Magic Item Compendium and Expansion Slots [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic Item Compendium and Expansion Slots [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
echoota
05-11-07, 06:08 PM I like the new philosophy taken in the MIC, that they are adjusting gold costs to encourage more use of non-standard magic items, along with the fact that there are a slew of inexpensive magic items now to make low level play more fun.

The major problem with the MIC in regard to Xen'drik is that the sheer abundance of inexpensive items is essentially off limits in any realistic sense due to the expansion slot rule.

Now I like the expansion slot rule, I think it is a great way of keeping game balance while still providing a wide selection of options from most of the material published for D&D. Still, it seems that things could be tweaked a little bit, especially with magic items.

I'd suggest to the faction masters an addedum in the next version of the Xen'drik rules where items in the MIC of a particular gold value or less could be purchased without the use of expansion slots. I think this would be able to boost the fun value of the Xen'drik game, without causing any real stress with play balance. What the exact gold value can be debated, perhaps 750 gold or less is a good number. That way more use can be found with the book, because right now you'd have to have a really well thought out build to consider picking up some 500gp wonderous item at the expense of an expansion slot.
Timlagor
05-12-07, 08:37 AM I tried to [get them to be be] more generous with what you could get for an Expansion slot way back when.. and they made them weaker.

I'd like to see a lot more access to interesting items too. Not sure that it's very likely though.
Madfox11
05-14-07, 07:42 AM Personally I am having more problems with spells, but that is because I am playing a full spell-caster who wants to branch into a prestige class. The fact that feats costs 2 slots doesn't make it easier. So yeah, I like the system, but I think it is a bit too costly when it comes to spells, feats and items.
Timlagor
05-14-07, 12:24 PM Spells in particular. My Artificer requires a couple of Feats and then...!!!!!!!!

So if you can persuade them to let us get multiple spells/slot that would be great ;)
Madfox11
05-15-07, 08:48 AM Well... I just got a story reward with my Codex character that allows me to take 2 spells with one spell slot. That reward was very well received and my compliments to the faction master ;) Still too little, but than again, considering some of the broken druid spells in the various books, I can understand where they are coming from... now I just need to think whether I want instant gratification or prefer spells that I will be using in the near future ;)
Beware of Kobold
05-22-07, 11:15 AM did they make the MIC legal for use in XE, or is this just what you want to happen when they hypothetically do make MIC legal?
Timlagor
05-22-07, 12:57 PM MIC is XE-legal: see the XECS

When things are broken you don't really solve anything by merely limitting the number of broken options someone can take. It's the interesting but not overpowered options that are more likely to fall by the wayside.
Beware of Kobold
05-22-07, 03:46 PM hmm that's odd. the MIC wasnt even out yet when the CS 2.0 were released. I didn't realize that they had planned ahead
Skerrit
05-22-07, 04:42 PM I am just that good.
Starfox_SFX
05-27-07, 04:00 PM This seems like a good place to bring this up.

There has been an oddity introduced by the MIC with respect to expansion slots and the new format for some weapon upgrades. Previously, if I wanted desicating, I would unlock the +1 desicating ability, or if I wanted desicating burst, I would unlock the +2 desicating burst ability. Each one only cost 1 expansion slot, I would simply choose the one that I wanted/was willing to pay for.

With the new format introducing the "synergy" concept, to get desicating burst, I would now first have to unlock the base desicating ability, and then unlock the desicating burst ability, thus spending 2 expansion slots for what previously only cost 1.

Can synergy trees be rolled into 1 expansion slot in the next campaign standards release?

Thanks
Harliquinn
05-29-07, 08:54 AM How are things being done with respect to the change in the way magic items work between the Dungeon Master's Guide and the MIC?

Also, what takes precendence for an effect? DMG or MIC?

Also, when equipping our characters with items that are in both DMG / MIC (For instance the elemental burst weapons), do we use the new 'rules' for purchasing them (If an ability in the DMG is now a crystal, can we purchase the crystal without an expansion slot?)

Sorry for all the questions :)

Harli
Timlagor
05-29-07, 10:03 AM I don't know that this has been clarified for this campaign but I'm pretty confident that you use the DMG where applicable.

You don't have to own the MIC to use the DMG items so you wouldn't necessarily know if they were there or what the MIC had to say about them.

You definitely need to spend an ESlot if you want to use Augment Cristals.
Skerrit
05-29-07, 11:46 AM From page two of the XECS:

Errata Policy
The DUNGEONS & DRAGONS website (www.wizards.com/dnd) hosts errata for required and optional material. We recommend you periodically check that site and keep up with errata, as XEN’DRIK EXPEDITIONS supports DUNGEONS & DRAGONS sources modified by errata.
Also, the Dungeons & Dragons Spell Compendium contains errata for the spells it reprints, as does the Dungeons & Dragons Magic Item Compendium for many magic items. If a rules item allowed by the campaign is reprinted in a newer product, the newest printing is always considered errata and is used in XEN’DRIK EXPEDITIONS.
Timlagor
05-29-07, 01:47 PM Ok that's really not a good plan but there you go.
smerwin29
05-29-07, 02:00 PM I have not had a chance to really study the Magic Item Conpendium yet. Are there any magic items from the DMG that are errata'ed or altered in the MIC? If so, could someone who has the time and energy provide me with a list? You can PM me.

Thanks,

Shawn
lordtiberiusfoxx
05-29-07, 05:28 PM I have not had a chance to really study the Magic Item Conpendium yet. Are there any magic items from the DMG that are errata'ed or altered in the MIC? If so, could someone who has the time and energy provide me with a list? You can PM me.

Thanks,

Shawn

I honestly wouldn't mind if such a list were publically posted; I haven't purchased the MIC yet and I want to know which DMG items "I can't trust."
Timlagor
05-29-07, 05:52 PM Most things that have been changed have been reduced in price.
I don't have a list but the one someone raised was Flaming Burst: these have new rules requiring you to have access to 'flaming' before you can make something flaming burst [not actually a problem come to think of it since you have access to all DMG items in the XE ..still a major pain for those over-precious ESlots if you want something else that uses the same mechanic.]
Madfox11
05-30-07, 04:15 AM There are no DMG items in the MIC, except a reprint of alternate materials for weapons and armor (mithral, adamentine, etc.) which contain a couple of errors in the pricing. There is also a random treasure table and treasure by level table that do include DMG items, but again, tables do NOT override descriptions in the DMG. Of course, most DMs would interpret the way the MIC deals with acidic and acidic burst also should be applied to flaming burst weapons (basically the thing can be upgraded now by adding the burst property to a normal +1d6 dmg item), but that is not official.

Items from many other sources are changed, and some of them much more than merely price. As for it being a good idea or not, it is one of those things we have no choice about. It is something the high-ups want the RPGA campaigns to use. Although I also think it is a good idea since most of the changes for this book and Spell Compendium are good changes.
Harliquinn
05-30-07, 09:10 AM There are no DMG items in the MIC, except a reprint of alternate materials for weapons and armor (mithral, adamentine, etc.) which contain a couple of errors in the pricing.

This is unfortunately not the case. The Flaming/Burst and other weapons have all been changed (Though the end effect is about the same). In addition, several properties that used to be +X equivalents are now 'augment crystals' that can be attached or removed from different weapons (including plain masterwork versions).

One example (I'll have to check the book later today) is the Arrow Deflection ability for shields. It used to be a +2 equivalent, but is now a series of 3 increasingly powerful crystals that can be added to any shield for 500 to 5000gp.

I'll try to come up with a list sometime this week.

Harliquinn
smerwin29
05-30-07, 09:25 AM OK, so we have the flaming/flaming burst issue. If I understand this correctly, the problem is that before you could just unlock flaming burst by itself. Now, using MIC rules, you would first need to unlock flaming, and then unlock flaming burst. Is that correct? The actual cost is the same, but the cost of expansion slots has increased.

The other issue are the augment crystals, which in some cases replace DMG items that used to be just weapon/armor/shield properties, which changes the price?

Anything else?
Madfox11
05-30-07, 10:13 AM The augment crystals are completely new items, so even if they duplicate existing enhancements, I see no reason that they actually replace those. The MIC certainly don't make any mention of this. I seem to remember some of the crystals actually duplicate stuff printed as enhancements in the MIC. Crystals are easier to replace, but you can have only one active at a time, and they also require a minimum enhancement (in plusses and not special effects). The things are simply not the same. It is like saying you cannot have a potion of barkskin, because there is also an amulet of natural armor :rolleyes:

As for the flaming stuff, I don't have the books at hand, but I cannot remember seeing the lightning and flaming in there, just the acid and sonic versions. Mind you, the changes are logical and I would definitely apply them. As for the expension slots, that I cannot answer.

