Crafting and Consummables: what are you doing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crafting and Consummables: what are you doing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Timlagor
09-12-06, 12:14 PM It seems to me that consummables are extremely good value in this campaign. Granted they are much more expensive than we're used to but once you have them they are never actually consumed -and you can cash them back in at full value at any time.

Crafting Feats are slightly odd but I think they are also rather good.

Obviously my Artificer* will be making full use of both these aspects of the Campaign: what do other people think?
Sianger
09-12-06, 08:33 PM ... -and you can cash them back in at full value at any time.

Eh? Where is this from? Don't they get cashed back at half-value like everything else?
Herrbard
09-12-06, 11:31 PM Eh? Where is this from? Don't they get cashed back at half-value like everything else?
In D&D Campaigns (Mark of Heroes, Xen'drik, and the now dead Legacy of the Green Regent) you can retool your equipment between events. That means you can buy whatever you want that is not restricted by the Campaign Standards, up to your EV (equipment value) as posted on the character tracker.

It is not LG, where you sell everything for half, and then can only buy what you found access to (along with a small list of core stuff).
Timlagor
09-13-06, 12:15 AM It's not exactly selling back.. you just don't lose anything from your EV for future modules when you use consumables and you can choose not to buy them next time.
Sianger
09-13-06, 08:16 PM Ah... so you basically start off from raw EV before every adventure and can buy whatever you want with it (subject of course to restrictions / locking), regardless of what equipment you had before?

Does this cut both ways? Say you have gained a reward which gives you a one-off discount on, for instance, a suit of magical armour. If you decide to "upgrade" your suit of armour (e.g. +2 to +3) do you pay just for the upgrade from your EV, or do you have to "cash in" your whole suit of discounted armour and buy the better one without the discount?
Timlagor
09-14-06, 12:17 AM That is my understanding of the rules though you buy your equipment at each Event rather than each adventure -thus you use the same equipment (+any Event Treasure gained) for all the Sessions (modules/adventures) you play at a single Convention/Gameday/Home Event.

There isn't any real "cashing in" since you buy your full equipment at the beginning of every Event. If you do get a Story Object granting cheap armour (and I doubt such things will exist) then it will presumably specify what it gives you. I imagine that if it's something that can be further enhanced and you have Unlocked another enhancement then you would be able to add that enhancement.

I don't know if +2 and +3 are seperate rules items for unlocking and if so whether you have to unlock +2 before +3 but it's going to be a while before anyone has to worry about it I should think.
pedr
09-14-06, 02:25 AM Just to clarify one thing: magic items (including weapon and armour enhancements) from the DMG are unlocked already.* The only limitations on them are that you cannot purchase an item which costs more than your level-dependent GP limit. Only items from the expanded sources (and feats from the MM) have to be unlocked. For instance, at 3rd level you can buy a +1 breastplate (1,350gp <= the 3rd level GP limit of 1,350gp) but not +1 full plate (2,650gp > 1,350gp).

[* unless they are Restricted by the CS. It's probably worth following the MoH Restricted list for now, so no Demon Armour for instance.]
Sianger
09-14-06, 05:08 AM ...If you do get a Story Object granting cheap armour (and I doubt such things will exist) then it will presumably specify what it gives you. I imagine that if it's something that can be further enhanced and you have Unlocked another enhancement then you would be able to add that enhancement.

Actually, something very much like that does exist, and I have it. That's why I'm asking. Some of my fellow CoS players should know what I'm talking about, heh heh...

Thing is, I'm wondering if getting an item cheaper (using this Story Object) at lower level means I'll have to pay full price for what is effectively an "upgraded" version of it at higher level.
Timlagor
09-14-06, 05:20 AM Ah well in that case I can't say with any certainty but I'd imagine that the Story Object never gets 'used up' so if it's applicable to the enhanced stuff later you'll be able to use it for that (regardless of any use you may make now) ...the story object may even get improved if you're really lucky.

So are people planning to use a lot of Consummables? Seems to me that Craft Wand is particularly good value...
ucfjedi
09-14-06, 02:49 PM Don't let the fools fromm the other factions know of our hidden weapons. Many of us have to face them in mortal combat during certain adventures. We must keep our hidden advantage a secret in case we must defend ourselves against the attacks of the meak. (BTW that cert totally kicks ass)
Sianger
09-14-06, 09:19 PM Don't let the fools fromm the other factions know of our hidden weapons. Many of us have to face them in mortal combat during certain adventures. We must keep our hidden advantage a secret in case we must defend ourselves against the attacks of the meak. (BTW that cert totally kicks ass)

Hee hee... Grapeshot likes killing fleshies...
Oops. Did I just say that?

