Cohort Unlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cohort Unlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Malicea
01-11-08, 09:03 AM With regards to the special unlocked Leadership/cohort reward, can you and do you use your own expansion slots to unlock feats/items for your cohort? I assume any equipment for the cohort would come out of your own EV as well? Also, where it says 'this can be done in advance' in the reward, does this mean that you can have the cohort from the time of receiving the reward, without having to wait till your next feat level? Finally, what happens if the cohort dies during the course of an adventure?
Skerrit
01-11-08, 10:24 AM With regards to the special unlocked Leadership/cohort reward, can you and do you use your own expansion slots to unlock feats/items for your cohort? I assume any equipment for the cohort would come out of your own EV as well? Also, where it says 'this can be done in advance' in the reward, does this mean that you can have the cohort from the time of receiving the reward, without having to wait till your next feat level? Finally, what happens if the cohort dies during the course of an adventure?

This reward needs several clarifications that will be forthcoming in the next XECS, but here is the short version.

1) You cannot unlock anything for your special "cohort." Of course should you unlock an item for yourself, you can always hand it over to the "cohort."

2) Any equipment for that "cohort" comes out of your EV.

3) Yes, following the adventure you can proactively take the "cohort" by allocating your next feat to Leadership by noting it on your Adventure Journal. This will be a choice that cannot be rebuilt.

4) If the "cohort" dies during the adventure, you can raise it by spending EV just as if you had died, only spending the EV appropriate to its HD. Remember that the Story Object mentions this "reward" might not be considered a reward at all by many.

5) You will note I keep saying "cohort" and not cohort, and that is because if you look closely the reward says you do not gain the benefits of the Leadership feat. You gain no followers, you gain nothing related to the feat itself, it cannot be used to qualify for a prestige class (since all prestige classes requiring Leadership are Restricted), the "cohort" does not take up a spot at the table, and the "cohort" DOES NOT advance based on your non-existant Leadership score. If you take Leadership and use this Story Object, you get that base creature; end of story. In many ways it is like the Cabal's Sniveling Sycophant Story Object. Think of it more as a role-playing oppurtunity (albeit in this case with slightly more punch) and NOT a chance to power game. The only way you might she this Story Object "cohort" grow in power is by further Story Objects (otherwise it will stay the same as the base MM creature).
Malicea
01-11-08, 12:27 PM Thanks for the quick response! Will there be special unlocks for the "cohort" at all, given that feats from the MM1 are Locked? Should I assume for now that the "cohort" will have to stick to Limited (as XECS 3.0) material? Is the "cohort's" HP taken from the relevant entry in the MM, or calculated based on the hit die formula in XECS 3.0? Can the "cohort's" choices be retooled, either between level kicks or sessions, and would I need to fill out a character sheet of sorts for the moment? This last question is of particular importance for me because at least one of the choices of "cohort" looks to be extremely useful in the number of skill points it receives! ;) Finally, how is the cohort played at the table, by me or the DM?

Also, good thinking on the 'cannot be rebuilt' clause, otherwise I could see an obvious way to abuse 'can be taken in advance' at the next level kick/rebuild.

EDIT: I take it that by not being able to 'unlock' anything for the "cohort", it means that it cannot select even a feat you have unlocked for yourself either?

EDIT2: some of the "cohort" choices can access an ability that is on the restricted spell list. How will this be resolved?
anony_max
02-11-08, 01:12 PM I'm curious about the skill, feat and HP question for these creatures, as well as the viability for the Large (or some Medium) to be mounts.
Skerrit
02-11-08, 02:06 PM I've put all of it in the XECS which hopefully will be getting into your hands within a week or so. As for riding them, since they never advance, none of them can ever be Large. A Medium is concievable for some choices and I'll address that in the XECS now that you brought it up.
anony_max
02-11-08, 02:20 PM The Wyvern is large though, by default. Kinda stupid, but maybe that's a plus.
Harliquinn
02-11-08, 05:00 PM This reward needs several clarifications that will be forthcoming in the next XECS, but here is the short version.

1) You cannot unlock anything for your special "cohort." Of course should you unlock an item for yourself, you can always hand it over to the "cohort."

