Post/Author/DateTime	Post
waynemarkstubbs 08-12-06, 11:21 AM	So, has the Totally Amazing, Totally Forgivable, Utterly Unforseeable reason why yet another RPGA campaign sputtered into life half-cocked and late been revealed yet? I await it with literally some interest...
JJeff 08-12-06, 11:56 AM	Me? I just want to know how, in Well of Woe, evil CoS characters can escape the Detect Evil of the CoL paladins....
Sieylianna 08-12-06, 09:56 PM	So, has the Totally Amazing, Totally Forgivable, Utterly Unforseeable reason why yet another RPGA campaign sputtered into life half-cocked and late been revealed yet? I await it with literally some interest... SRM gave his two weeks notice in mid-July. I heard it almost a month ago, but it was supposed to be kept quiet until the members meeting. Ed
Sieylianna 08-12-06, 10:03 PM	Me? I just want to know how, in Well of Woe, evil CoS characters can escape the Detect Evil of the CoL paladins.... I talked to people who played separate tables of Well of Woe at Gen Con and both indicated that PvP conflicts between factions ruined their table. (I'm not surprised, because I think the typical player isn't mature enough to handle PvP or evil alignments). One is ready to give up on XE entirely because of it. Ed
Ishorn 08-13-06, 07:30 AM	I was at Gen Con and played with a group with many different alignments and we did not have any problems. There were no PVP at my table. Friday, I did run into some Living Greyhawkers at the food court that stated their objective for the day was to ruin a Xen'drik Expedition game. These were people in their early twenties. This just shows the rest of the world that they are right about us that we are nothing but a bunch of people stuck in our childhoods and afraid to grow up and face reality. I just wish that gamers would learn to be mature and to accept gaming in any form.
Ishorn 08-13-06, 07:42 AM	I do not think that SRM leaving is a bad thing. I am hoping that he finds another marketing job.
Sianger 08-13-06, 09:26 AM	I was at Gen Con and played with a group with many different alignments and we did not have any problems. There were no PVP at my table. Friday, I did run into some Living Greyhawkers at the food court that stated their objective for the day was to ruin a Xen'drik Expedition game. These were people in their early twenties. This just shows the rest of the world that they are right about us that we are nothing but a bunch of people stuck in our childhoods and afraid to grow up and face reality. I just wish that gamers would learn to be mature and to accept gaming in any form. Oh man. That is just disgusting. Hmm. I wonder if the PvP at the Well of Woe tables was due more to the evil characters or the non-evil ones. Or simply due to people being from different factions. If it was due to the evil characters, then well... Cabal of Shadows should really have a warning that states "For Mature, Experienced Players ONLY". And if it was due to the others, something is pretty screwed-up. I do sincerely hope that we can get over these issues, because the XE idea is a genuinely interesting one... I'd hate to see it canned because of some immature players somewhere.
JJeff 08-13-06, 10:22 AM	I don't think the warning sign should be only on the CoS... A paladin from CoL who detects Evil and finds out the 'honest merchant from Sharn' that is beside him is evil would have issues because of the Paladin's Code. I think there should be a four-faction wide method to stop alignment detection.... Because this would cause issues without RP-ing coming into play ie, PvP starts not because I acted evil or did something in-game that is just plain wrong, but because some spell or class ability says I'm evil...
Ishorn 08-13-06, 11:36 AM	We had a Drow Paladin in our group for the CoS adventures and we had evil characters too. Eberron is not a setting where alignment is meant to be what dictates your characters motives. As for PVP it is more than likely that this happened because of people wanting to disrupt the campaign. I have only had one PVP encounter and that was in the Living Greyhawk campaign and that is because I play a monk from the Scarlet Brotherhood. I handed the guy his behind and he no longer had a problem where my character was from. I am finding more and more that the maturity level of the RPGA is way low and these people are usually 20 plus years old. It is just a game get over it.
Sieylianna 08-13-06, 12:40 PM	Hmm. I wonder if the PvP at the Well of Woe tables was due more to the evil characters or the non-evil ones. Or simply due to people being from different factions. If it was due to the evil characters, then well... Cabal of Shadows should really have a warning that states "For Mature, Experienced Players ONLY". And if it was due to the others, something is pretty screwed-up. One table had two members for each of three different factions. I believe the other was Covenant of Light versus Cabal of Shadows. Ed
The_Jester 08-13-06, 02:25 PM	I was at Gen Con and played with a group with many different alignments and we did not have any problems. There were no PVP at my table. Friday, I did run into some Living Greyhawkers at the food court that stated their objective for the day was to ruin a Xen'drik Expedition game. These were people in their early twenties. This just shows the rest of the world that they are right about us that we are nothing but a bunch of people stuck in our childhoods and afraid to grow up and face reality. I just wish that gamers would learn to be mature and to accept gaming in any form. I think this is a problem with people in general. Humanity, as a rule, does not play well together and enjoys spoiling the fun of others. Greyhawk is seen by some as superiour to Eberron; there's elitist picking of sides and grouping of people. But it's no worse than fans of different football teams ("You're going DOWN Eberron!" "No, we're dropping YOU, LG. See you in your endzone!"). *sigh*
Ishorn 08-13-06, 05:01 PM	I was talking to a fan of Living Greyhawk at Gen Con and he said that the RPGA would never drop Living Greyhawk and it would survive no matter what. I heard the same thing about Living City just before the RPGA dropped it. Wonder where Living City is today. These D&D campaigns are the way the RPGA wants to go. So people might as well get use to it. I begged Ian for a Living Eberron campaign and he just chuckled and shook his head. Living Campaigns are too hard to manage. There is a reason the Stephan Radney McFarland introduced the Bright Desert campaign. People need to see the hand writing on the wall and get over it.
