Figuring Out Character Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Figuring Out Character Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
eloiwyn
07-16-06, 11:36 PM I've been playing Living Greyhawk, but this is my first foray into Eberron and Xen'drik Expeditions, and I am having trouble figuring out some aspects of character creation, mostly concerning the relationship between action points, expanion items, and stack slots:

1. I have a card that lets me play a Catfolk, that takes up to "stack slots". It is my uderstanding that we have 5 stack slots at 1st level? Does filling these stack slots affect action points or expansions, or can I fill the remaining 3 slots with whatever cards look interesting and still pick an expansion item?

2. I understand that we get 1 "expansion item" at 1st level? Taking a consumable item package costs 2 expansion slots, so that means no additional expansions until 3rd level? Is there any reason NOT to do this?

3. From what I can figure, the only way to have magic items at 1st level is to either have the scribe scroll feat or take a consumable item package (I am assuming that taking a consumable item package enables you to buy items in that package right off the bat, assuming you have the gold). Is this true for the entire 1st level, or do you get opportunities once you start play to pick up scrolls and potions and such? If you use your first 2 expansion slots on a consumable items package, are those the only magic items you can have until 3rd level? The sourcebook seems to intimate that pretty much all magic items are "locked" and need to be put on your expanion list to be unlocked, so does that mean you can never have more than one magic item per level?

4. Xen'drik stuff doesn't say much about action points, but I see in Mark of Heroes something about having 3 action points per adventure. Is this true for Xen'drik?

--Eloiwyn
Marcus Majarra
07-17-06, 02:54 AM 1) Stack slots refer to your action point pool. First-level characters have three action points, and four stack slots. In theory, they are able to have up to four action points. How is this possible? Simple. Action points can be represented by campaign cards. Except for creation cards, campaign cards represent one action point.

For example, a character who has four general cards has a pool of four action points to begin with. In this scenario, every action point the character has is represented by a campaign card. When this player decides to spend an action point, he must select one of the aforementioned cards and decide whether he wants to use the effect listed in the card or to make a normal use of an action point (as per the Eberron Campaign Setting). When this decision is made, the action point's effect takes place and the card is sent to the discard pile.

If the character had only two general cards, he would have only three action points, with two of them being represented by the campaign cards. When the player spends an action point, he could decide to use the cardless one or to spend one of the cards.

Action points represented by creation and expansion cards are usually spent before play even begins, to be entitled to the cards' effects. For example, to play a catfolk character, you must spend the two action points associated with the Stalker of Skyfall creation card before play starts. If the player doesn't have any other campaign cards for that character, that first-level catfolk has but one remaining action point to spend in play.

Keep in mind that creation cards always are represented by more than one action point (since they require more stack slots).

2) There are five reasons not to take a consumable item package as your first-level expansion:

• You want to take an alternate class feature for your starting class
• You want to take racial substitution levels for your starting class
• You want to take a regular expansion option before level 3 (such as unlocking a nonrestricted spell, mundane or magical item, or feat)
• You'll be needing 20 individual expansions

If you're not inclined to choose any of these options, then by all means one should select a consumable item package.

3) Magic items, as a general rule, are limited items. This means that you can only purchase them as long as they are unlocked and their price is not higher than your GP limit (based on level). The scribe scroll feat (as well as consumable item packages) make certain magic items (such as 0-1st level scrolls and every item in the package) unlimited items. Unlimited items are items that you can purchase as long as you have the necessary cash for it. Certain unlimited items might be more expensive than some limited items. For example, a full plate (unlimited) costs far more than a potion of cure light wounds (limited).

This applies to purchasing items only. Items found during an adventure are fully accessible, but keep in mind that you don't get to keep them after the adventure is done.

4) Xen'drik Expeditions follows the same mechanics for action points as Mark of Heroes, with the following exceptions:

• Creation cards cost more than 1 stack slot/action point
• XE cards have a number in the lower-right corner that you can substitute for the die roll result of an action point.
Kelvane
07-17-06, 11:29 PM With the action point value on the Xen'drix Expeditions cards you can have creation and item cards in your stack as placeholders for action point maximums.
dalordetrius
07-19-06, 11:48 PM Hello! I've been puzzled a little over character creation for this as well. Thank you, for your clarifications, as I've been wondering about this very topic.

