Post/Author/DateTime	Post
andinel 12-04-06, 12:11 AM	Just wondering, with the new rules for expansion slots and core classes... 1. Can you pick a class for your expansion item at 1st level (I.E. psion) and then take it as your 1st level class? 2. Can any character of any race become any class (I.E. a non-Kalashtar becoming a psion or psychic warrior)? Thanks in advance.
Skerrit 12-04-06, 09:15 AM	1. Can you pick a class for your expansion item at 1st level (I.E. psion) and then take it as your 1st level class? 2. Can any character of any race become any class (I.E. a non-Kalashtar becoming a psion or psychic warrior)? 1. Yes 2. I can't think of any base class that bans a specific race off the top of my head, so assume that is and stays true as new product comes out, the answer is also yes.
Lightblade 12-04-06, 01:32 PM	Just keep in mind that non card-carrying psions are a little hosed in that they must put each psionic feat they want to take on their Expansion list. That's one of the reasons i'm sticking with my Changling Rogue/Psion. (as a bonus, since it's an expansion card, i'm only burning 1 AP to get access to a class, 2 racial sub classes, a prestige class, and all the psionic feats). (And by card carrying, i meant people with expansion cards, such as People of Mind, Matter, Radience, Uncommon Changling, A 'Forged Apart, or Ancient Blood of Xen'drik.)
Lightblade 12-04-06, 01:41 PM	Also, if you get into Psion by using the expansion list at first level, it looks like you lose out on the bonus feat, since there is no valid selection to make. If you multiclass, you could spend your first two expansion slots on a psion feat, take psion at third level and take the unlocked feat as your bonus feat. Soulknives and wilders do not have this problem. Psychic warriors would need to take fighter bonus feats instead of psychic warrior feats for their first few levels.
Xandore 12-04-06, 05:59 PM	Great, so this means if I understand correctly that I can have my Cabal of Shadows warlock take incarnate at level 2. I would need to use up my level 2 thru 4 expansion slots for the class. This is correct?
Skerrit 12-04-06, 11:15 PM	Yes
andinel 12-05-06, 12:03 AM	What about spells/powers? When you unlock a class, do you unlock all spells/powers on its class list?
Skerrit 12-05-06, 09:13 AM	All those that in the same book as the class, yes. Those printed in other sources, no. So for example if you unlock the Warlock, you also get all the invocations on it's list in Complete Arcane. You do not unlock any of the invocations found in Complete Mage however and would need expansion slots to unlock those.
grahamdrew 12-05-06, 09:27 AM	Also, if you get into Psion by using the expansion list at first level, it looks like you lose out on the bonus feat, since there is no valid selection to make. If you multiclass, you could spend your first two expansion slots on a psion feat, take psion at third level and take the unlocked feat as your bonus feat. Soulknives and wilders do not have this problem. Psychic warriors would need to take fighter bonus feats instead of psychic warrior feats for their first few levels. Hold on there, this seems to be kind of a grey area: Similarly, unlocking any prestige class or base class grants unlimited access to any bonus or automatic feats granted by that class and any spells specifically named on that class’s spell list. For example, you might unlocked the base class Warmage from the Miniature’s Handbook. That class awards the feat Sudden Empower as a bonus feat, and therefore your PC has unlimited access to Sudden Empower because it is from the same source. If your PC is a fighter however, you do not gain unlimited access to all “fighter” feats found in other sources such as Complete Warrior. If you unlock the psion base class, you gain access to all the powers on the psions power list from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the source the class is from. It does not unlock any psionic feats (as none are specifically listed, despite gaining bonus feats), psionic items, or psionic powers found in other sources such as the Complete Psionic. These items would have to be placed upon the PC’s expansion list. It says it doesn't unlock any feats from other sources like Complete Psionic, but it sounds like it MAY unlock the Psionic feats from XPH. I'm not saying it's definite one way or another, but an interpretation from one of the Factionmasters would be appreciated. Andrew Beard
Lightblade 12-05-06, 09:43 AM	Ah, i see the ambiguity. Let me paste the particular sentence again. If you unlock the psion base class, you gain access to all the powers on the psions power list from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the source the class is from. It does not unlock any psionic feats (as none are specifically listed, despite gaining bonus feats), psionic items, or psionic powers found in other sources such as the Complete Psionic I took that to mean "you get powers from XPH, but not feats or items from XPH, or powers from Complete Psionic." You could, however interpret that as "you get no feats, items, or powers from Complete Psionic." I'm no english major, but i feel that the first interpretation is the intent of the ruling. Of course, under this interpretation it kinda stinks to play a straight psion without a campaign card, since a lot of the nice things they can do are feat dependent (overchannel/talented, metapsionic feats, etc). And who knows, maybe it should. The option is there at least, and if players want to take it it's their choice.
grahamdrew 12-05-06, 09:50 AM	Yes, that's the section that seems a little grey to me. Could go either way, and I wouldn't make a call on it either way until I heard from the Factionmasters. That said, I would really like to see a solution to the problem that doesn't cheat a player out of a psion (or any other class, base or prestige) bonus feat because of the unlock system. Andrew Beard
Skerrit 12-05-06, 10:03 AM	The answer is simpler than people make it out to be. If you unlock a class, and that class gives you something as a bonus (spells, feats, etc...) that it specifically lists (such as warmage specifically lists the spells that are on its spell-list) from that book, you unlock it. If it gives some blanket option, such as a bonus feat that could be any psionic or general feat, you only get the PHB feats unless you unlock a psionic feat. If it says this class uses the same spells/powers as a different class from a different book, that's not a specific mention, so you have to unlock them.
Lightblade 12-05-06, 10:19 AM	OK, Greg. That makes sense, and IMO is a good way to handle things. The problem that Andrew and I see, then, for the psion the bonus feats must be Psionic, Metapsionic, or Psionic Item creation. There are no such feats in the PHB, so any such feats must be unlocked. A brand new character starting as a psion with no campaign cards therefore has no valid choices for his first bonus feat.
grahamdrew 12-05-06, 10:19 AM	So if you unlock Psion as a base class before 4th level, you lose your first level bonus feat? Andrew Beard
Lightblade 12-05-06, 10:24 AM	So if you unlock Psion as a base class before 4th level, you lose your first level bonus feat? Andrew Beard Well, third actually (since it's optimal to unlock the feat first) but the question remains the same.
kiddoc 12-05-06, 02:02 PM	OK, Greg. That makes sense, and IMO is a good way to handle things. The problem that Andrew and I see, then, for the psion the bonus feats must be Psionic, Metapsionic, or Psionic Item creation. There are no such feats in the PHB, so any such feats must be unlocked. A brand new character starting as a psion with no campaign cards therefore has no valid choices for his first bonus feat. Right, I don't disagree with you here. It does create some suboptimal situations. If you look at it in the larger context though, those were situations that would have been impossible before. Our intent (and our greatest challenge) was not to make all class combinations effective, but rather to make them minimally playable and open up expansion possibilities for players. That doesn't mean they'll all be good. But at least they'll be possible--some classes are more difficult than others with the way we've set things up--but at least they can be played. We had several goals for this experiment: 1) Make certain, previously impossible, character options available. 2) Open up as many possibilities for play (not power play, or efficient play, or role play, just play) in terms of character choice while still preserving some natural balance. 3) Allow new players or players without campaign cards to have access to more character options. 4) Augment campaign cards (Some campaign cards got much more playable because of this, because some options were ONLY open with the use of a creation card, now players can forgo some creation cards in favor of other lesser-used creation cards or in favor of general/expansion cards that would have been less likely to show up at lower levels when stack slots are few.). We do recognize, that by attempting to open up new frontiers and by doing things differently than any other RPGA campaign as attempted previously, that we have a work in progress on our hands. We also realize that sacrifices had to be made, both by us, and by the players. Unfortunately, a small number of classes become "less effective" under these rules, but that's a tradeoff we understood and felt that we had to make under the current circumstances. As we progress, these things are always up for review.
tilloch 12-06-06, 12:29 AM	I would hazard to guess that, after the retool, you will see that your efforts will be a rousing success in all of the areas you mentioned. Thanks for your efforts! Tilloch