Edit: checked the MIC, and the flaming/burst and shocking/burst weapons are NOT in the book.
Timlagor
05-30-07, 12:34 PM OK I take it back. The problem I thought I saw apparently isn't actually there in practice. (it's still a pain to have a book with an item and not know if it's been changed in the MIC but at least that doesn't apply to the core books)
Harliquinn
05-31-07, 04:11 PM After review it appears that there are 'similar' abilities in MIC from the DMG (Ghost Ward, etc.) but that they are actually different (The energy resistance functions only for X points a day, etc.). I haven't gone through the wondrous items but for armor and weapons it appears they don't duplicate/repeat anything from DMG.
Timlagor
05-31-07, 09:21 PM I came across somethign that was different: Energy Resistance on items/armour is considerably cheaper in the MIC (about 1/2 price iirc and there are more options) -see the table in the capter on creating items.
Harliquinn
06-01-07, 11:07 AM I came across somethign that was different: Energy Resistance on items/armour is considerably cheaper in the MIC (about 1/2 price iirc and there are more options) -see the table in the capter on creating items.

Is that for the items that provide only X amount of resistance / day?
Timlagor
06-01-07, 04:03 PM Doesn't seem to be. There was no descriptive text: just the table of common enchantments listing "Energy Resistance 5 - Xgp" etc. and the body slots it was appropriate for.
Starfox_SFX
06-06-07, 08:24 PM ....Edit: checked the MIC, and the flaming/burst and shocking/burst weapons are NOT in the book.

Page 225, tables 6-1 and 6-2. While these tables are in fact called 'variant' synergy abilities, they do in essence convert shocking, flaming and icy from the DMG (as well as a bunch of different armour enhancements) into the synergy system used for all similar weapons in the MIC. However, this doesn't actually change anything since all it does is say you need to have flaming before you can buy flaming burst, and since both are in the DMG you wouldn't spend any expansion slots on them anyway;) .

Corrosive/acidic burst, desicating/desicating burst, bane/fiercebane etc. are all examples of abilities which share the same mechanism as the shocking/shocking burst mechanic and used to only cost 1 expansion slot in order to get the "burst" ability, but would now require 2 expansion slots to acquire.

The cost of the enchantment in gp is no different, it is purely a matter of the expansion cost having gone up from 1 slot in previous printings to 2 expansion slots in the new book.

Starfox_SFX
Starfox_SFX
06-06-07, 08:24 PM Vesuvian dopplegangers like to duplicate things, even themselvs ;D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
echoota 05-11-07, 06:08 PM	I like the new philosophy taken in the MIC, that they are adjusting gold costs to encourage more use of non-standard magic items, along with the fact that there are a slew of inexpensive magic items now to make low level play more fun. The major problem with the MIC in regard to Xen'drik is that the sheer abundance of inexpensive items is essentially off limits in any realistic sense due to the expansion slot rule. Now I like the expansion slot rule, I think it is a great way of keeping game balance while still providing a wide selection of options from most of the material published for D&D. Still, it seems that things could be tweaked a little bit, especially with magic items. I'd suggest to the faction masters an addedum in the next version of the Xen'drik rules where items in the MIC of a particular gold value or less could be purchased without the use of expansion slots. I think this would be able to boost the fun value of the Xen'drik game, without causing any real stress with play balance. What the exact gold value can be debated, perhaps 750 gold or less is a good number. That way more use can be found with the book, because right now you'd have to have a really well thought out build to consider picking up some 500gp wonderous item at the expense of an expansion slot.
Timlagor 05-12-07, 08:37 AM	I tried to [get them to be be] more generous with what you could get for an Expansion slot way back when.. and they made them weaker. I'd like to see a lot more access to interesting items too. Not sure that it's very likely though.
Madfox11 05-14-07, 07:42 AM	Personally I am having more problems with spells, but that is because I am playing a full spell-caster who wants to branch into a prestige class. The fact that feats costs 2 slots doesn't make it easier. So yeah, I like the system, but I think it is a bit too costly when it comes to spells, feats and items.
Timlagor 05-14-07, 12:24 PM	Spells in particular. My Artificer requires a couple of Feats and then...!!!!!!!! So if you can persuade them to let us get multiple spells/slot that would be great ;)
Madfox11 05-15-07, 08:48 AM	Well... I just got a story reward with my Codex character that allows me to take 2 spells with one spell slot. That reward was very well received and my compliments to the faction master ;) Still too little, but than again, considering some of the broken druid spells in the various books, I can understand where they are coming from... now I just need to think whether I want instant gratification or prefer spells that I will be using in the near future ;)
Beware of Kobold 05-22-07, 11:15 AM	did they make the MIC legal for use in XE, or is this just what you want to happen when they hypothetically do make MIC legal?
Timlagor 05-22-07, 12:57 PM	MIC is XE-legal: see the XECS When things are broken you don't really solve anything by merely limitting the number of broken options someone can take. It's the interesting but not overpowered options that are more likely to fall by the wayside.
Beware of Kobold 05-22-07, 03:46 PM	hmm that's odd. the MIC wasnt even out yet when the CS 2.0 were released. I didn't realize that they had planned ahead
Skerrit 05-22-07, 04:42 PM	I am just that good.
Starfox_SFX 05-27-07, 04:00 PM	This seems like a good place to bring this up. There has been an oddity introduced by the MIC with respect to expansion slots and the new format for some weapon upgrades. Previously, if I wanted desicating, I would unlock the +1 desicating ability, or if I wanted desicating burst, I would unlock the +2 desicating burst ability. Each one only cost 1 expansion slot, I would simply choose the one that I wanted/was willing to pay for. With the new format introducing the "synergy" concept, to get desicating burst, I would now first have to unlock the base desicating ability, and then unlock the desicating burst ability, thus spending 2 expansion slots for what previously only cost 1. Can synergy trees be rolled into 1 expansion slot in the next campaign standards release? Thanks
Harliquinn 05-29-07, 08:54 AM	How are things being done with respect to the change in the way magic items work between the Dungeon Master's Guide and the MIC? Also, what takes precendence for an effect? DMG or MIC? Also, when equipping our characters with items that are in both DMG / MIC (For instance the elemental burst weapons), do we use the new 'rules' for purchasing them (If an ability in the DMG is now a crystal, can we purchase the crystal without an expansion slot?) Sorry for all the questions :) Harli
Timlagor 05-29-07, 10:03 AM	I don't know that this has been clarified for this campaign but I'm pretty confident that you use the DMG where applicable. You don't have to own the MIC to use the DMG items so you wouldn't necessarily know if they were there or what the MIC had to say about them. You definitely need to spend an ESlot if you want to use Augment Cristals.
Skerrit 05-29-07, 11:46 AM	From page two of the XECS: Errata Policy The DUNGEONS & DRAGONS website (www.wizards.com/dnd) hosts errata for required and optional material. We recommend you periodically check that site and keep up with errata, as XEN’DRIK EXPEDITIONS supports DUNGEONS & DRAGONS sources modified by errata. Also, the Dungeons & Dragons Spell Compendium contains errata for the spells it reprints, as does the Dungeons & Dragons Magic Item Compendium for many magic items. If a rules item allowed by the campaign is reprinted in a newer product, the newest printing is always considered errata and is used in XEN’DRIK EXPEDITIONS.
Timlagor 05-29-07, 01:47 PM	Ok that's really not a good plan but there you go.
smerwin29 05-29-07, 02:00 PM	I have not had a chance to really study the Magic Item Conpendium yet. Are there any magic items from the DMG that are errata'ed or altered in the MIC? If so, could someone who has the time and energy provide me with a list? You can PM me. Thanks, Shawn
lordtiberiusfoxx 05-29-07, 05:28 PM	I have not had a chance to really study the Magic Item Conpendium yet. Are there any magic items from the DMG that are errata'ed or altered in the MIC? If so, could someone who has the time and energy provide me with a list? You can PM me. Thanks, Shawn I honestly wouldn't mind if such a list were publically posted; I haven't purchased the MIC yet and I want to know which DMG items "I can't trust."
Timlagor 05-29-07, 05:52 PM	Most things that have been changed have been reduced in price. I don't have a list but the one someone raised was Flaming Burst: these have new rules requiring you to have access to 'flaming' before you can make something flaming burst [not actually a problem come to think of it since you have access to all DMG items in the XE ..still a major pain for those over-precious ESlots if you want something else that uses the same mechanic.]
Madfox11 05-30-07, 04:15 AM	There are no DMG items in the MIC, except a reprint of alternate materials for weapons and armor (mithral, adamentine, etc.) which contain a couple of errors in the pricing. There is also a random treasure table and treasure by level table that do include DMG items, but again, tables do NOT override descriptions in the DMG. Of course, most DMs would interpret the way the MIC deals with acidic and acidic burst also should be applied to flaming burst weapons (basically the thing can be upgraded now by adding the burst property to a normal +1d6 dmg item), but that is not official. Items from many other sources are changed, and some of them much more than merely price. As for it being a good idea or not, it is one of those things we have no choice about. It is something the high-ups want the RPGA campaigns to use. Although I also think it is a good idea since most of the changes for this book and Spell Compendium are good changes.
Harliquinn 05-30-07, 09:10 AM	There are no DMG items in the MIC, except a reprint of alternate materials for weapons and armor (mithral, adamentine, etc.) which contain a couple of errors in the pricing. This is unfortunately not the case. The Flaming/Burst and other weapons have all been changed (Though the end effect is about the same). In addition, several properties that used to be +X equivalents are now 'augment crystals' that can be attached or removed from different weapons (including plain masterwork versions). One example (I'll have to check the book later today) is the Arrow Deflection ability for shields. It used to be a +2 equivalent, but is now a series of 3 increasingly powerful crystals that can be added to any shield for 500 to 5000gp. I'll try to come up with a list sometime this week. Harliquinn
smerwin29 05-30-07, 09:25 AM	OK, so we have the flaming/flaming burst issue. If I understand this correctly, the problem is that before you could just unlock flaming burst by itself. Now, using MIC rules, you would first need to unlock flaming, and then unlock flaming burst. Is that correct? The actual cost is the same, but the cost of expansion slots has increased. The other issue are the augment crystals, which in some cases replace DMG items that used to be just weapon/armor/shield properties, which changes the price? Anything else?
Madfox11 05-30-07, 10:13 AM	The augment crystals are completely new items, so even if they duplicate existing enhancements, I see no reason that they actually replace those. The MIC certainly don't make any mention of this. I seem to remember some of the crystals actually duplicate stuff printed as enhancements in the MIC. Crystals are easier to replace, but you can have only one active at a time, and they also require a minimum enhancement (in plusses and not special effects). The things are simply not the same. It is like saying you cannot have a potion of barkskin, because there is also an amulet of natural armor :rolleyes: As for the flaming stuff, I don't have the books at hand, but I cannot remember seeing the lightning and flaming in there, just the acid and sonic versions. Mind you, the changes are logical and I would definitely apply them. As for the expension slots, that I cannot answer. Edit: checked the MIC, and the flaming/burst and shocking/burst weapons are NOT in the book.
Timlagor 05-30-07, 12:34 PM	OK I take it back. The problem I thought I saw apparently isn't actually there in practice. (it's still a pain to have a book with an item and not know if it's been changed in the MIC but at least that doesn't apply to the core books)
Harliquinn 05-31-07, 04:11 PM	After review it appears that there are 'similar' abilities in MIC from the DMG (Ghost Ward, etc.) but that they are actually different (The energy resistance functions only for X points a day, etc.). I haven't gone through the wondrous items but for armor and weapons it appears they don't duplicate/repeat anything from DMG.
Timlagor 05-31-07, 09:21 PM	I came across somethign that was different: Energy Resistance on items/armour is considerably cheaper in the MIC (about 1/2 price iirc and there are more options) -see the table in the capter on creating items.
Harliquinn 06-01-07, 11:07 AM	I came across somethign that was different: Energy Resistance on items/armour is considerably cheaper in the MIC (about 1/2 price iirc and there are more options) -see the table in the capter on creating items. Is that for the items that provide only X amount of resistance / day?
Timlagor 06-01-07, 04:03 PM	Doesn't seem to be. There was no descriptive text: just the table of common enchantments listing "Energy Resistance 5 - Xgp" etc. and the body slots it was appropriate for.
Starfox_SFX 06-06-07, 08:24 PM	....Edit: checked the MIC, and the flaming/burst and shocking/burst weapons are NOT in the book. Page 225, tables 6-1 and 6-2. While these tables are in fact called 'variant' synergy abilities, they do in essence convert shocking, flaming and icy from the DMG (as well as a bunch of different armour enhancements) into the synergy system used for all similar weapons in the MIC. However, this doesn't actually change anything since all it does is say you need to have flaming before you can buy flaming burst, and since both are in the DMG you wouldn't spend any expansion slots on them anyway;) . Corrosive/acidic burst, desicating/desicating burst, bane/fiercebane etc. are all examples of abilities which share the same mechanism as the shocking/shocking burst mechanic and used to only cost 1 expansion slot in order to get the "burst" ability, but would now require 2 expansion slots to acquire. The cost of the enchantment in gp is no different, it is purely a matter of the expansion cost having gone up from 1 slot in previous printings to 2 expansion slots in the new book. Starfox_SFX
Starfox_SFX 06-06-07, 08:24 PM	Vesuvian dopplegangers like to duplicate things, even themselvs ;D