[Yeah, it really does.]
ajpopp
09-14-06, 09:55 PM I don't think crafting wands is a good value. According to page 7 of the CS, you have to create a wand with 50 charges, at 3 times the cost (or 2 times the cost if you have Extraordinary Artisan). The charges reset every adventure, so you're never going to use 50...meaning you have to spend at least twice the money for an item that is effectively not consumable.

On the other hand, with no creation feats you could pay the standard cost for a wand though it will have only 10 charges. You're generally not going to need to use more than 10 charges from a wand in one adventure.

The real advantage is Craft Wondrous Item and Extraordinary Artisan, which I suppose is awesome for an artificer, who can create any item. Even for a wizard though, it's pretty potent, especially since they've defined Campaign Cost as the cost to create an item for a character with the creation feats, meaning you can make some good items even with the GP limit by level.

Al
Timlagor
09-15-06, 01:26 AM My theory is that the main reason people don't use up 50 charges is that they don't want to throw their money away. If it doesn't cost anything in the long term though...
ucfjedi
09-15-06, 02:04 AM The wand worth 50 charges is a wand of cure light wounds...its good to heal up between combat encounters with burning a ton of charges and getting exactly the amount of healing you need. Example: The party has just had a combat and the party's druid had 6 points on damage done to him the wizard 13 and the fighter 32....wasting one out of 10 charges to heal the druid with a expensive cure moderate wounds wand sucks; while spending alot of charges with it when you roll low does too...but being below max HP is worse...The wand of cure light wounds i good because it is really cheap 1500 GP with ext art feat. 50 charges and you can burn through them to get exactly the amount of healing you want. If you go say with the cure mod at 10 charges with ext art you pay 750 base x 2 spell level x 3 caster level x .5 from feats and taken only 10 charges = 2,250 gp for a total average healing of (9 average of dice + 3 caster level) x 10 = 270 HP....now a cure light with 50 charges costs 750 base x 1 spell level x 1 caster level x 2 from feats and taken at 50 charges= 1500 gp for a total average healing of (4.5 average of dice + 1 caster level) x 50 = 275

So now we have this:
wand of cure mod at 2,250 gp = 270 HP
wand of cure light at 1,500 gp = 275 HP

I show you all this for 1 reason for 3750 GP you get combat healing with a great amount of healing inbetween encounters rather than burning charges out of a 10 charge cure mod wand wasting healing. The money you save will then add back to your EV by only buying one cure mod wand and one cure mod wand.

If anyone has any questions about this let me know....
ajpopp
09-15-06, 08:07 AM Ah, I hadn't been thinking about wands of curing. Mainly because it's rare to see a cleric with Craft Wand and Extraordinary Artisan. But I entirely agree that the wand of Cure Moderate for combat and the wand of Cure Light for post-combat is a great combo.

I play(ed) a wizard in Mark of Heroes and so that's the way I think about item creation. For instance, using XE rules:
1. Wand of Bear's Endurance, 10 charges (no creation feats) = 4,500 gp
2. Wand of Bear's Endurance, 50 charges (Craft Wand and Extr. Artisan) = 9,000 gp
3. Amulet of CON +4 (Craft Wondrous and Extr. Artisan) = 8,000 gp

The advantage of the wand with 50 charges is that you can buff all your party members. But the amulet is always active--great for surprise rounds, traps, not using an action in combat. I know which I'd pick.

Even a wand of Lesser Acid Orb I've never used even the 10 charges in it...I just couldn't pay double the cost for 50 charges. But the healing, that would be mighty useful.
ucfjedi
09-15-06, 02:16 PM Yeah well think of this too.....say you have the icf to make the magic item and the ext art feat then you craft wands at say half price for 10 charges. You have a wand of some 5d6 damage attack (one of the first level variety). You then spend 750 base x 1 spell level x 5 caster (for the 5d6) X .5 for feats/campaign standerds = 1875 GP. Now when are you really gonna need 50 5d6 attacks against a single enemy or even 50 5d6 fireballs? The crafting for only 10 charges is most effective with combat spells. The only spell i found worth crafting at 50 in a wand is cure light wounds and false life(under the thinking your gonna use it on the whole party a few times per day to cast at first level). What I have been delving into recently is running the numbers for the Artifacer in this new anti artifcer environment. I will have some ideas on useful ways to "Un Nerf" him soon.
Lightblade
09-15-06, 02:42 PM A 7th level artificer with metamagic feats can burn wand charges quite quickly. The same goes for dual wand wielders.
ucfjedi
09-15-06, 03:22 PM Yes this is true. Now with the art feat you can craft for 10 charges at 1/4 the cost of a 50 charge wand. Now this does seem to be a waste of spending 25% of the cost but only getting 20% of the charges, but what you lose in charges you make up for in versitility. If you are burning through alot of charges I have found the best way for the blastificer is to have one main 50 charge wand to use in his off hand. The main hand using a "utility wand". Basically my stradegy comes from 2 thoughts 1) that your main hand uses less charges and is therefor more efficient 2) It is probably the more important and specific (to the weaknesses of your opponent) so you therefor want to see how that attack goes before you fire your second wand or take a move action (or something similar). In the end you have 5 wand; one wand at 50 charges and 4 at 10 charges. At 7th level i think this is more than likely the most you can afford unless you are using level 1 caster 1 wands....
ajpopp
09-15-06, 03:35 PM Yeah well think of this too.....say you have the icf to make the magic item and the ext art feat then you craft wands at say half price for 10 charges.

But according to the Campaign Standards, you can't craft a wand with 10 charges. That's the whole problem. If you could, then Craft Wand would be very useful. But since you have to craft with 50 charges, you have to make it worth it. Crafting a wand with 50 charges of magic missile, then using only 5 or 10 charges is an enormous waste of money.

I've never really been into the artificer, but I see the point--applying metamagic feats by using more charges would certainly use up charges quickly. I've never heard of anyone actually playing a dual wand wielder--have you done that? That would be cool! And yeah, that off-hand wand would need more than 10 charges.
ucfjedi
09-15-06, 04:27 PM Yeah i just looked at that...i never noticed it said (but not craft). That is so stupid. You can get a wand with 10 charges at normal cost or with feats get the wand with max charges for double cost. This makes no sense at all. Whoever they had decide many of the things in this campaigne didn't think of some of the most obvious things.
bronzmonkee
09-15-06, 11:56 PM I've never really been into the artificer, but I see the point--applying metamagic feats by using more charges would certainly use up charges quickly. I've never heard of anyone actually playing a dual wand wielder--have you done that? That would be cool! And yeah, that off-hand wand would need more than 10 charges.

My Crimson Codex character, Rennie Two-Wand, will be a two wand wielding gunslinger. Between artificer spell trigger metamagic, Dual Wand Wielding and Reckless Wand Wielder, he will need four full wands just to make it through the module :D

Burn baby, burn!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timlagor 09-12-06, 12:14 PM	It seems to me that consummables are extremely good value in this campaign. Granted they are much more expensive than we're used to but once you have them they are never actually consumed -and you can cash them back in at full value at any time. Crafting Feats are slightly odd but I think they are also rather good. Obviously my Artificer* will be making full use of both these aspects of the Campaign: what do other people think?
Sianger 09-12-06, 08:33 PM	... -and you can cash them back in at full value at any time. Eh? Where is this from? Don't they get cashed back at half-value like everything else?
Herrbard 09-12-06, 11:31 PM	Eh? Where is this from? Don't they get cashed back at half-value like everything else? In D&D Campaigns (Mark of Heroes, Xen'drik, and the now dead Legacy of the Green Regent) you can retool your equipment between events. That means you can buy whatever you want that is not restricted by the Campaign Standards, up to your EV (equipment value) as posted on the character tracker. It is not LG, where you sell everything for half, and then can only buy what you found access to (along with a small list of core stuff).
Timlagor 09-13-06, 12:15 AM	It's not exactly selling back.. you just don't lose anything from your EV for future modules when you use consumables and you can choose not to buy them next time.
Sianger 09-13-06, 08:16 PM	Ah... so you basically start off from raw EV before every adventure and can buy whatever you want with it (subject of course to restrictions / locking), regardless of what equipment you had before? Does this cut both ways? Say you have gained a reward which gives you a one-off discount on, for instance, a suit of magical armour. If you decide to "upgrade" your suit of armour (e.g. +2 to +3) do you pay just for the upgrade from your EV, or do you have to "cash in" your whole suit of discounted armour and buy the better one without the discount?
Timlagor 09-14-06, 12:17 AM	That is my understanding of the rules though you buy your equipment at each Event rather than each adventure -thus you use the same equipment (+any Event Treasure gained) for all the Sessions (modules/adventures) you play at a single Convention/Gameday/Home Event. There isn't any real "cashing in" since you buy your full equipment at the beginning of every Event. If you do get a Story Object granting cheap armour (and I doubt such things will exist) then it will presumably specify what it gives you. I imagine that if it's something that can be further enhanced and you have Unlocked another enhancement then you would be able to add that enhancement. I don't know if +2 and +3 are seperate rules items for unlocking and if so whether you have to unlock +2 before +3 but it's going to be a while before anyone has to worry about it I should think.
pedr 09-14-06, 02:25 AM	Just to clarify one thing: magic items (including weapon and armour enhancements) from the DMG are unlocked already.* The only limitations on them are that you cannot purchase an item which costs more than your level-dependent GP limit. Only items from the expanded sources (and feats from the MM) have to be unlocked. For instance, at 3rd level you can buy a +1 breastplate (1,350gp <= the 3rd level GP limit of 1,350gp) but not +1 full plate (2,650gp > 1,350gp). [* unless they are Restricted by the CS. It's probably worth following the MoH Restricted list for now, so no Demon Armour for instance.]
Sianger 09-14-06, 05:08 AM	...If you do get a Story Object granting cheap armour (and I doubt such things will exist) then it will presumably specify what it gives you. I imagine that if it's something that can be further enhanced and you have Unlocked another enhancement then you would be able to add that enhancement. Actually, something very much like that does exist, and I have it. That's why I'm asking. Some of my fellow CoS players should know what I'm talking about, heh heh... Thing is, I'm wondering if getting an item cheaper (using this Story Object) at lower level means I'll have to pay full price for what is effectively an "upgraded" version of it at higher level.
Timlagor 09-14-06, 05:20 AM	Ah well in that case I can't say with any certainty but I'd imagine that the Story Object never gets 'used up' so if it's applicable to the enhanced stuff later you'll be able to use it for that (regardless of any use you may make now) ...the story object may even get improved if you're really lucky. So are people planning to use a lot of Consummables? Seems to me that Craft Wand is particularly good value...
ucfjedi 09-14-06, 02:49 PM	Don't let the fools fromm the other factions know of our hidden weapons. Many of us have to face them in mortal combat during certain adventures. We must keep our hidden advantage a secret in case we must defend ourselves against the attacks of the meak. (BTW that cert totally kicks ass)
Sianger 09-14-06, 09:19 PM	Don't let the fools fromm the other factions know of our hidden weapons. Many of us have to face them in mortal combat during certain adventures. We must keep our hidden advantage a secret in case we must defend ourselves against the attacks of the meak. (BTW that cert totally kicks ass) Hee hee... Grapeshot likes killing fleshies... Oops. Did I just say that? [Yeah, it really does.]
ajpopp 09-14-06, 09:55 PM	I don't think crafting wands is a good value. According to page 7 of the CS, you have to create a wand with 50 charges, at 3 times the cost (or 2 times the cost if you have Extraordinary Artisan). The charges reset every adventure, so you're never going to use 50...meaning you have to spend at least twice the money for an item that is effectively not consumable. On the other hand, with no creation feats you could pay the standard cost for a wand though it will have only 10 charges. You're generally not going to need to use more than 10 charges from a wand in one adventure. The real advantage is Craft Wondrous Item and Extraordinary Artisan, which I suppose is awesome for an artificer, who can create any item. Even for a wizard though, it's pretty potent, especially since they've defined Campaign Cost as the cost to create an item for a character with the creation feats, meaning you can make some good items even with the GP limit by level. Al
Timlagor 09-15-06, 01:26 AM	My theory is that the main reason people don't use up 50 charges is that they don't want to throw their money away. If it doesn't cost anything in the long term though...