The_Jester 08-13-06, 08:16 PM	LG is going to die! 4th Edition is coming out next year! The Realms are being phased out for Eberron! I think I felt a bit of the sky fall on me! Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not going to put my reputation on the line saying a HUGE statement like any of the above are close to true without interviewing some BIG people. It's just speculation. No, it's worse than speculation. It's just rambling. Big ol' "end of the world is nigh" rambling. Saying something like "Dark Sun won't see another published book. Ever." is pretty safe. But seeing the Bright Sands mod as "writing on the wall" is stretching it. I see Living Greyhawk going on a few more years. It's a setting with history that there are alot of books on and some official support yet the RPGA has almost free reign to play with it. They can't do much with Legacy of the Green Regent or Xen'drik Expeditions that will affectc the setting. Nothing the players do will likely see mention in the next version of the Campaign Setting. But if they wanted to they could change Greyhawk. And the hints are that the Bright Desert need not always be a desert. Will it last forever? Doubtful. Nothing does. But is the end coming? Not likely, Triads are already working on mods for 2007. That means even if they don't write another word after that we'll have valid adventuring until the end of 2008.
Sieylianna 08-13-06, 09:49 PM	I was talking to a fan of Living Greyhawk at Gen Con and he said that the RPGA would never drop Living Greyhawk and it would survive no matter what. I heard the same thing about Living City just before the RPGA dropped it. Wonder where Living City is today. These D&D campaigns are the way the RPGA wants to go. So people might as well get use to it. Allow me to point out that there seem to be significant judge shortages at Gen Con this year. It was the worst year yet. The "Old Guard" is deserting the RPGA due to the emphasis on the D&D campaigns. I talked to several long time authors and judges who are pretty much done with the RPGA. Let's look at where the XE faction masters came from: I believe Shawn was a LG triad member. He definitely wrote modules for Living Greyhawk and Living Kalamar. August was a LG triad member and director of the Living Force campaign. He's written modules for Living Greyhawk, Living Death, Living Force. Greg Marks was a LG triad member. He's written modules for LG and possibly other campaigns. I know August goes back to Living City. I believe Shawn does as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Greg also did because Milwaukee was a Liivng City hot spot. The way I see it, the people who are making the campaigns work are largely long time RPGA members. And I don't see anything happening in the D&D campaigns to bring in and train new blood. It's easy to find people to play. It's much harder to get people to organize and run events, write modules, etc. I'm already seeing that having an impact. Ed
kiddoc 08-13-06, 11:40 PM	The way I see it, the people who are making the campaigns work are largely long time RPGA members. And I don't see anything happening in the D&D campaigns to bring in and train new blood. It's easy to find people to play. It's much harder to get people to organize and run events, write modules, etc. I'm already seeing that having an impact. Ed And the question is--where did that mysterious 4th factionmaster come from? ;) It's probably that crazy "new" guy that ran 12 slots at Gencon. At least that's the rumor. I welcome any and all feedback on my tables and performance--it's a good way for the "rookie" to learn. We're trying some insane new things with the XE campaign--never has a release featured 20 playable modules in one debut (4 per faction, 3 round well of woe and the delve). As for evil characters, the possibility of moderated player conflict (note--not violence), tons of new race/class unlocks, and several wicked new formats--well, those seem like a good start to me. Of course, when you blaze new ground, there are always kinks to work out. Good thing we've got four factionmasters that are willing to work (and play) day and night to make sure that it gets done, and that it gets done right.
Sianger 08-14-06, 12:27 AM	Of course, when you blaze new ground, there are always kinks to work out. Good thing we've got four factionmasters that are willing to work (and play) day and night to make sure that it gets done, and that it gets done right. And, kinks aside, we're all pretty damn grateful for it, I'm sure. I'm not the best qualified person to say this, because I've only played one XE module so far, but - ignoring little problems - it was quite a well-written adventure. Ed - the 2-from-each-faction table you described sounds like the one in the recent new post on this forum, so that doesn't sound too bad overall. I am curious just how severe most of the PvP around was. And what action, if any, was taken to counter it. In the CoS module I played there was a brief PvP moment [Obscura are such a fun idea!] but it basically ended once one side accomplished their aim (which was mutually exclusive with the other character's; hence the PvP as the other character tried to stop the first side). So that was alright.
ucfjedi 08-14-06, 01:07 AM	When living Grey Hawkers cause problems stomp them into the ground. Bring a strong build character and crush em. It is one of the most boring campaigns i have played and they dislike new campaigns cause it means that the RPGA might dump them like they did LC. So alot of them want any new campain to fail so their LG will survive.
Sianger 08-14-06, 01:16 AM	While I agree with some of your sentiments on LG, bringing a "strong build character" to "crush them" is probably one of the worst things anyone could do, because it's precisely such behaviour that will lead to the canning of the XE campaign-experiment (because it certainly is an experiment). Let's all try to show that we can be more mature than that, and can handle both inter-character and inter-player conflict.
Ishorn 08-14-06, 05:36 AM	When living Grey Hawkers cause problems stomp them into the ground. Bring a strong build character and crush em. It is one of the most boring campaigns i have played and they dislike new campaigns cause it means that the RPGA might dump them like they did LC. So alot of them want any new campain to fail so their LG will survive. This is rich. We are playing 1st level characters with 25 point builds a giant rat can kill the character. Why stomp on each other. There is no point in PVP period and if these individuals want to be destructive they will be destructive no matter what.
Ishorn 08-14-06, 05:39 AM	And the question is--where did that mysterious 4th factionmaster come from? ;) It's probably that crazy "new" guy that ran 12 slots at Gencon. At least that's the rumor. I welcome any and all feedback on my tables and performance--it's a good way for the "rookie" to learn. We're trying some insane new things with the XE campaign--never has a release featured 20 playable modules in one debut (4 per faction, 3 round well of woe and the delve). As for evil characters, the possibility of moderated player conflict (note--not violence), tons of new race/class unlocks, and several wicked new formats--well, those seem like a good start to me. Of course, when you blaze new ground, there are always kinks to work out. Good thing we've got four factionmasters that are willing to work (and play) day and night to make sure that it gets done, and that it gets done right. You were awesome. You brought energy to the table and you made it a lot of fun. Definitly going to use your faction for my home campaign.
