timlagor alluded to in the Spell Compendium) is quite useful for an archer. It allows you to make Attacks of Opportunity with your bow, at the same time, you do not provoke Attacks of Opportunity when using your bow. (Not only is it in Spell Compendium, it is also in Complete Adventurer). It is a swift spell, so you can cast it, and still point blank rapid shot an unhappy victim. Okay, now THAT'S just cool!! :D And I actually have CAd, so that makes me even happier!
lseelba 05-24-07, 10:37 PM	Hoboy. So this would be a good time to ask exactly how the whole HD thing works with advanceable animals. As a matter of fact, what the heck is a "hit die"? Nobody has ever been able to give me a meaningful definition of that term! I'll try...it's short for hit point die. Makes more sense that way. :D As far as advancing animals, its found in the Monster Manual and also the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm Though advancing Animal Companions follows different rules found in the PHB and the SRD (scroll down): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#animalCompanion
githmorien 05-24-07, 10:53 PM	Flame Blade is a useful spell for a Druid thats forced into melee. Not to mention, the trusty animal companion and wild shape if your high enough lvl. The first time I played a Druid, I used that spell like it was going out of style! I'm going to pass on the Druid levels this time around; I'm just not feeling the one-with-creation vibe for this particular character. Valenar help things become extinct; I don't think they're much for helping things grow! I'm a little leery of using my companion as an out-and-out combatant, especially as we start creeping into the higher levels: I don't want my hound to become a sacrificial lamb. What might I do to help protect him? Where barding is concerned, can it be made of special materials (leafweave, mithril, thistledown -- whatever) like humanoid armor can?
githmorien 05-24-07, 11:16 PM	The Archer really gets no significant benefit from any of the Dodge Tree so you might want to rethink your PrCs if you're planning to be an Archer. Really? Hmmm....yeah....I do suppose you've got a point there. Crap. But this was precisely why I didn't wait until right before Indy! :ayyyy!: Eliminating the need for the Dodge Tree would go a ways towards solving my Where-Am-I-Gonna-Fit-This?!? problem with Point Blank Shot, Shadowed Stalker, Woodland Archer, and Plunging Shot. Hokay, let me look Scout back up; the memory's a little fuzzy.
KShaver 05-25-07, 09:11 AM	Hoboy. So this would be a good time to ask exactly how the whole HD thing works with advanceable animals. As a matter of fact, what the heck is a "hit die"? Nobody has ever been able to give me a meaningful definition of that term! Links were already provided, but I can still give a quick description of what a hit die is. A hit die is a level that gives you hit points, the fact that you roll a certain die for hit points at every level is what the term is referencing. For players these are class levels, for your pet these are monster levels The back of the MM tell s you what each creature type gets for its hit dice. In the case of the cooshee you use the fairly advantageous magical beast hit dice. These have d10s for hit points (use average of 5.5+con mod per level), full BAB (like a fighter), and good reflex and fort saves (like a ranger). Skills are probably going to be terrible, I imagine due to its low int it will probably get 1 skill point per level, and class skills are any skills it is listed as having on its monster entry. Also note that he will gain 1 feat for every 3 hit dice just like a player, but he will not get an attribute raise every 4 hit dice (thats part of class levels, not racial hit dice), though he will get the more advantageous natural armor, strength, and dex on the druid animal companion chart. Of course this could all be moot, you need an effective druid level of 3 in order to add the first 2 bonus hit dice to you pet. If you don't have at least 6 ranger levels, or the natural bond feat, or another class adding to your pet level then you'll still be using the base creature. With the right combination you could even be adding 4 hit dice to him, but that would require an effective druid level of 6 which would take the natural bond feat and 6 ranger levels, or natural bond and 4 ranger and 1 or more druid levels, or 4 rangor the the beastmaster PrC which has its own additional feat requirement.
Timlagor 05-25-07, 10:11 AM	Remember for the Scout-Ranger guy you really need the following: - Greater Manyshot (Psionics book) - Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel) And you want: - Improved Skirmish (CSc) ...of is one of them in the PHB2?
Soltares 05-25-07, 02:37 PM	Also note that he will gain 1 feat for every 3 hit dice just like a player, but he will not get an attribute raise every 4 hit dice (thats part of class levels, not racial hit dice), though he will get the more advantageous natural armor, strength, and dex on the druid animal companion chart. I bolded part of this. According to MM p. 290, 'Whenever a monster reaches a number of HD divisible by four, it improves one ability score by 1 point.' It repeats this on p 291 with an example of a Minotaur Barbarian 2 gaining an additional ability point when it 'becomes a creature of 8 Hit Dice.' So, ability scores do in fact increase with Hit Dice, not just class levels.
