Special requirements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Special requirements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jeffpicard
07-22-06, 02:20 PM For all those fancy prestige class requirements, like Assassin (kill someone just to joint he assassins) blackguard (peaceful contact with an outsider), elemental savant (likewise with an elemental)
and any other non-restricted class that has an oddball requirement, are we going to be able to gloss over things that could occur behind the scenes this time? or are we Actually going to get story objects for these kinds of events?

there was supposed to be a toolbox for MoH a year ago that never materialized, so elemental savant for exasmple while not restricted, is impossible to take there becuase I've never seen a story object for it

It's not fair to tease players with blackguard being "available" to members of the cabal, but then never allow a DM to provide the evidence that this kind of campaign needs for the special requirement to have been met
Grantor
07-24-06, 05:47 PM I'm not speaking with any authority, but since this is an episodic campaign, where events happen outside of the adventuring (like buying new gear, acquiring spells), it seems to me that "social requirements" for prestige classes are assumed to have happened outside of the gameplay.

Thus, the "trained by a member", "part of a special org" and whatever else happen outside of the gameplay.

Just as any DM would have to work out the social requirements for a player that was dead set on a certain PrC, the XE campaign works around it by just foregoing those specific requirements.
Munchausen
07-24-06, 11:54 PM True. I am hopeing to be a future assasin. They (DM) might make a few changes in the requirements to be a assasin. If they do.. the should tell people.
jeffpicard
07-25-06, 12:34 AM I'm not speaking with any authority, but since this is an episodic campaign, where events happen outside of the adventuring (like buying new gear, acquiring spells), it seems to me that "social requirements" for prestige classes are assumed to have happened outside of the gameplay.

Thus, the "trained by a member", "part of a special org" and whatever else happen outside of the gameplay.

Just as any DM would have to work out the social requirements for a player that was dead set on a certain PrC, the XE campaign works around it by just foregoing those specific requirements.

The problem with making that assumption is it's not true for MoH, where you could have made the same assumption. A more valid assumtion is "they ruled that you need a story object for such things in Mark of Heroes, and since this is the same group and the same basic campaign structure, we should assume the same ruling will apply here until told otherwise"

Hence the post, in case someone has forgotten all about this little complication, this will remind the higher ups that they need to give an answer on this, or provide the tools we need to actually open things.
Mherduwynn
08-02-06, 03:32 AM The Xen'drik Expeditions Campaign Sourcebook v1.0 addresses this:

Special Requirements for Prestige Classes: In the case of event-based prerequisites for qualifying for a prestige class, a PC requires a story object stating that the event has been achieved. Other sources of campaign documentation may also qualify as stated by the document in question.

-August
jeffpicard
08-02-06, 09:44 AM Thank you for the answer, both here and to some of the other pressing questions :-) . This one is not what I was hoping for, hopefully though those writing the adventures and/or determining the story objects available during a dm's mark (especially in the cabal) will remember that we need some things to meet these requirements.

If a year from now no-one has been able to take levels of assassin because they haven't had the oppertunity to kill someone for it, then the cabal unlocking it will have been nothing more than worthless teasing.
waynemarkstubbs
08-02-06, 10:04 AM Does this include things that include 'judgement calls' like the Invisible Blade's requirement to defeat a "worthy opponent"? So if my character single-handedly brings down a balor, it doesn't count unless there's a story object associated with it?
jeffpicard
08-02-06, 10:36 AM That's most definatly an event-based requirement so yes, you need proof that you took down that balor with your little bitty knives.

Really that should be harder that proving that you killed someone to join the assassins, heck for that you could just kill some random npc at the beginning of each adventure just to do it ;-)
Japangirl
08-02-06, 03:09 PM As someone who plays an Invisible Blade in Living Greyhawk, it's not worth it if you want to be a rogue-type character. Wasted feats and gimped skills do not make up for slightly better to-hit and a free action feint usable once per round (check out the CW errata, lameness galore on that one). If you're mainly a fighter and you just want a little extra damage on some hits, it works alright, but it's still not great because you're stuck with a dagger.

There are two wasted feats going into Invisible Blade, Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, because you can't feint from range. Additionally, only daggers have a range. Punching daggers and kukris cannot be used as thrown weapons, unless it is as improvised thrown weapons, and then you can't sneak attack with them. Most people would be a two-weapon fighter, so that's more feat investment.

For a rogue, that's a lot of feats gone for no good reason. If you still are interested, my build is 4 rog/2 ftr/5 inv blade, the rest rogue. It works as a combat rogue, but I don't hide, move silently, disable traps, open locks, or disguise very well. All I do is bluff, tumble, and find traps, and that's very limited for a rogue. I still need a flank, and thus am still dependent on party members to do any damage at all.
Skerrit
08-02-06, 09:49 PM As you will see in the new Campaign Standards, the Assassin prestige class is completely unlocked. You need no special story object's to take this particular prestige class.
jeffpicard
08-02-06, 11:01 PM Great, I assumne that's because you could even theoretically lie about killing some one, and/or just kill random npc #957

Blackguard might have been a better one though, may even feel cheated, cause I'm sure some folks are planning on taking Pal levels expressly to get the bonuses.

and then there's the problem with a one shot deal, cause that could suck too ;-)

but time will tell, after all no-one is going to qualify for that for a while yet
Blaznak
08-03-06, 11:38 AM Blackguard might have been a better one though, may even feel cheated, cause I'm sure some folks are planning on taking Pal levels expressly to get the bonuses.

and then there's the problem with a one shot deal, cause that could suck too ;-)

Huh? I completely did not understand those comments ( but I am especially dense... ). Blackguard is completely unlocked now. And what's a "one shot deal"? Sorry for the confusion!
Thanks,
Jeff
jeffpicard
08-03-06, 06:33 PM Yeah, I just read that and was going to comment about it
I'm glad both of those lost their role play requirements for the Cabal

As for "one shot deal" I meant that if (for a remaning example) there's only One Adventure with an oppertunity to get s story object that will meet the requirements of Elemental Savant (requires a peaceful meeting with an elemental last I checked) and you either A: miss that adventure for some reason, or B Your DM decides not to give out that story object from a DM's Mark, it would suck if there wasn't another oppertunity in another adventure

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jeffpicard 07-22-06, 02:20 PM	For all those fancy prestige class requirements, like Assassin (kill someone just to joint he assassins) blackguard (peaceful contact with an outsider), elemental savant (likewise with an elemental) and any other non-restricted class that has an oddball requirement, are we going to be able to gloss over things that could occur behind the scenes this time? or are we Actually going to get story objects for these kinds of events? there was supposed to be a toolbox for MoH a year ago that never materialized, so elemental savant for exasmple while not restricted, is impossible to take there becuase I've never seen a story object for it It's not fair to tease players with blackguard being "available" to members of the cabal, but then never allow a DM to provide the evidence that this kind of campaign needs for the special requirement to have been met
Grantor 07-24-06, 05:47 PM	I'm not speaking with any authority, but since this is an episodic campaign, where events happen outside of the adventuring (like buying new gear, acquiring spells), it seems to me that "social requirements" for prestige classes are assumed to have happened outside of the gameplay. Thus, the "trained by a member", "part of a special org" and whatever else happen outside of the gameplay. Just as any DM would have to work out the social requirements for a player that was dead set on a certain PrC, the XE campaign works around it by just foregoing those specific requirements.
Munchausen 07-24-06, 11:54 PM	True. I am hopeing to be a future assasin. They (DM) might make a few changes in the requirements to be a assasin. If they do.. the should tell people.
jeffpicard 07-25-06, 12:34 AM	I'm not speaking with any authority, but since this is an episodic campaign, where events happen outside of the adventuring (like buying new gear, acquiring spells), it seems to me that "social requirements" for prestige classes are assumed to have happened outside of the gameplay. Thus, the "trained by a member", "part of a special org" and whatever else happen outside of the gameplay. Just as any DM would have to work out the social requirements for a player that was dead set on a certain PrC, the XE campaign works around it by just foregoing those specific requirements. The problem with making that assumption is it's not true for MoH, where you could have made the same assumption. A more valid assumtion is "they ruled that you need a story object for such things in Mark of Heroes, and since this is the same group and the same basic campaign structure, we should assume the same ruling will apply here until told otherwise" Hence the post, in case someone has forgotten all about this little complication, this will remind the higher ups that they need to give an answer on this, or provide the tools we need to actually open things.
Mherduwynn 08-02-06, 03:32 AM	The Xen'drik Expeditions Campaign Sourcebook v1.0 addresses this: Special Requirements for Prestige Classes: In the case of event-based prerequisites for qualifying for a prestige class, a PC requires a story object stating that the event has been achieved. Other sources of campaign documentation may also qualify as stated by the document in question. -August
jeffpicard 08-02-06, 09:44 AM	Thank you for the answer, both here and to some of the other pressing questions :-) . This one is not what I was hoping for, hopefully though those writing the adventures and/or determining the story objects available during a dm's mark (especially in the cabal) will remember that we need some things to meet these requirements. If a year from now no-one has been able to take levels of assassin because they haven't had the oppertunity to kill someone for it, then the cabal unlocking it will have been nothing more than worthless teasing.
waynemarkstubbs 08-02-06, 10:04 AM	Does this include things that include 'judgement calls' like the Invisible Blade's requirement to defeat a "worthy opponent"? So if my character single-handedly brings down a balor, it doesn't count unless there's a story object associated with it?
jeffpicard 08-02-06, 10:36 AM	That's most definatly an event-based requirement so yes, you need proof that you took down that balor with your little bitty knives. Really that should be harder that proving that you killed someone to join the assassins, heck for that you could just kill some random npc at the beginning of each adventure just to do it ;-)
Japangirl 08-02-06, 03:09 PM	As someone who plays an Invisible Blade in Living Greyhawk, it's not worth it if you want to be a rogue-type character. Wasted feats and gimped skills do not make up for slightly better to-hit and a free action feint usable once per round (check out the CW errata, lameness galore on that one). If you're mainly a fighter and you just want a little extra damage on some hits, it works alright, but it's still not great because you're stuck with a dagger. There are two wasted feats going into Invisible Blade, Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, because you can't feint from range. Additionally, only daggers have a range. Punching daggers and kukris cannot be used as thrown weapons, unless it is as improvised thrown weapons, and then you can't sneak attack with them. Most people would be a two-weapon fighter, so that's more feat investment. For a rogue, that's a lot of feats gone for no good reason. If you still are interested, my build is 4 rog/2 ftr/5 inv blade, the rest rogue. It works as a combat rogue, but I don't hide, move silently, disable traps, open locks, or disguise very well. All I do is bluff, tumble, and find traps, and that's very limited for a rogue. I still need a flank, and thus am still dependent on party members to do any damage at all.
Skerrit 08-02-06, 09:49 PM	As you will see in the new Campaign Standards, the Assassin prestige class is completely unlocked. You need no special story object's to take this particular prestige class.
jeffpicard 08-02-06, 11:01 PM	Great, I assumne that's because you could even theoretically lie about killing some one, and/or just kill random npc #957 Blackguard might have been a better one though, may even feel cheated, cause I'm sure some folks are planning on taking Pal levels expressly to get the bonuses. and then there's the problem with a one shot deal, cause that could suck too ;-) but time will tell, after all no-one is going to qualify for that for a while yet
Blaznak 08-03-06, 11:38 AM	Blackguard might have been a better one though, may even feel cheated, cause I'm sure some folks are planning on taking Pal levels expressly to get the bonuses. and then there's the problem with a one shot deal, cause that could suck too ;-) Huh? I completely did not understand those comments ( but I am especially dense... ). Blackguard is completely unlocked now. And what's a "one shot deal"? Sorry for the confusion! Thanks, Jeff
jeffpicard 08-03-06, 06:33 PM	Yeah, I just read that and was going to comment about it I'm glad both of those lost their role play requirements for the Cabal As for "one shot deal" I meant that if (for a remaning example) there's only One Adventure with an oppertunity to get s story object that will meet the requirements of Elemental Savant (requires a peaceful meeting with an elemental last I checked) and you either A: miss that adventure for some reason, or B Your DM decides not to give out that story object from a DM's Mark, it would suck if there wasn't another oppertunity in another adventure