I was also considering playing an Artificer, and I was a little confused on one point. Do you need to unlock magic items for which you have the prerequisites for item creation? For example, if I am a Level-3 Artificer with 6 ranks in Use Magic Device (and thus CL 3), can I purchase/"create" a Cure Moderate Wounds potion, or do I first have to unlock the item through my Expansion List first?

I hope Version 1 of the Xen'drik Campaign Standards comes out soon. Thanks in advance for your help!
Marcus Majarra
07-20-06, 12:25 AM Hello! I've been puzzled a little over character creation for this as well. Thank you, for your clarifications, as I've been wondering about this very topic.

I was also considering playing an Artificer, and I was a little confused on one point. Do you need to unlock magic items for which you have the prerequisites for item creation? For example, if I am a Level-3 Artificer with 6 ranks in Use Magic Device (and thus CL 3), can I purchase/"create" a Cure Moderate Wounds potion, or do I first have to unlock the item through my Expansion List first?

I hope Version 1 of the Xen'drik Campaign Standards comes out soon. Thanks in advance for your help!
Most magic items in the DMG are limited items, which means they become available to your character the moment their price is below your GP limit (which is based on level). If the rule item you wanted was found in a campaign supplement, you would need to unlock the appropriate rule item. For example, if you unlocked the Conviction spell from the Spell Compendium for your Artificer, you could start making/purchasing potions, scrolls, and wands of conviction.
Lightblade
07-20-06, 10:37 AM 2) There are five reasons not to take a consumable item package as your first-level expansion:

• You want to take an alternate class feature for your starting class
• You want to take racial substitution levels for your starting class
• You want to take a regular expansion option before level 3 (such as unlocking a nonrestricted spell, mundane or magical item, or feat)
• You'll be needing 20 individual expansions

If you're not inclined to choose any of these options, then by all means one should select a consumable item package.

You only mentioned 4, so i think you had one in mind but forgot it. Anyway, i've got three to add, in a rough order of likelihood:

You do not have the needed 12 Charisma
You want to take a non PHB/ECS cleric domain
You are a psionicist that wants to play a Complete Psionic base class
jpryorsd
07-28-06, 02:39 AM I have a follow-on question. I too have the Catfolk card. It takes 2 slots. My question is about advancing to the next level. I'm trying to see if I understand it correctly. This is how I think it works: I pick a 1st level (in my case, Rogue). I don't get another level until I have 3001 xp, at which time I can take my next level. I have skipped one level of skill points. That part seems fairly clear to me. The first question is, do I get a feat at that new level? The wording seems to say that I am, in fact a 3rd level character, but one level is taken up by race which implies to me that I would get a feat. The next question is really a variant on the first one: Am I a 2nd or 3rd level character? This matters for spells like Sleep or Color Spray that have different effects according to which level you are or are relative to people around you. It seems to me I would be a 3rd, but I wanted to check whether I understand correctly. If I have to wait to 6000 xp to get my second feat, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my choices.

Thanks.

John
Japangirl
07-28-06, 02:47 AM For sleep or color spray, you are effectively only 2nd level, because you only have two hit dice. Same for feats: you get a feat every third hit die, not every third level. That's why level adjustments are so nasty. You become a second level character at 3000 xp, and a 3rd level character at 6000 for the purpose of feats, spells, and skills.
Harliquinn
07-28-06, 08:22 AM As stated above, you are only considered 2nd level for the purposed of spells affecting you. This is the downside to having very powerful stat adjustments, movement and armor class at 1st level. In general most of the time, unless you are doing LA buyoff, LA are not worth it.
jpryorsd
07-29-06, 04:30 PM Thanks for your responses. I mean no offense, but I need to ask a question since I'm new to this board and don't know you: Are those replies personal opinions or are they official rulings?

The reason I ask is, I went to the Monster Manual and the DMG to see what they have to say. They have pretty clear guidelines. One interesting thing is that that there are several possible answers to the question of advancing a non-standard race. The answers depend on Class level, Hit Dice, level adjustment, and features. The answer is not the same for all adjustments. On page 172 of the DMG there are several examples given with different results depending on the race. I then went to the creation card Stalker of Skyfall. It says the following: "Catfolk have a +1 Level adjustment and are considered 2nd level characters at the campaign start. At first level, choose a class normally. A catfolk character can't take a second class level until reaching 3rd level, and the race always takes up a level when the character progresses."