Ishorn 08-14-06, 05:44 AM	Allow me to point out that there seem to be significant judge shortages at Gen Con this year. It was the worst year yet. The "Old Guard" is deserting the RPGA due to the emphasis on the D&D campaigns. I talked to several long time authors and judges who are pretty much done with the RPGA. Let's look at where the XE faction masters came from: I believe Shawn was a LG triad member. He definitely wrote modules for Living Greyhawk and Living Kalamar. August was a LG triad member and director of the Living Force campaign. He's written modules for Living Greyhawk, Living Death, Living Force. Greg Marks was a LG triad member. He's written modules for LG and possibly other campaigns. I know August goes back to Living City. I believe Shawn does as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Greg also did because Milwaukee was a Liivng City hot spot. The way I see it, the people who are making the campaigns work are largely long time RPGA members. And I don't see anything happening in the D&D campaigns to bring in and train new blood. It's easy to find people to play. It's much harder to get people to organize and run events, write modules, etc. I'm already seeing that having an impact. Ed You are right about the lack of judges. I was glad to see some old Living campaign people interested in getting involved in this new campaign. I was hoping that they could stop the hostility toward the D&D campaign but what I saw and heard at Gen Con was that is not going to happen.
Sieylianna 08-14-06, 07:52 AM	You are right about the lack of judges. I was glad to see some old Living campaign people interested in getting involved in this new campaign. I was hoping that they could stop the hostility toward the D&D campaign but what I saw and heard at Gen Con was that is not going to happen. It used to be that you'd play the campaigns you enjoyed and you would eat modules for the campaigns you didn't play. However, this year the RPGA didn't include Living Arcanis, Liivng Kalamar or Liivng Spycraft, all of which can be ordered the RPGA and receive reward points. So you're cutting the judge pool by a decent amount. On top of that, the modules are later and later to come out, which means you can't slot zero them before the con. Finally, the number of slots at the con has been reduced. You used to work 4 of 13 for free admission or 7 of 13 for a free room. Now it's 4 of 10 or 7 of 10. I know some people prefer to judge, but I think the majority prefer to play, but will help out as judge as long as it doesn't interfere with their playing. I've noticed a decline in judge quality over the past four years at Gen Con. Of the two judges I hadn't played with before at Gen Con, one was quite good and the other was horrible. He didn't seem to know the rules, even simple ones, at all. Ed
Ishorn 08-14-06, 10:17 AM	It used to be that you'd play the campaigns you enjoyed and you would eat modules for the campaigns you didn't play. However, this year the RPGA didn't include Living Arcanis, Liivng Kalamar or Liivng Spycraft, all of which can be ordered the RPGA and receive reward points. So you're cutting the judge pool by a decent amount. On top of that, the modules are later and later to come out, which means you can't slot zero them before the con. Finally, the number of slots at the con has been reduced. You used to work 4 of 13 for free admission or 7 of 13 for a free room. Now it's 4 of 10 or 7 of 10. I know some people prefer to judge, but I think the majority prefer to play, but will help out as judge as long as it doesn't interfere with their playing. I've noticed a decline in judge quality over the past four years at Gen Con. Of the two judges I hadn't played with before at Gen Con, one was quite good and the other was horrible. He didn't seem to know the rules, even simple ones, at all. Ed I have heard the samething about how judging was handled at Gen Con. I had a really bad judge for Shadow Over Stormreach. I guess it is an attitude were the only thing going so they have to come to us.
TimRat 08-14-06, 11:07 AM	The judge shortages wasn't necessarily due to people leaving and not playing but a lot of judges backing out at the last second that were signed up. not going to go into specifics about it but that was the real crux. there was some mixed communication regarding how to do the well of woe. that pvp wasn't supposed to happen. its a shame that some tables had to deal with that.
Thaelys 08-14-06, 12:42 PM	My table was the one that had two of each of the following factions: Covenant of Light, Crimson Codex, Cabal of Shadows. I was playing Zaobon, the evil Daelkyr Halfblood Cleric. I tried to avoid PvP. However, faced with the circumstances (a "re-briefing" of the faction objectives by the DM during the last encounter), The Crimson Codex pair WOULD NOT allow us to carry out our resolution. Since the Covenant Players HAD accomplished their objective and we had not, out of character they agreed quite willingly to help us - especially since the circumstance nearly demanded the party to act decisively. The CC players themselves decided to abort their objective. Since to me this seemed like foolishness, I wasn't about to sit there and let two other players decide how the mod was going to finish for me. As a faction, our interests were not being considered at all. Since we were at the Con, I wasn't going to whine about it out of character. The DM was not intervening. So I struck hard. 1 Attack of Opportunity later and half of the CC pair was down. The other CC character didn't stand in my way at that moment, so I felt enough damage had been done. Instead of attacking the other CC character, I proceeded to carry out my objective. Bang. The second CC character attacked me. Due to the circumstances, her attack and the existing conditions knocked my character out. The CoL pair were busy dealing with the existing conditions as they were. My fellow CoS party member had been neutralized by the first outbreak of PVP, initiated by one of the Covenant party members. It was literally a free for all. For those that had played Well of Woes, imagine the endgame situation with all of that intra-party chaos going on. I was suprised no one had been killed outright. Keep in mind the players at my table were all fun and very mature and there was no sense of ill will shared between anyone. In fact, the other players commented to me after the game "You sure know how to play a nemesis well". Alas, the manner in which things were interpreted caused the situation to occur.
