Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fiery_Fighter_Drake 06-06-07, 01:23 PM	So, I managed to get a hold of a copy of Complete Champion. Looking through the new domain feats, anyone can take them but clerics and any other class that can turn or rebuke undead (such as the paladin and dread nercomancer) benefit the most as they can gain another use simply by expanding a turn or rebuke attempt. Of the new PrCs, only 3 that are easily accessible; the Ordained Champion, Shadowspy and Shadowstriker. Of these, only the Ordained Champion is availble to evil characters. It won't impact my games much, I think, but I'll have to see how my fellow players use the new feats. I may go into Shadowstriker for my Knight, since it's only 3 levels.
Harliquinn 06-06-07, 01:28 PM	It won't impact my games much, I think, but I'll have to see how my fellow players use the new feats. I may go into Shadowstriker for my Knight, since it's only 3 levels. Not until at least after Origins when Standards 3.0 come out. It's not an allowed source yet. There are some *nice* abilities in there though. The Barbarian substitution of Fast Movement for Pounce is shiny! Harliquinn
smerwin29 06-06-07, 02:15 PM	Yeah, that lion totem benefit for Spiritual Totem is a little more than shiny. I hate to throw around words like "broken," but great googly moogly! Take a simple EL 8 encounter for a party of 7th level characters: two barbarians level 6. Normally, those barbarians, can charge and power attack, getting one attack each. Usually the PCs, even if hit, are still standing and the barbarians have a pretty low AC in for the return full attacks. Now add this substitution and one feat: Leap attack. Now those barbarians are doing about 15 extra points per attack, and they get two attacks instead of one. Now it is less likely those on the receiving end of the pounce are still wearing a head on their shoulders. Not good. Not good. I had an informal focus group at Origins a couple years back of the biggest power gamers I have come across in my travels. The pounce ability for power attackers was one of those things that the group was mercifully not in the game, or at least not easily accessible. Not it seems it is, and only at the cost of 10 extra feet of movement. Yikes.
Harliquinn 06-06-07, 02:37 PM	Yeah, that lion totem benefit for Spiritual Totem is a little more than shiny. I hate to throw around words like "broken," but great googly moogly! I agree Shawn. Pounce is one of those abilities that just break certain things and it was always hard to get (either limited in scope, opportunity or effect). Now it seems it is almost a 'must have' ability for Barbarians. Had it been limited to "While raging" or something, that might have made it somewhat more balanced.
Timlagor 06-06-07, 05:53 PM	If you allow the Barb ability I will rebuild my Revenant Blade with Shocktrooper, Pounce, ITWF, Imp Crit, Leap Attack and of course PA at 10th level (oh and a Sacred Scabbard..not sure if I can get Quickdraw in before 12) ... that'll leave plenty of time for roleplaying :D [just make sure we have some Prot Evil around ;)] EDIT: actually swapping Barb in for the 2 Fighter levels might make Leap Attack have to wait.. but I don't think anyone will notice the difference.
Madfox11 06-07-07, 04:16 AM	With the pounce ability even monks would be hardpressed not to take a level of barbarian. They might not be able to rage, but who cares when you get pounce? Nah, even if Xen'drik allows that ability, I have a feeling nobody in my group would take it out of pitty with the DM.
Marcus Majarra 06-07-07, 01:24 PM	I think the Pounce ability is overestimated. There are already many things that prevent a character from charging. Pounce is about as circumstantial as charging is, and only becomes reasonably useful when you are allowed a high number of accurate attacks.
lseelba 06-07-07, 01:51 PM	I think the Pounce ability is overestimated. There are already many things that prevent a character from charging. Pounce is about as circumstantial as charging is, and only becomes reasonably useful when you are allowed a high number of accurate attacks. Yes but when you combine it with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Power Attack the synergies are a bit rediculous. Obstacles in my way? I'll just jump over them...and deal 100% extra damage...at my full BAB...while full power attacking with a 2-handed weapon. Honestly, a one level dip into barb was already tempting for most melee types. Now that dip almost becomes mandatory.
smerwin29 06-07-07, 02:31 PM	I think the Pounce ability is overestimated. There are already many things that prevent a character from charging. Pounce is about as circumstantial as charging is, and only becomes reasonably useful when you are allowed a high number of accurate attacks. I think that a lot of things that are decried as "broken" are over-reactions. This one is not. Being able to get a full attack at the end of a movement is unbalanced. As was noted above, there are feats and circumstances that make charging much easier, and I see charging as easy already. Each of these issues is always opinion, and when this ability starts to filter through the various campaigns, you are going to see how unbalanced it is.
Timlagor 06-08-07, 10:48 PM	I'm not expecting to see it in LG or XE.. but Revenant Cheese is allowed in XE so who knows :D
Marcus Majarra 06-09-07, 03:52 AM	I think that a lot of things that are decried as "broken" are over-reactions. This one is not. Being able to get a full attack at the end of a movement is unbalanced. As was noted above, there are feats and circumstances that make charging much easier, and I see charging as easy already. Each of these issues is always opinion, and when this ability starts to filter through the various campaigns, you are going to see how unbalanced it is. Unbalanced as opposed to what? Not having the ability in the first place? Of course, any decent ability will be an improvement over what you can already do. Whether or not it's considered unbalanced is debatable, since most people tend to limit the scope of their comparison. While the ability to pounce at first level might seem useful, it's actually not really worthwhile before at least level 6 unless your character has a means to land a more impressive full attack early on (which always result in a loss of accuracy at low levels, and sometimes implies some impressive costs, especially in this campaign, as is the case with TWF and the Dex requirement). And when it does become worthwhile, you need to make your comparison with many of the other common options. Druids are already wild shaping into forms with pounce that boast a better strength and more attacks than your pouncing barbarian. Primary spellcasters are either already wielding save-or-die spells (phantasmal killer is available as early as 7th-level) or have multiple target spells that will deal just as much damage as your pouncing barbarian (with the exception that the caster can safely remain away). Even rogues will have a higher damage output than your pouncer, since they can consistently keep up their sneak attack damage from the moment they first get into position. The only one who gets the wrong end of the stick here is the fighter, who, in all reason, will not be able to produce as much damage. Then again, the fighter is: 1. Already at a disadvantage compared to other classes (more so in Xen'drik Expeditions, since non-core feats are an expensive commodity) due to lack of significant power and versatility. 2. Not a primary damage dealer. The fighter is a battlefield controller first and foremost. Now, even if you do explore the more synergistic options, such as the aforementioned Pounce + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack, most of these will be expensive in terms of unlocked abilities and actual character investments. Shock Trooper and Leap Attack already require that you burn 4 feats as a whole, and getting Pounce in increases the unlock cost to 6 levels. And for what? Two, or maybe three really good attacks when charging conditions are favorable? If your pouncing barbarian is fighting multiple opponents, just using this combo is like begging to be struck by a hail of weapons due to the significant sacrifice of AC (even the meager CR 1/3 skeleton archers from DMH10 Desolate Endeavor will make short work of the pouncing barbarian). Against a single opponent, odds are a single pounce will not be enough to down it, at which point you're no longer able to pounce (making your feat chain useless) and are quite vulnerable to your opponent's attacks. In any case, what I fail to see is how giving another class the ability to pounce is game-breaking. It's mostly useless at low levels, and many classes have a way to acquire the ability in the mid-levels (where it starts becoming useful). The only really broken pounce builds I've seen are those that actually manage to land in multiple pounces in one turn.
smerwin29 06-09-07, 07:25 AM	Thanks for your opinions.
Timlagor 06-09-07, 05:10 PM	Marcus: Every TWF rogue will have a Barbarian level for a start Shocktrooper (and Combat Brute) was clearly designed with the intention that Pounce not be applied -at least the Druids have less BAB. I can build a 12th level character with 7 attacks a round (GTWF+Haste) for 1d8+45 damage each that will score a Critical Hit every time I roll a 15 or higher against any evil opponent (and I'll have Great Cleave) -nothing lives long enough to make a full attack back (unless it's using Pounce too). My Initiative Mod is at least +4 and we can have 6 of these in the party. (I haven't actually checked that all the feats fit but they're certainly not far off) Of course I can already get that kind of nonsense at 16th level with Wildrunner -I'll grant that Revenant Blade is the biggest problem with the above but: * Every Rogue can now take a level of Barbarian to Pounce their little hearts out: given that people happily take the Two Weapon Pounce feat.. * I haven't even mentioned the mounted lance chargers! [oh and I despair when I see a fighter who can't deal effective damage. Fighters can do 'battlefield control' but they're really not that good at it compared to Wizards whereas they are better at dealing damage and surviving next to the bag nasty]
Sieylianna 06-10-07, 11:36 AM	My blackwheel catfolk swashbuckler/rogue (created before daring outlaw came out) TWF will pick up a level of barbarian for this ability once it's legal. It's even better than catfolk pounce, which is the main reason this PC is a catfolk. Ed
Marcus Majarra 06-10-07, 07:20 PM	Every TWF rogue will have a Barbarian level for a start While this would be an issue in normal campaigns, level dipping is not so easy in RPGA campaigns. While I'd very much like to take a Bar1/Rng2/Ftr2 lead into Revenant Blade (with pounce or otherwise), it's unfortunately impossible. And in the cases where the character is not dipping, then I see it as justifiable that the character specialize in skirmish tactics. I see nothing wrong with a Swift Hunter ranger/scout dipping into barbarian for pounce and concentrating on the TWF style. Shocktrooper (and Combat Brute) was clearly designed with the intention that Pounce not be applied This is debatable. In all honesty, I find Shock Trooper to be more "broken" than pounce. D&D is already engineered to disfavor tanking (since most beater-type monsters have really good attack bonuses anyway, and tanking only makes combat last longer without any added benefit), so any maneuver that sacrifices defense at the expense of power is really where the problem's at. If it weren't for Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, would pounce even be an issue? at least the Druids have less BAB The thing is: druids care very little for BAB, since most of their forms do not use iterative attacks to begin with. Their only use for BAB is to fuel feats. I can build a 12th level character with 7 attacks a round (GTWF+Haste) for 1d8+45 damage each that will score a Critical Hit every time I roll a 15 or higher against any evil opponent (and I'll have Great Cleave) -nothing lives long enough to make a full attack back (unless it's using Pounce too). I can build a 12th-level character who can unleash virtually every 0-level through 6th-level evocation/conjuration spell from the PHB at a moment's notice at CL18 silently, and extended, with a save DC equal to at least 18 + Int mod (being at least 21 in this instance). And then cast any other 0-level through 6th-level evocation/conjuration spell from the PHB at the same strength, using a 0-level spell slot. This is not a very complicated build either: Gnome Illusionist 7 / Shadowcraft Mage 5, with Earth Spell and Residual Magic. Okay, it's granted that the XenEx standards prevent this from working completely on account of Residual Magic being restricted, the the character can still do pretty awful things by emulating so many different spells at a moment's notice. And if the character takes Metamagic School Focus instead, he can even emulate 7th-level spells with his shadow magic, a level of spellcasting normally beyond him. Sure, the Revenant Blade is impressive in melee, but our little 12th-level gnome here could simply be silently evoking a double-extended shadow forcecage around his opponent (as an 8th-level spell, with a CL of 19) for the next 114 hours. And this is done as a standard action. Without any components beyond those of a silent image spell. Make him 13th-level, and the forcecage becomes a trap the soul spell. The point is: there's plenty of room for synergy in the campaign standards. I very much doubt the allowance of the barbarian variant class feature will be broken for the game, especially since taking it forces everyone to make barbarian their starting class. I haven't even mentioned the mounted lance chargers! Mounted lance chargers in no way benefit from pounce. At all. For starters, mounted lancers do not charge. Their mounts do. When the mount charges, the rider takes the penalty from charging. If the rider decides to make an attack at the end of the charge, he also gets the bonus from the charge. The point is: the rider is never charging on his own; his mount is. This is in the combat rules PHB157. oh and I despair when I see a fighter who can't deal effective damage. Fighters can do 'battlefield control' but they're really not that good at it compared to Wizards whereas they are better at dealing damage and surviving next to the bag nasty While I can't disagree with the former (there's very little a fighter can do that other classes can't do better), wizards are still better at dealing damage and surviving than the fighter. You just can't beat the versatility of magic, no matter how hard you try. My blackwheel catfolk swashbuckler/rogue (created before daring outlaw came out) TWF will pick up a level of barbarian for this ability once it's legal. It's even better than catfolk pounce, which is the main reason this PC is a catfolk. For starters, you'd have to restart your character from scratch (unless your first level was barbarian). Second, you'd still be better off with Catfolk Pounce than a barbarian dip. Your enhanced Dex is already a good way to easily qualify for TWF feats. Daring Outlaw will make it so that taking rogue levels will be useless, so you can concentrate on Swashbuckler levels instead. Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 15 is worthwhile for a catfolk. What I see is a very nasty, twin-kukri catfolk skirmisher. Shock Trooper is worthwhile for him too. He can charge through obstacles, make a full attack, and deal plenty of strength damage too. Other interesting choices include Improved Critical, Telling Blow (for 10d6 SA on criticals), and Leap Attack (can be used quite easily with Acrobatic Skill Mastery).
lseelba 06-10-07, 08:08 PM	Honestly you have some good points. I don't think you will find many people who say pounce by itself is broken. What is broken is that you can obtain this very valuable ability at a ridiculously low cost. A one-level dip into barbarian (which does not have to be your first class...you might misunderstand how multiclassing works in XE). I wouldn't be so against it if it were part of a prestige class you had to qualify for, or if it took the place of a barbarians Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 5. But as it is right now, its just a fat juicy cherry waiting to be picked. Cherry-picking was rampant in 3.0, and it was fixed a lot in the conversion to 3.5. Looks like it is creeping back into the game. PS As for multiclassing, most races have a racial favored class, and the player chooses a secondary favored class. You actually want to choose a secondary favored class that you plan on taking 2 or 1 levels in. If you are planning on taking a bunch of levels of rogue and two levels of fighter, the last thing you want to do is have your secondary favored class be rogue, even though rogue will be your class at first level. It's counterintuitive, but your main classes are the classes that are NOT favored classes. Also humans and half-elves are different. The player picks three favored classes, and once again you want those to be classes you plan to dip into. You are just hurting yourself by picking your main class as any one of these three favored classes. Lou
Timlagor 06-10-07, 10:07 PM	The reason you have to take Barbarian at first level is that that's the only way to unlock the Variant Ability. Comparisons with things you can't do in XE aren't relevant. It's true that 3 spells/day of a higher tier is pretty darn potent though.
lseelba 06-11-07, 01:51 PM	The reason you have to take Barbarian at first level is that that's the only way to unlock the Variant Ability. Comparisons with things you can't do in XE aren't relevant. It's true that 3 spells/day of a higher tier is pretty darn potent though. Ah. I don't have the Complete Champion yet. I was just going off the pounce description from the MM. If it is a variant, why is this discussion even relevent? I thought Xen'drik didn't use variant rules.
Harliquinn 06-11-07, 02:07 PM	It's a class variant alternative ability and those are allowed but must be unlocked as your 1st expansion for your 1st level class.
Skerrit 06-12-07, 09:24 AM	Just like LG, don't expect to see that alt. class feature in XE.
Madfox11 06-12-07, 10:03 AM	It's a class variant alternative ability and those are allowed but must be unlocked as your 1st expansion for your 1st level class. I was wondering about this... what about higher level alternate class abilities that work upon each other such as the other barbarian totem abilities which are quiet reasonable?
pedr 06-12-07, 10:24 AM	From my understanding, if you want access to any of the alternative class abilities, you must take the class you want to have a varient of as your first class, and you unlock "<class> alternative class abilities". You don't have to take all of them, and you don't have to take an available 1st level one - if there were alternative 1st and 3rd level abilities you could not take the first level one and take the third level one, or both, or vice versa. But you can only do this for the class you took at first level, using your first level slot choice. I think.
Harliquinn 06-12-07, 11:59 AM	I think. You think correctly.
Istaran 07-10-07, 07:24 PM	I don't think you will find many people who say pounce by itself is broken. What is broken is that you can obtain this very valuable ability at a ridiculously low cost. A one-level dip into barbarian Is a core (ECS) feat too high a cost for the ability to perform a move followed by a full attack? Or is it that action points are concidered too scarce/precious? (Most of my characters are finding themselves with more AP then they know what to do with these days, and it will only get more so as the AP cap scales.) Or do you need to be specifically counted as charging for too many of the synergistic feats/abilities? Action Surge is right there in the ECS, and for rogues, scouts, etc. that means you can get the move + full attack without losing bonus dice progression (by dipping in barbarian) at the cost of one feat, available at level 6, without spending expansion slots. Heroic Spirit (which can easily be retooled in at the bump) will give you another 1-2 uses of the feat as well. It takes AP to use, but only when you actually need to move 10+' and full attack in the same round. So.. is a 1st level only (meaning you also can't retool it in, but would have to make a new character unless you happened to already be a barbarian that unlocked alternate barbarian class features) 'easier' to acquire than a core feat? or is it better enough that the camparison is irrelevant?
Timlagor 07-12-07, 07:59 PM	Action surge is overpowered too in XenDrik imo ..it's powerful anyway but we get more APs in XE..and the adventures don't get longer as we go up -normally you need more APs because it takes longer to level up at higher levels (I think -certainly LG works that way but I suppose xp allocation will vary between GMs). I've yet to use up all my APs but that's because I tend to conserve them. I could burn through them in no time with Action Surge ..though you can still only use one per round I believe.
Madfox11 07-16-07, 07:49 AM	Actually, if you follow the core rules the amount of sessions you require to level remains roughly the same. At really low levels (level 1 to 3) it is somewhat quicker, and at higher levels it slows down a bit, but the differences are really not that big. The biggest difference is that in a home campaign you have the same amount of action points for roughly 5 sessions (the core rules assume 5 sessions for 1 level). In Xen'drik you have them for each adventure. Most of the time the difference is not that significant, but it certainly increases the power of the artificer a lot.
Marcus Majarra 07-16-07, 05:11 PM	Actually, with campaign cards, action points become even more accessible in Xen'drik Expeditions than in normal campaigns. For example, let's say I have an 8th-level character. I am guaranteed 5 AP per adventure, but if I have 8 campaign cards, I have 8 AP per adventure, which is just 1 AP shy of what a character would receive at level 8, in a normal campaign. And these refresh every adventure. Personally, I very much enjoy the action point mechanic. It more than one MoH and Xen'drik mod, it made for very cinematic effects in my groups.