Timlagor 05-25-07, 07:41 PM	I bolded part of this. According to MM p. 290, 'Whenever a monster reaches a number of HD divisible by four, it improves one ability score by 1 point.' It repeats this on p 291 with an example of a Minotaur Barbarian 2 gaining an additional ability point when it 'becomes a creature of 8 Hit Dice.' So, ability scores do in fact increase with Hit Dice, not just class levels. True if they are monster HD. For advancing mounts and animal companions you aren't gaining Monster HD but Bonus HD so you get only what it says you get in the relevant class description.
githmorien 05-26-07, 11:10 AM	Links were already provided, but I can still give a quick description of what a hit die is. A hit die is a level that gives you hit points, the fact that you roll a certain die for hit points at every level is what the term is referencing. For players these are class levels, for your pet these are monster levels Oh! FINALLY!! And the funny thing is, your two-sentence explanation makes waaaaay more sense than the "official" one does. They need to switch to yours! The back of the MM tell s you what each creature type gets for its hit dice. In the case of the cooshee you use the fairly advantageous magical beast hit dice. These have d10s for hit points (use average of 5.5 + con mod per level), full BAB (like a fighter), and good reflex and fort saves (like a ranger). Skills are probably going to be terrible, I imagine due to its low int it will probably get 1 skill point per level, and class skills are any skills it is listed as having on its monster entry. Also note that he will gain 1 feat for every 3 hit dice just like a player, but he will not get an attribute raise every 4 hit dice (thats part of class levels, not racial hit dice), though he will get the more advantageous natural armor, strength, and dex on the druid animal companion chart. Whew! Fluffy's got a lot going on there! I will want to go through assembling his sheet once I get done with Corria's to make sure I don't miss anything. Of course this could all be moot, you need an effective druid level of 3 in order to add the first 2 bonus hit dice to you pet. If you don't have at least 6 ranger levels, or the natural bond feat, or another class adding to your pet level then you'll still be using the base creature. Not moot at all: I'll be sticking with Ranger for a good minute, so I'll have the necessary 6 levels for the first bonus dice. Just to check: at odd levels, I round down to get my druid level, so a 7th level ranger would be a 3rd level druid, yes?
githmorien 05-26-07, 11:52 AM	Remember for the Scout-Ranger guy you really need the following: - Greater Manyshot (Psionics book) - Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel) And you want: - Improved Skirmish (CSc) ...of is one of them in the PHB2? After much deliberation, I'm gonna pass on Scout and go Ranger/Cleric. It's not yummy Revenant cheese, and it doesn't do a blessed thing for skills, BAB or pet levels; but that +2 to Will and Fortitude at first level makes a huge difference (oooh...I just might live long enough to use my BAB now!), and that in itself is just too good to pass up. Valenar clerics get access to the War, Destruction, and Protection domains; I choose War and Protection. Destruction's a blast [insert rimshot here] at higher levels, but its granted power only affects my melee attacks -- and I'll be trying to make as few of those as humanly possible! Feat-wise, I'm looking at Point-Blank Shot -- which opens up Defensive Archery, Plunging Shot, Woodland Archer, and Shadow Stalker; and Able Sniper. I'm definitely taking PBS as one of the two feats I get between 1st and 7th, but I'm not sure which other one to take. Feats are always such a pain: so many great options, so very few slots. Which brings us to the good ol' Expansion list. First of all, on the actual expansion sheet, why are the squares at first, fifth, tenth, and fifteenth greyed out? Secondly, this is my current wish list; which items need to go on my Expansion list, and which -- if any -- can I just take or buy: - Suit of elven chain - +2 Amulet of Health - Pearl of Power - Swiftwing Arrows - Dragonsbreath Arrows - Elvencraft Bow - Able Sniper feat - Defensive Archery Feat - Forestwarden Shroud - Woodland Archer feat - Point Blank Shot feat - Shadow Striker feat - Plunging Shot feat
Herrbard 05-26-07, 01:56 PM	Which brings us to the good ol' Expansion list. First of all, on the actual expansion sheet, why are the squares at first, fifth, tenth, and fifteenth greyed out? This is a hold-over from the Mark of Heroes campaign. In that one, you could only take Prestige classes every five levels, so that is the reason for the gray box, to remind you. The first level had no expansion slot, so that one was blacked out. Just ignore them, they are not relevant anymore.
Shadowed Intent 05-26-07, 05:55 PM	I'm definitely taking PBS as one of the two feats I get between 1st and 7th, but I'm not sure which other one to take. Feats are always such a pain: so many great options, so very few slots. Don't forget precise shot to avoid that pesky -4 penalty for shooting into melee.
githmorien 05-26-07, 09:27 PM	This is a hold-over from the Mark of Heroes campaign. In that one, you could only take Prestige classes every five levels, so that is the reason for the gray box, to remind you. The first level had no expansion slot, so that one was blacked out. Just ignore them, they are not relevant anymore. Er, I'm gonna need us to have some Expansion Sheets that actually belong to this campaign.... :P "Will Secretary For Smooshy-Brain-In-Box"
githmorien 05-26-07, 09:37 PM	Don't forget precise shot to avoid that pesky -4 penalty for shooting into melee. Eeee...thank you for pointing that out. You probably just saved everyone that happens to play with me! Wonder why they give Rangers who take the archery style Manyshot instead of Precise Shot. If you think about it, that's dangerous, man!
KShaver 05-27-07, 10:40 AM	I bolded part of this. According to MM p. 290, 'Whenever a monster reaches a number of HD divisible by four, it improves one ability score by 1 point.' It repeats this on p 291 with an example of a Minotaur Barbarian 2 gaining an additional ability point when it 'becomes a creature of 8 Hit Dice.' So, ability scores do in fact increase with Hit Dice, not just class levels. My bad, the two circumstances I normally am adding racial hit dice to creatures do not include the bonus attribute points, these occasions are druid/paladin pets and playing a creature below the creatures normal racial HD+LA (Like the centaur levels in Races of the Wild). If you are advancing a normal creature, through class levels or racial HD, then it does get those boosts.
KShaver 05-27-07, 11:05 AM	Oh! FINALLY!! Not moot at all: I'll be sticking with Ranger for a good minute, so I'll have the necessary 6 levels for the first bonus dice. Just to check: at odd levels, I round down to get my druid level, so a 7th level ranger would be a 3rd level druid, yes? That is correct. As far as feats my suggestion would be: 1. Point Blank Shot 3. Precise Shot 6. Woodland Archer - Suit of elven chain - +2 Amulet of Health - Pearl of Power - Swiftwing Arrows - Dragonsbreath Arrows - Elvencraft Bow - Able Sniper feat - Defensive Archery Feat - Forestwarden Shroud - Woodland Archer feat - Point Blank Shot feat - Shadow Striker feat - Plunging Shot feat As to expansion slots, the bold items do not require slots. Adding the items cost 1 slot each and the feats two each, but since you only really have 1 feat to spare you have a few free for items. Something like: 1. Racial Substitution - Elven Ranger 2. Racial Substitution - Elven Ranger 3. Item - Dragonsbreath Arrows 4. Item - Elvencraft Bow 5. Item - Forestwarden Shroud 6. Feat - Woodland Archery 7. Feat - Woodland Archery PrCs take up 3 slots each, so you'll lose a few if you need access to one. Remember that you can overspend slots as long as you have at least one free, then catch up later. So if 4 and 5 were woodland archery, then 6, 7, and 8 could be a PrC letting you get into the PrC at 7th, but you wouldn't have another free slot until 9th level. The alternative is if you have campaign cards that might give you access to some of the things you want. A creation or expansion card can open up all sorts of things without taking up your expansion slots. The downside is that they take card stack space instead and do not provide the action points that general cards do, giving you fewer points to spend during the game. Remember a creation card has to be used as your first card and registered with the character, and most creation cards take your fist 3 card stack slots (unless otherwise noted, same as expansion taking only 1 unless otherwise noted).
githmorien 05-27-07, 05:00 PM	As far as feats my suggestion would be: 1. Point Blank Shot 3. Precise Shot 6. Woodland Archer Looks good. But let me tell you about this thing I did first. When I initially built this character, I took Blind-Fight as my first feat. I was the only person I played with all Con that thought to do so, and it saved my groups so many times, it wasn't funny. Given that -- and the fact that I *loathe* being snuck-up on -- I'm a feelin' kinda reluctant to let that feat go. But now that I've decided to run up the archery side, here's the money question: can I use Blind-Fight with a ranged weapon, or is it only good with swords, maces and such? And while we're at it: if you have the Weapon Proficiency feat with a double weapon, does it affect the TWF penalties at all? The War Domain gives me both Proficiency with the Double Scimitar (which is kinda silly, since only Valenar elves can be clerics of the Spirits of the Past, and all Valenar automatically get the scimitar and double scimitar as racial proficiencies) and Weapon Focus with it. Should I bother with taking TWF? Ideally, I'd like to stay out of melee as much as possible; but I don't cherish the idea of having a "backup" weapon I can only halfway use, either. As to expansion slots, the bold items do not require slots. That's a relief! So I can just have 'em whenever I can afford 'em? What about the actual items (weapons, etc) that do go on my Expansion List: do I need to cough up gp for them, too, or are they more like gifts from the game for being a good little elf and not dying before I hit Level "X"? The alternative is if you have campaign cards that might give you access to some of the things you want. A creation or expansion card can open up all sorts of things without taking up your expansion slots. LOL -- I'm a lot short on Campaign Cards, so I'll be doing things the good 'ol fashioned way for some time to come! Hakuna matata. :)
Herrbard 05-27-07, 08:33 PM	But now that I've decided to run up the archery side, here's the money question: can I use Blind-Fight with a ranged weapon, or is it only good with swords, maces and such? From the SRD: Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit. So that "in melee" would rule out ranged weapons. That's a relief! So I can just have 'em whenever I can afford 'em? What about the actual items (weapons, etc) that do go on my Expansion List: do I need to cough up gp for them, too, or are they more like gifts from the game for being a good little elf and not dying before I hit Level "X"? Sorry, you still have to pay for them the old fashioned way. ;)
githmorien 05-31-07, 09:23 PM	From the SRD: Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit. So that "in melee" would rule out ranged weapons. And that in turn rules out this feat! Ah, riiiight...it's Iron Kingdoms that has the Blind-Fight tree that includes ranged attacks....:doh: I got so used to the kitchen-sink approach to D&D that I've come to think of it as "normal"; I don't even wanna get into how many times I had to start over as I doled out my skill points because I instantly started doing Buy the Numbers formulas to figure their costs. :rolleye2: Sorry, you still have to pay for them the old fashioned way. ;) Crizap. So that means that I can't have a given object on my List until I both reach whatever slot-level it's at AND can afford to buy it? So then the items on my list DO need to go on there in a particular order. Is that right?