ucfjedi 09-15-06, 02:04 AM	The wand worth 50 charges is a wand of cure light wounds...its good to heal up between combat encounters with burning a ton of charges and getting exactly the amount of healing you need. Example: The party has just had a combat and the party's druid had 6 points on damage done to him the wizard 13 and the fighter 32....wasting one out of 10 charges to heal the druid with a expensive cure moderate wounds wand sucks; while spending alot of charges with it when you roll low does too...but being below max HP is worse...The wand of cure light wounds i good because it is really cheap 1500 GP with ext art feat. 50 charges and you can burn through them to get exactly the amount of healing you want. If you go say with the cure mod at 10 charges with ext art you pay 750 base x 2 spell level x 3 caster level x .5 from feats and taken only 10 charges = 2,250 gp for a total average healing of (9 average of dice + 3 caster level) x 10 = 270 HP....now a cure light with 50 charges costs 750 base x 1 spell level x 1 caster level x 2 from feats and taken at 50 charges= 1500 gp for a total average healing of (4.5 average of dice + 1 caster level) x 50 = 275 So now we have this: wand of cure mod at 2,250 gp = 270 HP wand of cure light at 1,500 gp = 275 HP I show you all this for 1 reason for 3750 GP you get combat healing with a great amount of healing inbetween encounters rather than burning charges out of a 10 charge cure mod wand wasting healing. The money you save will then add back to your EV by only buying one cure mod wand and one cure mod wand. If anyone has any questions about this let me know....
ajpopp 09-15-06, 08:07 AM	Ah, I hadn't been thinking about wands of curing. Mainly because it's rare to see a cleric with Craft Wand and Extraordinary Artisan. But I entirely agree that the wand of Cure Moderate for combat and the wand of Cure Light for post-combat is a great combo. I play(ed) a wizard in Mark of Heroes and so that's the way I think about item creation. For instance, using XE rules: 1. Wand of Bear's Endurance, 10 charges (no creation feats) = 4,500 gp 2. Wand of Bear's Endurance, 50 charges (Craft Wand and Extr. Artisan) = 9,000 gp 3. Amulet of CON +4 (Craft Wondrous and Extr. Artisan) = 8,000 gp The advantage of the wand with 50 charges is that you can buff all your party members. But the amulet is always active--great for surprise rounds, traps, not using an action in combat. I know which I'd pick. Even a wand of Lesser Acid Orb I've never used even the 10 charges in it...I just couldn't pay double the cost for 50 charges. But the healing, that would be mighty useful.
ucfjedi 09-15-06, 02:16 PM	Yeah well think of this too.....say you have the icf to make the magic item and the ext art feat then you craft wands at say half price for 10 charges. You have a wand of some 5d6 damage attack (one of the first level variety). You then spend 750 base x 1 spell level x 5 caster (for the 5d6) X .5 for feats/campaign standerds = 1875 GP. Now when are you really gonna need 50 5d6 attacks against a single enemy or even 50 5d6 fireballs? The crafting for only 10 charges is most effective with combat spells. The only spell i found worth crafting at 50 in a wand is cure light wounds and false life(under the thinking your gonna use it on the whole party a few times per day to cast at first level). What I have been delving into recently is running the numbers for the Artifacer in this new anti artifcer environment. I will have some ideas on useful ways to "Un Nerf" him soon.
Lightblade 09-15-06, 02:42 PM	A 7th level artificer with metamagic feats can burn wand charges quite quickly. The same goes for dual wand wielders.
ucfjedi 09-15-06, 03:22 PM	Yes this is true. Now with the art feat you can craft for 10 charges at 1/4 the cost of a 50 charge wand. Now this does seem to be a waste of spending 25% of the cost but only getting 20% of the charges, but what you lose in charges you make up for in versitility. If you are burning through alot of charges I have found the best way for the blastificer is to have one main 50 charge wand to use in his off hand. The main hand using a "utility wand". Basically my stradegy comes from 2 thoughts 1) that your main hand uses less charges and is therefor more efficient 2) It is probably the more important and specific (to the weaknesses of your opponent) so you therefor want to see how that attack goes before you fire your second wand or take a move action (or something similar). In the end you have 5 wand; one wand at 50 charges and 4 at 10 charges. At 7th level i think this is more than likely the most you can afford unless you are using level 1 caster 1 wands....
ajpopp 09-15-06, 03:35 PM	Yeah well think of this too.....say you have the icf to make the magic item and the ext art feat then you craft wands at say half price for 10 charges. But according to the Campaign Standards, you can't craft a wand with 10 charges. That's the whole problem. If you could, then Craft Wand would be very useful. But since you have to craft with 50 charges, you have to make it worth it. Crafting a wand with 50 charges of magic missile, then using only 5 or 10 charges is an enormous waste of money. I've never really been into the artificer, but I see the point--applying metamagic feats by using more charges would certainly use up charges quickly. I've never heard of anyone actually playing a dual wand wielder--have you done that? That would be cool! And yeah, that off-hand wand would need more than 10 charges.
ucfjedi 09-15-06, 04:27 PM	Yeah i just looked at that...i never noticed it said (but not craft). That is so stupid. You can get a wand with 10 charges at normal cost or with feats get the wand with max charges for double cost. This makes no sense at all. Whoever they had decide many of the things in this campaigne didn't think of some of the most obvious things.
bronzmonkee 09-15-06, 11:56 PM	I've never really been into the artificer, but I see the point--applying metamagic feats by using more charges would certainly use up charges quickly. I've never heard of anyone actually playing a dual wand wielder--have you done that? That would be cool! And yeah, that off-hand wand would need more than 10 charges. My Crimson Codex character, Rennie Two-Wand, will be a two wand wielding gunslinger. Between artificer spell trigger metamagic, Dual Wand Wielding and Reckless Wand Wielder, he will need four full wands just to make it through the module :D Burn baby, burn!