Mike Czaplinski 08-14-06, 01:15 PM	[snip] I have only had one PVP encounter and that was in the Living Greyhawk campaign and that is because I play a monk from the Scarlet Brotherhood. I handed the guy his behind and he no longer had a problem where my character was from. If true, then you ought to hand over your character to your local triad, since active PVP conflict is expressly forbidden by the LG Campaign Standards. And if the judge at the table allowed it, they ought to be sanctioned as well. Of course, it is just possible you are telling a fib to further your point about the poor maturity level of LG players. But, given that you have assumed a higher moral plane than them, this can't POSSIBLY BE TRUE, since that would mean you're talking the same kind of smack you deride them for. I am finding more and more that the maturity level of the RPGA is way low and these people are usually 20 plus years old. It is just a game get over it. I don't know what region you're playing in: my home LG region is Geoff, and I've played extensively in Keoland, and somewhat less so in the Gran March and Bissell and have not seen any particular evidence of any of your assertions; the average age seemed to be the mid-20's or even the 30's, and the age range of participants has been pre-teen through people in their 60's. If your region is so bad, then I'm sorry for you. MikeC
Ishorn 08-14-06, 02:37 PM	[snip] If true, then you ought to hand over your character to your local triad, since active PVP conflict is expressly forbidden by the LG Campaign Standards. And if the judge at the table allowed it, they ought to be sanctioned as well. Of course, it is just possible you are telling a fib to further your point about the poor maturity level of LG players. But, given that you have assumed a higher moral plane than them, this can't POSSIBLY BE TRUE, since that would mean you're talking the same kind of smack you deride them for. I don't know what region you're playing in: my home LG region is Geoff, and I've played extensively in Keoland, and somewhat less so in the Gran March and Bissell and have not seen any particular evidence of any of your assertions; the average age seemed to be the mid-20's or even the 30's, and the age range of participants has been pre-teen through people in their 60's. If your region is so bad, then I'm sorry for you. MikeC If you were at Gen Con then you were in my Region. The attack happened the last year Winter Fantasy was in Fort Wayne. The person was from the Iron League and they stated that this was common practice from their region to try and kill all Scarlet Brothers. The Judge at the table asked if I wanted to report the incident and I said no. There were physically three of them and only one of me. I have not played Living Greyhawk since.
Mike Czaplinski 08-14-06, 03:30 PM	If you were at Gen Con then you were in my Region. The attack happened the last year Winter Fantasy was in Fort Wayne. The person was from the Iron League and they stated that this was common practice from their region to try and kill all Scarlet Brothers. The Judge at the table asked if I wanted to report the incident and I said no. There were physically three of them and only one of me. I have not played Living Greyhawk since. I wasn't at GenCon. Coincidentally, I did play LG on Sunday, however. So, this would have been WF 2002? Well, if true that certainly isn't an endorsement to play any Verbobonc mods. If, in fact, the judge did not report the incident (despite your wishes on the matter), then he was to my mind grossly negligent. Not to equate a silly in-game altercation with a real-world assault, but if the judge was a party to it, then he was bound by the RPGA rules to report such unsportsmanlike conduct regardless of the wishes of the involved parties, just as a policeman is bound by law to arrest assault suspects even if the victims don't want it in some cases. The prohibition against PvP was enshrined in LG from Day One, no doubt inspired by various PvP altercations in the earlier LC campaign, and I for one think it is a great thing. Of course, given that you were playing someone associated with one of the biggest 'bad guy' organizations in LG, some might uncharitably suggest that you were looking to instigate a fight. But, I am a charitable man, and always try to think the best of anyone. But, even if you were out trolling for negative reactions from other LG players, there is NO situation, save things like magical mind control or the occasionally unavoidable area effect attack that clips a poorly placed teammat, where one PC should ever specifically attack another, even if said attack is a non-lethal one. LG is loaded with artificial impediments to roleplaying, and if you get down to it the PvP prohibition is one, but anyone who would seriously argue that it should be abolished is not the kind of player that I am comfortable sitting at a table with. MikeC
Blaznak 08-14-06, 04:04 PM	We had a Drow Paladin in our group for the CoS adventures and we had evil characters too. Eberron is not a setting where alignment is meant to be what dictates your characters motives. As for PVP it is more than likely that this happened because of people wanting to disrupt the campaign. I have only had one PVP encounter and that was in the Living Greyhawk campaign and that is because I play a monk from the Scarlet Brotherhood. I handed the guy his behind and he no longer had a problem where my character was from. I am finding more and more that the maturity level of the RPGA is way low and these people are usually 20 plus years old. It is just a game get over it. Hey! Were you at my table? My 9 year old daughter ran a Drow Necromancer Cleric. I ran a Drow Paladin, and BOY did we have a fun time! In fact she told a LOT of people about that game and what fun it was. Not ONE (repeat ONE) of the tables I played at get into a hissy-fit over factions/alignment, whatever. I can see how it could happen, but our groups (we played three games) were all EXCELLENT roleplayers. I had two gamers TOTAL ask how I kept my drow paladin going and I just said "Well, my character decided SOMEONE has to step up and protect the Drow from all those human adventurers who slaughter our people for no reason (grin). Or at least for a couple of more levels anyways..." Happy laughter and we just kept playing. Of course, I never "Detected Evil" on our party - nor did I ever see a need to. I'm coming to a conclusion that some players intentionally look for trouble... LATER! Jeffery A. Shield Lands Triad (and yes, I won an ENnie!)
