Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gooder101 08-30-06, 11:04 PM	Hi all... The Xen'Drik Campaign Standards v1-0 says: "When you multiclass or take a prestige class you must advance at least three levels in that class before you can take a levels in another base class or prestige class you don't already have levels in. The levels need not be consecutive." Then it goes on to say: "This is not true for your favored class and one other base class. This second class is your secondary favored class." The way I read that is that the class I take at first level (assuming it is not a favored) does not have to have 3 levels before I malticlass (because I have not multiclassed yet and it says "when you multiclass"), just the class I malticlass INTO does (unless it is a favored) and only if I want to take a third base class or a prestige class, but if I'm going back to take a level in what I took at first level (because it says "you don't already have levels in") it would be fine. Is that right? In case that's not clear, would this be within the rules: Race = Shifter Favored = Ranger Secondary = Fighter 1st lvl = Druid 1 2nd lvl = Wizard 1 3rd lvl = Wizard 2 4th lvl = Druid 2 5ht lvl = Wizard 3 6th lvl = Druid 3 7th lvl = Fighter 1 This character could not take Figher levels untill both Druid and Wizard levels were 3 or more but was not forced to take those 3 levels consecutivly (because it says "The levels need not be consecutive.") right? Could the same Shifter to this: 1st lvl = Druid 1 2nd lvl = Fighter 1 3rd lvl = Wizard 1 4th lvl = Fighter 2 5ht lvl = Wizard 2 6th lvl = Wizard 3 7th lvl = *any PrC that he qualifies for or new base class* This character could get into Wizard at 3rd level after only one level in Fighter because Fighter is a favored and then go back to Fighter because it is a class he already had levels in even though three levels of Wizard have not been taken yet but before he could take yet another base class or a PrC he would have to take levels two and three of Wizard. Right? OH and if he didn't want to he would never have to go back and take more levels in Druid because the Multiclassing rule says "When you multiclass or take a prestige class you must advance at least three levels in that class before you can take a levels in another..." so it would not apply to the Druid level as he was not multiclassed when he took Druid and when it says "in that class" it is reffering to the second or even third class that caused the character to be a multiclassed character. Right? Thanks for any and all feedback! I have been playing D&D for about 25 years but a new to the RPGA game so I'll say sorry up front if I don't understand something that you all are trying to explain.
kiddoc 08-30-06, 11:05 PM	It's messy, ugly, and also not very clear. Did I mention that I hate it. A more elegant solution should be forthcoming. This will be clarified to the point of as-crystal-clear-as-we-can-make-it (& with changes) in the next version. Sorry for the muck, it won't last long.
gooder101 08-30-06, 11:15 PM	It may be messy and ugly but do I understand it right?
DBlizzard 08-31-06, 12:17 AM	It may be messy and ugly but do I understand it right?I think you had it right, at least as it's worded, except for one thing. I don't think your first class has to be your second favored class. There is a spot on the adventure journals where you list your second favored class.
smerwin29 08-31-06, 08:24 AM	I think that although you are correct by the exact wording of the rule, I am quite sure that the rules were written with the assumption that the first class you took was either going to be your favored class or your secondary favored class. So in the example you use, when you choose fighter as your secondary favored class, but choose druid as your first class level, you now only have three choices for your class at level 2: ranger (favored), fighter (second favored), or druid (first level choice). You could not choose another class, aside from these three, until you had at least 3 levels of druid. Although the Factionmasters will need to discuss this, I think you will see the new rules clarified to reflect this interpretation. Shawn Crimson Codex Guy
Lightblade 08-31-06, 09:33 AM	I think that although you are correct by the exact wording of the rule, I am quite sure that the rules were written with the assumption that the first class you took was either going to be your favored class or your secondary favored class. So in the example you use, when you choose fighter as your secondary favored class, but choose druid as your first class level, you now only have three choices for your class at level 2: ranger (favored), fighter (second favored), or druid (first level choice). You could not choose another class, aside from these three, until you had at least 3 levels of druid. Although the Factionmasters will need to discuss this, I think you will see the new rules clarified to reflect this interpretation. Shawn Crimson Codex Guy This interpretation being that if your first class is not a favored class, it must be your secondary class? I'm confused as to your meaning.
smerwin29 08-31-06, 10:53 AM	Actually, what I mean is a rewording so that people understand what exactly multiclassing means. The original poster said the following: "The way I read that is that the class I take at first level (assuming it is not a favored) does not have to have 3 levels before I malticlass (because I have not multiclassed yet and it says "when you multiclass"), just the class I malticlass INTO does (unless it is a favored) and only if I want to take a third base class or a prestige class, but if I'm going back to take a level in what I took at first level (because it says "you don't already have levels in") it would be fine. Is that right?" What I am saying is that multiclassing in two of your non-favored classes, even if it is at first and second level, invokes the rule that you need 3 levels of the original class before you can take another non-favored class. The original poster is interpreting multi-classing in its strictest sense to say that since that original class is not technically multiclassing since it is at first level. And if you interpret "multiclassing" in the strictest sense of the word, it can be interpreted that way. What I am saying is that the rule does not use "multiclassing" in that way. It is talking about anytime you take a different class, whether the original class was taken at first level or not. My interpretation of the rule says you need to take three levels of a class that is not your favored or secondary favored class before you can take a different non-favored class. This is the spirit of the rule, even if the wording can be interpreted in different ways. So in the example in the original post, the character would have to take three levels of druid before it could take any levels of wizard. It doesn't matter what class is taken at first level--the rules must be followed from that time forward. This might not be how the XE CS turns out when the next version is released, but that is my interpretation heading into the process.
Lightblade 08-31-06, 02:13 PM	Ahh, yes, now I see. I hadn't read the original post well enough to see what the issue was. Yes, i completely agree with you that the spirit is clear, even if using the word "multiclassing" causes this issue of meaning.
Reylance 08-31-06, 03:03 PM	I make this suggestion frequently, and hope that you will make use of it when the CS are updated. Provide specific examples. For example, let's say the rule is clarified as "You have two favored classes, your racial favored class, and one additional base class of your choice. When you level, until you have at least three levels of all classes that are not your favored classes, your next chosen class must be one of 1) your first favored class; 2) your second favored class; 3) any class you already have levels in." Then, you could provide specific examples like: "Noltar is a shifter with favored classes ranger (racial) and fighter (chosen). At first level, he chooses Druid as his class. At second level, he must choose Druid, Fighter, or Ranger." "Noltar is a shifter with favored classes ranger (racial) and fighter (chosen). For his first four levels, he chooses Druid 3 and Fighter 1. He may choose any class he qualifies for at 5th level." "Noltar is a shifter with favored classes ranger (racial) and fighter (chosen). For his first eight levels, he chooses Druid 3, Wizard 3, Fighter 1, and Arcane Hierophant 1 (access opened as his 5th level expansion slot). At ninth level, he must choose Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Wizard, or Arcane Hierophant."
gooder101 09-01-06, 03:49 PM	Interesting… I always assumed that when it said “This is not true for your favored class and one other base class.” It was meaning that if the class you multiclass into is one of your favored classes you don’t have to take 3 levels in it before taking levels in something else. But from some of the posts here I see that some of you think that it means that when you multiclass you can take levels in one of your favored classes even if you don’t have 3 levels in the class you are already in. Which is correct? Are they both correct? Oh one more thing, does anyone know if Xen’Drik will be applying the Players Handbook penalty to experience points for multiclassing characters that do not keep there class levels adjacent to one another (with the exception of a characters favored classes of course) as well as this new set of rules for multiclassing or does this new set of rules replace the Players Handbooks rules for this living Xen’Drik campaign?
smerwin29 09-01-06, 04:00 PM	This "3 level" rule was incorporated to approximate the XP penalty rule without making the database need to keep track of it.
Timlagor 09-11-06, 06:10 AM	This "3 level" rule was incorporated to approximate the XP penalty rule without making the database need to keep track of it. ..so how come it applies to PrCs then? (which also can't be a secondary favoured class iiuc) Is it really necessary? It would be much simpler to just abolish the rule: does it offer enough benefit to be worth the hassle?
smerwin29 09-11-06, 07:31 AM	The rule also eliminates the worst of the "prestige class cherry picking" where people are just taking one or two levels of a prestige class to get some particular ability. I think that aspect of the 3.x rules (people creating broken combinations by taking just one or two levels) is one of the worst in terms of unbalancing the game, and the rule will not be abolished as long as I am a Factionmaster. I can't speak for the other Factionmasters as to their opinions on it, but I can bribe or intimidate them if they try to abolish it! ;-)
Lightblade 09-11-06, 04:53 PM	The rule also eliminates the worst of the "prestige class cherry picking" where people are just taking one or two levels of a prestige class to get some particular ability. I think that aspect of the 3.x rules (people creating broken combinations by taking just one or two levels) is one of the worst in terms of unbalancing the game, and the rule will not be abolished as long as I am a Factionmaster. I can't speak for the other Factionmasters as to their opinions on it, but I can bribe or intimidate them if they try to abolish it! ;-) I agree. How many builds have you seen that just throw a level of Mindbender in for telepathy, or the like? A prestiege class ought to represent a commitment to something. Note that you can still just take 1 or 2 levels of a PrC, as long as you're fine just advancing only the classes you have levels in currently and not taking any new ones.
Sianger 09-12-06, 08:24 PM	I agree. How many builds have you seen that just throw a level of Mindbender in for telepathy, or the like? A prestiege class ought to represent a commitment to something. Note that you can still just take 1 or 2 levels of a PrC, as long as you're fine just advancing only the classes you have levels in currently and not taking any new ones. Indeed. It's a good rule, I think - cherry-picking is just so annoying, both from a mechanical (breaks the game sometimes) and role-playing perspective. [I like the PHB 2 base classes for that reason - they're poor "level-dip" classes but good straight-classed builds.] But it could be phrased / substantiated a little more clearly, as Reylance said earlier.
Timlagor 09-14-06, 12:41 AM	So the reference to the XP-penalty was a complete red-herring? - the xp-penalty favours keeping multiclassed classes down to 1-2 levels - there is no multi-class xp-penalty for Prestige Classes This rule also does some really odd things to the favoured-class mechanic: you "favour" the classes you want to take least of. I like the PHB2 classes too though I'm not convinced they're all poor "level-dips" -take a look at what you can pick up with one level of Dragon Shaman! (Duskblade and Beguiler aren't bad either) If balance is an issue then there are a LOT of things that should be restricted -this doesn't look like a Campaign that is overly concerned with people building powerful characters. If it's about roleplaying then I simply disagree that there is anything wrong with multiclassing. Why should my roleplaying be restricted by the set classes? Concepts can demand multiclassing just as much as powergaming -though this rule isn't so restrictive as to be a real problem in that regard. Finally you should realise that no rule will ever stop people who want to from power-gaming. Restrictions are likely to hit other people much harder. Having said all that, this rule doesn't bother me at all. I only asked because it seems to be causing some confusion (again not to the powergamers I should think).