To me, it seems pretty clear that you're considered a second level character at the beginning, regardless of hit dice. The offsets for the special abilities gained are the lack of a second hit die and the lack of 2nd level skill points and the lack of opportunity to take a second class level and gain its benefits at 1001 xp, and those lacks continue for 2 full levels, until you gain xp to hit the next (3rd) level. I believe then, that spells that have different effects depending on level would treat this starting character as a second level target. Similarly, it seems to me that if you are second level, upon gaining 3001 xp you become a 3rd level character and should be eligible for a feat.

So, I have to ask again, is it official that catfolk in the Xen'Drik campaign do not get a feat upon hitting 3rd level? If so, I'll accept the ruling and that's the end of the discussion. I mean no offense, but my reading leads me to a different conclusion, and I'm trying to clarify the situation.

John
jeffpicard
07-29-06, 08:07 PM the creation card for catfolk, and the faction unlocks for other +1 LA races expressly say they override the normal rules on LA and starting gold... but NOT the normal rules on gaining feats etc, thus you only get a feat on your third hit die, an ability score adjustment at your fourth, and so on
so yes you'll be getting those at 4th level and 5th level unless they expressly state otherwise in the campaign docs

oh, and you level AT 1000 and 3000 (etc) according to the phb, not that there's much difference, I don't think I've r ever seen anyone hit level Exactly on the dot... and for this campaign it's less so since you don't know your xp total
delroland
07-29-06, 09:01 PM To me, it seems pretty clear that you're considered a second level character at the beginning, regardless of hit dice. The offsets for the special abilities gained are the lack of a second hit die and the lack of 2nd level skill points and the lack of opportunity to take a second class level and gain its benefits at 1001 xp, and those lacks continue for 2 full levels, until you gain xp to hit the next (3rd) level. I believe then, that spells that have different effects depending on level would treat this starting character as a second level target. Similarly, it seems to me that if you are second level, upon gaining 3001 xp you become a 3rd level character and should be eligible for a feat.This is a common misconception. If you want a specific example, look at the gnoll in the monster level. It is 2HD, and has a level adjustment of +1, thus making it third level, and yet it only has one feat and the skill points of a second-level humanoid.

Feats, skills, saving throws, BAB, and all class abilities are determined by your hit dice. So do determining the effects of spells on a target. The only function of level adjustment is to adjust character level so that you are on par with fellow party members after considering your superior racial qualities.

No amount of debate on the subject will change this, as this issue has already been argued to death many times before. If you don't want to be a 2HD creature at third level, I would suggest not playing a LA +1 race.
jpryorsd
07-29-06, 10:14 PM Can any of you point me to a reference where it refers to hit dice as being the determining fact? I ask because on p 172 of the DMG it says explicitly "Add a monster's level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature's effective class leel or ECL. ... Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2 Experience and Level Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook..."

So the question becomes, how many Hit Dice does a catfolk PC begin with? It has LA 1 and Class 1. To continue in the DMG, p 173 "For instance, suppose a monster with 1 Hit Die and a +1 level adjustment has two levels of rogue. Its ECL is 4 (2 class levels +1 Hit Die +1 level adjustment." To get to the catfolk example I suggested, take away 1 class level. You are now a starting character with one class level and ECL 3 (the previous example ECL was 4, take away 1 and get 3.) However, the creation card says you start as a second level character. That implies to me that the HD is 0, the LA is 1 and the Class is 1. That gives a contradiction. Either the creation card is wrong and you start as 3rd level or the HD is zero and you start at 2nd level.

Again, is there anyone on list who will respond in an official capacity?

And for those of you whose opinion differs from mine, could you please provide a reference? There may well be an errata that I'm unaware of. But so far, I see nothing that indicates hit dice is the relevant fact.

John
delroland
07-29-06, 10:27 PM Can any of you point me to a reference where it refers to hit dice as being the determining fact? I ask because on p 172 of the DMG it says explicitly "Add a monster's level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature's effective class leel or ECL. ... Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2 Experience and Level Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook..."

And for those of you whose opinion differs from mine, could you please provide a reference? There may well be an errata that I'm unaware of. But so far, I see nothing that indicates hit dice is the relevant fact.

JohnYou just did. "Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2 Experience and Level Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook." When determining spell effects on a target, you use HD or character level. Character level, by the above statement, is not the same thing as ECL. Also, as I said in my previous post, the example of the gnoll in the MM disproves your theory, as do the tiefling, aasimar, bugbear, drow, duergar, and many others. There are your specific examples. So unless you expect us to believe that the authors of the MM made a mistake, your opinion is pretty much shot down.

Trust me, you are beating a dead horse here.
jeffpicard
07-29-06, 10:32 PM Monster Manual Page 290 - 291
Monsters and class levels
the last paragraph in the section (2nd paragraph on 291)
"Feat Acquisition and Ability Score increases: A monster's total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. For example, a 1st-level minotaur barbarian has a total of 7 HD. It has 3 feats (for its 1st, 3rd, and 6th HD). When it gains 2nd level as a barbarian, it becoms a creature of 8 Hit Dice and improves one ability score by 1 point. When it adds its 3rd level of barbarian, the minotaur becomes a creature of 9 Hit Dice and gains its fourth feat."

with an LA of 2 their example minotaur was an ECL 9 at the beginning, got its 8th level ability score at ECL 10 and its 9th level feat at ECL 11.

I admit this is a rather obscure place for the only reference to that to be, but it definatly applies to players with LA as well.
jpryorsd
07-30-06, 01:30 AM I hadn't seen that MM reference. Thanks!

John
The_Jester
07-30-06, 01:52 PM I believe 1 Hit Dice creatures have their racial HD replaced by the class HD upon taking levels. But, lacking the Mini Handbook, I can't say if Catfolk are 1 or 2 HD creatures.

Personally, I hate LA and ECL. It's fine for low LA but high ones are just broken as special abilities are all counted into the LA and not HD so the monsters only gain feats, skills, BAB and the like for leveling up and no additional abilities. They're more like NPC classes than adventurer classes.
And, as all this arguing shows, the rules are far more of a headache than their worth just to play something "new and kewl".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eloiwyn 07-16-06, 11:36 PM	I've been playing Living Greyhawk, but this is my first foray into Eberron and Xen'drik Expeditions, and I am having trouble figuring out some aspects of character creation, mostly concerning the relationship between action points, expanion items, and stack slots: 1. I have a card that lets me play a Catfolk, that takes up to "stack slots". It is my uderstanding that we have 5 stack slots at 1st level? Does filling these stack slots affect action points or expansions, or can I fill the remaining 3 slots with whatever cards look interesting and still pick an expansion item? 2. I understand that we get 1 "expansion item" at 1st level? Taking a consumable item package costs 2 expansion slots, so that means no additional expansions until 3rd level? Is there any reason NOT to do this? 3. From what I can figure, the only way to have magic items at 1st level is to either have the scribe scroll feat or take a consumable item package (I am assuming that taking a consumable item package enables you to buy items in that package right off the bat, assuming you have the gold). Is this true for the entire 1st level, or do you get opportunities once you start play to pick up scrolls and potions and such? If you use your first 2 expansion slots on a consumable items package, are those the only magic items you can have until 3rd level? The sourcebook seems to intimate that pretty much all magic items are "locked" and need to be put on your expanion list to be unlocked, so does that mean you can never have more than one magic item per level? 4. Xen'drik stuff doesn't say much about action points, but I see in Mark of Heroes something about having 3 action points per adventure. Is this true for Xen'drik? --Eloiwyn
Marcus Majarra 07-17-06, 02:54 AM	1) Stack slots refer to your action point pool. First-level characters have three action points, and four stack slots. In theory, they are able to have up to four action points. How is this possible? Simple. Action points can be represented by campaign cards. Except for creation cards, campaign cards represent one action point. For example, a character who has four general cards has a pool of four action points to begin with. In this scenario, every action point the character has is represented by a campaign card. When this player decides to spend an action point, he must select one of the aforementioned cards and decide whether he wants to use the effect listed in the card or to make a normal use of an action point (as per the Eberron Campaign Setting). When this decision is made, the action point's effect takes place and the card is sent to the discard pile. If the character had only two general cards, he would have only three action points, with two of them being represented by the campaign cards. When the player spends an action point, he could decide to use the cardless one or to spend one of the cards. Action points represented by creation and expansion cards are usually spent before play even begins, to be entitled to the cards' effects. For example, to play a catfolk character, you must spend the two action points associated with the Stalker of Skyfall creation card before play starts. If the player doesn't have any other campaign cards for that character, that first-level catfolk has but one remaining action point to spend in play. Keep in mind that creation cards always are represented by more than one action point (since they require more stack slots). 2) There are five reasons not to take a consumable item package as your first-level expansion: • You want to take an alternate class feature for your starting class • You want to take racial substitution levels for your starting class • You want to take a regular expansion option before level 3 (such as unlocking a nonrestricted spell, mundane or magical item, or feat) • You'll be needing 20 individual expansions If you're not inclined to choose any of these options, then by all means one should select a consumable item package. 3) Magic items, as a general rule, are limited items. This means that you can only purchase them as long as they are unlocked and their price is not higher than your GP limit (based on level). The scribe scroll feat (as well as consumable item packages) make certain magic items (such as 0-1st level scrolls and every item in the package) unlimited items. Unlimited items are items that you can purchase as long as you have the necessary cash for it. Certain unlimited items might be more expensive than some limited items. For example, a full plate (unlimited) costs far more than a potion of cure light wounds (limited). This applies to purchasing items only. Items found during an adventure are fully accessible, but keep in mind that you don't get to keep them after the adventure is done. 4) Xen'drik Expeditions follows the same mechanics for action points as Mark of Heroes, with the following exceptions: • Creation cards cost more than 1 stack slot/action point • XE cards have a number in the lower-right corner that you can substitute for the die roll result of an action point.
Kelvane 07-17-06, 11:29 PM	With the action point value on the Xen'drix Expeditions cards you can have creation and item cards in your stack as placeholders for action point maximums.
dalordetrius 07-19-06, 11:48 PM	Hello! I've been puzzled a little over character creation for this as well. Thank you, for your clarifications, as I've been wondering about this very topic. I was also considering playing an Artificer, and I was a little confused on one point. Do you need to unlock magic items for which you have the prerequisites for item creation? For example, if I am a Level-3 Artificer with 6 ranks in Use Magic Device (and thus CL 3), can I purchase/"create" a Cure Moderate Wounds potion, or do I first have to unlock the item through my Expansion List first? I hope Version 1 of the Xen'drik Campaign Standards comes out soon. Thanks in advance for your help!
Marcus Majarra 07-20-06, 12:25 AM	Hello! I've been puzzled a little over character creation for this as well. Thank you, for your clarifications, as I've been wondering about this very topic. I was also considering playing an Artificer, and I was a little confused on one point. Do you need to unlock magic items for which you have the prerequisites for item creation? For example, if I am a Level-3 Artificer with 6 ranks in Use Magic Device (and thus CL 3), can I purchase/"create" a Cure Moderate Wounds potion, or do I first have to unlock the item through my Expansion List first? I hope Version 1 of the Xen'drik Campaign Standards comes out soon. Thanks in advance for your help! Most magic items in the DMG are limited items, which means they become available to your character the moment their price is below your GP limit (which is based on level). If the rule item you wanted was found in a campaign supplement, you would need to unlock the appropriate rule item. For example, if you unlocked the Conviction spell from the Spell Compendium for your Artificer, you could start making/purchasing potions, scrolls, and wands of conviction.
Lightblade 07-20-06, 10:37 AM	2) There are five reasons not to take a consumable item package as your first-level expansion: • You want to take an alternate class feature for your starting class • You want to take racial substitution levels for your starting class • You want to take a regular expansion option before level 3 (such as unlocking a nonrestricted spell, mundane or magical item, or feat) • You'll be needing 20 individual expansions If you're not inclined to choose any of these options, then by all means one should select a consumable item package. You only mentioned 4, so i think you had one in mind but forgot it. Anyway, i've got three to add, in a rough order of likelihood: You do not have the needed 12 Charisma You want to take a non PHB/ECS cleric domain You are a psionicist that wants to play a Complete Psionic base class
jpryorsd 07-28-06, 02:39 AM	I have a follow-on question. I too have the Catfolk card. It takes 2 slots. My question is about advancing to the next level. I'm trying to see if I understand it correctly. This is how I think it works: I pick a 1st level (in my case, Rogue). I don't get another level until I have 3001 xp, at which time I can take my next level. I have skipped one level of skill points. That part seems fairly clear to me. The first question is, do I get a feat at that new level? The wording seems to say that I am, in fact a 3rd level character, but one level is taken up by race which implies to me that I would get a feat. The next question is really a variant on the first one: Am I a 2nd or 3rd level character? This matters for spells like Sleep or Color Spray that have different effects according to which level you are or are relative to people around you. It seems to me I would be a 3rd, but I wanted to check whether I understand correctly. If I have to wait to 6000 xp to get my second feat, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my choices. Thanks. John
Japangirl 07-28-06, 02:47 AM	For sleep or color spray, you are effectively only 2nd level, because you only have two hit dice. Same for feats: you get a feat every third hit die, not every third level. That's why level adjustments are so nasty. You become a second level character at 3000 xp, and a 3rd level character at 6000 for the purpose of feats, spells, and skills.
Harliquinn 07-28-06, 08:22 AM	As stated above, you are only considered 2nd level for the purposed of spells affecting you. This is the downside to having very powerful stat adjustments, movement and armor class at 1st level. In general most of the time, unless you are doing LA buyoff, LA are not worth it.
jpryorsd 07-29-06, 04:30 PM	Thanks for your responses. I mean no offense, but I need to ask a question since I'm new to this board and don't know you: Are those replies personal opinions or are they official rulings? The reason I ask is, I went to the Monster Manual and the DMG to see what they have to say. They have pretty clear guidelines. One interesting thing is that that there are several possible answers to the question of advancing a non-standard race. The answers depend on Class level, Hit Dice, level adjustment, and features. The answer is not the same for all adjustments. On page 172 of the DMG there are several examples given with different results depending on the race. I then went to the creation card Stalker of Skyfall. It says the following: "Catfolk have a +1 Level adjustment and are considered 2nd level characters at the campaign start. At first level, choose a class normally. A catfolk character can't take a second class level until reaching 3rd level, and the race always takes up a level when the character progresses." To me, it seems pretty clear that you're considered a second level character at the beginning, regardless of hit dice. The offsets for the special abilities gained are the lack of a second hit die and the lack of 2nd level skill points and the lack of opportunity to take a second class level and gain its benefits at 1001 xp, and those lacks continue for 2 full levels, until you gain xp to hit the next (3rd) level. I believe then, that spells that have different effects depending on level would treat this starting character as a second level target. Similarly, it seems to me that if you are second level, upon gaining 3001 xp you become a 3rd level character and should be eligible for a feat. So, I have to ask again, is it official that catfolk in the Xen'Drik campaign do not get a feat upon hitting 3rd level? If so, I'll accept the ruling and that's the end of the discussion. I mean no offense, but my reading leads me to a different conclusion, and I'm trying to clarify the situation. John
jeffpicard 07-29-06, 08:07 PM	the creation card for catfolk, and the faction unlocks for other +1 LA races expressly say they override the normal rules on LA and starting gold... but NOT the normal rules on gaining feats etc, thus you only get a feat on your third hit die, an ability score adjustment at your fourth, and so on so yes you'll be getting those at 4th level and 5th level unless they expressly state otherwise in the campaign docs oh, and you level AT 1000 and 3000 (etc) according to the phb, not that there's much difference, I don't think I've r ever seen anyone hit level Exactly on the dot... and for this campaign it's less so since you don't know your xp total
delroland 07-29-06, 09:01 PM	To me, it seems pretty clear that you're considered a second level character at the beginning, regardless of hit dice. The offsets for the special abilities gained are the lack of a second hit die and the lack of 2nd level skill points and the lack of opportunity to take a second class level and gain its benefits at 1001 xp, and those lacks continue for 2 full levels, until you gain xp to hit the next (3rd) level. I believe then, that spells that have different effects depending on level would treat this starting character as a second level target. Similarly, it seems to me that if you are second level, upon gaining 3001 xp you become a 3rd level character and should be eligible for a feat.This is a common misconception. If you want a specific example, look at the gnoll in the monster level. It is 2HD, and has a level adjustment of +1, thus making it third level, and yet it only has one feat and the skill points of a second-level humanoid. Feats, skills, saving throws, BAB, and all class abilities are determined by your hit dice. So do determining the effects of spells on a target. The only function of level adjustment is to adjust character level so that you are on par with fellow party members after considering your superior racial qualities. No amount of debate on the subject will change this, as this issue has already been argued to death many times before. If you don't want to be a 2HD creature at third level, I would suggest not playing a LA +1 race.
jpryorsd 07-29-06, 10:14 PM	Can any of you point me to a reference where it refers to hit dice as being the determining fact? I ask because on p 172 of the DMG it says explicitly "Add a monster's level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature's effective class leel or ECL. ... Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2 Experience and Level Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook..." So the question becomes, how many Hit Dice does a catfolk PC begin with? It has LA 1 and Class 1. To continue in the DMG, p 173 "For instance, suppose a monster with 1 Hit Die and a +1 level adjustment has two levels of rogue. Its ECL is 4 (2 class levels +1 Hit Die +1 level adjustment." To get to the catfolk example I suggested, take away 1 class level. You are now a starting character with one class level and ECL 3 (the previous example ECL was 4, take away 1 and get 3.) However, the creation card says you start as a second level character. That implies to me that the HD is 0, the LA is 1 and the Class is 1. That gives a contradiction. Either the creation card is wrong and you start as 3rd level or the HD is zero and you start at 2nd level. Again, is there anyone on list who will respond in an official capacity? And for those of you whose opinion differs from mine, could you please provide a reference? There may well be an errata that I'm unaware of. But so far, I see nothing that indicates hit dice is the relevant fact. John
delroland 07-29-06, 10:27 PM	Can any of you point me to a reference where it refers to hit dice as being the determining fact? I ask because on p 172 of the DMG it says explicitly "Add a monster's level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature's effective class leel or ECL. ... Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2 Experience and Level Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook..." And for those of you whose opinion differs from mine, could you please provide a reference? There may well be an errata that I'm unaware of. But so far, I see nothing that indicates hit dice is the relevant fact. JohnYou just did. "Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2 Experience and Level Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook." When determining spell effects on a target, you use HD or character level. Character level, by the above statement, is not the same thing as ECL. Also, as I said in my previous post, the example of the gnoll in the MM disproves your theory, as do the tiefling, aasimar, bugbear, drow, duergar, and many others. There are your specific examples. So unless you expect us to believe that the authors of the MM made a mistake, your opinion is pretty much shot down. Trust me, you are beating a dead horse here.
jeffpicard 07-29-06, 10:32 PM	Monster Manual Page 290 - 291 Monsters and class levels the last paragraph in the section (2nd paragraph on 291) "Feat Acquisition and Ability Score increases: A monster's total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. For example, a 1st-level minotaur barbarian has a total of 7 HD. It has 3 feats (for its 1st, 3rd, and 6th HD). When it gains 2nd level as a barbarian, it becoms a creature of 8 Hit Dice and improves one ability score by 1 point. When it adds its 3rd level of barbarian, the minotaur becomes a creature of 9 Hit Dice and gains its fourth feat." with an LA of 2 their example minotaur was an ECL 9 at the beginning, got its 8th level ability score at ECL 10 and its 9th level feat at ECL 11. I admit this is a rather obscure place for the only reference to that to be, but it definatly applies to players with LA as well.
jpryorsd 07-30-06, 01:30 AM	I hadn't seen that MM reference. Thanks! John
The_Jester 07-30-06, 01:52 PM	I believe 1 Hit Dice creatures have their racial HD replaced by the class HD upon taking levels. But, lacking the Mini Handbook, I can't say if Catfolk are 1 or 2 HD creatures. Personally, I hate LA and ECL. It's fine for low LA but high ones are just broken as special abilities are all counted into the LA and not HD so the monsters only gain feats, skills, BAB and the like for leveling up and no additional abilities. They're more like NPC classes than adventurer classes. And, as all this arguing shows, the rules are far more of a headache than their worth just to play something "new and kewl".