Shadowed Intent 05-31-07, 11:03 PM	So that means that I can't have a given object on my List until I both reach whatever slot-level it's at AND can afford to buy it? So then the items on my list DO need to go on there in a particular order. Is that right? Yes, But wait, there is more . . . Don't forget: The campaign cost of a single item can not exceed the level based GP limit on the Progression sheet. The campaign cost of consumables is five the times listed price. The campaign cost does not include any discount you may have. Even though you can put an item on your expansion list at any level you want. You may have to wait to get said item.
quizboy 06-01-07, 07:18 PM	Eeee...thank you for pointing that out. You probably just saved everyone that happens to play with me! Wonder why they give Rangers who take the archery style Manyshot instead of Precise Shot. If you think about it, that's dangerous, man! Also check out Coordinated Shot from Heroes of Battle (I think). It allows you to fire into melee without the -4 that cover from your allies might normally apply. It's nice... BTW, in the old Mark of Heroes game, I saw an archer take a level of sorcerer to get access to the ArrowMind spell several times/day. It worked very well for him. I know that you were thinking of going Ranger for a while, so you'll get the spell at some level, but I wanted to point it out for others that might not be doing Ranger. --Steven
githmorien 06-02-07, 06:40 PM	Don't forget: The campaign cost of a single item can not exceed the level based GP limit on the Progression sheet. The campaign cost of consumables is five the times listed price. The campaign cost does not include any discount you may have. Even though you can put an item on your expansion list at any level you want. You may have to wait to get said item. Ahhh, I think I get it now. Discounts? I don't believe I have any coming; on the other hand, I wasn't aware they existed in this campaign, either. Who might get them, and -- more importantly -- why? Also, I forget: are arrows considered consumables?
githmorien 06-02-07, 06:47 PM	Also check out Coordinated Shot from Heroes of Battle (I think). It allows you to fire into melee without the -4 that cover from your allies might normally apply. It's nice... BTW, in the old Mark of Heroes game, I saw an archer take a level of sorcerer to get access to the ArrowMind spell several times/day. It worked very well for him. I know that you were thinking of going Ranger for a while, so you'll get the spell at some level, but I wanted to point it out for others that might not be doing Ranger. --Steven Gotta love those absences-of-penalties, especially when they give you a reduced chance of skewering your meat shie--er, temmates. :angelhide A level or two of sorcerer or wizard actually had been the original idea; but with a 9 Charisma and a 10 Intelligence, that wasn't happenin'. Thank heaven for Wisdom-based spellcasting!
Shadowed Intent 06-02-07, 08:43 PM	Ahhh, I think I get it now. Discounts? I don't believe I have any coming; on the other hand, I wasn't aware they existed in this campaign, either. Who might get them, and -- more importantly -- why? Also, I forget: are arrows considered consumables? Yes arrows are consumables, sometimes story objects will give you a discount.
Timlagor 06-02-07, 10:20 PM	..and you can't accidentally hit someone with an arrow unless they are grappling.
githmorien 06-02-07, 11:14 PM	Yes arrows are consumables, sometimes story objects will give you a discount. Oh, right -- speaking of story objects: which is "permanent", story objects or event treasure? I know one gets converted to EV (somehow) after a given event...and I'm still kinda fuzzy on what all happens to the other. And what exactly is a "circumstance bonus"?
