Level adjustment (What happens?) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Level adjustment (What happens?) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
quizboy
10-30-06, 10:56 AM I was at a table this weekend, and a good question came up:

When does a Half-Giant get their 1st stat bump?

This won't matter for a while, but it might be good to spell it out in the Campaign Standards now. I'm sorry if this has been answered somewhere before, but I didn't see it in the forums. I also didn't see anything explicit in the CS.

Also, would Gnolls/Assimar/Tieflings/Drow/Catfolk/Half-Giants/... get a feat at 3rd _class_ level or at 3000xp (2nd class level)?

The Gnoll PC Faq in the draft CS specifically mentions that expansion slots and action points are only for _class_ levels, so that means that +1 LA characters don't get a 2nd expansion slot until 3000xp, right?

If this is true, please place this in the CS in some place other than under the Gnoll PC FAQ. This applies to several other races as well, and has been missed by my local group.

Thanks.

--Steven
pedr
10-30-06, 12:04 PM By the rules of D&D, stat bumps and feats are acquired by gaining Hit Dice. They actually have no direct link to level, except by the fact that for 'normal' characters each level gives a hit die. A Gnoll Fighter 2 is ECL 3 because of the +1 level adjustment but this only has a bearing on issues such as how much experience he gains (under the normal rules, irrelevant for Xen'Ex) and what level of challenge it is appropriate for him and his party to face. He gains a feat for his 3rd Hit Die when he gets to take his third class level. He gains an attribute bump when he gains his 4th Hit Die, when he takes his fourth class level.

The issue of Action Points and Expansion Slots is more complicated - from my reading of the CS the campaign has decided to link those with class levels, so it would be on gaining 3,000 xp.
smerwin29
10-30-06, 12:29 PM I will try to add a very concrete and step-by-step explanation in the CS, but check this out:

Take a first-level gnoll fighter (or drow fighter or anything else with a +1 LA).

At 0 xp, they are considered a 2nd level character for purposes of figuring the average level of their table. In all other regards, they are considered first level characters. They would have the feats, hit points, expansion slots, action points, etc. of a 1st-level character.

At 1000 xp, where other characters get their second class level (and all the other benefits of a second-level character), the gnoll fighter is still considered a 2nd level character for purposes of figuring the average level of their table. In all other regards, they are still considered first-level characters. They would have the feats, hit points, expansion slots, action points, etc. of a 1st-level character.

At 3000 xp, where other characters get their third class level (and all the other benefits of a third-level character, like the 3rd-level feat), the gnoll fighter is considered a 3rd level character for purposes of figuring the average level of their table. In all other regards, they are still considered second-level characters (and so, for example, they would not get the third-level feat until earning 6000xp). They would have the feats, hit points, expansion slots, action points, etc. of a 2nd-level character. This includes everything, such as the maximum value of the equipment they can purchase.

Does that clear it up a little more?

Shawn
Crimson Codex Guy
quizboy
10-30-06, 12:33 PM Perfectly! Thanks, Shawn.
arscott
10-30-06, 04:17 PM Tying maximum value of equipment they can purchase to Hit Dice is wrong, though, unless you're intentionally deviating from RAW in some bizarre manner.

Experience and Wealth are the two things that are governed by ECL under the RAW, and maximum equipment purchase value is based on wealth-by-level guidelines.

Consider: after having played through a few adventures, a group of blackwheel characters have gained 1000 xp and 900 ev. The warforged scout is now a 2nd level character, and can purchase limited items up to 400 gp or whatever. But if you tie max value to HD, then the gnoll is still unable to purchase unlimited items, even though he has just as much gold as the warforged scout.

Since the whole maximum equipment value thing is designed to make items purchased with EV correspond with what the adventurers might get as treasure (instead of having it all go towards one uber-expensive item), it doesn't really make sense that the gnoll would have less than everyone else.
Starfox_SFX
10-31-06, 02:17 PM I would like to voice my concern about this as well. Tying max gold expediture to hd like that means that you can't even buy a lowly potion of healing until lv3, that is pretty extreme.

A +1 EL character is already paying for its advantages by sacrificing hp, BAB, spell progression, skill points, saves, class abilities, and in Eberron action points as compared to a non EL adjusted character. In addition, in this campaign they are also sacrificing an expansion slot if my understanding of how this works is correct.

Putting them behind on equipment on top of all that seems unnecessary and overly harsh.

Starfox_SFX
Errean
11-01-06, 03:00 AM Ok, I think that everyone is a little confused here. EV* is NOT tied to HD. You're LA** has nothing to do with you're HD***. It has to do with your ECL****, which is what governs your EV. A 1st level gnoll fighter with 0 xp has a LA +1 that they haven't made up for yet, thereby get EV and spending rights as a first level character. After they get 1000 XP they have made up for this LA and therefore is considered a 2nd level character in all regards, they just have a single HD.

Once again, nowhere does it say anything about HD having anything to do with EV. ECL is what you should be refering to.

* Equipment Value
** Level Adjustment
*** Hit Dice
**** Effective Character Level
bronzmonkee
11-02-06, 03:40 PM All the more reason to explicitly spell out what a +1 LA character does and does not get at 0 XP, 1000 XP, 3000 XP and so on.
arscott
11-03-06, 09:50 PM Ok, I think that everyone is a little confused here. EV is NOT tied to HD. You're LA has nothing to do with you're HD. It has to do with your ECL, which is what governs your EV. That's what I just said. But Shawn just said that "[Aspects of your character governed by HD include] everything, such as the maximum value of the equipment they can purchase."

Since maximum value of purchased equipment is presumably tied to EV/character wealth, it makes no sense to tie it to HD rather than ECL.

In practice, I'm not impressed by the way the CS talks about LA+ characters. It talks about ECL 2 characters being treated as 2nd level characters in most respects. That's a really shoddy way of describing it, though. In reality, the only things not based on HD are experience and wealth, but the wording used in the CS really obscures that.

The explanation of the Gnoll remains similarly confusing. While it finally has an explicit statement about hit dice, the explanation continues to downplay differences from the core rules gnoll. It would be much more effective if it simply listed the gnoll's new racial traits instead of simply trying to explain the changes.
smerwin29
11-04-06, 08:27 AM Feel free to write up the perfect explanation and email it to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
quizboy 10-30-06, 10:56 AM	I was at a table this weekend, and a good question came up: When does a Half-Giant get their 1st stat bump? This won't matter for a while, but it might be good to spell it out in the Campaign Standards now. I'm sorry if this has been answered somewhere before, but I didn't see it in the forums. I also didn't see anything explicit in the CS. Also, would Gnolls/Assimar/Tieflings/Drow/Catfolk/Half-Giants/... get a feat at 3rd _class_ level or at 3000xp (2nd class level)? The Gnoll PC Faq in the draft CS specifically mentions that expansion slots and action points are only for _class_ levels, so that means that +1 LA characters don't get a 2nd expansion slot until 3000xp, right? If this is true, please place this in the CS in some place other than under the Gnoll PC FAQ. This applies to several other races as well, and has been missed by my local group. Thanks. --Steven
pedr 10-30-06, 12:04 PM	By the rules of D&D, stat bumps and feats are acquired by gaining Hit Dice. They actually have no direct link to level, except by the fact that for 'normal' characters each level gives a hit die. A Gnoll Fighter 2 is ECL 3 because of the +1 level adjustment but this only has a bearing on issues such as how much experience he gains (under the normal rules, irrelevant for Xen'Ex) and what level of challenge it is appropriate for him and his party to face. He gains a feat for his 3rd Hit Die when he gets to take his third class level. He gains an attribute bump when he gains his 4th Hit Die, when he takes his fourth class level. The issue of Action Points and Expansion Slots is more complicated - from my reading of the CS the campaign has decided to link those with class levels, so it would be on gaining 3,000 xp.
smerwin29 10-30-06, 12:29 PM	I will try to add a very concrete and step-by-step explanation in the CS, but check this out: Take a first-level gnoll fighter (or drow fighter or anything else with a +1 LA). At 0 xp, they are considered a 2nd level character for purposes of figuring the average level of their table. In all other regards, they are considered first level characters. They would have the feats, hit points, expansion slots, action points, etc. of a 1st-level character. At 1000 xp, where other characters get their second class level (and all the other benefits of a second-level character), the gnoll fighter is still considered a 2nd level character for purposes of figuring the average level of their table. In all other regards, they are still considered first-level characters. They would have the feats, hit points, expansion slots, action points, etc. of a 1st-level character. At 3000 xp, where other characters get their third class level (and all the other benefits of a third-level character, like the 3rd-level feat), the gnoll fighter is considered a 3rd level character for purposes of figuring the average level of their table. In all other regards, they are still considered second-level characters (and so, for example, they would not get the third-level feat until earning 6000xp). They would have the feats, hit points, expansion slots, action points, etc. of a 2nd-level character. This includes everything, such as the maximum value of the equipment they can purchase. Does that clear it up a little more? Shawn Crimson Codex Guy
quizboy 10-30-06, 12:33 PM	Perfectly! Thanks, Shawn.
arscott 10-30-06, 04:17 PM	Tying maximum value of equipment they can purchase to Hit Dice is wrong, though, unless you're intentionally deviating from RAW in some bizarre manner. Experience and Wealth are the two things that are governed by ECL under the RAW, and maximum equipment purchase value is based on wealth-by-level guidelines. Consider: after having played through a few adventures, a group of blackwheel characters have gained 1000 xp and 900 ev. The warforged scout is now a 2nd level character, and can purchase limited items up to 400 gp or whatever. But if you tie max value to HD, then the gnoll is still unable to purchase unlimited items, even though he has just as much gold as the warforged scout. Since the whole maximum equipment value thing is designed to make items purchased with EV correspond with what the adventurers might get as treasure (instead of having it all go towards one uber-expensive item), it doesn't really make sense that the gnoll would have less than everyone else.
Starfox_SFX 10-31-06, 02:17 PM	I would like to voice my concern about this as well. Tying max gold expediture to hd like that means that you can't even buy a lowly potion of healing until lv3, that is pretty extreme. A +1 EL character is already paying for its advantages by sacrificing hp, BAB, spell progression, skill points, saves, class abilities, and in Eberron action points as compared to a non EL adjusted character. In addition, in this campaign they are also sacrificing an expansion slot if my understanding of how this works is correct. Putting them behind on equipment on top of all that seems unnecessary and overly harsh. Starfox_SFX
Errean 11-01-06, 03:00 AM	Ok, I think that everyone is a little confused here. EV* is NOT tied to HD. You're LA has nothing to do with you're HD. It has to do with your ECL**, which is what governs your EV. A 1st level gnoll fighter with 0 xp has a LA +1 that they haven't made up for yet, thereby get EV and spending rights as a first level character. After they get 1000 XP they have made up for this LA and therefore is considered a 2nd level character in all regards, they just have a single HD. Once again, nowhere does it say anything about HD having anything to do with EV. ECL is what you should be refering to. Equipment Value Level Adjustment * Hit Dice **** Effective Character Level
bronzmonkee 11-02-06, 03:40 PM	All the more reason to explicitly spell out what a +1 LA character does and does not get at 0 XP, 1000 XP, 3000 XP and so on.
arscott 11-03-06, 09:50 PM	Ok, I think that everyone is a little confused here. EV is NOT tied to HD. You're LA has nothing to do with you're HD. It has to do with your ECL, which is what governs your EV. That's what I just said. But Shawn just said that "[Aspects of your character governed by HD include] everything, such as the maximum value of the equipment they can purchase." Since maximum value of purchased equipment is presumably tied to EV/character wealth, it makes no sense to tie it to HD rather than ECL. In practice, I'm not impressed by the way the CS talks about LA+ characters. It talks about ECL 2 characters being treated as 2nd level characters in most respects. That's a really shoddy way of describing it, though. In reality, the only things not based on HD are experience and wealth, but the wording used in the CS really obscures that. The explanation of the Gnoll remains similarly confusing. While it finally has an explicit statement about hit dice, the explanation continues to downplay differences from the core rules gnoll. It would be much more effective if it simply listed the gnoll's new racial traits instead of simply trying to explain the changes.
smerwin29 11-04-06, 08:27 AM	Feel free to write up the perfect explanation and email it to me.