Questions Post GenCon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Questions Post GenCon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GentooPenguin
08-21-07, 04:01 PM So, GenCon was great, I thoroughly enjoyed all the games I played.

I do have some questions though.

One of the CERTs that we recieved from UnderMountain. It allows us to purchase one item at 50% off from the Magic Item Compendium. Is this item selected retoolable? Such as, if right now I purchased the Quiver of Energy, once my GPL is high enough, can I retool it for a Greater Death Crystal?

Also, for purposes of clarification, do Boots of Skirmishing and Haste stack? I don't read anywhere were it wouldn't allow the extra attacks to not stack, but I don't think the creators had in mind a Scout of Orien that can teleport and take a full attack after moving 20+ feet (for improved skirmish!).

I had other questions, but I can't recall them right off hand (I'm still a bit tired from GenCon).

On a side note, I'm curious if anyone has any side plans of what to do for the finale Expedition if they're not going to origins?
Skerrit
08-21-07, 05:46 PM [QUOTE=GentooPenguin;13497559]One of the CERTs that we recieved from UnderMountain. It allows us to purchase one item at 50% off from the Magic Item Compendium. Is this item selected retoolable? Such as, if right now I purchased the Quiver of Energy, once my GPL is high enough, can I retool it for a Greater Death Crystal?

Also, for purposes of clarification, do Boots of Skirmishing and Haste stack? I don't read anywhere were it wouldn't allow the extra attacks to not stack, but I don't think the creators had in mind a Scout of Orien that can teleport and take a full attack after moving 20+ feet (for improved skirmish!).
[QUOTE]

1) Nope. I don't have the cert in front of me, but I believe once you use the cert, it's used. You can't retool your choice.

2) Again, don't have books in front of me, but it sounds like DM call so your mileage may vary.
Timlagor
08-21-07, 06:40 PM Teleport shouldn't count for Skirmish (some GMs may be generous but it isn't supposed to).

I'm pretty certain Scout wasn't written with Action Surge in mind.

As written I believe you can use the boots to stack with haste.
Harliquinn
08-21-07, 07:31 PM I did ask customer service once about the issue with 'what triggers skirmish.' and their response was that as long as the scout was more than 10 (or 20) feet away from where they started, it didn't matter how they got there.

Harliquinn

What constitutes a character moving 10 feet to trigger such abilities as Skirmish? Does a character who uses Dimension Door (or similar ability) count as having moved if their destination is at least 10 feet away from their start? Does teleport (or similar ability) count? Does taking 2 5-foot-steps (Assuming you have a way to do so) count as moving 10 feet to trigger the ability?

John,

There has been some Errata to Skirmish, so I am going to cut and paste that for you here.

Page 12: Skirmish (class feature)
The second sentence of the skirmish class feature should read as follows new text indicated in ""): She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet "away from where she was at the start of her turn. The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted." This update should be made wherever the skirmish ability description is presented (see also pages 31, 56, and 177).

So it would not matter how you moved the 10' just that you were able to get ten feet from where you started before you attacked.
Timlagor
08-22-07, 02:25 AM Well it clearly matters if you did it on a mount.
Very few people would think you could do it while being carried or moved on a vehicle.

Teleport is more ambiguous but clearly it does matter how you got there.
Harliquinn
08-22-07, 09:59 AM I think the intention is that the skirmisher has to move of her own power (mounted, being carried, etc. would not count). However, teleport, dimension door, swift moves, etc. would count.
GentooPenguin
08-22-07, 11:02 AM Teleport shouldn't count for Skirmish (some GMs may be generous but it isn't supposed to).

I'm pretty certain Scout wasn't written with Action Surge in mind.

I'm not using action surge. I have a scout of house Orien with the Lesser Mark (d-leap and d-door). He's gone into Blade of Orien as his PrC, which gives him more uses of his least power (I'm at 4/day) and the ability to activate it as a move action to move half his range (which is still 40').

I also have the Chronocharm of the horizon walker that 1/day allows me to teleport half my movement (20') as a swift action.

I do have 1 d-door per day, but due to the stun effect, I don't/can't use it for skirmishing.

The PrC talks about scouts of Orien that go into the class to augment their movement abilities, so despite the telepoet debate with skirmish, it reads to me that's how it's meant to be used.

I agree with Harliquinn in that if it's movement under you own power, it should trigger Skirmish. I don't know that anyone has ever gotten a definitive answer from Wizards.
Harliquinn
08-22-07, 11:08 AM I agree with Harliquinn in that if it's movement under you own power, it should trigger Skirmish. I don't know that anyone has ever gotten a definitive answer from Wizards.

Just the customer service response I listed.
GentooPenguin
08-22-07, 01:08 PM Just the customer service response I listed.

*rereads*

Oh, right. I skimmed and missed the last line 'So it would not matter how you moved the 10' just that you were able to get ten feet from where you started before you attacked.'
Lilinthra
08-22-07, 01:39 PM One thing to keep in mind when using the skirmisher boots is that there is a restriction regarding mounted movement.
lseelba
08-26-07, 02:59 AM There is a lot of debate and table variation regarding teleportation and skirmish (and therefore the skirmish boots). Personally as I DM I would never allow haste and skirmish boots to stack.

Actually I take that back. I can think of at least one situation where they would stack (ie a character with pounce who charges, then uses their swift action to activate the boots). However I don't see how you could teleport as a swift action, use a full attack, and then use the boots as ANOTHER swift action. Do you have teleportation somehow as a free action?
echoota
08-26-07, 11:21 AM I'll happily let anyone use teleport or any other currently legal loophole to get multiple ranged skirmish attacks at my table.

That's the foundation of the class and what immediately brings a gleam to the eye of any player when they first encounter the class. Then that awful mounted errata was done, destroying short bow armed hun-like riding dog mounted halflings scouts everywhere.

I just don't see the scout as a viable class when compared to spell users unless it can output a lot of skirmish attacks in a single round.
lseelba
08-26-07, 02:44 PM I'll happily let anyone use teleport or any other currently legal loophole to get multiple ranged skirmish attacks at my table.

That's the foundation of the class and what immediately brings a gleam to the eye of any player when they first encounter the class. Then that awful mounted errata was done, destroying short bow armed hun-like riding dog mounted halflings scouts everywhere.

I just don't see the scout as a viable class when compared to spell users unless it can output a lot of skirmish attacks in a single round.

Skirmishers may need help later (in the teens etc.) but right now can be quite devastating. All you need is:
Dex 17
base attack bonus +6.
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Greater Manyshot (XPH)
Skirmisher Boots

Move, manyshot, skirmisher boots. Three attacks per round all with precision damage (2 attacks at -4, one attack at -0). Skirmisher Boots are so cheap you can pack two. I've seen skirmishers around the current level bump putting out more damage round after round than any of the other party members. (none have Greater Manyshot yet). Around level 9 you become a force to be reckoned with. Sample build:

Scout 1 Point Blank Shot
Scout 2
Scout 3 SOME FEAT
Ranger 1
Ranger 2 Rapid Shot
Ranger 3 Swift Hunter (CSc)
Ranger 4
Ranger 5
Ranger 6 Many Shot, Greater Manyshot

Your skirmish bonus is +3d6+2 with the boots. If you make your favored enemies undead or constructs you really can hurt those hard to kill enemies.
Shadowed Intent
08-26-07, 09:57 PM Move, manyshot, skirmisher boots. Three attacks per round all with precision damage (2 attacks at -4, one attack at -0).

There is a proviso in manyshot Special
Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

Improved skirmish (+2d6 and +2 AC if you move 20 ft) is nice if you are trying to deal damage with a scout.
lseelba
08-26-07, 11:25 PM There is a proviso in manyshot

Improved skirmish (+2d6 and +2 AC if you move 20 ft) is nice if you are trying to deal damage with a scout.

Improved skirmish would be a perfect feat for the feat slot I left blank:

Scout 1 Point Blank Shot
Scout 2
Scout 3 Improved Skirmish (CSc)
Ranger 1
Ranger 2 Rapid Shot
Ranger 3 Swift Hunter (CSc)
Ranger 4
Ranger 5
Ranger 6 Many Shot, Greater Manyshot (XPH)

Now you are at +5d6+2 on all your three skirmish attacks at level 9. Also Greater Manyshot takes care of the precision damage issue (its a great feat for a scout.)
echoota
08-27-07, 10:08 AM True, scout could be pretty effective if it can get it's skirmish into multiple shots per round, but that's the point. Rather than being mediocre or ok (at best) throughout the entire career of the scout, they deserve their glory days of those early and mid levels when they can wipe the field with first person shooter circle strafing type attacks, then the spellcasters will eclipse them and they can fade into the background.
Garden_State_Gamer
08-27-07, 12:56 PM During an encounter against my PCs, a Curst Scout used a move action to leap out of a tree and applied skirmish damage on the way down. He also suffered the falling damage, as the attack did not provide the opportunity to use tumble or jump to soften the fall. Not that it mattered, Fast Healing took care of most of the damage during the following rounds.

As a GM, I would rule that any kind of move action that displaces you from your current location by 10ft or more should count. I picture the movement as getting a better vantage point on your opponent to strike a more vulnerable location.

I don't understand why a mount would limit your Skirmish attack. The whole idea behind the class is mobile attacking. I guess they wanted to differentiate between a Scout and the Cavalier PrC.
echoota
08-28-07, 12:01 AM I don't understand why a mount would limit your Skirmish attack. The whole idea behind the class is mobile attacking. I guess they wanted to differentiate between a Scout and the Cavalier PrC.

They got rid of it because they wanted to stop the no-brainer combination of the rapid shot feat and skirmish. You use your mount to move the 10' and you take your full round action to kick off rapid shot. A human could pull this off at first level, which is the way it ought to be since Scout should be an awesome class, rather than just "meh", they are denying our right to awesomeness!
lseelba
08-28-07, 12:11 AM They got rid of it because they wanted to stop the no-brainer combination of the rapid shot feat and skirmish. You use your mount to move the 10' and you take your full round action to kick off rapid shot. A human could pull this off at first level, which is the way it ought to be since Scout should be an awesome class, rather than just "meh", they are denying our right to awesomeness!

Yep. With mounted combat, you your mount can move and you can still make a full ranged attack. However if your mount moves more than 5', you cannot make a full melee attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GentooPenguin 08-21-07, 04:01 PM	So, GenCon was great, I thoroughly enjoyed all the games I played. I do have some questions though. One of the CERTs that we recieved from UnderMountain. It allows us to purchase one item at 50% off from the Magic Item Compendium. Is this item selected retoolable? Such as, if right now I purchased the Quiver of Energy, once my GPL is high enough, can I retool it for a Greater Death Crystal? Also, for purposes of clarification, do Boots of Skirmishing and Haste stack? I don't read anywhere were it wouldn't allow the extra attacks to not stack, but I don't think the creators had in mind a Scout of Orien that can teleport and take a full attack after moving 20+ feet (for improved skirmish!). I had other questions, but I can't recall them right off hand (I'm still a bit tired from GenCon). On a side note, I'm curious if anyone has any side plans of what to do for the finale Expedition if they're not going to origins?
Skerrit 08-21-07, 05:46 PM	[QUOTE=GentooPenguin;13497559]One of the CERTs that we recieved from UnderMountain. It allows us to purchase one item at 50% off from the Magic Item Compendium. Is this item selected retoolable? Such as, if right now I purchased the Quiver of Energy, once my GPL is high enough, can I retool it for a Greater Death Crystal? Also, for purposes of clarification, do Boots of Skirmishing and Haste stack? I don't read anywhere were it wouldn't allow the extra attacks to not stack, but I don't think the creators had in mind a Scout of Orien that can teleport and take a full attack after moving 20+ feet (for improved skirmish!). [QUOTE] 1) Nope. I don't have the cert in front of me, but I believe once you use the cert, it's used. You can't retool your choice. 2) Again, don't have books in front of me, but it sounds like DM call so your mileage may vary.
Timlagor 08-21-07, 06:40 PM	Teleport shouldn't count for Skirmish (some GMs may be generous but it isn't supposed to). I'm pretty certain Scout wasn't written with Action Surge in mind. As written I believe you can use the boots to stack with haste.
Harliquinn 08-21-07, 07:31 PM	I did ask customer service once about the issue with 'what triggers skirmish.' and their response was that as long as the scout was more than 10 (or 20) feet away from where they started, it didn't matter how they got there. Harliquinn What constitutes a character moving 10 feet to trigger such abilities as Skirmish? Does a character who uses Dimension Door (or similar ability) count as having moved if their destination is at least 10 feet away from their start? Does teleport (or similar ability) count? Does taking 2 5-foot-steps (Assuming you have a way to do so) count as moving 10 feet to trigger the ability? John, There has been some Errata to Skirmish, so I am going to cut and paste that for you here. Page 12: Skirmish (class feature) The second sentence of the skirmish class feature should read as follows new text indicated in ""): She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet "away from where she was at the start of her turn. The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted." This update should be made wherever the skirmish ability description is presented (see also pages 31, 56, and 177). So it would not matter how you moved the 10' just that you were able to get ten feet from where you started before you attacked.
Timlagor 08-22-07, 02:25 AM	Well it clearly matters if you did it on a mount. Very few people would think you could do it while being carried or moved on a vehicle. Teleport is more ambiguous but clearly it does matter how you got there.
Harliquinn 08-22-07, 09:59 AM	I think the intention is that the skirmisher has to move of her own power (mounted, being carried, etc. would not count). However, teleport, dimension door, swift moves, etc. would count.
GentooPenguin 08-22-07, 11:02 AM	Teleport shouldn't count for Skirmish (some GMs may be generous but it isn't supposed to). I'm pretty certain Scout wasn't written with Action Surge in mind. I'm not using action surge. I have a scout of house Orien with the Lesser Mark (d-leap and d-door). He's gone into Blade of Orien as his PrC, which gives him more uses of his least power (I'm at 4/day) and the ability to activate it as a move action to move half his range (which is still 40'). I also have the Chronocharm of the horizon walker that 1/day allows me to teleport half my movement (20') as a swift action. I do have 1 d-door per day, but due to the stun effect, I don't/can't use it for skirmishing. The PrC talks about scouts of Orien that go into the class to augment their movement abilities, so despite the telepoet debate with skirmish, it reads to me that's how it's meant to be used. I agree with Harliquinn in that if it's movement under you own power, it should trigger Skirmish. I don't know that anyone has ever gotten a definitive answer from Wizards.
Harliquinn 08-22-07, 11:08 AM	I agree with Harliquinn in that if it's movement under you own power, it should trigger Skirmish. I don't know that anyone has ever gotten a definitive answer from Wizards. Just the customer service response I listed.
GentooPenguin 08-22-07, 01:08 PM	Just the customer service response I listed. rereads Oh, right. I skimmed and missed the last line 'So it would not matter how you moved the 10' just that you were able to get ten feet from where you started before you attacked.'
Lilinthra 08-22-07, 01:39 PM	One thing to keep in mind when using the skirmisher boots is that there is a restriction regarding mounted movement.
lseelba 08-26-07, 02:59 AM	There is a lot of debate and table variation regarding teleportation and skirmish (and therefore the skirmish boots). Personally as I DM I would never allow haste and skirmish boots to stack. Actually I take that back. I can think of at least one situation where they would stack (ie a character with pounce who charges, then uses their swift action to activate the boots). However I don't see how you could teleport as a swift action, use a full attack, and then use the boots as ANOTHER swift action. Do you have teleportation somehow as a free action?
echoota 08-26-07, 11:21 AM	I'll happily let anyone use teleport or any other currently legal loophole to get multiple ranged skirmish attacks at my table. That's the foundation of the class and what immediately brings a gleam to the eye of any player when they first encounter the class. Then that awful mounted errata was done, destroying short bow armed hun-like riding dog mounted halflings scouts everywhere. I just don't see the scout as a viable class when compared to spell users unless it can output a lot of skirmish attacks in a single round.
lseelba 08-26-07, 02:44 PM	I'll happily let anyone use teleport or any other currently legal loophole to get multiple ranged skirmish attacks at my table. That's the foundation of the class and what immediately brings a gleam to the eye of any player when they first encounter the class. Then that awful mounted errata was done, destroying short bow armed hun-like riding dog mounted halflings scouts everywhere. I just don't see the scout as a viable class when compared to spell users unless it can output a lot of skirmish attacks in a single round. Skirmishers may need help later (in the teens etc.) but right now can be quite devastating. All you need is: Dex 17 base attack bonus +6. Point Blank Shot Rapid Shot Manyshot Greater Manyshot (XPH) Skirmisher Boots Move, manyshot, skirmisher boots. Three attacks per round all with precision damage (2 attacks at -4, one attack at -0). Skirmisher Boots are so cheap you can pack two. I've seen skirmishers around the current level bump putting out more damage round after round than any of the other party members. (none have Greater Manyshot yet). Around level 9 you become a force to be reckoned with. Sample build: Scout 1 Point Blank Shot Scout 2 Scout 3 SOME FEAT Ranger 1 Ranger 2 Rapid Shot Ranger 3 Swift Hunter (CSc) Ranger 4 Ranger 5 Ranger 6 Many Shot, Greater Manyshot Your skirmish bonus is +3d6+2 with the boots. If you make your favored enemies undead or constructs you really can hurt those hard to kill enemies.
Shadowed Intent 08-26-07, 09:57 PM	Move, manyshot, skirmisher boots. Three attacks per round all with precision damage (2 attacks at -4, one attack at -0). There is a proviso in manyshot Special Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage. Improved skirmish (+2d6 and +2 AC if you move 20 ft) is nice if you are trying to deal damage with a scout.
lseelba 08-26-07, 11:25 PM	There is a proviso in manyshot Improved skirmish (+2d6 and +2 AC if you move 20 ft) is nice if you are trying to deal damage with a scout. Improved skirmish would be a perfect feat for the feat slot I left blank: Scout 1 Point Blank Shot Scout 2 Scout 3 Improved Skirmish (CSc) Ranger 1 Ranger 2 Rapid Shot Ranger 3 Swift Hunter (CSc) Ranger 4 Ranger 5 Ranger 6 Many Shot, Greater Manyshot (XPH) Now you are at +5d6+2 on all your three skirmish attacks at level 9. Also Greater Manyshot takes care of the precision damage issue (its a great feat for a scout.)
echoota 08-27-07, 10:08 AM	True, scout could be pretty effective if it can get it's skirmish into multiple shots per round, but that's the point. Rather than being mediocre or ok (at best) throughout the entire career of the scout, they deserve their glory days of those early and mid levels when they can wipe the field with first person shooter circle strafing type attacks, then the spellcasters will eclipse them and they can fade into the background.
Garden_State_Gamer 08-27-07, 12:56 PM	During an encounter against my PCs, a Curst Scout used a move action to leap out of a tree and applied skirmish damage on the way down. He also suffered the falling damage, as the attack did not provide the opportunity to use tumble or jump to soften the fall. Not that it mattered, Fast Healing took care of most of the damage during the following rounds. As a GM, I would rule that any kind of move action that displaces you from your current location by 10ft or more should count. I picture the movement as getting a better vantage point on your opponent to strike a more vulnerable location. I don't understand why a mount would limit your Skirmish attack. The whole idea behind the class is mobile attacking. I guess they wanted to differentiate between a Scout and the Cavalier PrC.
echoota 08-28-07, 12:01 AM	I don't understand why a mount would limit your Skirmish attack. The whole idea behind the class is mobile attacking. I guess they wanted to differentiate between a Scout and the Cavalier PrC. They got rid of it because they wanted to stop the no-brainer combination of the rapid shot feat and skirmish. You use your mount to move the 10' and you take your full round action to kick off rapid shot. A human could pull this off at first level, which is the way it ought to be since Scout should be an awesome class, rather than just "meh", they are denying our right to awesomeness!
lseelba 08-28-07, 12:11 AM	They got rid of it because they wanted to stop the no-brainer combination of the rapid shot feat and skirmish. You use your mount to move the 10' and you take your full round action to kick off rapid shot. A human could pull this off at first level, which is the way it ought to be since Scout should be an awesome class, rather than just "meh", they are denying our right to awesomeness! Yep. With mounted combat, you your mount can move and you can still make a full ranged attack. However if your mount moves more than 5', you cannot make a full melee attack.