Herrbard 06-03-07, 07:41 AM	Oh, right -- speaking of story objects: which is "permanent", story objects or event treasure? I know one gets converted to EV (somehow) after a given event...and I'm still kinda fuzzy on what all happens to the other. And what exactly is a "circumstance bonus"? Story objects are permanent, i.e. they carry over from event to event. Event treasure is things that you find during the mod that you are allowed to use if you play in another mod at the same "event" (that particular convention, game day, etc.). Event treasure just disappears when the event is over; it is not tracked and does not add to your EV.
pedr 06-03-07, 07:44 AM	Story objects are permanent. They do exactly what they say on in their text, until and unless another story object you have negates them. Event treasure is only of any use if you are playing more than one Xen'drik module at the same convention or gameday. If you are only playing one module you can ignore it - it has no use to you whatsoever. If you are playing a second module, write down what the DM tells you is Event Treasure in your AJ. In the second module you have that item as well as everything you equipped your character with from your EV. Repeat for every subsequent module you play at the same convention/gameday. Make sense? A 'circumstance bonus' is defined in the D&D rules. See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier It is a modifier to a die roll (can be positive or negative) which stacks with every other modifier except a circumstance modifier from the same circumstance.
lseelba 06-03-07, 01:22 PM	Event treasure is only of any use if you are playing more than one Xen'drik module at the same convention or gameday. If you are only playing one module you can ignore it - it has no use to you whatsoever. If you are playing a second module, write down what the DM tells you is Event Treasure in your AJ. In the second module you have that item as well as everything you equipped your character with from your EV. Repeat for every subsequent module you play at the same convention/gameday. Make sense? I was under the impression that event treasure could be used in the mod you are currently playing. So if you got an Amulet of Natural armor, you could put it on and use it in the fight against the BBEG. It would go away at the end of the mod unless you are at a convention or game day though.
pedr 06-03-07, 01:26 PM	Right... but then, you can use any stuff you find during the module. The event treasure thing is to allow some of the rewards of a module to carry through to the next one at a single event, because you won't be able to get the full rewards until the game's reported.
githmorien 06-05-07, 07:04 AM	Right... but then, you can use any stuff you find during the module. The event treasure thing is to allow some of the rewards of a module to carry through to the next one at a single event, because you won't be able to get the full rewards until the game's reported. I'm glad I asked that question. I did find some nifty Stuff-I-Won't-Be-Keeping [;)], but the story items were better; delighted to know that I get to hang on to 'em. Overview of this EV business, if you please: why do we need to know it; what goes into it; what gets converted; how does it relate to Cash on Hand; and how often do I need to tally it? On a totally different note, now that I've just about got Corria squared away, I'm about ready to start working on Mr. HoundDawg. I'm not at all adept with "monster" mechanics, so forgive me if this gets too dense. I'ma start with something real basic: the stat block. I hate to ask this, but do monsters use the same ability modifiers as humanoids do? Secondly, do the numbers in the stat block translate directly to the character sheet, or do I need to work the same bits of math for my companion as I did for my charater?
pedr 06-05-07, 07:21 AM	I'll leave someone else to talk about animal companions. I've never played a druid so might get things wrong! On EV: EV is how much money you have to spend to equip your character. You do this before you arrive at the gameday/convention you're playing at. Your equipment is fixed for the whole of that event, regardless of how many modules you play, and even if you use or lose something in one module it doesn't affect your equipment list for the next one. I'll say that in another way as it's really counter-intuitive: in the second module you use exactly the same equipment list you had for the first one, no matter what happened to your equipment in the first module. The trade off is that you don't get to use things you find in the first module in the second module unless they're listed as 'Event Treasure'. When equipping your character, you add the EV which is in the online character tracker (or the default amount for the level bump if you haven't played the character yet) to the maxiumum starting gold for your first class (as listed in the Campaign Standards) (and, if you're playing a BWC character, 50gp per level of your character). You then equip your character using the rules in the CS (basically, consumable items cost 5x the base cost, you can't buy any one item which costs more than your 'GP Limit' and non-PH/DMG/ECS items need to be unlocked by campaign card or expansion slot). As for how EV is calculated, the system does that based on performance in previous modules. It's an abstraction of you selling the things you find in previous modules. Alternatively you can look at it as the 'budget' which your Faction made available to you before the mission. It is completely separate from CoH which you calculate according to the formula in the CS, although you can leave some of your EV unspent and keep it as CoH (useful if you're going to be casting expensive spells, for instance). Does that make sense? I'm not capable of giving concise explanations of the way XE works, I'm afraid! Any more questions, just ask!