I assume that feats in the book from which the cohort is taken are considered 'unlocked' for the cohort only when choosing its feats. The cohorts don't come with any preselected feats, but get anywhere from 2-3 feats that are from that book (with recommendations on what they would typically take).

By the way, I offer great thanks to whoever came up with the reward. Despite any problems the story object may have in store in the future, it is by far in the top two coolest rewards so far. :) I particularly like it with my Codex character. :)
Marcus Majarra
02-11-08, 11:25 PM By the way, I offer great thanks to whoever came up with the reward. Despite any problems the story object may have in store in the future, it is by far in the top two coolest rewards so far. I particularly like it with my Codex character.
I agree with you on this one. My Codex character also got the cohort. It's the main reason I ended picking up a level of Dragonfire Adept (that, and the fact that another story item lets me select it for one less expansion slot). I think I'd like to play in a 6-man Codex party for the campaign finale, where all the characters have this cohort...
Madfox11
02-12-08, 04:52 AM Love the reward as well... there just is something cool about a goblin church inquisitor of the Silver Flame trying to educate a gold dragon about the intricities of human society and the Faith. I am seeing hundreds of potential gains roleplay wise. The fact that since my character is small, he can actually ride it in case of an emergency is just an added bonus. The thought of riding a sentient creature, a child at that, just because you can sounds rather degrading to my character. Although I will admit, I did pick the gold and not the silver because of that reason (alternate form ability was the biggest reason to pick one of the two - walking into dragon with a young dragon into town has this tendency to draw a lot of attention most not good).

When will the XECS be available? I am going to DDXP and I am planning to play this character, but due to travel requirements and so I need to have the character finished and printed early next week... Or can you just answer whether or not we can use MM feats for the cohort?
Skerrit
02-12-08, 09:23 AM This story object is being extensively clarified. You should be getting the XECS in the near future, but here is the section from the XECS along with the new limitations.

EXDP07 - Gratitude of the Chamber: This story needs extensive clarification.
First, the choices of dragon you foster have changed. Choose from this list instead of the list provided in the Story Object: Black (very young), Blue (wyrmling), Brass (very young), Bronze (wyrmling), Copper (wyrmling), Green (wyrmling), White (very young). If you have chosen a previously allowed dragon companion that is no longer available, you are given a onetime allowance to retool your choice.
Second, the dragon you foster is NOT a cohort. The story object allows you to take the Leadership feat in order to gain the benefits of the dragon companion. It does however offer no other benefits related to that feat. You gain no followers, you gain nothing related to the feat itself, it cannot be used to qualify for a prestige class (since all prestige classes requiring Leadership are Restricted), the dragon companion does not take up a spot at the table, and the dragon companion DOES NOT advance based on your non-existent Leadership score. If you take Leadership and use this Story Object, you get that base creature listed above. It remains at that age category for the rest of the campaign.
The dragon companion is built using the details in the Monster Manual with the following modifications for the XEN’DRIK EXPEDITIONS campaign. When building your dragon companion, you may spend skills only on those skills listed as class skills for true dragons and those specific to the color of your dragon. You may choose feats for your dragon from the Player’s Handbook and Monster Manual only. Dragon companions may not choose Item Creation feats. You may retool feat and skill choices for your dragon companion using the normal rules for retooling as if your dragon companion was a character with a level equal to its hit dice. When determining your dragon companion’s hit points, it receives maximum hit points for the first hit die and half plus one plus Constitution modifier for all hit dice after the first.
Your dragon companion has no unlock slots and may not unlock rules items for themselves. You may not spend your unlocks on feats, spells or anything else for dragon companion with one exception. Should you unlock an item for yourself, you can always hand it over to your dragon companion; though the item must still come from a legal source listed in the Optional Materials list on page 2. Any equipment you purchase for your dragon companion must come from Unlimited and Limited items; the cost of which comes out of your character’s EV. Your dragon companion may not select or use feats (or other rules items) unlocked on your expansion list.
Following the adventure in which you gained this story object, you can proactively take the dragon companion by allocating your next feat to Leadership by noting it on your Adventure Journal. This will be a choice that cannot be retooled. The dragon companion chosen (color/age) may not be retooled.
If the dragon companion dies during the adventure, you can raise it by spending EV just as if you had died, only spending the EV appropriate to its HD. Your dragon companion loses one Hit Die when it is raised from the dead. Apply the appropriate adjustments.
You control the actions of your dragon companion, though the DM is free to overrule abusive actions that he or she deems inappropriate from the dragon companion to take. The DM may use the dragon companion in role-playing situations if appropriate.
Harliquinn
02-12-08, 11:33 AM This story object is being extensively clarified. You should be getting the XECS in the near future, but here is the section from the XECS along with the new limitations.

