Soulborn and Incarnum PRC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Soulborn and Incarnum PRC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LordAries
06-30-07, 11:50 PM I was looking at playing a Dwarf Soulborn for my Covenant of Light character... I currently have a character of each of the other factions, and we might go ahead and play some of that. However, as I looked through the Magic of Incarnum I came across a really cool looking PRC, the Ironsoul Forgemaster, and it fits exactly with what I want my character to do... be a champion of the light for the Dwarven Gods. However, it has a limiting factor in Xendrik expeditions that I was hoping some of the faction masters could look at and POSSIBLY help to overcome so that it can become a playable PRC.

The class gets craft arms and armor at 2nd level of the PRC, but doens't have spellcasting. Its assumed you would get help or use scrolls etc to be able to craft items. ALL of its abilities are based around using armor or weapons that are crafted by the character. However under current rules, my character would not EVER be able to craft anything, unless he took other levels to get spell casting abilities, that are not in line with the character, or its abilities. So in a way unless I go crazy and take a ton of other levels I don't want I can't use the class abilities for a class that designed to basically be a dwarven soulborn PRC option.

Can the factionmasters or rules gurus take a look at this class, I really want to play it and I'd like to get SOME benifit from the abilities it gets. I know you have made an exception to the artificer rules to allow them to craft items .
lseelba
07-01-07, 02:10 PM I don't think you are going to like the answer, but XE still uses caster level as a pre-requisite for creating any magic items. If you don't have any levels in spellcasting classes, I'm afraid you aren't going to be able to create any magic arms or armor. This requirement is on page 7.

As a side note, I beg the factionmasters to change this in the next version of the XCS. It has been errata'ed in the DMG, and Living Greyhawk has dropped caster level as a pre-req. As far as I know, Xen'drik is the only campaign still using the old requirements.
LordAries
07-01-07, 02:23 PM Well actually, the Ironsoul Forgemaster has an effective caster level equal to 3 times his levels of forgemaster but since he can't cast spells he can't make cool armor or arms... However if I want to make magic arms or armor with better than just a bonus, I need to be able to cast certain spells... and I can't.
lseelba
07-01-07, 07:11 PM Well actually, the Ironsoul Forgemaster has an effective caster level equal to 3 times his levels of forgemaster but since he can't cast spells he can't make cool armor or arms... However if I want to make magic arms or armor with better than just a bonus, I need to be able to cast certain spells... and I can't.

You really are off in unexplored territory here. The XCS doesn't speak directly to your question. Here is two possible interpretations though, of the relevant text from the XCS:

You may only purchase an item for reduced cost with item creation feats if your character possesses the appropriate prerequisites for crafting the item including caster level... Artificers are assumed to automatically succeed in any Use Magic Device check necessary to craft an item that the artificer possesses the caster level to create.

Lenient: Other classes can use UMD to craft stuff. As you know, anyone can cast spells from a scroll, it just takes the right amount of UMD. I don't know much about the Ironsoul Forgemaster, but most likely UMD will be a cross class skill. There are two main UMD checks you have to worry about. The first is casting the spell from the scroll, where the DC is 20+level of the spell. The second is needed if you have to emulate an ability score...ie if you are trying to cast a level 3 wizard score and you don't have 13 INT. That DC is 25+level of the spell. So a simple example would be flaming. You would want to cast Flame Blade from a scroll which is a 2nd level spell, requiring a 22 UMD check, which means you need at least a UMD modifier of +2 in order to succeed on a 20. If you did not have 12 WIS you would need a UMD modifier of +7. In addition you would need a caster level of 10. So basically, take ranks in UMD so that your modifier is high enough to cast the necessary spell from a scroll.

Strict Interpretation: Only artificers can use UMD to craft an item. If your DM uses this interpretation, you really can't use UMD to make the cool weapons or armor, so you would need to take a one level dip into artificer. It's probably not worth it to do this just to get cheaper arms or armor, but it's your call.

-Lou
LordAries
07-02-07, 12:33 AM Well, its not so much that I want them cheaper...

BUT if I craft my armor, using the current rules I could craft it as a +1 to +5 armor or sheild etc and get that at a cost of 3/4 the base cost... I guess I could pay normal cost to upgrade it to get cool abilities still.

If I craft armor myself, it costs 3/4 as much... does that affect both its actual cost AND the value of the item for the item value cap? That is something I don't think has been covered and might cause some problems without a resolution.
Marcus Majarra
07-02-07, 12:56 AM The XCS doesn't have any particular rules concerning what items can be crafted. It stipulates that all the requirements for an item must be met, including caster level. The Ironsoul Forgemaster secrets of the forge class feature allows the Forgemaster to meet caster level requirements for crafting magic arms and armor as if his caster level were equal to 3 times his Forgemaster level.

Assuming he still meets the requirements for any magic arms and armor he wants to craft, the item can be created as per XCS. Enhancement bonuses for arms and armor only have a CL requirement (DMG217 and DMG221). Although they're rare, other items are available to nonspellcasting Forgemasters, such as Ki Focus weapons (assuming the Forgemaster is a monk) or a Dwarven Thrower (assuming the Forgemaster is at least 10th level).
lseelba
07-02-07, 11:34 AM Well, its not so much that I want them cheaper...

BUT if I craft my armor, using the current rules I could craft it as a +1 to +5 armor or sheild etc and get that at a cost of 3/4 the base cost... I guess I could pay normal cost to upgrade it to get cool abilities still.

If I craft armor myself, it costs 3/4 as much... does that affect both its actual cost AND the value of the item for the item value cap? That is something I don't think has been covered and might cause some problems without a resolution.

No just the actual cost. The gold piece limit is unaffected by your craft feat, so you have to compare the campaign cost to your level gold piece limit first to see if you can craft it, then you take the discount. This is on Page 10.

Also, this is VERY IMPORTANT: non-consumables are crafted at 2/3 the published cost. The 3/4 number is wrong and will supposedly be fixed in the next campaign standards. The 2/3 number is on page 7.

Also, personally, I'd go the UMD route if I was playing your character. The rules are vague, so expect some table variation, but the worst thing that can happen is that you have to retool your equipment right before you start a table.
LordAries
07-02-07, 06:12 PM Umm... the way I read my campaign standards it said consumables are crafted for x3 instead of bought for x5. That would kinda make it 3/5ths but i prefer to look at it at x3 instead of x5.

Craft arms and Armor... will that allow me to make Weapon Crystals? If I use an Expansion slot to unlock a weapon crystal, does that let me make least, lesser, and greater or just one of the versions.
Marcus Majarra
07-02-07, 11:28 PM Craft Magic Arms and Armor will indeed allow you to create augment crystals, although you still have to meet other requirements. As to how unlocking will be administered, I cannot tell, although the current trend indicates that you'd only unlock one strength of a particular crystal per unlock (as is currently the case with, for example, pearls of power).
Skerrit
07-03-07, 08:50 AM Marcus is correct. You unlock one crystqal, not the whole family of cystals.
Harliquinn
07-03-07, 09:28 AM (as is currently the case with, for example, pearls of power).

You have to unlock Pearls of Power? They are in the DMG.

Harliquinn
Harliquinn
07-03-07, 09:29 AM Marcus is correct. You unlock one crystqal, not the whole family of cystals.

How will this work for things like Flaming, Flaming Burst, etc. which instead of being a single ability in the DMG are now '2 unlocks' in the MIC?
lseelba
07-03-07, 10:25 AM You have to unlock Pearls of Power? They are in the DMG.

Harliquinn

Most likely he was thinking Living Greyhawk. I make the same mistake sometimes.
Skerrit
07-03-07, 11:03 AM How will this work for things like Flaming, Flaming Burst, etc. which instead of being a single ability in the DMG are now '2 unlocks' in the MIC?

We haven't specifically made any descions based on the MIC.
Harliquinn
07-03-07, 12:11 PM Most likely he was thinking Living Greyhawk. I make the same mistake sometimes.

LG has to unlock DMG stuff? Wow, *hug* Xen'drik!!!
pedr
07-03-07, 12:15 PM LG works very, very very differently :D

The downside to the XE system is mentioned in the Expansion Slots thread - so many rules items, so few Expansion Slots!
Harliquinn
07-03-07, 01:22 PM LG works very, very very differently :D

The downside to the XE system is mentioned in the Expansion Slots thread - so many rules items, so few Expansion Slots!

Yeah, the multiple expansion slot costs for classes and feats has really made me think about the slots. Some of my character builds will not be as effective but I am still very much enjoying the campaign :) So all is good.
Marcus Majarra
07-03-07, 01:23 PM You have to unlock Pearls of Power? They are in the DMG.

Harliquinn

Oops, I meant items like Memento Magica. You'd have to unlock each level separately, I believe.
Timlagor
07-03-07, 07:25 PM Yeah, the multiple expansion slot costs for classes and feats has really made me think about the slots. Some of my character builds will not be as effective but I am still very much enjoying the campaign :) So all is good.

Actually it's the only one spell/item per ESlot that i find painful

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordAries 06-30-07, 11:50 PM	I was looking at playing a Dwarf Soulborn for my Covenant of Light character... I currently have a character of each of the other factions, and we might go ahead and play some of that. However, as I looked through the Magic of Incarnum I came across a really cool looking PRC, the Ironsoul Forgemaster, and it fits exactly with what I want my character to do... be a champion of the light for the Dwarven Gods. However, it has a limiting factor in Xendrik expeditions that I was hoping some of the faction masters could look at and POSSIBLY help to overcome so that it can become a playable PRC. The class gets craft arms and armor at 2nd level of the PRC, but doens't have spellcasting. Its assumed you would get help or use scrolls etc to be able to craft items. ALL of its abilities are based around using armor or weapons that are crafted by the character. However under current rules, my character would not EVER be able to craft anything, unless he took other levels to get spell casting abilities, that are not in line with the character, or its abilities. So in a way unless I go crazy and take a ton of other levels I don't want I can't use the class abilities for a class that designed to basically be a dwarven soulborn PRC option. Can the factionmasters or rules gurus take a look at this class, I really want to play it and I'd like to get SOME benifit from the abilities it gets. I know you have made an exception to the artificer rules to allow them to craft items .
lseelba 07-01-07, 02:10 PM	I don't think you are going to like the answer, but XE still uses caster level as a pre-requisite for creating any magic items. If you don't have any levels in spellcasting classes, I'm afraid you aren't going to be able to create any magic arms or armor. This requirement is on page 7. As a side note, I beg the factionmasters to change this in the next version of the XCS. It has been errata'ed in the DMG, and Living Greyhawk has dropped caster level as a pre-req. As far as I know, Xen'drik is the only campaign still using the old requirements.
LordAries 07-01-07, 02:23 PM	Well actually, the Ironsoul Forgemaster has an effective caster level equal to 3 times his levels of forgemaster but since he can't cast spells he can't make cool armor or arms... However if I want to make magic arms or armor with better than just a bonus, I need to be able to cast certain spells... and I can't.
lseelba 07-01-07, 07:11 PM	Well actually, the Ironsoul Forgemaster has an effective caster level equal to 3 times his levels of forgemaster but since he can't cast spells he can't make cool armor or arms... However if I want to make magic arms or armor with better than just a bonus, I need to be able to cast certain spells... and I can't. You really are off in unexplored territory here. The XCS doesn't speak directly to your question. Here is two possible interpretations though, of the relevant text from the XCS: You may only purchase an item for reduced cost with item creation feats if your character possesses the appropriate prerequisites for crafting the item including caster level... Artificers are assumed to automatically succeed in any Use Magic Device check necessary to craft an item that the artificer possesses the caster level to create. Lenient: Other classes can use UMD to craft stuff. As you know, anyone can cast spells from a scroll, it just takes the right amount of UMD. I don't know much about the Ironsoul Forgemaster, but most likely UMD will be a cross class skill. There are two main UMD checks you have to worry about. The first is casting the spell from the scroll, where the DC is 20+level of the spell. The second is needed if you have to emulate an ability score...ie if you are trying to cast a level 3 wizard score and you don't have 13 INT. That DC is 25+level of the spell. So a simple example would be flaming. You would want to cast Flame Blade from a scroll which is a 2nd level spell, requiring a 22 UMD check, which means you need at least a UMD modifier of +2 in order to succeed on a 20. If you did not have 12 WIS you would need a UMD modifier of +7. In addition you would need a caster level of 10. So basically, take ranks in UMD so that your modifier is high enough to cast the necessary spell from a scroll. Strict Interpretation: Only artificers can use UMD to craft an item. If your DM uses this interpretation, you really can't use UMD to make the cool weapons or armor, so you would need to take a one level dip into artificer. It's probably not worth it to do this just to get cheaper arms or armor, but it's your call. -Lou
LordAries 07-02-07, 12:33 AM	Well, its not so much that I want them cheaper... BUT if I craft my armor, using the current rules I could craft it as a +1 to +5 armor or sheild etc and get that at a cost of 3/4 the base cost... I guess I could pay normal cost to upgrade it to get cool abilities still. If I craft armor myself, it costs 3/4 as much... does that affect both its actual cost AND the value of the item for the item value cap? That is something I don't think has been covered and might cause some problems without a resolution.
Marcus Majarra 07-02-07, 12:56 AM	The XCS doesn't have any particular rules concerning what items can be crafted. It stipulates that all the requirements for an item must be met, including caster level. The Ironsoul Forgemaster secrets of the forge class feature allows the Forgemaster to meet caster level requirements for crafting magic arms and armor as if his caster level were equal to 3 times his Forgemaster level. Assuming he still meets the requirements for any magic arms and armor he wants to craft, the item can be created as per XCS. Enhancement bonuses for arms and armor only have a CL requirement (DMG217 and DMG221). Although they're rare, other items are available to nonspellcasting Forgemasters, such as Ki Focus weapons (assuming the Forgemaster is a monk) or a Dwarven Thrower (assuming the Forgemaster is at least 10th level).
lseelba 07-02-07, 11:34 AM	Well, its not so much that I want them cheaper... BUT if I craft my armor, using the current rules I could craft it as a +1 to +5 armor or sheild etc and get that at a cost of 3/4 the base cost... I guess I could pay normal cost to upgrade it to get cool abilities still. If I craft armor myself, it costs 3/4 as much... does that affect both its actual cost AND the value of the item for the item value cap? That is something I don't think has been covered and might cause some problems without a resolution. No just the actual cost. The gold piece limit is unaffected by your craft feat, so you have to compare the campaign cost to your level gold piece limit first to see if you can craft it, then you take the discount. This is on Page 10. Also, this is VERY IMPORTANT: non-consumables are crafted at 2/3 the published cost. The 3/4 number is wrong and will supposedly be fixed in the next campaign standards. The 2/3 number is on page 7. Also, personally, I'd go the UMD route if I was playing your character. The rules are vague, so expect some table variation, but the worst thing that can happen is that you have to retool your equipment right before you start a table.
LordAries 07-02-07, 06:12 PM	Umm... the way I read my campaign standards it said consumables are crafted for x3 instead of bought for x5. That would kinda make it 3/5ths but i prefer to look at it at x3 instead of x5. Craft arms and Armor... will that allow me to make Weapon Crystals? If I use an Expansion slot to unlock a weapon crystal, does that let me make least, lesser, and greater or just one of the versions.
Marcus Majarra 07-02-07, 11:28 PM	Craft Magic Arms and Armor will indeed allow you to create augment crystals, although you still have to meet other requirements. As to how unlocking will be administered, I cannot tell, although the current trend indicates that you'd only unlock one strength of a particular crystal per unlock (as is currently the case with, for example, pearls of power).
Skerrit 07-03-07, 08:50 AM	Marcus is correct. You unlock one crystqal, not the whole family of cystals.
Harliquinn 07-03-07, 09:28 AM	(as is currently the case with, for example, pearls of power). You have to unlock Pearls of Power? They are in the DMG. Harliquinn
Harliquinn 07-03-07, 09:29 AM	Marcus is correct. You unlock one crystqal, not the whole family of cystals. How will this work for things like Flaming, Flaming Burst, etc. which instead of being a single ability in the DMG are now '2 unlocks' in the MIC?
lseelba 07-03-07, 10:25 AM	You have to unlock Pearls of Power? They are in the DMG. Harliquinn Most likely he was thinking Living Greyhawk. I make the same mistake sometimes.
Skerrit 07-03-07, 11:03 AM	How will this work for things like Flaming, Flaming Burst, etc. which instead of being a single ability in the DMG are now '2 unlocks' in the MIC? We haven't specifically made any descions based on the MIC.
Harliquinn 07-03-07, 12:11 PM	Most likely he was thinking Living Greyhawk. I make the same mistake sometimes. LG has to unlock DMG stuff? Wow, hug Xen'drik!!!
pedr 07-03-07, 12:15 PM	LG works very, very very differently :D The downside to the XE system is mentioned in the Expansion Slots thread - so many rules items, so few Expansion Slots!
Harliquinn 07-03-07, 01:22 PM	LG works very, very very differently :D The downside to the XE system is mentioned in the Expansion Slots thread - so many rules items, so few Expansion Slots! Yeah, the multiple expansion slot costs for classes and feats has really made me think about the slots. Some of my character builds will not be as effective but I am still very much enjoying the campaign :) So all is good.
Marcus Majarra 07-03-07, 01:23 PM	You have to unlock Pearls of Power? They are in the DMG. Harliquinn Oops, I meant items like Memento Magica. You'd have to unlock each level separately, I believe.
Timlagor 07-03-07, 07:25 PM	Yeah, the multiple expansion slot costs for classes and feats has really made me think about the slots. Some of my character builds will not be as effective but I am still very much enjoying the campaign :) So all is good. Actually it's the only one spell/item per ESlot that i find painful