Artificer and EV [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artificer and EV [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
warderbrad
12-13-06, 10:51 AM I am confused by how the artificer's EV is handled with their craft reserve.

Where I am confused is what happens to the craft reserve when they level up. While it makes sense for you to only add the most recent value to your EV (in crafted items) it also doesn't make sense as the character gets high enough to make permanent items.

While adding the craft reserve to your EV (in crafted items only) makes sense also it does seem to make the consumables stronger (yet not as they replenish anyway)

Please if anyone can give me help with this it would be very appreciated.
Skerrit
12-13-06, 05:25 PM The intent is that, since you can retool your equipment for each event, that you get five times your current craft reserve (for your current artificer level). This is money that never goes away so yes, it is more powerful if you buy expedibles with it and less powerful if you buy permant items. Atificers already have the advantage of not needing to spend any xp to create items in XE, but you also get this money as an additional benefit.
warderbrad
12-21-06, 03:00 PM Can you give an example of what a Artificer's EV would be at 4th level (assuming the 4th level bump)
Skerrit
12-22-06, 01:34 PM I am away on vacation, I will try to answer this when I return from Texas.
Skerrit
12-29-06, 12:58 PM After the level bump, your 4th-level artificer would calculate his EV as follows:

The EV the database says you have
+ Starting Gold from your character class (200 gp)
+ Any gp bonuses from Story Objects (a few give bonus gold)
+ (If a Blackwheel PC) 50 gp X character level (50 x 5 = 250 gp)
+ craft reserve x 5 (80 x 5 = 400 gp)
+ Cash on Hand (Your level x 2 gp + Your Charisma modifier in gp + Your total ranks in Craft and Profession skills x 10 gp + The number of Item Creation feats you have x 10 gp)

= Total EV
Frobi-Wan Kenobi
12-29-06, 05:37 PM I thought that EV and craft reserve were seperate due to the nature of the craft reserve only being used on items that the artificer could themselves craft.

For example this is an artificer with the extraordiary artisan feat taken at 1st level, each craft reserve is figuered individually by level based on the ICFs that the artificer had at that level.

1st level - 100 GP
50 Scroll of True Strike
50 Scroll of Endure Eements

2nd level - 200 GP
50 Scroll of Bless
50 Scroll of Faerie Fire
100 Potion of Cure Light Wounds

3rd level - 300 GP
100 Feather Fall Talisman (need unlock)
25 Scroll of Read Magic
25 Scroll of Detect Magic
50 Scroll of Expeditious Retreat
100 Potion of Cure Light Wounds

. . . and so on.

If players throw in their Craft Reserve with their EV as you said artificers will overpower the game balance. At 7th level that's an extra 4,000 plus gold that could be spent on items they may or may be able to craft.

And, just so I'm clear, the cost of a 1st level scroll in XenEx is 125 GP. With Scribe Scroll they cost 75 and with Extraordinary Artisan they're only 50 (as in my above example), right? Now, since these are considered limited items which value is used to see if you are allowed to buy/craft the item in question? The price the artificer actually pays? Or the campaign price? Or the price listed in the DMG?
zstinger
12-29-06, 09:08 PM I thought that EV and craft reserve were seperate due to the nature of the craft reserve only being used on items that the artificer could themselves craft.......If players throw in their Craft Reserve with their EV as you said artificers will overpower the game balance. At 7th level that's an extra 4,000 plus gold that could be spent on items they may or may be able to craft.

I'd think that there will have to be some form of self-policing to make sure one spends the craft reserve only on things he/she can craft. Craft reserve is one big feature of an artificer and because I play one, I'd hate to see it deviate from what it is now.
Skerrit
12-30-06, 01:23 AM You are correct, the craft reserve portion of the EV must be spent on items the artificer could craft (but then again, the rest of the artificer's EV could also be spent upon things they could craft).
Frobi-Wan Kenobi
12-31-06, 02:17 AM Also, just for clarification, an artificer losses any craft reserve for levels lower than there current one right? If that is the case than I'd suggest that the retain essense SQ add a bit bigger bonus to the campaign value of the craft reserve.
Skerrit
01-01-07, 01:36 PM Since you recalculate your EV every convention, you are correct. The craft reserve you have is whatever it is for that level, you get no bonus for previous levels.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi
01-02-07, 11:44 PM Since you recalculate your EV every convention, you are correct. The craft reserve you have is whatever it is for that level, you get no bonus for previous levels.

I'm just going to say one last thing prior to no longer commenting on the Artificer subject.

By your definition above, a 10th level fighter should have 6 hit points plus their Con modifier (well, and any toughness feats) since they receive no bonus for previous levels. Building higher bonuses to character abilities is the core mechanic of the d20 system of character advancement.

The Craft Reserve represents the Artificer's inate understanding of creation of magical items and thus it takes less of a toll on the Artificer XP wise when crafting magical items.

Since Xen'drik Expeditions doesn't use the standard Item Creation Rules set the mechanic has been converted to gold pieces to spend on items that the Artificer can craft at that level. Why would an Artificer lose the items that he crafted with their Craft Reserve at first level when they level to second? Under the standard set of rules where consumable items are gone forever when used this situation takes care of itself. However, with the D&D Campaign model in place the Scrolls of Expeditious Retreat and Enlarge Person that I spent my Artificer's entire Craft Reserve on at first level still are a part of them since the scrolls reset once the adventure is complete. Does this require a player of an Artificer to track a lot details than the average PC, it sure does. But this represents that so much of the Artificer classes "power" comes from abilities that don't function at the gaming table.

I started Mark of Heroes with my Artificer since I fell in love with the class. At the beginning Artificers were a dime a dozen, at one table I was one of four. Then after the 4th level bump the numbers started dropping. Now after 20+ games and both playing & judging at major cons plus the more local stuff I can say I have encountered exactly 1 other Artificer in Mark of Heroes (I judged at their table at WF 2006). I believe that this is due to the complexity of the class itself and the amount of time needed away from the table to maintain their collection of magic items. Now I have seen two Artificer's starting up in XenEx (one being a Drow) and hope they continue.

In summation - to simply lump an Artificer's Craft Reserve into their Equipment Value is a disservice to the Artificer class. While it does require more tracking on the player's part it would cheapen the class far too much.

As I said, this the last comment I'll make on the subject and will adhere to any rules decision that the factionmasters dictate (especially since I don't even have an Artificer PC in XenEx to break these rules with).

Rob
zstinger
01-03-07, 09:46 AM Well said, Frobi-Wan Kenobi. I agree absolutely with what you have said, except the part about MoH (cuz I've never played MoH before).

I responded to your initial post not realising that the artificer loses the craft reserves he previously received at lower levels and thinking that you were painting the artificer craft reserve ability as being overpowered.

XE is my first D&D campaigns experience and since it is never specified to that extent in XECS 1.1 (correct me if I am wrong). I have been playing my past games with the assumption that I get to "keep" (loosely speaking, in the form of items or EV) my craft reserve beyond my current level as long as I spend it, in alignment with the ECS description of the class ability. I knew I was wrong after reading Skerrit's clarification.

Apart from the points raised in the above post, this game mechanic also totally cheapens the 300gp bonus to craft reserve at lvl 5 in exchange for a full feat that is retain essence. The way I see it now is that the artificer will get 800gp craft reserve at lvl 5 and subsequently lose that and get just 750gp craft reserve at lvl 6.

I hope factionmasters can take another look at the artificer's craft reserve. Thanks.
Skerrit
01-03-07, 11:21 AM No, you always gain the 300 gp bonus from Retain Essence once you gain that class ability.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
warderbrad 12-13-06, 10:51 AM	I am confused by how the artificer's EV is handled with their craft reserve. Where I am confused is what happens to the craft reserve when they level up. While it makes sense for you to only add the most recent value to your EV (in crafted items) it also doesn't make sense as the character gets high enough to make permanent items. While adding the craft reserve to your EV (in crafted items only) makes sense also it does seem to make the consumables stronger (yet not as they replenish anyway) Please if anyone can give me help with this it would be very appreciated.
Skerrit 12-13-06, 05:25 PM	The intent is that, since you can retool your equipment for each event, that you get five times your current craft reserve (for your current artificer level). This is money that never goes away so yes, it is more powerful if you buy expedibles with it and less powerful if you buy permant items. Atificers already have the advantage of not needing to spend any xp to create items in XE, but you also get this money as an additional benefit.
warderbrad 12-21-06, 03:00 PM	Can you give an example of what a Artificer's EV would be at 4th level (assuming the 4th level bump)
Skerrit 12-22-06, 01:34 PM	I am away on vacation, I will try to answer this when I return from Texas.
Skerrit 12-29-06, 12:58 PM	After the level bump, your 4th-level artificer would calculate his EV as follows: The EV the database says you have + Starting Gold from your character class (200 gp) + Any gp bonuses from Story Objects (a few give bonus gold) + (If a Blackwheel PC) 50 gp X character level (50 x 5 = 250 gp) + craft reserve x 5 (80 x 5 = 400 gp) + Cash on Hand (Your level x 2 gp + Your Charisma modifier in gp + Your total ranks in Craft and Profession skills x 10 gp + The number of Item Creation feats you have x 10 gp) = Total EV
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 12-29-06, 05:37 PM	I thought that EV and craft reserve were seperate due to the nature of the craft reserve only being used on items that the artificer could themselves craft. For example this is an artificer with the extraordiary artisan feat taken at 1st level, each craft reserve is figuered individually by level based on the ICFs that the artificer had at that level. 1st level - 100 GP 50 Scroll of True Strike 50 Scroll of Endure Eements 2nd level - 200 GP 50 Scroll of Bless 50 Scroll of Faerie Fire 100 Potion of Cure Light Wounds 3rd level - 300 GP 100 Feather Fall Talisman (need unlock) 25 Scroll of Read Magic 25 Scroll of Detect Magic 50 Scroll of Expeditious Retreat 100 Potion of Cure Light Wounds . . . and so on. If players throw in their Craft Reserve with their EV as you said artificers will overpower the game balance. At 7th level that's an extra 4,000 plus gold that could be spent on items they may or may be able to craft. And, just so I'm clear, the cost of a 1st level scroll in XenEx is 125 GP. With Scribe Scroll they cost 75 and with Extraordinary Artisan they're only 50 (as in my above example), right? Now, since these are considered limited items which value is used to see if you are allowed to buy/craft the item in question? The price the artificer actually pays? Or the campaign price? Or the price listed in the DMG?
zstinger 12-29-06, 09:08 PM	I thought that EV and craft reserve were seperate due to the nature of the craft reserve only being used on items that the artificer could themselves craft.......If players throw in their Craft Reserve with their EV as you said artificers will overpower the game balance. At 7th level that's an extra 4,000 plus gold that could be spent on items they may or may be able to craft. I'd think that there will have to be some form of self-policing to make sure one spends the craft reserve only on things he/she can craft. Craft reserve is one big feature of an artificer and because I play one, I'd hate to see it deviate from what it is now.
Skerrit 12-30-06, 01:23 AM	You are correct, the craft reserve portion of the EV must be spent on items the artificer could craft (but then again, the rest of the artificer's EV could also be spent upon things they could craft).
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 12-31-06, 02:17 AM	Also, just for clarification, an artificer losses any craft reserve for levels lower than there current one right? If that is the case than I'd suggest that the retain essense SQ add a bit bigger bonus to the campaign value of the craft reserve.
Skerrit 01-01-07, 01:36 PM	Since you recalculate your EV every convention, you are correct. The craft reserve you have is whatever it is for that level, you get no bonus for previous levels.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 01-02-07, 11:44 PM	Since you recalculate your EV every convention, you are correct. The craft reserve you have is whatever it is for that level, you get no bonus for previous levels. I'm just going to say one last thing prior to no longer commenting on the Artificer subject. By your definition above, a 10th level fighter should have 6 hit points plus their Con modifier (well, and any toughness feats) since they receive no bonus for previous levels. Building higher bonuses to character abilities is the core mechanic of the d20 system of character advancement. The Craft Reserve represents the Artificer's inate understanding of creation of magical items and thus it takes less of a toll on the Artificer XP wise when crafting magical items. Since Xen'drik Expeditions doesn't use the standard Item Creation Rules set the mechanic has been converted to gold pieces to spend on items that the Artificer can craft at that level. Why would an Artificer lose the items that he crafted with their Craft Reserve at first level when they level to second? Under the standard set of rules where consumable items are gone forever when used this situation takes care of itself. However, with the D&D Campaign model in place the Scrolls of Expeditious Retreat and Enlarge Person that I spent my Artificer's entire Craft Reserve on at first level still are a part of them since the scrolls reset once the adventure is complete. Does this require a player of an Artificer to track a lot details than the average PC, it sure does. But this represents that so much of the Artificer classes "power" comes from abilities that don't function at the gaming table. I started Mark of Heroes with my Artificer since I fell in love with the class. At the beginning Artificers were a dime a dozen, at one table I was one of four. Then after the 4th level bump the numbers started dropping. Now after 20+ games and both playing & judging at major cons plus the more local stuff I can say I have encountered exactly 1 other Artificer in Mark of Heroes (I judged at their table at WF 2006). I believe that this is due to the complexity of the class itself and the amount of time needed away from the table to maintain their collection of magic items. Now I have seen two Artificer's starting up in XenEx (one being a Drow) and hope they continue. In summation - to simply lump an Artificer's Craft Reserve into their Equipment Value is a disservice to the Artificer class. While it does require more tracking on the player's part it would cheapen the class far too much. As I said, this the last comment I'll make on the subject and will adhere to any rules decision that the factionmasters dictate (especially since I don't even have an Artificer PC in XenEx to break these rules with). Rob
zstinger 01-03-07, 09:46 AM	Well said, Frobi-Wan Kenobi. I agree absolutely with what you have said, except the part about MoH (cuz I've never played MoH before). I responded to your initial post not realising that the artificer loses the craft reserves he previously received at lower levels and thinking that you were painting the artificer craft reserve ability as being overpowered. XE is my first D&D campaigns experience and since it is never specified to that extent in XECS 1.1 (correct me if I am wrong). I have been playing my past games with the assumption that I get to "keep" (loosely speaking, in the form of items or EV) my craft reserve beyond my current level as long as I spend it, in alignment with the ECS description of the class ability. I knew I was wrong after reading Skerrit's clarification. Apart from the points raised in the above post, this game mechanic also totally cheapens the 300gp bonus to craft reserve at lvl 5 in exchange for a full feat that is retain essence. The way I see it now is that the artificer will get 800gp craft reserve at lvl 5 and subsequently lose that and get just 750gp craft reserve at lvl 6. I hope factionmasters can take another look at the artificer's craft reserve. Thanks.
Skerrit 01-03-07, 11:21 AM	No, you always gain the 300 gp bonus from Retain Essence once you gain that class ability.