Racial Substitution Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Racial Substitution Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
catsclaw
10-18-06, 02:42 AM The new campaign standards seem to have a real problem with racial substitution levels. As the guide states: You may choose to unlock the racial substitution levels for your race and starting class ... You must choose this option at 1st level ... This is the only method that your character can gain racial substitution levels short of a campaign card.

I was planning on playing a Changeling Cleric/Rogue in the Crimson Codex, starting with Cleric to get the Glyphbook. According to this document, there's no way to take the Changeling Rogue substitution levels if I do. Can this be right?

What's the reasoning behind this?
Randall Montgomery
10-18-06, 10:39 AM While I can't speak to the reason for the rule, I strongly suggest you take Rogue as your first level. You won't get the glyphbook with a cleric anyway, because Clerics don't have all knowledge skills as class skills, and you're missing out on about 24+ skill points. You could take the Education feat to get the glyphbook, but you can do that starting with Rogue, too. And keep in mind to actually use the glyphbook's +1 insight bonus, you need at least 1 rank in the knowledge skill (they can't be used untrained). So I suggest going with Rogue, taking the Education feat, and using the extra skill points to put one rank in every knowledge skill. Then, you can also take the Changling Rogue racial sub levels.
catsclaw
10-18-06, 11:40 AM You won't get the glyphbook with a cleric anyway, because Clerics don't have all knowledge skills as class skills, and you're missing out on about 24+ skill points.You can get the Glyphbook as a cleric if you choose Knowledge as one of your domains, which is what I'm planning.

You can argue that 24 skill points is better than the glyphbook, and I'd take the rogue level first if I could get the glyphbook at second level when I take cleric, but that won't work either.

The reason I settled on this way is that I'm going to be completely ineffective as a traditional rogue -- no open lock or trapfinding or DD and low dex so no combat skills. I'm taking the rogue levels for the disguise/bluff/sense motive skills and the racial substitution levels (check the level 3 substitution for a particularly nice Crimson Codex ability). As a cleric I'll have spells, so I won't be totally useless through the first level.
Lightblade
10-18-06, 11:50 AM You can argue that 24 skill points is better than the glyphbook

Make that 32 skill points. The Changling Rogue gets 10 + Int bonus skillpoints per level, compared to the cleric's 2 + Int. I've played a changeling rogue in the first CC mod and the DM's mark, and I was hardly useless. The D6 of sneak attack makes you not a horrible combatant, too. If you're really worried about the team not having a cleric at first, Take one for the Team for an adventure or two, until you get 2nd level.
catsclaw
10-18-06, 11:52 AM Will I be able to get the Crimson Glyphbook at a later level, though?
Lightblade
10-18-06, 11:58 AM No, unless you take the Educated feat. However: chances are someone at the table has a Glyphbook, right? For run of the mill Knowledge checks, what prevents someone from passing the book around and having everyone read it? Sure, in the case of IDing monsters in combat time, that's not feasable, but for your everyday knowledge checks, i don't see why the glyphbook can't be a shared resource.
Randall Montgomery
10-18-06, 02:01 PM You can get the Glyphbook as a cleric if you choose Knowledge as one of your domains, which is what I'm planning.

I stand corrected!

You can argue that 24 skill points is better than the glyphbook, and I'd take the rogue level first if I could get the glyphbook at second level when I take cleric, but that won't work either.

As a general rule, if I'm playing a multiclass character, I ALWAYS take the one that gives the higher skill points at 1st level. The only two things you get at 1st level that you can't get any other time are a full hit die and x4 skill points, so you might as well get as many skill points as you can (especially if the changling rogue gets 10 :eek: ). And like I said, this way you can afford to put those ranks into some knowledge skills so you can actually make use of them. Then, unless you really want it for flavor reasons, take a different domain for your cleric level.

The reason I settled on this way is that I'm going to be completely ineffective as a traditional rogue -- no open lock or trapfinding or DD and low dex so no combat skills. I'm taking the rogue levels for the disguise/bluff/sense motive skills and the racial substitution levels (check the level 3 substitution for a particularly nice Crimson Codex ability). As a cleric I'll have spells, so I won't be totally useless through the first level.

I would argue that the main reason your Rogue would be ineffective is a lack of skill points, which is largely mitigated by taking the class at 1st level. While you may not be able to keep up with those skills at later levels, at least you'll be able to cover the basics until your clerical spellcasting kicks in. I actually play a Rogue in Blackwheel who has no fighting capabilities whatsoever but is a total skill monkey, and she's been able to contribute quite substatiantally in the first two mods (even going toe-to-claw in melee; yeah, she went unconscious in 2 rounds, but she kept the guy from escaping)! So I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to contribute, I'd be very supprised if you can't craft this into a very playable character at all levels.
Lightblade
10-18-06, 02:42 PM I should point out that if you really want the glyphbook, a first level of bard is not a bad way to go. 6 + int beats the 2 + int you'd get as a Cleric, and if/when you do take Cleric levels, you won't have to take the Knowledge domain.

You can also get access to the Changling Rogue substitution levels with the Uncommon Changeling rewards card. I've based my CC character around that, and will be playing a rogue/psion/shadowmind.
catsclaw
10-18-06, 05:03 PM You can also get access to the Changling Rogue substitution levels with the Uncommon Changeling rewards card.Now this actually works. If I can find this card I can do this:

1st level Cleric
* Knowledge Domain
* Crimson Glyphbook
* Changeling feat from RoE on my expansion list (2 slots)

2nd level Changeling Rogue (from card)

3rd level Cleric
* 2nd Changeling feat from RoE on my expansion list (additional 2 slots)

I understand what everyone is saying about the extra skills the rogue gets at first level, but I think this just works better for the character.

Now to find an extra Uncommon Changeling card.
Lightblade
10-18-06, 06:21 PM If that's really what you want to do, i should point out that the Uncommon Changeling card also unlocks Personna Immersion, Quick Change, and Racial Emulation.
catsclaw
10-18-06, 07:42 PM If that's really what you want to do, i should point out that the Uncommon Changeling card also unlocks Personna Immersion, Quick Change, and Racial Emulation.Even better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 10-18-06, 02:42 AM	The new campaign standards seem to have a real problem with racial substitution levels. As the guide states: You may choose to unlock the racial substitution levels for your race and starting class ... You must choose this option at 1st level ... This is the only method that your character can gain racial substitution levels short of a campaign card. I was planning on playing a Changeling Cleric/Rogue in the Crimson Codex, starting with Cleric to get the Glyphbook. According to this document, there's no way to take the Changeling Rogue substitution levels if I do. Can this be right? What's the reasoning behind this?
Randall Montgomery 10-18-06, 10:39 AM	While I can't speak to the reason for the rule, I strongly suggest you take Rogue as your first level. You won't get the glyphbook with a cleric anyway, because Clerics don't have all knowledge skills as class skills, and you're missing out on about 24+ skill points. You could take the Education feat to get the glyphbook, but you can do that starting with Rogue, too. And keep in mind to actually use the glyphbook's +1 insight bonus, you need at least 1 rank in the knowledge skill (they can't be used untrained). So I suggest going with Rogue, taking the Education feat, and using the extra skill points to put one rank in every knowledge skill. Then, you can also take the Changling Rogue racial sub levels.
catsclaw 10-18-06, 11:40 AM	You won't get the glyphbook with a cleric anyway, because Clerics don't have all knowledge skills as class skills, and you're missing out on about 24+ skill points.You can get the Glyphbook as a cleric if you choose Knowledge as one of your domains, which is what I'm planning. You can argue that 24 skill points is better than the glyphbook, and I'd take the rogue level first if I could get the glyphbook at second level when I take cleric, but that won't work either. The reason I settled on this way is that I'm going to be completely ineffective as a traditional rogue -- no open lock or trapfinding or DD and low dex so no combat skills. I'm taking the rogue levels for the disguise/bluff/sense motive skills and the racial substitution levels (check the level 3 substitution for a particularly nice Crimson Codex ability). As a cleric I'll have spells, so I won't be totally useless through the first level.
Lightblade 10-18-06, 11:50 AM	You can argue that 24 skill points is better than the glyphbook Make that 32 skill points. The Changling Rogue gets 10 + Int bonus skillpoints per level, compared to the cleric's 2 + Int. I've played a changeling rogue in the first CC mod and the DM's mark, and I was hardly useless. The D6 of sneak attack makes you not a horrible combatant, too. If you're really worried about the team not having a cleric at first, Take one for the Team for an adventure or two, until you get 2nd level.
catsclaw 10-18-06, 11:52 AM	Will I be able to get the Crimson Glyphbook at a later level, though?
Lightblade 10-18-06, 11:58 AM	No, unless you take the Educated feat. However: chances are someone at the table has a Glyphbook, right? For run of the mill Knowledge checks, what prevents someone from passing the book around and having everyone read it? Sure, in the case of IDing monsters in combat time, that's not feasable, but for your everyday knowledge checks, i don't see why the glyphbook can't be a shared resource.
Randall Montgomery 10-18-06, 02:01 PM	You can get the Glyphbook as a cleric if you choose Knowledge as one of your domains, which is what I'm planning. I stand corrected! You can argue that 24 skill points is better than the glyphbook, and I'd take the rogue level first if I could get the glyphbook at second level when I take cleric, but that won't work either. As a general rule, if I'm playing a multiclass character, I ALWAYS take the one that gives the higher skill points at 1st level. The only two things you get at 1st level that you can't get any other time are a full hit die and x4 skill points, so you might as well get as many skill points as you can (especially if the changling rogue gets 10 :eek: ). And like I said, this way you can afford to put those ranks into some knowledge skills so you can actually make use of them. Then, unless you really want it for flavor reasons, take a different domain for your cleric level. The reason I settled on this way is that I'm going to be completely ineffective as a traditional rogue -- no open lock or trapfinding or DD and low dex so no combat skills. I'm taking the rogue levels for the disguise/bluff/sense motive skills and the racial substitution levels (check the level 3 substitution for a particularly nice Crimson Codex ability). As a cleric I'll have spells, so I won't be totally useless through the first level. I would argue that the main reason your Rogue would be ineffective is a lack of skill points, which is largely mitigated by taking the class at 1st level. While you may not be able to keep up with those skills at later levels, at least you'll be able to cover the basics until your clerical spellcasting kicks in. I actually play a Rogue in Blackwheel who has no fighting capabilities whatsoever but is a total skill monkey, and she's been able to contribute quite substatiantally in the first two mods (even going toe-to-claw in melee; yeah, she went unconscious in 2 rounds, but she kept the guy from escaping)! So I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to contribute, I'd be very supprised if you can't craft this into a very playable character at all levels.
Lightblade 10-18-06, 02:42 PM	I should point out that if you really want the glyphbook, a first level of bard is not a bad way to go. 6 + int beats the 2 + int you'd get as a Cleric, and if/when you do take Cleric levels, you won't have to take the Knowledge domain. You can also get access to the Changling Rogue substitution levels with the Uncommon Changeling rewards card. I've based my CC character around that, and will be playing a rogue/psion/shadowmind.
catsclaw 10-18-06, 05:03 PM	You can also get access to the Changling Rogue substitution levels with the Uncommon Changeling rewards card.Now this actually works. If I can find this card I can do this: 1st level Cleric * Knowledge Domain * Crimson Glyphbook * Changeling feat from RoE on my expansion list (2 slots) 2nd level Changeling Rogue (from card) 3rd level Cleric * 2nd Changeling feat from RoE on my expansion list (additional 2 slots) I understand what everyone is saying about the extra skills the rogue gets at first level, but I think this just works better for the character. Now to find an extra Uncommon Changeling card.
Lightblade 10-18-06, 06:21 PM	If that's really what you want to do, i should point out that the Uncommon Changeling card also unlocks Personna Immersion, Quick Change, and Racial Emulation.
catsclaw 10-18-06, 07:42 PM	If that's really what you want to do, i should point out that the Uncommon Changeling card also unlocks Personna Immersion, Quick Change, and Racial Emulation.Even better.