Wavester 08-14-06, 04:51 PM	Allow me to point out that there seem to be significant judge shortages at Gen Con this year. It was the worst year yet. The "Old Guard" is deserting the RPGA due to the emphasis on the D&D campaigns. I talked to several long time authors and judges who are pretty much done with the RPGA. Ed and you base that on what information ? I'm the one with the numbers and I don't remember talking with you about them. Lets use some correct info: I had over 180 judges working the show for me. We were up 10% total table count right out of the gate. We sat all our real ticket holders (within reason - sometimes an LG ticket did not work due to their inflexibility with APL's available) We sat TONS of generics and especially in the LG Special where we often sat 12-24 extra players every single slot We ran 1,352 players through the Xen'Drik Expedition Delve We ran 138 teams through the D&D Open I had enough it seems to free up some that went over to help at the LD BI that you were at (much to Claire's thanks) We did this all with 10 judges just flat out not showing up to the show (leaving me 67 slots shorter on judges - all 10 of them scheduled to run Friday night which was our roughest slot by far) We had a stack of generic tickets that would choke an elephant. That means we sat all those real tickets and say hundreds and hundreds of generic walk-ups. To me that is having enough judges. Now did we seat every Generic? Nope. Just not possible. We do our best but if 120 people show up for a 60 person event there is only so much we could do. Did we have to shift some judges to cover holes ? Yup. With 10 judges not showing up we had to adjust on the fly at times and our judges did an awesome job. I received tons of compliments on judge and adventure quality at the show. With everything going on with RPGA HQ right now I was very proud of our team and how we pulled everything together to give the players a great convention. We had a few problem judges who we will either not use in the future or have talks with to improve some of their weak points (RPGA judging is a learning process. We all get better with time and as our comfort level increases). Are some of the 'old guard' leaving ? Most certainly. Does it bug me ? Not one bit. Because A> some of them are just not worth the hassle (I have been judging X for Y years and I deserve better swag/treatment/etc. becaue of it) or B> They are just not having their needs met with the RPGA and are moving on (which most of us do at one point or another). Six years from now I will have to listen to an 'old time' LG player tell me how all the 'old guard' is leaving and the RPGA is going to fold. I am sure years ago some old classic players were saying the same thing when LC was going nuts and how the RPGA was loosing its focus and was just going to die from all these new 'living' campaign punks. Things change. Sometimes they change in ways that do not make you happy and people move on. Just how it works. Not saying you have to keep it to yourself but at the same time you can only listen to somebody cry the sky is falling for so many years before you just chuckle at them everytime they say it. Membership is up Overall play is up Play at major shows is up Xen'Drik probably ran close to as many tables as LG did at Gencon (need to do some final number crunching) So things seem pretty good to me right now (other then Stephen leaving - that will bum me out for a long time).
Ishorn 08-14-06, 05:04 PM	Hey! Were you at my table? My 9 year old daughter ran a Drow Necromancer Cleric. I ran a Drow Paladin, and BOY did we have a fun time! In fact she told a LOT of people about that game and what fun it was. Not ONE (repeat ONE) of the tables I played at get into a hissy-fit over factions/alignment, whatever. I can see how it could happen, but our groups (we played three games) were all EXCELLENT roleplayers. I had two gamers TOTAL ask how I kept my drow paladin going and I just said "Well, my character decided SOMEONE has to step up and protect the Drow from all those human adventurers who slaughter our people for no reason (grin). Or at least for a couple of more levels anyways..." Happy laughter and we just kept playing. Of course, I never "Detected Evil" on our party - nor did I ever see a need to. I'm coming to a conclusion that some players intentionally look for trouble... LATER! Jeffery A. Shield Lands Triad (and yes, I won an ENnie!) Yes, I was at your table. I played the Drow Ranger.
Ishorn 08-14-06, 05:12 PM	I wasn't at GenCon. Coincidentally, I did play LG on Sunday, however. So, this would have been WF 2002? Well, if true that certainly isn't an endorsement to play any Verbobonc mods. If, in fact, the judge did not report the incident (despite your wishes on the matter), then he was to my mind grossly negligent. Not to equate a silly in-game altercation with a real-world assault, but if the judge was a party to it, then he was bound by the RPGA rules to report such unsportsmanlike conduct regardless of the wishes of the involved parties, just as a policeman is bound by law to arrest assault suspects even if the victims don't want it in some cases. The prohibition against PvP was enshrined in LG from Day One, no doubt inspired by various PvP altercations in the earlier LC campaign, and I for one think it is a great thing. Of course, given that you were playing someone associated with one of the biggest 'bad guy' organizations in LG, some might uncharitably suggest that you were looking to instigate a fight. But, I am a charitable man, and always try to think the best of anyone. But, even if you were out trolling for negative reactions from other LG players, there is NO situation, save things like magical mind control or the occasionally unavoidable area effect attack that clips a poorly placed teammat, where one PC should ever specifically attack another, even if said attack is a non-lethal one. LG is loaded with artificial impediments to roleplaying, and if you get down to it the PvP prohibition is one, but anyone who would seriously argue that it should be abolished is not the kind of player that I am comfortable sitting at a table with. MikeC I am glad that people are now knowledgable about Greyhawk but back then no one except for these individuals from the Iron League that I met at Winter Fantasy knew anything about the Scarlet Brotherhood. I am old school Greyhawk and there is only one place monks come from on Oerik and that is from the Brotherhood. I played the character as an outcast and he is Lawful Good. So I was not looking for a fight and this incident happened after the adventure was over and most people were packing up to get to their next event. So in a sense it was an out of campaign event.
Mike Czaplinski 08-14-06, 05:39 PM	I am glad that people are now knowledgable about Greyhawk but back then no one except for these individuals from the Iron League that I met at Winter Fantasy knew anything about the Scarlet Brotherhood. I am old school Greyhawk and there is only one place monks come from on Oerik and that is from the Brotherhood. I, too, have been playing D&D since 1979, and am quite familiar with Greyhawk, and I've never seen that particular interpretation of the origin of monks on Oerth. But, to each their own, and it is really not germain to this discussion. I played the character as an outcast and he is Lawful Good. So I was not looking for a fight and this incident happened after the adventure was over and most people were packing up to get to their next event. So in a sense it was an out of campaign event. If it happened as you describe, it only reinforces my opinions that A> The people who 'attacked' you were unutterable louts who had no business playing an RPGA event, and B> The GM, even if the PvP prohibition was not in place (and my packratted LG docs only go back to the tail end of Y1, when I started playing), was extremely negligent to have allowed this sort of thing to have happened at all, even if it was 'after the mod'. <*In a sense, its rather depressing to me that any campaign needs to enshrine the 'No PvP violence' rule, but I suppose my own experience with D&D prior to LG was rather unique. In the many, many games & campaigns I participated in, I never once had any serious party dissention that came down to blows in game. I also never really got the appeal of playing an evil character, but that's neither here nor there.*> I guess this is about as far as we can take this one, but I will end simply by saying that your LG experience is far, far from my own, and if that soured you on the campaign, that is regrettable. Hopefully, once SRM's replacement(s) are in place this sort of thing will be tightened up for XE and any ambiguities smoothed over. MikeC
kiddoc 08-14-06, 06:10 PM	Hopefully, once SRM's replacement(s) are in place this sort of thing will be tightened up for XE and any ambiguities smoothed over. MikeC Let me reassure you that this is something that will get done REGARDLESS of who SRM's replacement is. I have never been so privilege as to work with a more professional and dedicated staff devoted entirely to working for the enjoyment and advancement of this game. I was truly awed, and personally motivated, by the level of effort and energy my other 3 factionmasters put into everything at--and leading up to--Gencon. I know people will never even have an inkling of the miracle we managed to pull off, but those that played at our tables at Gencon saw how much of ourselves we personally threw into this campaign. This is our baby, and we have treated it as precious and prideful since day 1. We're motivated now more than ever. I assure you Mike, you are in very, very good hands. We're off to a great start--perhaps one of the best yet. But know this: We are not satisfied. And we will not rest until we are satisfied. That is, perhaps, the most encouraging news of all.
Ishorn 08-14-06, 07:19 PM	Let me reassure you that this is something that will get done REGARDLESS of who SRM's replacement is. I have never been so privilege as to work with a more professional and dedicated staff devoted entirely to working for the enjoyment and advancement of this game. I was truly awed, and personally motivated, by the level of effort and energy my other 3 factionmasters put into everything at--and leading up to--Gencon. I know people will never even have an inkling of the miracle we managed to pull off, but those that played at our tables at Gencon saw how much of ourselves we personally threw into this campaign. This is our baby, and we have treated it as precious and prideful since day 1. We're motivated now more than ever. I assure you Mike, you are in very, very good hands. We're off to a great start--perhaps one of the best yet. But know this: We are not satisfied. And we will not rest until we are satisfied. That is, perhaps, the most encouraging news of all. Glad to see this response. I really enjoyed playing the Dungeon Delve with you. It was great fun. I got the half-giant build card.
Ishorn 08-14-06, 07:27 PM	My honest hope is that the Xen'drik Expedition campaign succeeds and that Living Greyhawk will continue for those who enjoy it. I get tired of people that want to destroy something just because it is new and does not fit with their views. It seems to me that Eberron has been under attack since its announcement as the winner of the new campaign world contest.
Herrbard 08-14-06, 07:50 PM	We're off to a great start--perhaps one of the best yet. But know this: We are not satisfied. And we will not rest until we are satisfied. That is, perhaps, the most encouraging news of all. And speaking as one judge who had a fantastic time running Brian's mods at GenCon, there are plenty of us who will be right there to keep the standard going! (Sergeant Tragar won't let us do anything less!) Dan Erbacher
Simpi 08-15-06, 03:37 AM	[snip] If true, then you ought to hand over your character to your local triad, since active PVP conflict is expressly forbidden by the LG Campaign Standards. And if the judge at the table allowed it, they ought to be sanctioned as well. Depends. Did he actually use lethal damage or not? There are actually few LG modules out there which either: a) Give the option for nonlethal damage if peoples ideas about which faction should get the "McGuffin" of the module are in conflict and they are unable to come to agreement. b) Make it possible to actually steal a story item for your own faction. c) Result of old disfavors meaning that certain people only attack you (nonlethal, aiming to capture), while leaving others who might have favors with them in peace. As for being member of Scarlet Brotherhood. If the character is an out-cast of the Brotherhood and good aligned or something like that, then very few people in Iron League areas (Onnwal, Naerie & Sunndi) will have problems with it. Heck, we will have a meta-organisation "Ex-Brotherhood Soldier" in our region since we still have hundreds of them in labor camps or as second class citizens and one of our player does play an old SB member (along with "badge of bondage" regional feat to account for years spent in labor camp). However, if PC is a member of Scarlet Brotherhood as a result of COR4-04 Redtide, then he/she could be in world of trouble. After all, that character would essentially be a citizen of a nation that is looking nothing but enslavement of Iron League nations and by most laws subject to immediate execution if caught. I was once playing a Sunndi module where an SB member was uncovered. He lost nearly anything as he had to pay reparations for the state, use magic to remove his "mark of justice" and then spend something like 30TU in jail afterwards. This is one thing where regional aspect comes into play. While in some areas they might not care much about Scarlet Brotherhood or be actively hostile, in some places the orders are to kill them on sight. As for some LG players wrecking a game of Xendrik. Well, I think this mainly makes themselves look foolish. Still, I have hard time believing that this kind of people walk around. I dont plan on playing Xendrik (I dont like level bumps) but I recognise we have enough room in this little sandbox called RPGA for both campaigns. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
psgj 08-15-06, 04:37 AM	I wonder if the PvP at the Well of Woe tables was due more to the evil characters or the non-evil ones. Or simply due to people being from different factions. If it was due to the evil characters, then well... Cabal of Shadows should really have a warning that states "For Mature, Experienced Players ONLY". And if it was due to the others, something is pretty screwed-up. At the table I judged it was a CoL character that tried to start PvP on CoS. I wouldn't let him, but I also gave him an alternative that allowed him to play is CoL character in a satisfactory way. psgj
Ishorn 08-15-06, 05:56 AM	I can see PVP as a way of advancing the cause of your faction but not because of alignment. I know the rule lawyers will go nuts on this but in Eberron alignment is not what dictates your characters actions. I think that many people miss this point.
Ishorn 08-15-06, 07:49 AM	I dont plan on playing Xendrik (I dont like level bumps) but I recognise we have enough room in this little sandbox called RPGA for both campaigns. So you are saying if there were no level bumps you would play Xen'drik Expedition. Maybe people should take a poll to see how many people really dislike the level bumps and if it is a big enough number maybe the RPGA would get rid of it.
Simpi 08-15-06, 08:14 AM	So you are saying if there were no level bumps you would play Xen'drik Expedition. Maybe people should take a poll to see how many people really dislike the level bumps and if it is a big enough number maybe the RPGA would get rid of it. Most likely I would at least give it a try but purely as secondary "hobby" while Living Greyhawk would receive most of my attention. I understand that WOTC obviously wants to keep campaigns like this going for 2-3 years and as such campaign needs to have its "average level", which is the reason for bumps. Also from what I have heard from reporting problems and all with MoH, I very much think that LGs method of "paper trail" in form of ARs that you receive immediately is better than electronic reporting. What ever happened to KISS principle? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Harliquinn 08-15-06, 08:25 AM	So you are saying if there were no level bumps you would play Xen'drik Expedition. Maybe people should take a poll to see how many people really dislike the level bumps and if it is a big enough number maybe the RPGA would get rid of it. I would likely stop playing Xen'drik if they got rid of level bumps. It is one of the major reasons I don't play Living Greyhawk and the like. Level bumps help keep everyone on the same footing so that at cons and the like you don't have people 'shunned' from tables because they are a level or two lower than everyone else. If you play the campaign religiously then the level bumps will never really affect you as they are designed to bring everyone up to within 1 level of the highest you could be. If you are only able to play every now and then, the level bumps really help keep you active in the campaign. It also helps the module authors such that they don't have to writing scaling for their modules from level 1 through level 10, they can keep it to a more narrowly defined range of levels (1-4 for instance), since they have a good idea that anyone playing will be between the old level bump and the current maximum for the campaign. A lack of level bumps, at least in many of the Living Greyhawk and Living City games of the past, served to create a 'caste' system within the players at conventions, such that those with higher levels thought themselves superior and would not wish to travel with someone who would 'bring down their group.' This often lead to people not getting into groups or groups being 'forced' to play with the lower level person (and in many cases they would die). Harliquinn
Ishorn 08-15-06, 10:16 AM	A lack of level bumps, at least in many of the Living Greyhawk and Living City games of the past, served to create a 'caste' system within the players at conventions, such that those with higher levels thought themselves superior and would not wish to travel with someone who would 'bring down their group.' This often lead to people not getting into groups or groups being 'forced' to play with the lower level person (and in many cases they would die). Harliquinn[/QUOTE] See this is where I see I a problem with maturity level of the current players. When I played both LC and LG the group at my local game store welcomed everyone. I understand at Cons you are dealing people who do not regularly play together but hey just because the character is low level does not mean they can not help in the problem solving aspects of many adventures.
Ishorn 08-15-06, 10:16 AM	A lack of level bumps, at least in many of the Living Greyhawk and Living City games of the past, served to create a 'caste' system within the players at conventions, such that those with higher levels thought themselves superior and would not wish to travel with someone who would 'bring down their group.' This often lead to people not getting into groups or groups being 'forced' to play with the lower level person (and in many cases they would die). Harliquinn[/QUOTE] See this is were I see I a problem with maturity level of the current players. When I played both LC and LG the group at my local game store welcomed everyone. I understand at Cons you are dealing people who do not regularly play together but hey just because the character is low level does not mean they can not help in the problem solving aspects of many adventures.
Harliquinn 08-15-06, 10:45 AM	Lack of level bumps are never usually a problem with a group that plays together regularly. However, for many, the only times they get to play are at conventions.
Ishorn 08-15-06, 12:27 PM	Sorry for the double post. I had computer problems.
Mark the Hammer 08-15-06, 02:05 PM	Yes, as the RPGA GM in the group, I only get to play at the conventions. Most other times, I am running the game. Without a level kick I would not be able to effectively play...
Kelvane 08-15-06, 04:13 PM	I played Well of Woe with split factions. Myself and two others where from C.o.S. and we played with Three Gnolls from B.W. . There was no PVP. Being evil doesn't mean I have to kill everyone. Us Cabal members knew we needed the Gnolls brute strength to further our own ends and we did just that, letting them take the lead and think they were in control at all times. In the end we completed our mission and sank back into the shadows. Personally I hope I can play the expidition mod with the same group next year because they were a blast. :evillaugh :plotting:
Japangirl 08-15-06, 04:53 PM	I got started in the RPGA on Living Greyhawk and really enjoy the campaign. I am also really looking forward to playing Xen'drik, and hoping that my two campaigns don't conflict with eachother. That said, I played one Eberron module (the first, intro one) and dropped that campaign immediately. I also played a few LGR modules, so I feel qualified to state that I just like Living campaigns better. When you have to earn levels, when you had to suffer through being a level 1, then level 2, then finally level 3 wizard and ZOMG YOU GOT A SCORCHING RAY!!, the character means a lot more to you than if you just get your third level handed to you. I didn't like the way Eberron and LGR let you retool characters, because then you didn't have a set character to become attached to. I also didn't like the way the crafting worked, because in order to have a party that made full use of its money you needed to spend a week figuring out who would craft what for whom and who would spend money buying stuff for the crafter who was making stuff for other people. It took a lot of fun out of the game to have to work so hard at it. I'm willing to put up with in in Xen'drik, because of all the other stuff I see that I really like in the campaign. As for all LG people being young and immature, well, I fit the barely-20s stereotype. However, I would never actively try to ruin a game or campaign, and no one that I know or play with would either. There are always idiots, but ascribing their traits to a whole lot of other people isn't very fair. LG allows for PVP in very specified circumstances and only with non-lethal damage, and I have been involved in PVP incidents. However, no one came anywhere close to dying, and everyone understood the character rationales for what happened. Things are also different in the Bandit Kingdoms :). In one situation, we were sent to get a book for an evil NPC, and held our "pointed discussion" after liberating the book from its present owners and teleporting somewhere safe. We ended up sending the book to the Greyhawk Library for safekeeping, and all got the enmity of a very nasty wizard who happens to rule the city my character lives in *gulp*. I started at lower level than my friends who were playing at the time. They kindly played down until I caught up enough to play with them, and sometimes at conventions we did get split up (we're pretty even now, because one has died once and the other hasn't been able to play for awhile and also died once). But it was still fun, and our secondary and tertiary characters all play together a lot. I never found myself in any situation of feeling unwelcome or unwanted. And so ends my defense of LG and its players. It's longer than I thought it would be, sorry about that.
raalynthslair 08-16-06, 02:17 PM	I got started in the RPGA on Living Greyhawk and really enjoy the campaign. I am also really looking forward to playing Xen'drik, and hoping that my two campaigns don't conflict with eachother. That said, I played one Eberron module (the first, intro one) and dropped that campaign immediately. I also played a few LGR modules, so I feel qualified to state that I just like Living campaigns better. I played LG for a while as well, and it was not players being immature that turned me off from it, it was the ponderously slow XP (and some bad experiences with a few specific modules - I've voiced concerns to the proper people then, so I'll not gripe here about it) and level gain. After about 12-15 mods I was level three with a single Masterwork dagger... that's it. Nothing special, nothing extra-ordinary, nothing even close to remarkable. But at GenCon I was being severely outclassed by players that had played as many (sometimes fewer) mods and were a level or two higher and had all sorts of fun toys to use in the mods - and while it's not about combat and weapons, having something to work with when everyone else does is nice too - and feeling like you're spinning tires when others are on cruise control is a very frustrating feeling. I didn't have the "20 year old immaturity" problem... First of all, I'd like to know when maturity became "age-dependant." I've gamed with 12 year olds that have had worlds more maturity than some 40 year olds at the same table. Age is nothing in terms of maturity. You can be old and a selfish power-hungry glutton not playing as a team player in the game for sake of the loot YOU can get at any age; just as you can be a good team player without the "screw the party as long as I get the loot" mentality without being over 15, much less 20+. When you have to earn levels, when you had to suffer through being a level 1, then level 2, then finally level 3 wizard and ZOMG YOU GOT A SCORCHING RAY!!, the character means a lot more to you than if you just get your third level handed to you. I didn't like the way Eberron and LGR let you retool characters, because then you didn't have a set character to become attached to. I also didn't like the way the crafting worked, because in order to have a party that made full use of its money you needed to spend a week figuring out who would craft what for whom and who would spend money buying stuff for the crafter who was making stuff for other people. It took a lot of fun out of the game to have to work so hard at it. I'm willing to put up with in in Xen'drik, because of all the other stuff I see that I really like in the campaign. But on the other hand, if you had to spend hours and hours outside of the game trying to figure out how to do something in game that would amount to a single die roll or a phrase spoken to the GM that took less than an breath's time to do... Is that really "enhancing the game" or just "bogging down your time b/c of the game?" And I don't mean to say LG is nothing but a "time waster" b/c for the most part I DID enjoy the game very much. I DO like the "Living" style of character generation and advancement better than this "on-line tracking" and only when it updates your XP and EV and level can you update your character's stats/etc. And I don't like the "re-tooling" of "critical" character elements, but I don't think that's what you're supposed to do in XE either. I think that's partly confusion on players and GMs on what is allowed and not, and what is supposed to be "set in stone" and what isn't. There's a lot of that I am still shaky on too. I never found myself in any situation of feeling unwelcome or unwanted. I don't think I've ever been made to feel that way at any gaming table (well, CON table anyway - personal experience (limited as these incidents are) will always eventually have a negative one included). I am glad that RPGA games have always been open and welcoming to you as well.
Ishorn 08-16-06, 02:36 PM	[QUOTE=raalynthslair]After about 12-15 mods I was level three with a single Masterwork dagger... that's it. Nothing special, nothing extra-ordinary, nothing even close to remarkable. This just does not sound right. I am not sure what the experience points were given out for these mods were but this seems a bit low. As for the masterwork dagger that is very possible. The only time my group was picking up heavy magical items was when we played special event mods. I have been continually told by people on these boards that Greyhawk is a low magic world. The thing that you will notice in the D&D campaigns is that you buy magical items. So again you might be stuck with a masterwork item for a while.
raalynthslair 08-16-06, 02:57 PM	As for the masterwork dagger that is very possible. The only time my group was picking up heavy magical items was when we played special event mods. I have been continually told by people on these boards that Greyhawk is a low magic world. It was something like that, I don't recall exactly how many... But it WAS low, even we thought that (one of those "issues" I spoke of earlier was in regards to a mod or two that dealt directly with this problem). And I don't consider a +1 weapon a "heavy" magic item. Not when I've seen Wights, Medusas, and I think it was a Ghoul or Ghast group in one of those mods... We had a Level 1 character level drained (GM didn't realize he was Level 1, oops, and wouldn't have done THAT to the poor guy, but he was the only one standing in the area at the time (I was in negs, again - common for my rogue)). The thing that you will notice in the D&D campaigns is that you buy magical items. So again you might be stuck with a masterwork item for a while. Yea, when you can eventually afford them you buy them. *g* My cleric is poor and can't afford them. *lol* Not that a "poor" cleric really surprises anyone, eh?
Simpi 08-16-06, 04:28 PM	It was something like that, I don't recall exactly how many... But it WAS low, even we thought that (one of those "issues" I spoke of earlier was in regards to a mod or two that dealt directly with this problem). Aside from very first modules during Y1 when there still was a certificate system this might have been true. After all, some Y1 modules had Norkers in full plate and wererats in APL2. However, from Y2 onwards, the access has become open (with now-dead Magic Mart) and several "core items" so unless you happened to play all the possible modules without gaining a single gold coin (Maybe a raise dead in every table?) then I really have a hard time believing your argument. Heck, I started at Y3 and after my first module (Traitors Road) I already owned a masterwork composite longbow and pretty soon I had +1 armor. I also managed to play most of Y2 cores and most of them seemed to follow the usual distribution of gold/exp (APL2 450xp/450gp, etc.) Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad