Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evil_ernie_SSK 12-17-06, 10:34 PM	1) When? Specifically will it happen before Jan 6th, I have just ordered some mods for then. 2) How much? Does anyone know the level our characters will be bumped to?
Harliquinn 12-17-06, 11:06 PM	The level bump is going to happen at Winter Fantasy 2007 (Now called D&D Experience). I believe the concensus is the bump will be to level 4 (Which I think is probably the highest you could have gotten doing all the current adventures).
Terry Hawkins 12-19-06, 12:10 AM	Why a level bump? Upon hearing about this the interest in Xen'drik Expeditions dropped sharpely for several players I know. They are mostly Living Greyhawk players who feel that level bumps robs players from "earning" their levels. I had no explaniation for them at the time, but what is the reason behind the level bumps so that I can explain it properly.
DBlizzard 12-19-06, 12:33 AM	I had no explaniation for them at the time, but what is the reason behind the level bumps so that I can explain it properly. It is to keep groups at the same approximate level. For example, my store where I run it has a small group of regular players with a handful of drop-ins who play once every few months. Without the level bumps, next year I'll have about 8th level characters and the dropins will have 2nd-3rd level characters, dogmeat for any scenarios that would challenge the regular players. That means I would lose these players completely. Also, getting a new player would be impossible. If Mark of Heroes had continued like it was supposed to a new player would be playing a 1st level character with 11th level characters. Again, not conducive to attracting new players.
Evil_ernie_SSK 12-19-06, 02:02 AM	Why a level bump? Upon hearing about this the interest in Xen'drik Expeditions dropped sharpely for several players I know. They are mostly Living Greyhawk players who feel that level bumps robs players from "earning" their levels. I had no explaniation for them at the time, but what is the reason behind the level bumps so that I can explain it properly. I also play LG and some of the players are a little miffed about level bumps as well. The main difference is that Xen'drik Expeditions (XE) story based, with one main story arc forcing the campaign along. While there is slight variations with the different factions I see it as one story from different perspectives. If people didn't continuously level throughout the end stuff would be silly. (the main boss should be a CR 15 demon but to scale it down it's a goblin...). The one arc play allows for reoccuring NPC's (much better feel to them), more cognitive threads, (VS I was just in Greyhawk and next session (1 week later) I am now across Oerth) and thanks to having the same authors throughout, the same feel of play throughout. With only 1 character per faction XE would be really tough to keep going with if you ever lost your character as well. (your friends are all 4 levels ahead of you, and can't play level 1 characters since they only get 1). The other advantage to doing a simple level bump is that you don't have to make encounters for a large span of APL's If it helps, think of XE like a home game. If you are just joining someone's ongoing homegame chances are the DM will want tou to make a character that is somewhat close to the other character's levels. In my homegame if a person dies and chooses to bring in a new character I'm not going to force the guy to start at level 1 if the rest of the party is level 10. Personally I believe level bumps should be a minimum level instead of a set level. (assuming it's not already done this way). IE if you are new you start at level 3. However if you have survived and done well through the quests so far, you would actually be level 4. This gives players who are toughing it through the (sometimes extremely) challenging quests a sense of accomplishment (Other than just story rewards) over the other players. at least that is my 2cp
Britt 12-19-06, 04:52 AM	I think the level bump is a good idea and makes a lot of sense in a limited-run campaign like the D&D Campaigns are supposed to be. The problem I've had with it in every incarnation (which I was hoping wouldn't be a problem here), is that the level/gp bump is always as much or more than you can get by actually playing the mods. It takes away from the desire to play, knowing that you'll be just as well off, or better, even if you didn't play. I know there are the ideas of the playing being the end in itself and the story objects being worthwhile, but there's also a good deal to be said for the sense of accomplishment in advancing your character. Now that I heard the bump is likely to 4th level, I have to say I'm disappointed. The ONLY way you could possibly make 4th level by playing is to play all the faction mods and DM's marks and both expeditions with the same character. That means that three of your characters could never keep up with the level bump by playing everything that is available, and one will only just barely keep up. And getting all that in takes a lot of planning, dedication, and work; it's not easy getting all these mods in in such short time before they expire. I had just come to accept that three of my characters were not going to be keeping up with the level bump and that one of my characters was going to be slightly ahead of the bump. Now it seems that the main character might not be able to keep up either. I think play numbers and desire would be greatly increased if the level bump was about 3/4 of the most you could achieve by playing everything. In this case, 3rd level when you could get to 4th by playing everything. You still bump people up to where they can keep up with the challenges and play with their friends, still have the limited range of challenge ratings, and people that played get to feel like it was worthwhile and will continue to do so. So here's my plea to the XE campaign staff to reconsider the 4th level bump and the way future bumps are handled :) Britt
smerwin29 12-19-06, 09:03 AM	If my tone creeps into sarcasm and anger during this post, I apologize in advance. I have very strong feelings about this, which sometimes break my self-control. The D&D Campaign-style campaign is meant to be something different than a Living-style campaign. The reasons for this decision were many, some of which have already been mentioned. A Living-style campaign requires a great deal of administration, so a campaign system was designed that could be managed more easily. Normal product/project cycles fit better into a two-year time span than a longer one in the game industry. Now, level bumps were also designed to be a part of the equation. There are obviously pros and cons to each type of system: level bump versus play-only advancement. People have already pointed out some of the pros and cons of the level bump. The matter is really simple. If you have a campaign with a limited cycle, you have to have level bumps. Otherwise people who come in late are not going to be able to participate. Writing adventures for a small range of levels is infinitely easier and more coherent than a large range. All the points about getting enough play chances to "beat" the level bump are well taken but obvious. Of course that the campaign needs to provide enough chances for regular players to have something more than someone who just sits down at the table with a new 4th-level character. And they do even without beating the level bump: story objects, the experience and knowledge of the earlier adventures, and the chance to have affected the plot through earlier play. Now in terms of getting enough XP and EV to beat the level bump, as I said, of course we want regular players to have more than players who take advantage of the level bump. But not too much more. Otherwise you are running into the same problems that new players have with the Living campaigns: they are "weaker" and feel left out. So we try to balance things for the right mix. The person who set down the initial XP and EV structure for XE is no longer with WotC, and I do not have access to his original plans. My best calculation was that the plans were to have people who played all the mods (including Expeditions) with what I will call a primary faction character would be close to 7th level, but safely 6th even if missing a mod or two and not getting full XP in every adventure. Secondary characters (ones that played all the faction mods but not the Expedition mods with a character) would still beat the level bump by a little, being safely 5th level. That would bring people in to the level bump higher than the level bump, even with secondary characters. Obviously with the "staffing issues" at the RPGA, the schedule was upset. Even so, we have still tried to make a schedule where, for this first bump to 4th-level characters, you can still be ahead of the level bump if you play most of the available adventures with your primary character. Going forward after this first bump, the burden of making this happen is squarely on the Factionmasters' shoulders. It will be solely on us to make the schedule work so regular players are ahead of the bump. It will be a priority among a dozen other priorities. The other Factionmasters and I are always open to suggestions and comments. We want to make this campaign fun for veteran RPGAers who play twice a week, as well as the person who just joins, as well as the person who sits down at a table 4 times a year. Feedback is always welcome. What is not welcome, at least by me, are the cries of, "Level bumps suck because other people get the same thing I get even though I played." No they don't. They didn't get the earlier play experience. They didn't get any story objects. If you feel that your experience is cheapened because of what someone else gets or doesn't get, then D&D Campaigns are probably not for you. Let me stop there, before I say something I'll regret. ;-) Shawn (Opinions expressed here are solely mine, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of any of the other Factionmasters or the RPGA--but they are nonetheless brilliant!)
Harliquinn 12-19-06, 09:54 AM	Personally I like the level-bumps and it's one reason I prefer the campaign-style over the Living-style. Nothing was more frustrating at a convention that you signed up for and paid $4.50 to play than to hear crickets when you said "1st level bard looking for a table." Anyways, that said, I think that the goals about having the level bump be on average 1 level behind what you could achieve by running all faction mods (Secondary faction character) and about 2 levels behind what you could achieve by running all faction mods and expeditions (Primary faction character) are good. Personally, I understand all the issues that have come up in the last few months that have left us slightly away from that goal though. I have met most of the factionmasters and they are truly dedicated to making the campaign great. I have confidence that once Winter Fantasy arrives and ends, we'll be back on track. Regardless of the problems that have arisen, I've had a lot of fun playing and running these adventures and it's the first Campaign-style game where I have had a vested interest in playing all I could and learning about the campaign. Harliquinn
Herrbard 12-19-06, 04:18 PM	(Opinions expressed here are solely mine, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of any of the other Factionmasters or the RPGA--but they are nonetheless brilliant!) Yes, yes they are. :cool:
Max_ed 12-20-06, 08:45 PM	I always thought of the level bump as a necessary evil for a starting campaign. LG is obviously very popular and has tons of players. This supports many mods with different character levels. This makes level bumps unneccessary. I thought the 2 year expiration date for Xen'drik was a fuzzy deadline. Didn't LG start with a 3 year plan? It took off. People wanted more. Look at it today. I'm optimistically planning on having Xen'drik or something very close to it continuing after the 2 year plan. A new campaign needs a level bump to keep the new players interested with a limited number of VERY well written mods (typos and minor oversights not withstanding). I can imagine if the player count goes up and/or more mods get written, we wouldn't need level bumps in the future. Call me optimistic or misguided, but I only see level bumps as a way to make a new campaign get off the ground. The big question is: could Xen'drik become a living campaign in the future? (Would it want to?)
smerwin29 12-20-06, 09:53 PM	The big question is: could Xen'drik become a living campaign in the future? (Would it want to?) Decisions like this are made way above the head of even the Factionmasters. The goals, budgets, and initiatives of the RPGA are certainly dictated by several departments within WotC, each with their own ends. I can't even begin to guess what those ends might be. Shawn
heirodule 12-21-06, 12:48 PM	I can't even begin to guess what those ends might be.Like the Daelkyr I tells ya!
smerwin29 12-21-06, 01:08 PM	Renton = Xoriat
Britt 12-22-06, 02:30 AM	I was not aware either 1) the level bump was set in stone by the powers that be, or 2) that the campaign progression points were also set. Trust me, I completely understand your position :) Hearing this, it gives me hope that th second level bump will be more in line with what I was hoping for, as I have faith in the abilities of all four factionmasters. I'm glad to know that future progression is in their hands. Thanks for the info, Shawn. Britt Frey