lseelba 06-05-07, 01:54 PM	(snip) On a totally different note, now that I've just about got Corria squared away, I'm about ready to start working on Mr. HoundDawg. I'm not at all adept with "monster" mechanics, so forgive me if this gets too dense. I'ma start with something real basic: the stat block. I hate to ask this, but do monsters use the same ability modifiers as humanoids do? Secondly, do the numbers in the stat block translate directly to the character sheet, or do I need to work the same bits of math for my companion as I did for my charater? I don't know what type of animal your animal companion is (wolf? riding dog?) but in Xen'drik the types of animal companions you get is closely tied to your region of origin. Have you picked your region of origin yet? Also if you pick Talenta you could get a dinosaur animal companion :)
githmorien 06-05-07, 09:43 PM	I don't know what type of animal your animal companion is (wolf? riding dog?) but in Xen'drik the types of animal companions you get is closely tied to your region of origin. Have you picked your region of origin yet? Butuvcourrrse, mon frere: the Valenar elf ranger is from Valenar. ;) But the racial sub levels I took at 1 let me boss up and get a nice green elven hound as my companion. Wonder why nobody's ever made cooshee minis; these guys have been around since at least 2nd, and they're very cool. Also if you pick Talenta you could get a dinosaur animal companion :) Talenta? Ohhhh, you mean that big grassy field we use for Halfling Hockey (the official pastime of off-duty Valenar hordes)..... :cheer:
Timlagor 06-06-07, 01:53 AM	On a totally different note, now that I've just about got Corria squared away, I'm about ready to start working on Mr. HoundDawg. I'm not at all adept with "monster" mechanics, so forgive me if this gets too dense. I'ma start with something real basic: the stat block. I hate to ask this, but do monsters use the same ability modifiers as humanoids do? Secondly, do the numbers in the stat block translate directly to the character sheet, or do I need to work the same bits of math for my companion as I did for my charater? I'm not really sure what you're asking here. There is a statblock for a Hound (which I presume you have). The is the base statblock that you use for a level 1 Druid Animal Companion. You then add the benefits laid out in the Animal Companion Sidebar. You do not add anything else. The Attributes work in the same way as for PCs but you don't do a Point Buy.
githmorien 06-07-07, 09:17 AM	I'm not really sure what you're asking here. There is a statblock for a Hound (which I presume you have). The is the base statblock that you use for a level 1 Druid Animal Companion. You then add the benefits laid out in the Animal Companion Sidebar. You do not add anything else. The Attributes work in the same way as for PCs but you don't do a Point Buy. Hold up -- before I get into my own gibberish <*grin*>, I think I need a section out of the Companion directions translated into English: Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. :blink: Say What?!?!
KShaver 06-07-07, 11:54 AM	Hold up -- before I get into my own gibberish <*grin*>, I think I need a section out of the Companion directions translated into English: Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. :blink: Say What?!?! Actually thats wrong for your animal companion. He is a magical beast so he uses different hit dice and base attack bonus. Since you'll be counting as a 3rd level druid you look at the chart and see that you add: +2 Natural Armor (Just raise his natural armor simple enough) +1 Strength and Dexterity (Raise each of these by one, and if he hits an even number his modifier goes up and take note of what is affected such as attack, grapple, damage, initiative, armor class, reflex save, et cetera) +2 Tricks (Over what he can normally learn, see the handle animal section) +2 Hit Dice (The complicated part, see below) Special Abilitites: Link, Share Spells, and Evasion The special abilties are described on their own in the section, from the SRD: Link (Ex): A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion. Share Spells (Ex): At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires. Additionally, the druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal). Evasion (Ex): If an animal companion is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw. Now on to the hit dice, the SRD says: Features: A magical beast has the following features. —10-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die This means when you add 2 hit dice you add: 2d10+2xCon mod hit points (use the average of 5.5 per d10, i.e. add 11 plus twice his con modifier in hit points.) 2 Base Attack Bonus (Raise his attack and grapple by 2 each) 2 Skill points (His int is low enough he only gets the minimum 1 per hit die, these are to be distributed to skills on his skill list) Saves are a bit more work, you have to figure out what his base saves are now and what the difference will be at his new level, then add from there. Since he is 2 hit dice and has good reflex and fort saves he should have base saves of 2 fort, 2 reflex, and 0 wil (just like a second level ranger). At level 4 (since he is now 2+2=4 hit dice) a character with good fort and reflex saves (i.e. a ranger) would have 3 fort, 3 reflex, and 1 wil. Since each save is 1 higher now then it was before, then raise each save value by 1 point.
Tabiani 06-07-07, 01:53 PM	That's a pretty good listing, just couple minor errors. Now on to the hit dice, the SRD says: Features: A magical beast has the following features. —10-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die This means when you add 2 hit dice you add: 2d10+2xCon mod hit points (use the average of 5.5 per d10, i.e. add 11 plus twice his con modifier in hit points.) 2 Base Attack Bonus (Raise his attack and grapple by 2 each) 2 Skill points (His int is low enough he only gets the minimum 1 per hit die, these are to be distributed to skills on his skill list) Except that as githmorien quoted from the SRD f0or an animal companon: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal... ...An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. So your animal companion gains the average 4.5 hp per level for a d8 or 9 hp plus twice the CON bonus per 2 levels. The base attack bonus is gained at the druid's level or 3 BAB per 4 Hit dice the animal companion has. The stat block for an animal companion is more the normal animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) than the magical beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#magicalBeastType).
KShaver 06-07-07, 02:13 PM	Except that as githmorien quoted from the SRD for an animal companon: So your animal companion gains the average 4.5 hp per level for a d8 or 9 hp plus twice the CON bonus per 2 levels. The base attack bonus is gained at the druid's level or 3 BAB per 4 Hit dice the animal companion has. All animal companions on the PHB/SRD chart are animals, so this would hold true for them. The animal companion that she is getting is one of the rare exceptions to that. It is not an animal and therefore does not gain animal hit dice. I'm sure there are addition notes on this somewhere, but they won't be in the PHB or SRD since those only allow animals as companions. I also forgot to note that for every 3rd hit dice the animal hits it will gain a feat. In this particular case he'll pass 3rd, so he gets one feat to pick for that level.
lseelba 06-07-07, 03:16 PM	Very minor point but every little bit helps: Xen'drik uses the following chart for hit points gained: d4-2 hp per die d6-4 hp per die d8-5 hp per die d10-6 hp per die d12-8 hp per die It's a little bit better than the averages posted above.
KShaver 06-07-07, 04:30 PM	Very minor point but every little bit helps: Xen'drik uses the following chart for hit points gained: d4-2 hp per die d6-4 hp per die d8-5 hp per die d10-6 hp per die d12-8 hp per die It's a little bit better than the averages posted above. I think that only applies to players, but I suppose its worth looking into.
githmorien 06-07-07, 11:31 PM	+2 Hit Dice (The complicated part, see below) And of course, that is the part that's got me all beat up here. Now on to the hit dice, the SRD says: Features: A magical beast has the following features. —10-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die This means when you add 2 hit dice you add: 2d10+2xCon mod hit points (use the average of 5.5 per d10, i.e. add 11 plus twice his con modifier in hit points.) Now there's the kicker: the elven hound "naturally" comes with 2 HD -- in fact, his stat block says "2d10+2". Does that mean he ends up with 4 HD and a 4 BAB?
lseelba 06-08-07, 03:06 AM	And of course, that is the part that's got me all beat up here. Now there's the kicker: the elven hound "naturally" comes with 2 HD -- in fact, his stat block says "2d10+2". Does that mean he ends up with 4 HD and a 4 BAB? Yes.
githmorien 06-08-07, 08:26 AM	Alright -- and even though KShaver did mention much of this earlier, I need to make sure I understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. So the hound now has 4 HD. That means I treat him as a 4th level character. I use the averages to calculate his new HP total (or, the HP table in the CS because this is a RPGA campaign). I use the Good Save/Bad Save chart in the PHB to get his saves. He gets one skill point per level because his Intelligence score is low. Since he's being created at 4th, he has four to distribute. He's currently at 4th level, so I get to pick a new Feat for him. ...am I good here so far?
KShaver 06-08-07, 01:19 PM	So the hound now has 4 HD. That means I treat him as a 4th level character. Correct. I use the averages to calculate his new HP total (or, the HP table in the CS because this is a RPGA campaign). Actually I just looked this one up in the standards (top left of pg 7 in the 2.0 XECS). Base hit points remain as they are in the animal entry, but when advanced XE animal companions specifically gain 1/2 the max value of the hit die +1, so a d10 = 6. Of course Con is still added to every hit die as well. So take his base hit points and add 2x(6+Con Mod). I use the Good Save/Bad Save chart in the PHB to get his saves. Correct. He gets one skill point per level because his Intelligence score is low. Since he's being created at 4th, he has four to distribute. You don't spend his first and second level skill points, those are already part of the base creature entry. His first and second level skill points actually add up to 5 skill points, he got x4 at 1st level and then one more skill point at 2nd (It takes some reverse engineering to figure out where he actually spent those points). Since those points are already spent the only points you need to worry about are the 2 that he gained going from 2nd to 4th. Don't worry about reverse engineering where his skill points are spent unless you are raising a skill that has synergies attached to it. Also note he can cross class his skill points, so he doesn't have to stick to his listed skill list, but then you only get 1/2 of what you spend. He's currently at 4th level, so I get to pick a new Feat for him. Right, he has a feat already from 1st level, but, since he is passing 3rd, he gains another one and you get to pick that feat for him.
lseelba 06-08-07, 11:59 PM	Also animals and magical creatures are only proficient in the skills that they have listed in their stat block. All other skills are cross class skills.
Timlagor 06-09-07, 05:12 PM	Aren't all Animal Companions MAgical Beasts these days?
KShaver 06-11-07, 07:33 AM	Aren't all Animal Companions MAgical Beasts these days? No, the creature type does not change when it becomes an animal companion. This was rewritten a little clearer in the main 3.5 FAQ.
