Inspirational Boost / Badge of Valor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Inspirational Boost / Badge of Valor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Harliquinn
08-08-07, 09:05 AM Okay I have a semi-rules question/clarification of how this would tend to work in Xen'drik Expeditions (Before I spend an Expansion Slot on the item)

Is there a way to use both the Inspirational Boost spell (Swift action in conjunction with Bardic Music) and the Badge of Valor item (MIC, immediate action). The Badge is a little ambiguous as to when it has to be used for the Bardic Music benefit (it doesn't say as you start bardic music just if you have bardic music and use the item). Could the following scenario work?

Round 1 (PC's Turn): Swift Action - Cast Inspirational Boost
Round 1 (PC's Turn): Standard Action - Start Bardic Music (Normal Bonus +1 from spell)
Round 1 (After PC's Turn): Immediate Action - Use Badge of Valor (Bardic Music increases to Normal Bonus +1 from spell and +1 from Badge)
Round 2: No available Swift Actions

I ask because in the SRD it states: Using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn. It doesn't mention 'rounds' here, but just turn.

Thanks,

John
Marcus Majarra
08-08-07, 12:52 PM The upcoming turn is always your turn on the next round (or your turn on this round, if you haven't reached your initiative count yet).

There's one way to do it:

On your turn:

1) Cast inspirational boost as a swift action.
2) Use the badge of valor as an immediate action. This denies you your swift action during your next turn.
3) Use inspire courage as a standard action.

And voilà! This is a very good combo for any 8th-level bards in the campaign:

• Inspire Courage
• Inspirational Boost
• Badge of Valor
• Song of the Heart

End result: +5 morale bonus on attack/damage/Will saves against fear effects while the bardic music lasts.

Bard > Marshal
Harliquinn
08-08-07, 01:40 PM End result: +5 morale bonus on attack/damage/Will saves against fear effects while the bardic music lasts.

Bard > Marshal

I wasn't sure if you could use both a swift and immediate action on your turn, but if that's allowed, that's the way to do it.

That is the goal I have for my bard, but I've also included a masterwork drum in the mix for +5 attack / +6 damage / +4 Will saves. It's resource intensive but some fights demand it.

Harliquinn
Istaran
08-08-07, 01:52 PM Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

You absolutely cannot do the swift + immediate in one turn.
Harliquinn's original idea was valid in terms of actions being available. I do not know if the item is useful when used like that though. I haven't looked at its text.
Harliquinn
08-08-07, 03:00 PM You absolutely cannot do the swift + immediate in one turn.
Harliquinn's original idea was valid in terms of actions being available. I do not know if the item is useful when used like that though. I haven't looked at its text.

That was my original thinking. Unfortunately the item is a little 'vague' in terms of use with the bardic music. It seemed 'reasonable' to assume that if the item was used with Bardic Music going it would increase it by +1, but then again it could be just a substitute for Inspirational Boost. I just want to get a sense of how most DM's (particularly factionmasters) would rule such a combination before I spend an expansion slot/GP to purchase it (I have enough level 1 slots to Inspirational Boost all my Bardic Musics for a day usually).
Marcus Majarra
08-08-07, 06:43 PM My bad for the mistake.
Shieldhart91
08-08-07, 07:07 PM Why stop with Bard? Take the necessary levels in Marshall and get your attack to go up by another point. It makes all of the difference in the world. You take a hit on spellcasting (oh noes, I'm a bard ;-) ) and I suppose it slows down bardic music- but, it is something worth thinking about.
Shadowed Intent
08-08-07, 07:30 PM Okay I have a semi-rules question/clarification of how this would tend to work in Xen'drik Expeditions (Before I spend an Expansion Slot on the item)

Is there a way to use both the Inspirational Boost spell (Swift action in conjunction with Bardic Music) and the Badge of Valor item (MIC, immediate action). The Badge is a little ambiguous as to when it has to be used for the Bardic Music benefit (it doesn't say as you start bardic music just if you have bardic music and use the item). Could the following scenario work?

Round 1 (PC's Turn): Swift Action - Cast Inspirational Boost
Round 1 (PC's Turn): Standard Action - Start Bardic Music (Normal Bonus +1 from spell)
Round 1 (After PC's Turn): Immediate Action - Use Badge of Valor (Bardic Music increases to Normal Bonus +1 from spell and +1 from Badge)
Round 2: No available Swift Actions

I ask because in the SRD it states: Using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn. It doesn't mention 'rounds' here, but just turn.

Thanks,

John

I believe you have it right.

Overall, I find this a very unusual situation, my first thought was they would not both apply.

As I considered the situation, both the item and spell say they increase the morale bonus of the bardic music. I do not believe there is a stacking issue in this regard, since both say increase and there is no qualifier.

In questionable situations such as these (where spells and items are both in effect, etc), I like to examine the spells required to make the item, in this case, remove fear is the prerequisite spell. While remove fear does grant a morale bonus, which normally would not stack with another morale bonus, the item description specifically states it increases the bardic music ability to inspire courage. Since inspire courage grants a morale bonus, it is obviously the intent of the item to add (or stack) with the normal morale bonus. With the items effect coming from a different spell, and no stacking issues, it seems to me that they both increase the bonus.

If the prerequisite for creating the badge of valor was inspiritional boost, then I would say they do not both add (or stack), but are the same effect, and so they would overlap instead.

And finally, I see nothing in the description of the badge of valor that says it must be activated prior to the start of inspire courage.

That would be my ruling, and my reasons for such.
echoota
08-09-07, 02:37 AM I had a player with a Bard 3 (with the Song and Badge) and Marshall 1 and when this came up I was reading the Badge as an always-on effect that didn't need to be activated and ruled it that way.

It was probably the first time I'd seen a bard build that was actually effective, or at least worthwhile over simply being a druid, cleric or wizard. I'm tinkering with the build as a character for one of the factions as it looks like it would be a lot of fun to roleplay.

Add in the Masterwork Horn and some Archivist levels to really pile on bonuses.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 09:05 AM	Okay I have a semi-rules question/clarification of how this would tend to work in Xen'drik Expeditions (Before I spend an Expansion Slot on the item) Is there a way to use both the Inspirational Boost spell (Swift action in conjunction with Bardic Music) and the Badge of Valor item (MIC, immediate action). The Badge is a little ambiguous as to when it has to be used for the Bardic Music benefit (it doesn't say as you start bardic music just if you have bardic music and use the item). Could the following scenario work? Round 1 (PC's Turn): Swift Action - Cast Inspirational Boost Round 1 (PC's Turn): Standard Action - Start Bardic Music (Normal Bonus +1 from spell) Round 1 (After PC's Turn): Immediate Action - Use Badge of Valor (Bardic Music increases to Normal Bonus +1 from spell and +1 from Badge) Round 2: No available Swift Actions I ask because in the SRD it states: Using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn. It doesn't mention 'rounds' here, but just turn. Thanks, John
Marcus Majarra 08-08-07, 12:52 PM	The upcoming turn is always your turn on the next round (or your turn on this round, if you haven't reached your initiative count yet). There's one way to do it: On your turn: 1) Cast inspirational boost as a swift action. 2) Use the badge of valor as an immediate action. This denies you your swift action during your next turn. 3) Use inspire courage as a standard action. And voilà! This is a very good combo for any 8th-level bards in the campaign: • Inspire Courage • Inspirational Boost • Badge of Valor • Song of the Heart End result: +5 morale bonus on attack/damage/Will saves against fear effects while the bardic music lasts. Bard > Marshal
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 01:40 PM	End result: +5 morale bonus on attack/damage/Will saves against fear effects while the bardic music lasts. Bard > Marshal I wasn't sure if you could use both a swift and immediate action on your turn, but if that's allowed, that's the way to do it. That is the goal I have for my bard, but I've also included a masterwork drum in the mix for +5 attack / +6 damage / +4 Will saves. It's resource intensive but some fights demand it. Harliquinn
Istaran 08-08-07, 01:52 PM	Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. You absolutely cannot do the swift + immediate in one turn. Harliquinn's original idea was valid in terms of actions being available. I do not know if the item is useful when used like that though. I haven't looked at its text.
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 03:00 PM	You absolutely cannot do the swift + immediate in one turn. Harliquinn's original idea was valid in terms of actions being available. I do not know if the item is useful when used like that though. I haven't looked at its text. That was my original thinking. Unfortunately the item is a little 'vague' in terms of use with the bardic music. It seemed 'reasonable' to assume that if the item was used with Bardic Music going it would increase it by +1, but then again it could be just a substitute for Inspirational Boost. I just want to get a sense of how most DM's (particularly factionmasters) would rule such a combination before I spend an expansion slot/GP to purchase it (I have enough level 1 slots to Inspirational Boost all my Bardic Musics for a day usually).
Marcus Majarra 08-08-07, 06:43 PM	My bad for the mistake.
Shieldhart91 08-08-07, 07:07 PM	Why stop with Bard? Take the necessary levels in Marshall and get your attack to go up by another point. It makes all of the difference in the world. You take a hit on spellcasting (oh noes, I'm a bard ;-) ) and I suppose it slows down bardic music- but, it is something worth thinking about.
Shadowed Intent 08-08-07, 07:30 PM	Okay I have a semi-rules question/clarification of how this would tend to work in Xen'drik Expeditions (Before I spend an Expansion Slot on the item) Is there a way to use both the Inspirational Boost spell (Swift action in conjunction with Bardic Music) and the Badge of Valor item (MIC, immediate action). The Badge is a little ambiguous as to when it has to be used for the Bardic Music benefit (it doesn't say as you start bardic music just if you have bardic music and use the item). Could the following scenario work? Round 1 (PC's Turn): Swift Action - Cast Inspirational Boost Round 1 (PC's Turn): Standard Action - Start Bardic Music (Normal Bonus +1 from spell) Round 1 (After PC's Turn): Immediate Action - Use Badge of Valor (Bardic Music increases to Normal Bonus +1 from spell and +1 from Badge) Round 2: No available Swift Actions I ask because in the SRD it states: Using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn. It doesn't mention 'rounds' here, but just turn. Thanks, John I believe you have it right. Overall, I find this a very unusual situation, my first thought was they would not both apply. As I considered the situation, both the item and spell say they increase the morale bonus of the bardic music. I do not believe there is a stacking issue in this regard, since both say increase and there is no qualifier. In questionable situations such as these (where spells and items are both in effect, etc), I like to examine the spells required to make the item, in this case, remove fear is the prerequisite spell. While remove fear does grant a morale bonus, which normally would not stack with another morale bonus, the item description specifically states it increases the bardic music ability to inspire courage. Since inspire courage grants a morale bonus, it is obviously the intent of the item to add (or stack) with the normal morale bonus. With the items effect coming from a different spell, and no stacking issues, it seems to me that they both increase the bonus. If the prerequisite for creating the badge of valor was inspiritional boost, then I would say they do not both add (or stack), but are the same effect, and so they would overlap instead. And finally, I see nothing in the description of the badge of valor that says it must be activated prior to the start of inspire courage. That would be my ruling, and my reasons for such.
echoota 08-09-07, 02:37 AM	I had a player with a Bard 3 (with the Song and Badge) and Marshall 1 and when this came up I was reading the Badge as an always-on effect that didn't need to be activated and ruled it that way. It was probably the first time I'd seen a bard build that was actually effective, or at least worthwhile over simply being a druid, cleric or wizard. I'm tinkering with the build as a character for one of the factions as it looks like it would be a lot of fun to roleplay. Add in the Masterwork Horn and some Archivist levels to really pile on bonuses.