Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harliquinn 08-06-07, 11:10 AM	Hey, thanks for getting the new standards out for review. I really appreciate that you've listened to the players and have made some great changes, while keeping the balance in line. I do have two questions: 1) Was Complete Champion left off of the allowed list of books by accident? There are several references to the book as (CC) in the standards, both restricting certain aspects and giving clarifications on other aspects. However, it's not listed as allowed in the beginning, nor is it restricted as a source. 2) Under Restricted, there is a note that says the items are restricted even if found on a Story Object. There have been some story objects that circumvent this list (Notably a Covenant of Light reward recently for an otherwise evil class). Could you clarify what the restriction means about Story Objects (Since those are determined by the authors, factionmasters, etc.). Thanks
Tabiani 08-06-07, 12:12 PM	Good: Dispel Confusion stuff added Can retool expansion slots after the first one Stat gain items (books tomes) aren't priced as "consumable" Item creation from MIC clarified. At least I think I understand it. Bad: No clarification that consumables purchased during an adventure cost 5x Only crawling tattoos can be unlocked? What about standard psionic tattoos? Favored In House Check Results still top out at level 6 I'll probably add more as I study it a bit longer.
Lightblade 08-06-07, 12:31 PM	I really like this latest Campaign Standards document. The ability to retool expansion slots at level bumps is very nice. Some initial comments: 1) I see that Boccob's Blessed Book is restricted, but Aureon's Spellshard is not, which is something of a loophole, unless the intent was to have everyone use the Spellshard instead, in the spirit of Eberron. 2) I'm actually surprised that the Devotion (Domain) feats in Complete Champion are being allowed. Unless, of course, the previous poster was correct and CC was intentionally left off the Optional Material.
Garden_State_Gamer 08-06-07, 12:39 PM	"The DM has discretion when it comes to fitting the challenges of the adventure to their group." Now if you are having too easy or too hard of a time, blame the Judge. Super :D On another note: Thanks for the Expansion-retooling option. Much appreciated.
Harliquinn 08-06-07, 12:48 PM	2) I'm actually surprised that the Devotion (Domain) feats in Complete Champion are being allowed. Unless, of course, the previous poster was correct and CC was intentionally left off the Optional Material. I think it was mistakenly left off the 'optional rules allowed' portion at the beginning since there are many references to CC rules. They also talked about potentially restricting some alternate class features in CC.
Skerrit 08-06-07, 01:07 PM	1) Was Complete Champion left off of the allowed list of books by accident? There are several references to the book as (CC) in the standards, both restricting certain aspects and giving clarifications on other aspects. However, it's not listed as allowed in the beginning, nor is it restricted as a source. 2) Under Restricted, there is a note that says the items are restricted even if found on a Story Object. There have been some story objects that circumvent this list (Notably a Covenant of Light reward recently for an otherwise evil class). Could you clarify what the restriction means about Story Objects (Since those are determined by the authors, factionmasters, etc.). 1) Yes, it's a mistake. CC is allowed. 2) I wasn't aware of that story object, the FMs will have to talk it over.
Harliquinn 08-06-07, 01:08 PM	[Deleted]
Skerrit 08-06-07, 01:10 PM	No clarification that consumables purchased during an adventure cost 5x Only crawling tattoos can be unlocked? What about standard psionic tattoos? 1) I will add that to the next Dispel Confusion after Gen Con. Unless a mod tells you otherwise (and I can think of one that did); comsumables always cost x5. 2) That's a typo on my part. It was supposed to be crawling and regular psionic tattoos.
Skerrit 08-06-07, 01:13 PM	1) I see that Boccob's Blessed Book is restricted, but Aureon's Spellshard is not, which is something of a loophole, unless the intent was to have everyone use the Spellshard instead, in the spirit of Eberron. 2) I'm actually surprised that the Devotion (Domain) feats in Complete Champion are being allowed. Unless, of course, the previous poster was correct and CC was intentionally left off the Optional Material. 1) An oversight on my part, though the intent is clear. "Aureon's" Spellshard is also Restricted. I will add it to the after Gen Con Dispel Confusion. 2) Many of them are quite good, but then again XE is the campaign that gives you the world (with a tiny bit of balance). CC being left of the list was an accident, it is allowed.
Harliquinn 08-06-07, 01:17 PM	2) Many of them are quite good, but then again XE is the campaign that gives you the world (with a tiny bit of balance). CC being left of the list was an accident, it is allowed. Thanks for clearing up our questions. I don't really consider XE to be only a tiny bit balanced. I enjoy it because it feels like a real 'home campaign' with many options but GM's who look out for the truly broken combinations.
Lightblade 08-06-07, 02:18 PM	2) That's a typo on my part. It was supposed to be crawling and regular psionic tattoos. Does this apply to dorjes as well? I've got a psion in the campaign that has purchased 1st level dorjes of XPH powers. If this is not allowed, I'll be retooling my character somewhat.
Psykick 08-06-07, 02:26 PM	If this thread is leading to a Dispel Confusion, could someone please take a look at the descriptions for Extraordinary Artisan on pp. 8, 19? They seem to be in conflict. Should it ultimately be something along the lines of, "Taking this feat allows characters to craft consumable magic items for x2 the published cost instead of x5 published cost (or instead of the x3 published cost when applying an item creation feat). A character can create magic items that aren't consumed with use for 1/2 published cost instead of 2/3 published cost. Game effects that reduce blah, blah, blah . . ." ?
Lightblade 08-06-07, 03:01 PM	If this thread is leading to a Dispel Confusion, could someone please take a look at the descriptions for Extraordinary Artisan on pp. 8, 19? They seem to be in conflict. They are in conflict, but it's clear what the feat does. Crafted consumables cost 2x cost, and crafted permanent items cost 1/2 cost. To reference costs of items crafted without this feat, just look in the rules for Item Creation found on pg 7 of the campaign standard: 3x cost instead of 5x for consumables, and 2/3 cost for permanent items.
lseelba 08-06-07, 07:23 PM	Thank you for the updated campaign standards. I'm still digesting it, and I'm sure I'll have some questions shortly! -Lou
Timlagor 08-07-07, 11:58 AM	Lots of comments in no particular order. Some are unclear.. some just things I would have preferred otherwise. 0) Lots of stuff has been clarified and that's good (even if I'd have done some of them differently myself ;)). Many things are even better for it :D 1) Is there any way to get a Psionic Tattoo without having used the Creation Card? [I want to spend an ESlot to unlock Psionic Tattoos of Expansion: can I?] Why are these tatoos being treated so differently from scrolls and potions? 2) "The most enjoyable D&D games are ones where failure and character death are possible, but success and reward are attainable through daring and smart play" (leaving aside my very English wince at the use of "smart") This sentence is *far* too strong. While it is true for many (even most) players, there are a lot of people who like to smash the combats or simply don't care about them very much at all. Some people also like to do their intelligent design before they even sit down. I like the idea but that sentence is very bad imo. 3) The stuff pertaining only to 1st level characters could be cut. 4) It's not clear if people with Etch Schema can create Schemas for all their possible spells/infusions or if they need to unlock the Schemas as well. It is clear that you can and I've now found the relevant text again on page 11. 5) Errata Policy LG requires you to convert items to the most recent current printing *that has been approved for the campaign*. This is an important distinction that has been omitted. I don't know if it was deliberate but I think it's better to keep some control over such changes 6) Why doesn't extraordinary Artisan Apply to Homunculi? Does this mean that they now cost 2/3 book price or full book price? (Craft Homunculus is a feat that reduces the cost of getting one though perhaps not of creating one) 7) You can never retool a Ranger's Favoured Enemy choice... but you can drop the Ranger levels altogether. That seems really bizarre and arbitrary. 8) You could probably have left the non-Lion Spiritual Totems in. 9) You took my Ray of Stupidity! oh woe! oh woe! :D
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 12:06 PM	7) You can never retool a Ranger's Favoured Enemy choice... but you can drop the Ranger levels altogether. That seems really bizarre and arbitrary. Did I read this wrong? I assumed it was only the First level Favored Enemy that wasn't retoolable. If this isn't the case, then you could just 'retool' the class and remove the ranger levels. Then as part of retooling, take ranger again and choose a different Favored Enemy. Harliquinn
Cainin 08-07-07, 01:04 PM	So the only way for the campaign card drow players to access Drow of the Underdark in XE is through a story object? If so, then are retooling opportunities retroactive? For example, I just got a story object that opens up 2 feats and 1 prestige class of my choice from that book. Would I be able to retroactively re-feat myself and switch some of my levels into the prestige class?
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 01:52 PM	You can pretty much retool anything but 1) 1st Level Class 2) 1st Expansion Slot Choice 3) Race 4) Starting Attributes 5) Creation Card 6) Class Features (Though this is a little vague since there is a loophole)
lseelba 08-07-07, 02:19 PM	1) Is there any way to get a Psionic Tattoo without having used the Creation Card? [I want to spend an ESlot to unlock Psionic Tattoos of Expansion: can I?] Why are these tatoos being treated so differently from scrolls and potions? Skerrit said that the language about crawling tattoos was supposed to apply to both crawling and regular psionic tattoos. Therefore your Psionic Tattoo of Expansion is completely legal, costs one expansion slot, and is not subject to table variation (except maybe the duration lol). I believe it will be reiterated in the upcoming dispel confusion. What I want to know is if I can put a Psionic Tattoo of Expansion on my magebred warhorse :D On another topic, arachnomancer was unlocked in a CoL mod (one of the strangest story objects I've obtained). I don't know many people who are actually going to take that prestige class in the Covenant of Light, since it doesn't really fit with the faction, but it still needs clarification. -Lou
Hsien 08-07-07, 02:20 PM	I was hoping they would allow Magic item sets; just w/o the bonus abilities for more then one item in set. Oh well, probably just for simplicity purposes and to avoid any confusion it may be for the best. Look like the Augment Crystals for Armor/Weapons are allowed though, at least I didn't see them listed as restricted.
lseelba 08-07-07, 02:45 PM	Magic Item Sets: Magic Item sets are restricted in XEN’DRIK EXPEDITIONS. You may still buy individual pieces of a set, but your character gains no benefit for possessing multiple pieces of a set. The language isn't clear, but it looks like you can unlock and buy the individual pieces as you could almost any other item in the MIC.
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 02:45 PM	I was hoping they would allow Magic item sets; just w/o the bonus abilities for more then one item in set. Oh well, probably just for simplicity purposes and to avoid any confusion it may be for the best. Look like the Augment Crystals for Armor/Weapons are allowed though, at least I didn't see them listed as restricted. They do allow the items that are part of a Magic Item set. You just receive no special bonus for the whole set and each piece needs to be unlocked separately. In addition, you don't need to unlock the least/lesser Augment crystals to unlock the greater, nor do you need to unlock the synergy prerequisites before unlocking an ability.
bertman4 08-07-07, 04:41 PM	I can't remember and it's not entirely clear in the Standards, but are 10 charge wands of any type listed in a valid campaign source legal? Bertman
lseelba 08-07-07, 06:00 PM	This makes some items—like wands and staffs—seem impossibly expensive. When you buy a wand, staff, or any other consumable magic items with more than 5 charges or uses, you may choose to pay the standard published cost and have an item with 1/5th the charges (rounded down) of the described item. Crafted items must always be made with the maximum number of charges (note the exception for staves and wands listed in the Feats section in Character Creation). Craft Staff: When using this feat to purchase a staff at a discounted rate, you may choose to purchase a fully charged staff or a staff with 10 charges. Craft Wand: When using this feat to purchase a wand at a discounted rate, you may choose to purchase a fully charged wand or a wand with 10 charges. So basically: You can buy any consumable item with more than 5 charges for normal price, but with 1/5 charges. You may craft wands and staves with 1/5 charges. You may NOT craft any other item with 1/5 charges at a discount, though you may still buy them at normal price with 1/5 charges.
Skerrit 08-07-07, 07:03 PM	So the only way for the campaign card drow players to access Drow of the Underdark in XE is through a story object? If so, then are retooling opportunities retroactive? For example, I just got a story object that opens up 2 feats and 1 prestige class of my choice from that book. Would I be able to retroactively re-feat myself and switch some of my levels into the prestige class? Hmmm, I didn't know that Story Object existed. The Drow book was left off the approved list since the drow in it are very different from the Eberron drow, but it wasn't all out Restricted since some things in it might be cool. Given the nature of that Story Object expect the next Dispel Confusion, right after Gen Con, to restrict everything in Drow of the Underdark that is Lolth or Spider related (basically anything that is the FR or Greyhawk version of drow). Generic things should still be valid choices.
Mherduwynn 08-07-07, 08:41 PM	Greg and I will deal with this off list. However, a couple of points: 1) Arachnomancer is NOT in Drow of the Underdark. It is in the book Underdark (as noted in the story object). 2) The story object ONLY unlocks that prestige class. As with any other object or rules opening of this type, if the book it comes from is not unlockable, certain class features or items might be hampered. In this case, a few bonus spells are unattainable at the current time. 3) The item does NOT require the worship of Lolth nor does it require any setting-specific details. Drow in Eberron are not spider-centric but this story object does not even come from Drow NPCS. (Heck, the class isn't even limited to Drow.) 4) The story object gives nothing more than it says. I am not sure how much clearer that needs to be. I admit the class is limited to only evil characters BUT the story object does specifically note itself as an exception. Otherwise, why would it be a story object at all? In any case, people with a question about this should feel free to contact me. I will happily offer answers and advice. -August
Mherduwynn 08-07-07, 08:42 PM	On the topic of it being a strange story object, YES. That was sort of the point. Getting it requires the PCs to act like heroes. Sometimes, heroism reaps odd rewards. -A
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 08:43 AM	In any case, people with a question about this should feel free to contact me. I will happily offer answers and advice. -August Thanks August. Personally I *like* the story object. It won't be used by my character, but I think it is nice to have things 'out of the box.' My original question was only to clarify the part in the XECS that said that even Story Objects couldn't override the "restricted" list which seemed odd to me. John
Madfox11 08-08-07, 09:30 AM	1) Arachnomancer is NOT in Drow of the Underdark. It is in the book Underdark (as noted in the story object). Actually, quote from storyobject: "You?ve unlocked the arachnomancer prestige class (Drow of the Underdark, page 65)." So on paper it does unlock the Drow of the Underdark version which contains several big differences with the version from the Underdark book. The Drow version is also the newest version and by your own rules you always need to use the newest version. 2) The story object ONLY unlocks that prestige class. As with any other object or rules opening of this type, if the book it comes from is not unlockable, certain class features or items might be hampered. In this case, a few bonus spells are unattainable at the current time. The real problem being that the Drow of the Underdark version also requires a feat from the Drow of the Underdark book. Note that I personally have little stake in the story object. My goblin cleric of the Silver Flame wouldn't dream of becomg an arachnomancer ;)
Skerrit 08-08-07, 09:31 AM	That was to prevent us from accidentally giving something out we didn't intend to. Aracnomancer isn't specifically restricted, so there isn't a problem, especially since this version isn't evil.
Madfox11 08-08-07, 09:34 AM	That was to prevent us from accidentally giving something out we didn't intend to. Aracnomancer isn't specifically restricted, so there isn't a problem, especially since this version isn't evil. Well, the version used is very important. The Drow of the Underdark version requires a feat from the same source, but that feat is not unlocked by the story object.
Skerrit 08-08-07, 12:49 PM	I have not seen it, but I am told the Story Object says it specificially unlocks the version found in the FR book Underdark, and thus you do not need that feat.
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 01:37 PM	Here it is verbatim from my online character tracker: You've unlocked the arachnomancer prestige class (Drow of the Underdark, page 65). Unlocking this prestige class with this story object negates the class requirement of an evil alignment.
Mherduwynn 08-08-07, 02:53 PM	Which is very interesting, given that I wrote the document that should have been used for the story object and I wrote Underdark, NOT "Drow of the Underdark." Regardless, the version that should be used is the Underdark version. I am not sure how the mistake occurred but I assure you it will be fixed. In any case, I doubt seriously that this will impact that many players. It was intended to be an odd reward and a nifty new option for the few players that might wish to take the opportunity. -A
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 02:57 PM	August, Thanks for clarifying. Again, for the record, I don't think the story object causes any problems. I wish I could take advantage of certain unique story objects like this, but they don't fit my character at all :) I hope that you and the other factionmasters will continue to break the molds in both adventures and rewards. My only concern was the wording in the XECS that said Story Objects can't allow a restricted item. If this is indeed the case, that's fine also, but it just seemed 'odd' since I thought factionmasters had to at least approve any official story objects. John
zdrake 08-08-07, 09:37 PM	The "Favored in House" feat table only goes up to level 6. Since everyone is level 7 now, shouldn't we have a new Favored in House feat table? How can we know if we should take this feat or not if we don't know what it does?
Tabiani 08-08-07, 10:27 PM	The "Favored in House" feat table only goes up to level 6. Since everyone is level 7 now, shouldn't we have a new Favored in House feat table? How can we know if we should take this feat or not if we don't know what it does?Skerrit answered that in another thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900956). Use the level 6 ones for now, we'll slate that for the next Dispel Confusion that comes out after Gen Con.
Madfox11 08-09-07, 07:26 AM	August, I have a feeling the 'mistake' might have been made on purpose. It is certainly one of those things RPGA HQ has changed in the past in LG products. Underdark is (a) a relatively old product and (b) a Forgotten Realms product that only a small group of people will have (and if they don't getting hold of a copy might be rather difficult). For example, the shapechange rules have changed significantly between both versions and changing into spiders is a significant ability of the prestige class.
falcore51 08-09-07, 09:53 AM	I would have liked to see that if you unlock an augment crystal you can choose between the lesser, greater and normal at will. It would have made life a little simplier instead of having to retool which one you have access to at each level.