Swiftbrook 06-17-07, 06:20 PM	Jumping in late to this conversation .... Actually thats wrong for your animal companion. He is a magical beast so he uses different hit dice and base attack bonus. I don't think this is correct. I haven't seen any rules that say that you can change an animal companions advanced stats to that of a magical beast. People are making logical assumptions, but these assumptions have no basis in rules. What would you do if you had a second level fighter and added two levels of Druid? I look at it the same way. You have a magical beast that uses the fighter progression and you add two levels (or 4, 6, 8, etc.) of druid to it for HP and BAB. How to improved saves is listed in the rules and you use those advancements. -Swiftbrook
KShaver 06-18-07, 09:22 AM	I don't think this is correct. I haven't seen any rules that say that you can change an animal companions advanced stats to that of a magical beast. People are making logical assumptions, but these assumptions have no basis in rules. Logic is the primary reason to do it. Having a displacer beast as an animal companion and then adding animal levels to it just doesn't make much sense. The problem is that aside from Eberron (and even in Eberron) it is exceedingly rare to see a magical beast as an animal companion. In fact the cooshee is the only one I can think of that is available outside of Eberron. Because of this rarity it just isn't very well covered in the PHB or SRD. Thus all existing material assumes your companion is indeed an animal. Rules wise there is one reason for doing it. The normal also for advancing creatures is to add the same type of existing hit dice. Again there is only one example that I know that breaks this trend, and the lycanthrope template has deliberate reasons for doing so. Other than that the MM does not allow a monster to include racial dice other than its own base type. You can't have a creature with two different base types, all other examples of this occuring cause all existing hit dice to switch to the new creature type. On top of this I believe that in the rare few circumstances that a magical beast is available that they are well balanced. At the base level the elven hound is nearly identical to a riding dog or a wolf, the other two most similar options available for a 4th level ranger. Compare this to the gnome ranger racial sub which allows them to get a larger or higher level pet. I figure the following logic makes it fair: Racial Substitution Level Ability = Racial Substitution Level Ability and Better Hit Die = More Hit Dice Even in the long run when the hound has lots of better hit dice, the gnome ranger animal companions will continue to always have more hit dice (and a larger con bonus).
githmorien 06-23-07, 11:36 PM	:dancin:"It's my thread and I can change if I want to, change if I want to, change if I want tooooo..." :dancin: I actually do have one remaining question about this elven hound bizness; but I'm waaaay too sleepy to remember exactly how it goes right now. So we'll skip to the subject du jour instead. Undermountain. Quick, fellas! Centaur PCs: in or out?
Timlagor 06-24-07, 02:28 PM	The Undermountain games aren't high enough level to make Centaurs worth it in any mechanical sense. I can't see any reason you couldn't play one if you really want to though... I'm probably going with Crusader myself.
githmorien 06-24-07, 07:45 PM	<grin> It's one of two things I've always wanted to play; and looks like this'll be my first, best, and only chance. So the lords of awesomeness and logic both bow out to shameless hedonism this day. :) Now, am I understanding the Races of the Wild rules correctly when I gather that: with a centaur, I can't take normal class levels (bard, barbarian, rogue, blah, blah, blah...) until I've made it through the entire monstrous humanoid progression; therefore, I couldn't make, say, a centaur sorcerer or something until seventh level? That sounds a bit odd to me; but if that's the case, I'll deal with it!
smerwin29 06-24-07, 08:53 PM	Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I don't think centaurs are playable in Undermountain. The character creation document says no races with racial hit dice, and a centaur has racial hit dice. Only races that normally only have 1 HD and advance by character classes can be played. At least that's how I read it.
githmorien 06-24-07, 11:58 PM	Yup. 'cept PCs don't advance by HD if they're using the monster classes (Savage Species & Races of the Wild) and, unless I've missed something, don't get the Racial HD, either. It also ignores level adjustment.
lseelba 06-25-07, 01:21 AM	Yup. 'cept PCs don't advance by HD if they're using the monster classes (Savage Species & Races of the Wild) and, unless I've missed something, don't get the Racial HD, either. It also ignores level adjustment. I just thumbed through RotW, and they still get the Racial HD. The HD they gain during the six levels of Centaur Monster Class are racial HD. Their BAB and saves advance just as monstrous humanoid's should. Check out page 98, Racial Traits, first sentence Sorry to burst your bubble, but if it makes you feel any better I played a centaur through those monster class levels and your AC and HP are pretty bad. Not having armor proficiency hurts.
githmorien 06-25-07, 06:48 AM	Hmmm. Ah well; much like rain, a little disappointment's a natural part of life -- which is why it always helps to have backup plans. And I did. ;) They're not nearly as visually interesting, but they'll give me what I need.
githmorien 06-27-07, 09:40 AM	Say -- can anyone tell me what the Star Elves out of Unapproachable East, look like, and how they differ from "standard" elves? I've decided to try my hand at playing an elven warlock. While I was researching the class this morning, I stumbled across a reference to that race. I've not heard of them before; now idle curiosity has kicked in.....