EXDP07 - Gratitude of the Chamber: This story needs extensive clarification.
First, the choices of dragon you foster have changed. Choose from this list instead of the list provided in the Story Object: Black (very young), Blue (wyrmling), Brass (very young), Bronze (wyrmling), Copper (wyrmling), Green (wyrmling), White (very young). If you have chosen a previously allowed dragon companion that is no longer available, you are given a onetime allowance to retool your choice.

I understand there is a need to remove some choices that provided medium or large companions. Could you take a look at the Copper Dragon choice as listed above. In the previous version a Very Young dragon was allowed for Copper (Since they are one of the weakest of the metallic dragons). I noticed above it says Wyrmling now. I'm hoping this is a typo and it should still be Very Young, since it is very comparable to the Black and Brass dragons which both allow Very Young.

A Wyrmling Copper Dragon is the only 'tiny' dragon among the choices now; the rest are all small. The other color/age choices all have at least 6 HD as well. I worry that a tiny copper dragon may not have the ability to survive as well as any of the other choices for which it is comparable.

Thanks for the update and I hope you'll have a look at the above comments.

John
Skerrit
02-12-08, 12:51 PM The change was made based on CR. The Very Young Copper would have been the highest CR, instead of a 3 or 4 like everyone else.
Harliquinn
02-12-08, 01:25 PM I see the numbers you are speaking of now. The copper dragon seems to be a bit of an anomaly. The wyrmling version is the weakest of all the choices but the very young is one of the higher CRs (it seems to make a bigger jump at Very Young than other dragons). I never really looked at the CR when I was comparing, just the relative HD, saves and survivability. Attacking as a tiny creature is pretty difficult :)

Well in either case I'll stick with my Copper Dragon with my Copper Dragon Shaman; I just have to protect him more, especially with the types of damage that we tend to see in the next round of modules. Maybe he'll be more scholarly... Luckily I have the EV to buy him a few items.

Thanks for clarifying!
anony_max
02-12-08, 03:30 PM Any chance the faction specific rewards (specifically Codex) can be clarified?

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15063780

The wording online doesn't seem to match what we were shown by the DM at the module.

Thanks.
Mad Monkey
02-12-08, 05:36 PM What is the reason you removed the Silver Dragon from the list? It's CR is 4 just like the Brass Dragon or the Black Dragon.

Silver, my warforged psion of the Silver Flame would have liked to raise a Silver Dragon.
Harliquinn
02-12-08, 07:31 PM I believe the others were removed due to A) size or B) the alter self ability.
Marcus Majarra
02-13-08, 12:14 AM This makes the dragon cohort somewhat less interesting... So long for the gold wyrmling.
Skerrit
02-13-08, 09:11 AM The alternate form ability has all sorts of potential problems, especially since polymorph is not allowed in the campaign. It was for this reason that silver and gold had to go (and gold was already much more powerful than all the other choices).
Malicea
02-13-08, 05:18 PM The alternate form ability has all sorts of potential problems, especially since polymorph is not allowed in the campaign. It was for this reason that silver and gold had to go (and gold was already much more powerful than all the other choices).

Sad to see them go, but not altogether surprised. We had 1 session with a gold wyrmling, and the little guy was extremely effective, to the point where it might potentially steal too much limelight. Alternate form with 88 skill points and the gold's stat bonuses was too good. And he was only given around 22000gp of gear. Still, you gotta expect that when his ECL is greater than the players' (ECL12). Now it remains to be seen if anyone is going to still take this in hopes of seeing the story-based link hinted at so far :)

A final question that's only coming up because of the non-standard way that HP is done for the dragons (not MM, not campaign standard - 8 for d12s) - How are stats done for the dragons, lift from MM or X point-buy? I'm guessing HP is improved slightly because the survivability of the new dragon choices is otherwise too low.
Skerrit
02-13-08, 11:00 PM Sad to see them go, but not altogether surprised. We had 1 session with a gold wyrmling, and the little guy was extremely effective, to the point where it might potentially steal too much limelight. Alternate form with 88 skill points and the gold's stat bonuses was too good. And he was only given around 22000gp of gear. Still, you gotta expect that when his ECL is greater than the players' (ECL12). Now it remains to be seen if anyone is going to still take this in hopes of seeing the story-based link hinted at so far :)

A final question that's only coming up because of the non-standard way that HP is done for the dragons (not MM, not campaign standard - 8 for d12s) - How are stats done for the dragons, lift from MM or X point-buy? I'm guessing HP is improved slightly because the survivability of the new dragon choices is otherwise too low.

You use the stats listed in the MM.
Uthrac
02-15-08, 09:02 PM Minor issue: Languages. Draconic only.

Bonus languages for INT?
Skill points to spend?

Or do these babies only speak Draconic? :)
Uthrac
02-20-08, 02:37 PM Alignment: Fluid, or must match the MM?
Skerrit
02-20-08, 03:05 PM 1) You get and spend your skill points just like the MM says you do when building a dragon.

2) Just like anything else, you get bonus languages for a high INT (if your baby has a high enough score).

3) In Eberron, dragon alignments vary, so you may choose as you like. No evil alignments for non-Cabal PCs.
Uthrac
02-20-08, 03:58 PM All makes sense. Thanks! :D
Uthrac
03-02-08, 11:04 AM 1) You get and spend your skill points just like the MM says you do when building a dragon.

From Campaign Standards 4.0:

"When building your dragon companion, you may spend skills only on those skills listed as class skills for true dragons and those specific to the color of your dragon."

Speak language is not listed as a class skill for dragons in the MM.

All dragons with a 10 INT can only speak draconic?
lorika
03-02-08, 11:31 AM All dragons with a 10 INT can only speak draconic?

That's a good point/question. Of the options for dragon cohorts, only Bronze and Copper dragons have an intelligence score high enough to get an extra language.

Can we spend skill points as normal to buy extra languages as a cross-class skill?

Also - do the dragons get their own initiative (like a normal cohort) or do they act on the player's turn (like an animal companion)?
Skerrit
03-03-08, 02:12 PM All dragons with a 10 INT can only speak draconic?

That is correct; and it leads to all kinds of fun RP possibilities.
Skerrit
03-03-08, 02:15 PM Can we spend skill points as normal to buy extra languages as a cross-class skill?

Also - do the dragons get their own initiative (like a normal cohort) or do they act on the player's turn (like an animal companion)?

1) Only if they have it as a class skill. (I don't think any do but I don't have a book in front of me).

2) That's a DM call; the rules don't specifically call for one or the other.
lorika
03-03-08, 03:35 PM 1) Only if they have it as a class skill. (I don't think any do but I don't have a book in front of me).

Unfortunately none of the dragons have speak language as a class skill (which is a little shocking for the brass dragon linguists).

That is correct; and it leads to all kinds of fun RP possibilities.

A Brass dragon that only speaks draconic? :eek: How in the world will it be able to engage in conversation with absolutely everything and everyone? Brass dragons are often fluent in several hundred different languages and can learn a new language in less than an hour, but these poor baby dragons will only be able to speak draconic? I guess they'll just have to talk incessantly to themselves. Poor little guys. :(
EvilCouch
03-03-08, 10:05 PM On the plus side, Draconic seems to be about the most common non-automatic language, especially among arcane spell casters.
lorika
03-10-08, 08:39 AM True. But those skill points become very precious for the dumb fighter types... If you're not human, learning a new language would take two entire levels! :eek:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malicea 01-11-08, 09:03 AM	With regards to the special unlocked Leadership/cohort reward, can you and do you use your own expansion slots to unlock feats/items for your cohort? I assume any equipment for the cohort would come out of your own EV as well? Also, where it says 'this can be done in advance' in the reward, does this mean that you can have the cohort from the time of receiving the reward, without having to wait till your next feat level? Finally, what happens if the cohort dies during the course of an adventure?
Skerrit 01-11-08, 10:24 AM	With regards to the special unlocked Leadership/cohort reward, can you and do you use your own expansion slots to unlock feats/items for your cohort? I assume any equipment for the cohort would come out of your own EV as well? Also, where it says 'this can be done in advance' in the reward, does this mean that you can have the cohort from the time of receiving the reward, without having to wait till your next feat level? Finally, what happens if the cohort dies during the course of an adventure? This reward needs several clarifications that will be forthcoming in the next XECS, but here is the short version. 1) You cannot unlock anything for your special "cohort." Of course should you unlock an item for yourself, you can always hand it over to the "cohort." 2) Any equipment for that "cohort" comes out of your EV. 3) Yes, following the adventure you can proactively take the "cohort" by allocating your next feat to Leadership by noting it on your Adventure Journal. This will be a choice that cannot be rebuilt. 4) If the "cohort" dies during the adventure, you can raise it by spending EV just as if you had died, only spending the EV appropriate to its HD. Remember that the Story Object mentions this "reward" might not be considered a reward at all by many. 5) You will note I keep saying "cohort" and not cohort, and that is because if you look closely the reward says you do not gain the benefits of the Leadership feat. You gain no followers, you gain nothing related to the feat itself, it cannot be used to qualify for a prestige class (since all prestige classes requiring Leadership are Restricted), the "cohort" does not take up a spot at the table, and the "cohort" DOES NOT advance based on your non-existant Leadership score. If you take Leadership and use this Story Object, you get that base creature; end of story. In many ways it is like the Cabal's Sniveling Sycophant Story Object. Think of it more as a role-playing oppurtunity (albeit in this case with slightly more punch) and NOT a chance to power game. The only way you might she this Story Object "cohort" grow in power is by further Story Objects (otherwise it will stay the same as the base MM creature).
Malicea 01-11-08, 12:27 PM	Thanks for the quick response! Will there be special unlocks for the "cohort" at all, given that feats from the MM1 are Locked? Should I assume for now that the "cohort" will have to stick to Limited (as XECS 3.0) material? Is the "cohort's" HP taken from the relevant entry in the MM, or calculated based on the hit die formula in XECS 3.0? Can the "cohort's" choices be retooled, either between level kicks or sessions, and would I need to fill out a character sheet of sorts for the moment? This last question is of particular importance for me because at least one of the choices of "cohort" looks to be extremely useful in the number of skill points it receives! ;) Finally, how is the cohort played at the table, by me or the DM? Also, good thinking on the 'cannot be rebuilt' clause, otherwise I could see an obvious way to abuse 'can be taken in advance' at the next level kick/rebuild. EDIT: I take it that by not being able to 'unlock' anything for the "cohort", it means that it cannot select even a feat you have unlocked for yourself either? EDIT2: some of the "cohort" choices can access an ability that is on the restricted spell list. How will this be resolved?
anony_max 02-11-08, 01:12 PM	I'm curious about the skill, feat and HP question for these creatures, as well as the viability for the Large (or some Medium) to be mounts.
Skerrit 02-11-08, 02:06 PM	I've put all of it in the XECS which hopefully will be getting into your hands within a week or so. As for riding them, since they never advance, none of them can ever be Large. A Medium is concievable for some choices and I'll address that in the XECS now that you brought it up.
anony_max 02-11-08, 02:20 PM	The Wyvern is large though, by default. Kinda stupid, but maybe that's a plus.
Harliquinn 02-11-08, 05:00 PM	This reward needs several clarifications that will be forthcoming in the next XECS, but here is the short version. 1) You cannot unlock anything for your special "cohort." Of course should you unlock an item for yourself, you can always hand it over to the "cohort." I assume that feats in the book from which the cohort is taken are considered 'unlocked' for the cohort only when choosing its feats. The cohorts don't come with any preselected feats, but get anywhere from 2-3 feats that are from that book (with recommendations on what they would typically take). By the way, I offer great thanks to whoever came up with the reward. Despite any problems the story object may have in store in the future, it is by far in the top two coolest rewards so far. :) I particularly like it with my Codex character. :)
Marcus Majarra 02-11-08, 11:25 PM	By the way, I offer great thanks to whoever came up with the reward. Despite any problems the story object may have in store in the future, it is by far in the top two coolest rewards so far. I particularly like it with my Codex character. I agree with you on this one. My Codex character also got the cohort. It's the main reason I ended picking up a level of Dragonfire Adept (that, and the fact that another story item lets me select it for one less expansion slot). I think I'd like to play in a 6-man Codex party for the campaign finale, where all the characters have this cohort...
Madfox11 02-12-08, 04:52 AM	Love the reward as well... there just is something cool about a goblin church inquisitor of the Silver Flame trying to educate a gold dragon about the intricities of human society and the Faith. I am seeing hundreds of potential gains roleplay wise. The fact that since my character is small, he can actually ride it in case of an emergency is just an added bonus. The thought of riding a sentient creature, a child at that, just because you can sounds rather degrading to my character. Although I will admit, I did pick the gold and not the silver because of that reason (alternate form ability was the biggest reason to pick one of the two - walking into dragon with a young dragon into town has this tendency to draw a lot of attention most not good). When will the XECS be available? I am going to DDXP and I am planning to play this character, but due to travel requirements and so I need to have the character finished and printed early next week... Or can you just answer whether or not we can use MM feats for the cohort?
Skerrit 02-12-08, 09:23 AM	This story object is being extensively clarified. You should be getting the XECS in the near future, but here is the section from the XECS along with the new limitations. EXDP07 - Gratitude of the Chamber: This story needs extensive clarification. First, the choices of dragon you foster have changed. Choose from this list instead of the list provided in the Story Object: Black (very young), Blue (wyrmling), Brass (very young), Bronze (wyrmling), Copper (wyrmling), Green (wyrmling), White (very young). If you have chosen a previously allowed dragon companion that is no longer available, you are given a onetime allowance to retool your choice. Second, the dragon you foster is NOT a cohort. The story object allows you to take the Leadership feat in order to gain the benefits of the dragon companion. It does however offer no other benefits related to that feat. You gain no followers, you gain nothing related to the feat itself, it cannot be used to qualify for a prestige class (since all prestige classes requiring Leadership are Restricted), the dragon companion does not take up a spot at the table, and the dragon companion DOES NOT advance based on your non-existent Leadership score. If you take Leadership and use this Story Object, you get that base creature listed above. It remains at that age category for the rest of the campaign. The dragon companion is built using the details in the Monster Manual with the following modifications for the XEN’DRIK EXPEDITIONS campaign. When building your dragon companion, you may spend skills only on those skills listed as class skills for true dragons and those specific to the color of your dragon. You may choose feats for your dragon from the Player’s Handbook and Monster Manual only. Dragon companions may not choose Item Creation feats. You may retool feat and skill choices for your dragon companion using the normal rules for retooling as if your dragon companion was a character with a level equal to its hit dice. When determining your dragon companion’s hit points, it receives maximum hit points for the first hit die and half plus one plus Constitution modifier for all hit dice after the first. Your dragon companion has no unlock slots and may not unlock rules items for themselves. You may not spend your unlocks on feats, spells or anything else for dragon companion with one exception. Should you unlock an item for yourself, you can always hand it over to your dragon companion; though the item must still come from a legal source listed in the Optional Materials list on page 2. Any equipment you purchase for your dragon companion must come from Unlimited and Limited items; the cost of which comes out of your character’s EV. Your dragon companion may not select or use feats (or other rules items) unlocked on your expansion list. Following the adventure in which you gained this story object, you can proactively take the dragon companion by allocating your next feat to Leadership by noting it on your Adventure Journal. This will be a choice that cannot be retooled. The dragon companion chosen (color/age) may not be retooled. If the dragon companion dies during the adventure, you can raise it by spending EV just as if you had died, only spending the EV appropriate to its HD. Your dragon companion loses one Hit Die when it is raised from the dead. Apply the appropriate adjustments. You control the actions of your dragon companion, though the DM is free to overrule abusive actions that he or she deems inappropriate from the dragon companion to take. The DM may use the dragon companion in role-playing situations if appropriate.
Harliquinn 02-12-08, 11:33 AM	This story object is being extensively clarified. You should be getting the XECS in the near future, but here is the section from the XECS along with the new limitations. EXDP07 - Gratitude of the Chamber: This story needs extensive clarification. First, the choices of dragon you foster have changed. Choose from this list instead of the list provided in the Story Object: Black (very young), Blue (wyrmling), Brass (very young), Bronze (wyrmling), Copper (wyrmling), Green (wyrmling), White (very young). If you have chosen a previously allowed dragon companion that is no longer available, you are given a onetime allowance to retool your choice. I understand there is a need to remove some choices that provided medium or large companions. Could you take a look at the Copper Dragon choice as listed above. In the previous version a Very Young dragon was allowed for Copper (Since they are one of the weakest of the metallic dragons). I noticed above it says Wyrmling now. I'm hoping this is a typo and it should still be Very Young, since it is very comparable to the Black and Brass dragons which both allow Very Young. A Wyrmling Copper Dragon is the only 'tiny' dragon among the choices now; the rest are all small. The other color/age choices all have at least 6 HD as well. I worry that a tiny copper dragon may not have the ability to survive as well as any of the other choices for which it is comparable. Thanks for the update and I hope you'll have a look at the above comments. John
Skerrit 02-12-08, 12:51 PM	The change was made based on CR. The Very Young Copper would have been the highest CR, instead of a 3 or 4 like everyone else.
Harliquinn 02-12-08, 01:25 PM	I see the numbers you are speaking of now. The copper dragon seems to be a bit of an anomaly. The wyrmling version is the weakest of all the choices but the very young is one of the higher CRs (it seems to make a bigger jump at Very Young than other dragons). I never really looked at the CR when I was comparing, just the relative HD, saves and survivability. Attacking as a tiny creature is pretty difficult :) Well in either case I'll stick with my Copper Dragon with my Copper Dragon Shaman; I just have to protect him more, especially with the types of damage that we tend to see in the next round of modules. Maybe he'll be more scholarly... Luckily I have the EV to buy him a few items. Thanks for clarifying!
anony_max 02-12-08, 03:30 PM	Any chance the faction specific rewards (specifically Codex) can be clarified? http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15063780 The wording online doesn't seem to match what we were shown by the DM at the module. Thanks.
Mad Monkey 02-12-08, 05:36 PM	What is the reason you removed the Silver Dragon from the list? It's CR is 4 just like the Brass Dragon or the Black Dragon. Silver, my warforged psion of the Silver Flame would have liked to raise a Silver Dragon.
Harliquinn 02-12-08, 07:31 PM	I believe the others were removed due to A) size or B) the alter self ability.
Marcus Majarra 02-13-08, 12:14 AM	This makes the dragon cohort somewhat less interesting... So long for the gold wyrmling.
Skerrit 02-13-08, 09:11 AM	The alternate form ability has all sorts of potential problems, especially since polymorph is not allowed in the campaign. It was for this reason that silver and gold had to go (and gold was already much more powerful than all the other choices).
Malicea 02-13-08, 05:18 PM	The alternate form ability has all sorts of potential problems, especially since polymorph is not allowed in the campaign. It was for this reason that silver and gold had to go (and gold was already much more powerful than all the other choices). Sad to see them go, but not altogether surprised. We had 1 session with a gold wyrmling, and the little guy was extremely effective, to the point where it might potentially steal too much limelight. Alternate form with 88 skill points and the gold's stat bonuses was too good. And he was only given around 22000gp of gear. Still, you gotta expect that when his ECL is greater than the players' (ECL12). Now it remains to be seen if anyone is going to still take this in hopes of seeing the story-based link hinted at so far :) A final question that's only coming up because of the non-standard way that HP is done for the dragons (not MM, not campaign standard - 8 for d12s) - How are stats done for the dragons, lift from MM or X point-buy? I'm guessing HP is improved slightly because the survivability of the new dragon choices is otherwise too low.
Skerrit 02-13-08, 11:00 PM	Sad to see them go, but not altogether surprised. We had 1 session with a gold wyrmling, and the little guy was extremely effective, to the point where it might potentially steal too much limelight. Alternate form with 88 skill points and the gold's stat bonuses was too good. And he was only given around 22000gp of gear. Still, you gotta expect that when his ECL is greater than the players' (ECL12). Now it remains to be seen if anyone is going to still take this in hopes of seeing the story-based link hinted at so far :) A final question that's only coming up because of the non-standard way that HP is done for the dragons (not MM, not campaign standard - 8 for d12s) - How are stats done for the dragons, lift from MM or X point-buy? I'm guessing HP is improved slightly because the survivability of the new dragon choices is otherwise too low. You use the stats listed in the MM.
Uthrac 02-15-08, 09:02 PM	Minor issue: Languages. Draconic only. Bonus languages for INT? Skill points to spend? Or do these babies only speak Draconic? :)
Uthrac 02-20-08, 02:37 PM	Alignment: Fluid, or must match the MM?
Skerrit 02-20-08, 03:05 PM	1) You get and spend your skill points just like the MM says you do when building a dragon. 2) Just like anything else, you get bonus languages for a high INT (if your baby has a high enough score). 3) In Eberron, dragon alignments vary, so you may choose as you like. No evil alignments for non-Cabal PCs.
Uthrac 02-20-08, 03:58 PM	All makes sense. Thanks! :D
Uthrac 03-02-08, 11:04 AM	1) You get and spend your skill points just like the MM says you do when building a dragon. From Campaign Standards 4.0: "When building your dragon companion, you may spend skills only on those skills listed as class skills for true dragons and those specific to the color of your dragon." Speak language is not listed as a class skill for dragons in the MM. All dragons with a 10 INT can only speak draconic?
lorika 03-02-08, 11:31 AM	All dragons with a 10 INT can only speak draconic? That's a good point/question. Of the options for dragon cohorts, only Bronze and Copper dragons have an intelligence score high enough to get an extra language. Can we spend skill points as normal to buy extra languages as a cross-class skill? Also - do the dragons get their own initiative (like a normal cohort) or do they act on the player's turn (like an animal companion)?
Skerrit 03-03-08, 02:12 PM	All dragons with a 10 INT can only speak draconic? That is correct; and it leads to all kinds of fun RP possibilities.
Skerrit 03-03-08, 02:15 PM	Can we spend skill points as normal to buy extra languages as a cross-class skill? Also - do the dragons get their own initiative (like a normal cohort) or do they act on the player's turn (like an animal companion)? 1) Only if they have it as a class skill. (I don't think any do but I don't have a book in front of me). 2) That's a DM call; the rules don't specifically call for one or the other.
lorika 03-03-08, 03:35 PM	1) Only if they have it as a class skill. (I don't think any do but I don't have a book in front of me). Unfortunately none of the dragons have speak language as a class skill (which is a little shocking for the brass dragon linguists). That is correct; and it leads to all kinds of fun RP possibilities. A Brass dragon that only speaks draconic? :eek: How in the world will it be able to engage in conversation with absolutely everything and everyone? Brass dragons are often fluent in several hundred different languages and can learn a new language in less than an hour, but these poor baby dragons will only be able to speak draconic? I guess they'll just have to talk incessantly to themselves. Poor little guys. :(
EvilCouch 03-03-08, 10:05 PM	On the plus side, Draconic seems to be about the most common non-automatic language, especially among arcane spell casters.
lorika 03-10-08, 08:39 AM	True. But those skill points become very precious for the dumb fighter types... If you're not human, learning a new language would take two entire levels! :eek: