So let me get this straight.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

So let me get this straight.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Skole Morgenrood
12-05-06, 09:15 AM I can play a kalashtar ardent at 1st level if use my first level expansion slot and my next two slots on putchasing the base class ardent... Which also gives me access to any power specifically listed for the ardent from Complete Psionics?
grahamdrew
12-05-06, 09:36 AM It sounds like it, assuming you have a Campaign Card to unlock the Kalashtar race in the first place. Ardent isn't restricted and Complete Psionic is on the secondary source list.

I don't know anything about the Ardent specifically, though, so there's one thing worth noting:

Unlocking the Ardent base class in Complete Psionic doesn't unlock anything from the Expanded Psionic's Handbook. If the Ardent uses powers from the XPH, you're boned. Any feats you want to use from the XPH, you have to unlock them yourself. The base class only unlocks items from the same source as the base class. I'm not sure if that was the intent or not, but it's definitly the way it reads.

Andrew Beard
Lightblade
12-05-06, 09:56 AM The first part is definately true.

As to the second, i'd say it's very likely true, but I can't be 100% sure. Since an ardent gets his powers from mantles, I guess you'd have access to any powers in your chosen mantle, whether from XPH or from CP. (This is similar to the warmage, since his spell list is a mix of PHB and CA/SpC spells).

My problem with the "spells/powers/infusions/invocations from the book of the class" is with a class like the Favored Soul. In my mind, they should only get standard PHB spells without unlocks, but that rule could be interpreted to give them access to some of the Complete Divine spells (as printed in the Spell Compendium, i guess).
Lightblade
12-05-06, 09:58 AM It sounds like it, assuming you have a Campaign Card to unlock the Kalashtar race in the first place.

Andrew: Kalashtar no longer need a campaign card to play. However, playing them without the campaign card unlocks no XPH material.
grahamdrew
12-05-06, 10:22 AM Andrew: Kalashtar no longer need a campaign card to play. However, playing them without the campaign card unlocks no XPH material.

Huh?

Races from other sources, and kalashtar from the Eberron Campaign Setting, are restricted unless unlocked by a campaign card.

Andrew Beard
Lightblade
12-05-06, 10:26 AM That looks like a holdover from the old CS. Check out the grey box on the right side of page 5.
Skerrit
12-05-06, 10:31 AM The first part is definately true.

As to the second, i'd say it's very likely true, but I can't be 100% sure. Since an ardent gets his powers from mantles, I guess you'd have access to any powers in your chosen mantle, whether from XPH or from CP. (This is similar to the warmage, since his spell list is a mix of PHB and CA/SpC spells).

My problem with the "spells/powers/infusions/invocations from the book of the class" is with a class like the Favored Soul. In my mind, they should only get standard PHB spells without unlocks, but that rule could be interpreted to give them access to some of the Complete Divine spells (as printed in the Spell Compendium, i guess).

The key here is that PHB spells are generically available to all. So your favored soul only gets PHB spells unless they unlock a spell from a secondary source (like Complete Divine). I'd have to think on Ardents a bit, but if I recall they specifically list the powers they get, so they likely also unlock them by unlocking their class, but I don't have any books with me to double check.
grahamdrew
12-05-06, 10:32 AM I see what you're talking about now. I was actually looking at the sentence directly above the grey box on page 5, and mentally skipped the box less than an inch below it. :)

This definitely seems like a copy-and-paste error though. Was it present in the draft?

Andrew Beard
Lightblade
12-05-06, 10:40 AM IIRC, (i don't have a draft doc in front of me), while discussing the draft on the boards, someone said. "Cool, i can be a psion without a card. Any reason to keep kalashtar restricted?." A factionmaster thought about it and said: "Huh, no, guess not. I'll put that in the CS." So yeah, i guess that's an editing mistake to mark for cleanup when 2.0 comes around.
kiddoc
12-05-06, 02:11 PM IIRC, (i don't have a draft doc in front of me), while discussing the draft on the boards, someone said. "Cool, i can be a psion without a card. Any reason to keep kalashtar restricted?." A factionmaster thought about it and said: "Huh, no, guess not. I'll put that in the CS." So yeah, i guess that's an editing mistake to mark for cleanup when 2.0 comes around.

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, we haven't "unlocked" any races yet. And we specifically had a discussion about allowing this. Right now, we want to keep racial unlocks (regardless of the reasons behind them) in the hands of campaign cards. That, of course, is subject to change as we learn more about how players like/dislike and utilize the expansion slot unlock system.
Marcus Majarra
12-05-06, 03:24 PM IMHO, if a class is unlocked, so should all its class features. This includes a spell/power list. I believe there was mention of this in some of the MoH documentation, especially concerning expansion cards that unlocked class options. For example, if you took a level of Warmage, you'd unlock the entire Warmage spell list, from the book where the Warmage was printed (i.e. Complete Arcane). It's not any different from automatically unlocking specific bonus feats.

It's also logical based on content access. You're going to need the Complete Psionic and the XPH to play an Ardent whether you allow for the complete power list to be available or not.
Harliquinn
12-05-06, 03:26 PM That, of course, is subject to change as we learn more about how players like/dislike and utilize the expansion slot unlock system.

At first glance, I think the expansion slot unlock system is very broad and versatile, and I appreciate the work of the factionmasters. I think the different expansion slot costs for different unlocks makes sense from a balancing standpoint. I'm just not sure how it will all work out for a character though in actual play. My only concern would be a character not being able to take an option at the level they would qualify because they don't have a slot at that level due to the increase in expansion slots. I think it's too soon to call for any changes though until a lot of people have had a chance to use the system as presented.

Harliquinn
Harliquinn
12-05-06, 03:34 PM For example, if you took a level of Warmage, you'd unlock the entire Warmage spell list, from the book where the Warmage was printed (i.e. Complete Arcane). It's not any different from automatically unlocking specific bonus feats.

It's also logical based on content access. You're going to need the Complete Psionic and the XPH to play an Ardent whether you allow for the complete power list to be available or not.

I believe the Warmage works this way already. If you unlock warmage, you unlock their spell list in Complete Arcane and Player's Handbook by default. If, however, a warmage spell appeared in say, Dragon Magic, you'd need to use an expansion slot to unlock it.

The Ardent is a little more complicated (If I remember right) since its base rulebook isn't unlocked by default. However, the Ardent could unlock its power list from XPH and Complete Psionic, since the Ardent gets so few powers. It would only unlock the powers for the mantles chosen though and not 'all powers'
grahamdrew
12-05-06, 03:40 PM Actually, to the best of my knowledge, we haven't "unlocked" any races yet. And we specifically had a discussion about allowing this. Right now, we want to keep racial unlocks (regardless of the reasons behind them) in the hands of campaign cards. That, of course, is subject to change as we learn more about how players like/dislike and utilize the expansion slot unlock system.

Hmm. Does that mean Kalashtar are still restricted? I checked the Character Tracker and it seems like there's no Kalashtar option in the race dropdown (you still have to select the creation card option), so I would assume so.

Andrew Beard
Skerrit
12-05-06, 07:08 PM As the XECS 1.1 says, Kalashtar are not restricted but Psionic Kalashtar are. The line in the grey box clarifies the sentence above it. I'll make a note to reclarify in v2.0. Making them acceptable to the character tracking is on Chris' list of things to correct for us.
Randall Montgomery
12-06-06, 10:57 AM Ok, I have a situation that is directly related to this. I have a Kalashtar monk that used the creation card to unlock the race. Will I be able to retool this in order to remove the creation card and get those action points back?

Furthermore, my first two expansion slots I used to unlock the Kalashtar monk racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron. At second level, the monk gains a psionic bonus feat. However, if I don't use the creation card, all the psionic feats are still locked, and I would not be able to take any bonus feat at all under the current rules since I wouldn't have an expansion slot to unlock them. Am I stuck using the creation card, or is there some workaround for this?
kiddoc
12-06-06, 01:39 PM As the XECS 1.1 says, Kalashtar are not restricted but Psionic Kalashtar are. The line in the grey box clarifies the sentence above it. I'll make a note to reclarify in v2.0. Making them acceptable to the character tracking is on Chris' list of things to correct for us.

The erudite, Greg, of course is correct. Mea Culpa! :D
Skerrit
12-06-06, 01:58 PM Ok, I have a situation that is directly related to this. I have a Kalashtar monk that used the creation card to unlock the race. Will I be able to retool this in order to remove the creation card and get those action points back?

I am uncertain if the database will allow this, but I hope so. It is something we need to look into.

Furthermore, my first two expansion slots I used to unlock the Kalashtar monk racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron. At second level, the monk gains a psionic bonus feat. However, if I don't use the creation card, all the psionic feats are still locked, and I would not be able to take any bonus feat at all under the current rules since I wouldn't have an expansion slot to unlock them. Am I stuck using the creation card, or is there some workaround for this?

If you want to unlock all the psionic feats so you could take one at second level, you would indeed need to use the Kalashtar card.
Istaran
12-06-06, 05:36 PM While we're getting things straight..
Unlocking warmage unlocks several Sudden <metamagic> feats. It also unlocks several new spells, such as Fist of Stone and Lesser Orb of *.* that are also on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell lists in Complete Arcane.

According the XECS 1.1, unlocking warmage unlocks all spells and explicitly listed automatic/bonus feats listed for that class in that book, giving "unlimited access" to those spells and feats.

Therefore, if I want to play a wizard with eventually getting the Sudden Quicken feat, and perhaps a nice mix of new spells from the Complete Arcane, I can just spend my first three expansion slots on Warmage, and never take a level of the class. That lets me take three Sudden <metamagic> feats as my first three feats (assuming human) when I could normally only unlock two of them in that time (as 1st and 3rd level unlocks), and I have added spell options unlocked as a bonus.

It seems like these extra feats and spells should only be unlocked in context: in the warmage example, the Sudden <metamagic> feats would be able to be taken as automatic feats without otherwise unlocking them, and the warmage spells would be available as warmage spells but not implicitly unlocked in other contexts, such as taking them as wizard/sorc spells.

Similarly, you could take the approach of allowing bonus psionic feats to be taken without otherwise unlocking them, but only from the same book (or only from XPH if you thought that more appropriate.) That way people are not denied their bonus feats, but don't automatically unlock the whole psionic feat set as a side effect either.

Just a thought for 2.0.
Skerrit
12-06-06, 07:04 PM That's a good point, and pretty much the intention. You only unlock the class feature when you get to a level to take them. We'll look at clarifying it in v2.0.
Randall Montgomery
12-06-06, 10:13 PM If you want to unlock all the psionic feats so you could take one at second level, you would indeed need to use the Kalashtar card.

Really, I don't want to unlock ALL psionic feats, just one. The 2nd level Kalashtar monk bonus feat specifically says it unlocks a PSIONIC feat, so I'm kind of stuck with it. Since I've already spent the two slots to unlock the racial sub levels, I'm a little confused why the rules don't let me just unlock a single feat that I would meet the prereqs for, and leave the rest locked. It seems rather harsh that I unlock the racial sub levels and am then prevented from gaining one of the abilities. This would be the same for any character who would unlock a psion under these rules, as they would be completely unable to take their first level feat since all of the ones allowed are in the XPH, but none are listed specifically. Wouldn't it be better in situations such as these to allow a character to just give the character access to a single feat as a freebie, or even allow them to preemptively unlock a single feat that they meet the prereqs for, using future expansion slots? It would seem to fit better with what you're trying to do with these unlocked classes, and it would prevent those of us who are taking these classes and races from losing out on abilities we've already unlocked. I understand that you don't want people just grabbing any feats they want completely unchecked, but I can't believe there's not some comprimise that can be made.
Skerrit
12-06-06, 10:25 PM Basically, the advantage of using one of the psionic cards is that you can effectively start as a psionic PC and start with more things unlocked than another PC. That's why the creation cards are good. If you get to unlock feats and classes and substitution levels all for unlocking one of those, there is substantially less use for those creation cards.
Randall Montgomery
12-06-06, 10:47 PM Basically, the advantage of using one of the psionic cards is that you can effectively start as a psionic PC and start with more things unlocked than another PC. That's why the creation cards are good. If you get to unlock feats and classes and substitution levels all for unlocking one of those, there is substantially less use for those creation cards.

This is kind of my point. I didn't start as a psionic character, I only used the card (which costs three action points) so I could play a Kalashtar. Yes, the creation card unlocks the entire XPH, but I only need to unlock one feat so I can use my racial sub level's bonus feat. One feat for three action points seems pretty steep. According to what you're saying, the only way for a psion to get their first level bonus feat is for them to use this card, which locks them into playing a kalashtar. It seems to me this totally defeats the purpose of allowing people to unlock non-core classes.

As I said before, I get that you're trying to keep things balanced, and I don't want to seem ungrateful for the hard work and dedication you and all the other faction masters have put into this campaing, but I just don't understand this decision.
Randall Montgomery
12-07-06, 10:41 AM I was thinking about this some more, and another idea occured to me. Would it be possible, in situations such as these where you would gain a non-specified bonus feat from a secondary source and have no expansion slots left to unlock them, that you could delay taking the bonus feat until you reach a level where you have an open expansion slot. Then make it manditory for players who do this to unlock the feat using the first available expansion slot. This still imposes a temporary penalty for those players who take this option, giving those players who want to use a creation card a slight edge, but for those of us who only want to unlock one or two items from a secondary source, it's still cheaper in the long run.
HagerHobbit
12-11-06, 03:28 PM This is kind of my point. I didn't start as a psionic character, I only used the card (which costs three action points) so I could play a Kalashtar. Yes, the creation card unlocks the entire XPH, but I only need to unlock one feat so I can use my racial sub level's bonus feat. One feat for three action points seems pretty steep. According to what you're saying, the only way for a psion to get their first level bonus feat is for them to use this card, which locks them into playing a kalashtar. It seems to me this totally defeats the purpose of allowing people to unlock non-core classes.

Ok, first of all if the Creation Card unlocks the Entire XPH you're fine, no Expansion Points needed for the Feat or the Race. (If the Feat comes from there.)

To unlock a racial substitution level you would need to spend 2 Expansion Slots.

This is explained a little bit further on Page 12 of the Campaign Standards (it's in the Box)

And no, you can't 'wait' to use to spend the Feat slot later...this would be like a Fighter waiting until the higher levels to obtain feats that have BAB requirements. If you can't 'afford' it at the point it's given...then you pretty much have to wait. Though if they do another...fix character thing you can do it at that point.
Marcus Majarra
12-12-06, 11:31 PM If I can make a friendly suggestion:

Taking a level in a class or PrC automatically unlocks all class features, including spell/power lists in the book the class is printed. If a class' spell/power list is that of another class (ex.: favored soul uses the cleric spell list), then you default to the spell/power list from the other class, in the book the other class was printed (ex.: the favored soul's normal spell list is that of the PHB cleric).

I would also recommend that the XPH psionics sections be considered a limited resource for any character taking levels in a psionic class. The reason for this is simple: the XPH is core (i.e. you can find it in the SRD).

Similarly, I would allow Soulborns to freely take Incarnum feats as bonus feats at the given levels for the class. If you want to simplify this ruling, class bonus feats of a specific type should be unlocked from the core source for feats of that type, for the purpose of taking those bonus feats in the first place.

In this fashion, characters with levels in psionic classes would be eligible to take any psionic feat from the XPH whenever they would be entitled to a bonus psionic feat. Characters with levels in incarnum classes would be eligible to take any incarnum feat from Magic of Incarnum whenever they would be entitled to a bonus incarnum feat.

I would also suggest that class features are unlocked for that character from the level that class feature is first acquired. For example, Sudden Empower would only be unlocked for a Warmage after taking the 7th level in the class. Of course, class spell/power lists are gained the moment the character takes the first level in the class, as normal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skole Morgenrood 12-05-06, 09:15 AM	I can play a kalashtar ardent at 1st level if use my first level expansion slot and my next two slots on putchasing the base class ardent... Which also gives me access to any power specifically listed for the ardent from Complete Psionics?
grahamdrew 12-05-06, 09:36 AM	It sounds like it, assuming you have a Campaign Card to unlock the Kalashtar race in the first place. Ardent isn't restricted and Complete Psionic is on the secondary source list. I don't know anything about the Ardent specifically, though, so there's one thing worth noting: Unlocking the Ardent base class in Complete Psionic doesn't unlock anything from the Expanded Psionic's Handbook. If the Ardent uses powers from the XPH, you're boned. Any feats you want to use from the XPH, you have to unlock them yourself. The base class only unlocks items from the same source as the base class. I'm not sure if that was the intent or not, but it's definitly the way it reads. Andrew Beard
Lightblade 12-05-06, 09:56 AM	The first part is definately true. As to the second, i'd say it's very likely true, but I can't be 100% sure. Since an ardent gets his powers from mantles, I guess you'd have access to any powers in your chosen mantle, whether from XPH or from CP. (This is similar to the warmage, since his spell list is a mix of PHB and CA/SpC spells). My problem with the "spells/powers/infusions/invocations from the book of the class" is with a class like the Favored Soul. In my mind, they should only get standard PHB spells without unlocks, but that rule could be interpreted to give them access to some of the Complete Divine spells (as printed in the Spell Compendium, i guess).
Lightblade 12-05-06, 09:58 AM	It sounds like it, assuming you have a Campaign Card to unlock the Kalashtar race in the first place. Andrew: Kalashtar no longer need a campaign card to play. However, playing them without the campaign card unlocks no XPH material.
grahamdrew 12-05-06, 10:22 AM	Andrew: Kalashtar no longer need a campaign card to play. However, playing them without the campaign card unlocks no XPH material. Huh? Races from other sources, and kalashtar from the Eberron Campaign Setting, are restricted unless unlocked by a campaign card. Andrew Beard
Lightblade 12-05-06, 10:26 AM	That looks like a holdover from the old CS. Check out the grey box on the right side of page 5.
Skerrit 12-05-06, 10:31 AM	The first part is definately true. As to the second, i'd say it's very likely true, but I can't be 100% sure. Since an ardent gets his powers from mantles, I guess you'd have access to any powers in your chosen mantle, whether from XPH or from CP. (This is similar to the warmage, since his spell list is a mix of PHB and CA/SpC spells). My problem with the "spells/powers/infusions/invocations from the book of the class" is with a class like the Favored Soul. In my mind, they should only get standard PHB spells without unlocks, but that rule could be interpreted to give them access to some of the Complete Divine spells (as printed in the Spell Compendium, i guess). The key here is that PHB spells are generically available to all. So your favored soul only gets PHB spells unless they unlock a spell from a secondary source (like Complete Divine). I'd have to think on Ardents a bit, but if I recall they specifically list the powers they get, so they likely also unlock them by unlocking their class, but I don't have any books with me to double check.
grahamdrew 12-05-06, 10:32 AM	I see what you're talking about now. I was actually looking at the sentence directly above the grey box on page 5, and mentally skipped the box less than an inch below it. :) This definitely seems like a copy-and-paste error though. Was it present in the draft? Andrew Beard
Lightblade 12-05-06, 10:40 AM	IIRC, (i don't have a draft doc in front of me), while discussing the draft on the boards, someone said. "Cool, i can be a psion without a card. Any reason to keep kalashtar restricted?." A factionmaster thought about it and said: "Huh, no, guess not. I'll put that in the CS." So yeah, i guess that's an editing mistake to mark for cleanup when 2.0 comes around.
kiddoc 12-05-06, 02:11 PM	IIRC, (i don't have a draft doc in front of me), while discussing the draft on the boards, someone said. "Cool, i can be a psion without a card. Any reason to keep kalashtar restricted?." A factionmaster thought about it and said: "Huh, no, guess not. I'll put that in the CS." So yeah, i guess that's an editing mistake to mark for cleanup when 2.0 comes around. Actually, to the best of my knowledge, we haven't "unlocked" any races yet. And we specifically had a discussion about allowing this. Right now, we want to keep racial unlocks (regardless of the reasons behind them) in the hands of campaign cards. That, of course, is subject to change as we learn more about how players like/dislike and utilize the expansion slot unlock system.
Marcus Majarra 12-05-06, 03:24 PM	IMHO, if a class is unlocked, so should all its class features. This includes a spell/power list. I believe there was mention of this in some of the MoH documentation, especially concerning expansion cards that unlocked class options. For example, if you took a level of Warmage, you'd unlock the entire Warmage spell list, from the book where the Warmage was printed (i.e. Complete Arcane). It's not any different from automatically unlocking specific bonus feats. It's also logical based on content access. You're going to need the Complete Psionic and the XPH to play an Ardent whether you allow for the complete power list to be available or not.
Harliquinn 12-05-06, 03:26 PM	That, of course, is subject to change as we learn more about how players like/dislike and utilize the expansion slot unlock system. At first glance, I think the expansion slot unlock system is very broad and versatile, and I appreciate the work of the factionmasters. I think the different expansion slot costs for different unlocks makes sense from a balancing standpoint. I'm just not sure how it will all work out for a character though in actual play. My only concern would be a character not being able to take an option at the level they would qualify because they don't have a slot at that level due to the increase in expansion slots. I think it's too soon to call for any changes though until a lot of people have had a chance to use the system as presented. Harliquinn
Harliquinn 12-05-06, 03:34 PM	For example, if you took a level of Warmage, you'd unlock the entire Warmage spell list, from the book where the Warmage was printed (i.e. Complete Arcane). It's not any different from automatically unlocking specific bonus feats. It's also logical based on content access. You're going to need the Complete Psionic and the XPH to play an Ardent whether you allow for the complete power list to be available or not. I believe the Warmage works this way already. If you unlock warmage, you unlock their spell list in Complete Arcane and Player's Handbook by default. If, however, a warmage spell appeared in say, Dragon Magic, you'd need to use an expansion slot to unlock it. The Ardent is a little more complicated (If I remember right) since its base rulebook isn't unlocked by default. However, the Ardent could unlock its power list from XPH and Complete Psionic, since the Ardent gets so few powers. It would only unlock the powers for the mantles chosen though and not 'all powers'
grahamdrew 12-05-06, 03:40 PM	Actually, to the best of my knowledge, we haven't "unlocked" any races yet. And we specifically had a discussion about allowing this. Right now, we want to keep racial unlocks (regardless of the reasons behind them) in the hands of campaign cards. That, of course, is subject to change as we learn more about how players like/dislike and utilize the expansion slot unlock system. Hmm. Does that mean Kalashtar are still restricted? I checked the Character Tracker and it seems like there's no Kalashtar option in the race dropdown (you still have to select the creation card option), so I would assume so. Andrew Beard
Skerrit 12-05-06, 07:08 PM	As the XECS 1.1 says, Kalashtar are not restricted but Psionic Kalashtar are. The line in the grey box clarifies the sentence above it. I'll make a note to reclarify in v2.0. Making them acceptable to the character tracking is on Chris' list of things to correct for us.
Randall Montgomery 12-06-06, 10:57 AM	Ok, I have a situation that is directly related to this. I have a Kalashtar monk that used the creation card to unlock the race. Will I be able to retool this in order to remove the creation card and get those action points back? Furthermore, my first two expansion slots I used to unlock the Kalashtar monk racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron. At second level, the monk gains a psionic bonus feat. However, if I don't use the creation card, all the psionic feats are still locked, and I would not be able to take any bonus feat at all under the current rules since I wouldn't have an expansion slot to unlock them. Am I stuck using the creation card, or is there some workaround for this?
kiddoc 12-06-06, 01:39 PM	As the XECS 1.1 says, Kalashtar are not restricted but Psionic Kalashtar are. The line in the grey box clarifies the sentence above it. I'll make a note to reclarify in v2.0. Making them acceptable to the character tracking is on Chris' list of things to correct for us. The erudite, Greg, of course is correct. Mea Culpa! :D
Skerrit 12-06-06, 01:58 PM	Ok, I have a situation that is directly related to this. I have a Kalashtar monk that used the creation card to unlock the race. Will I be able to retool this in order to remove the creation card and get those action points back? I am uncertain if the database will allow this, but I hope so. It is something we need to look into. Furthermore, my first two expansion slots I used to unlock the Kalashtar monk racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron. At second level, the monk gains a psionic bonus feat. However, if I don't use the creation card, all the psionic feats are still locked, and I would not be able to take any bonus feat at all under the current rules since I wouldn't have an expansion slot to unlock them. Am I stuck using the creation card, or is there some workaround for this? If you want to unlock all the psionic feats so you could take one at second level, you would indeed need to use the Kalashtar card.
Istaran 12-06-06, 05:36 PM	While we're getting things straight.. Unlocking warmage unlocks several Sudden <metamagic> feats. It also unlocks several new spells, such as Fist of Stone and Lesser Orb of . that are also on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell lists in Complete Arcane. According the XECS 1.1, unlocking warmage unlocks all spells and explicitly listed automatic/bonus feats listed for that class in that book, giving "unlimited access" to those spells and feats. Therefore, if I want to play a wizard with eventually getting the Sudden Quicken feat, and perhaps a nice mix of new spells from the Complete Arcane, I can just spend my first three expansion slots on Warmage, and never take a level of the class. That lets me take three Sudden <metamagic> feats as my first three feats (assuming human) when I could normally only unlock two of them in that time (as 1st and 3rd level unlocks), and I have added spell options unlocked as a bonus. It seems like these extra feats and spells should only be unlocked in context: in the warmage example, the Sudden <metamagic> feats would be able to be taken as automatic feats without otherwise unlocking them, and the warmage spells would be available as warmage spells but not implicitly unlocked in other contexts, such as taking them as wizard/sorc spells. Similarly, you could take the approach of allowing bonus psionic feats to be taken without otherwise unlocking them, but only from the same book (or only from XPH if you thought that more appropriate.) That way people are not denied their bonus feats, but don't automatically unlock the whole psionic feat set as a side effect either. Just a thought for 2.0.
Skerrit 12-06-06, 07:04 PM	That's a good point, and pretty much the intention. You only unlock the class feature when you get to a level to take them. We'll look at clarifying it in v2.0.
Randall Montgomery 12-06-06, 10:13 PM	If you want to unlock all the psionic feats so you could take one at second level, you would indeed need to use the Kalashtar card. Really, I don't want to unlock ALL psionic feats, just one. The 2nd level Kalashtar monk bonus feat specifically says it unlocks a PSIONIC feat, so I'm kind of stuck with it. Since I've already spent the two slots to unlock the racial sub levels, I'm a little confused why the rules don't let me just unlock a single feat that I would meet the prereqs for, and leave the rest locked. It seems rather harsh that I unlock the racial sub levels and am then prevented from gaining one of the abilities. This would be the same for any character who would unlock a psion under these rules, as they would be completely unable to take their first level feat since all of the ones allowed are in the XPH, but none are listed specifically. Wouldn't it be better in situations such as these to allow a character to just give the character access to a single feat as a freebie, or even allow them to preemptively unlock a single feat that they meet the prereqs for, using future expansion slots? It would seem to fit better with what you're trying to do with these unlocked classes, and it would prevent those of us who are taking these classes and races from losing out on abilities we've already unlocked. I understand that you don't want people just grabbing any feats they want completely unchecked, but I can't believe there's not some comprimise that can be made.
Skerrit 12-06-06, 10:25 PM	Basically, the advantage of using one of the psionic cards is that you can effectively start as a psionic PC and start with more things unlocked than another PC. That's why the creation cards are good. If you get to unlock feats and classes and substitution levels all for unlocking one of those, there is substantially less use for those creation cards.
Randall Montgomery 12-06-06, 10:47 PM	Basically, the advantage of using one of the psionic cards is that you can effectively start as a psionic PC and start with more things unlocked than another PC. That's why the creation cards are good. If you get to unlock feats and classes and substitution levels all for unlocking one of those, there is substantially less use for those creation cards. This is kind of my point. I didn't start as a psionic character, I only used the card (which costs three action points) so I could play a Kalashtar. Yes, the creation card unlocks the entire XPH, but I only need to unlock one feat so I can use my racial sub level's bonus feat. One feat for three action points seems pretty steep. According to what you're saying, the only way for a psion to get their first level bonus feat is for them to use this card, which locks them into playing a kalashtar. It seems to me this totally defeats the purpose of allowing people to unlock non-core classes. As I said before, I get that you're trying to keep things balanced, and I don't want to seem ungrateful for the hard work and dedication you and all the other faction masters have put into this campaing, but I just don't understand this decision.
Randall Montgomery 12-07-06, 10:41 AM	I was thinking about this some more, and another idea occured to me. Would it be possible, in situations such as these where you would gain a non-specified bonus feat from a secondary source and have no expansion slots left to unlock them, that you could delay taking the bonus feat until you reach a level where you have an open expansion slot. Then make it manditory for players who do this to unlock the feat using the first available expansion slot. This still imposes a temporary penalty for those players who take this option, giving those players who want to use a creation card a slight edge, but for those of us who only want to unlock one or two items from a secondary source, it's still cheaper in the long run.
HagerHobbit 12-11-06, 03:28 PM	This is kind of my point. I didn't start as a psionic character, I only used the card (which costs three action points) so I could play a Kalashtar. Yes, the creation card unlocks the entire XPH, but I only need to unlock one feat so I can use my racial sub level's bonus feat. One feat for three action points seems pretty steep. According to what you're saying, the only way for a psion to get their first level bonus feat is for them to use this card, which locks them into playing a kalashtar. It seems to me this totally defeats the purpose of allowing people to unlock non-core classes. Ok, first of all if the Creation Card unlocks the Entire XPH you're fine, no Expansion Points needed for the Feat or the Race. (If the Feat comes from there.) To unlock a racial substitution level you would need to spend 2 Expansion Slots. This is explained a little bit further on Page 12 of the Campaign Standards (it's in the Box) And no, you can't 'wait' to use to spend the Feat slot later...this would be like a Fighter waiting until the higher levels to obtain feats that have BAB requirements. If you can't 'afford' it at the point it's given...then you pretty much have to wait. Though if they do another...fix character thing you can do it at that point.
Marcus Majarra 12-12-06, 11:31 PM	If I can make a friendly suggestion: Taking a level in a class or PrC automatically unlocks all class features, including spell/power lists in the book the class is printed. If a class' spell/power list is that of another class (ex.: favored soul uses the cleric spell list), then you default to the spell/power list from the other class, in the book the other class was printed (ex.: the favored soul's normal spell list is that of the PHB cleric). I would also recommend that the XPH psionics sections be considered a limited resource for any character taking levels in a psionic class. The reason for this is simple: the XPH is core (i.e. you can find it in the SRD). Similarly, I would allow Soulborns to freely take Incarnum feats as bonus feats at the given levels for the class. If you want to simplify this ruling, class bonus feats of a specific type should be unlocked from the core source for feats of that type, for the purpose of taking those bonus feats in the first place. In this fashion, characters with levels in psionic classes would be eligible to take any psionic feat from the XPH whenever they would be entitled to a bonus psionic feat. Characters with levels in incarnum classes would be eligible to take any incarnum feat from Magic of Incarnum whenever they would be entitled to a bonus incarnum feat. I would also suggest that class features are unlocked for that character from the level that class feature is first acquired. For example, Sudden Empower would only be unlocked for a Warmage after taking the 7th level in the class. Of course, class spell/power lists are gained the moment the character takes the first level in the class, as normal.