Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Istaran 08-08-07, 07:39 PM	I am unable to register my new Covenant of Light character because my new creation card is not on the list. I guess I can play at least one session with my fresh brand-new unregistered character and not sweat it (I'm unlikely to get another chance to play CoL until at least the next level bump afterwards as I am the area's dedicated CoL DM. )
Shandronas 08-08-07, 09:47 PM	Out of curiosity, which card is it?
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 10:58 PM	My guess is 'Breaking the Mold.'
Istaran 08-08-07, 11:27 PM	My guess is 'Breaking the Mold.' Now that I can get to my cards, yep that's the one. I also now have personal rather than just philosophical reasons to wish the Faction Masters were willing to rule on core rules matters. Tentacle Whip looks like it's going to be very much an "expect table variations" type thing, which has forced me to give up on some cool ideas. Oh well.
Madfox11 08-09-07, 07:27 AM	I have a feeling the faction masters are bound by the same limitations as the LG circle is in regards to rulings on core D&D rules. Which is to say: "they cannot make any rulings in this regard."
Harliquinn 08-09-07, 08:03 AM	Now that I can get to my cards, yep that's the one. I also now have personal rather than just philosophical reasons to wish the Faction Masters were willing to rule on core rules matters. Tentacle Whip looks like it's going to be very much an "expect table variations" type thing, which has forced me to give up on some cool ideas. Oh well. Well as a Daelkyr Half-Blood, I intend on taking the Tentacle Whip ASAP. I don't remember anything about it that really calls for much variation in rulings. What part did you see specifically?
Skerrit 08-09-07, 09:09 AM	I am unable to register my new Covenant of Light character because my new creation card is not on the list. I guess I can play at least one session with my fresh brand-new unregistered character and not sweat it (I'm unlikely to get another chance to play CoL until at least the next level bump afterwards as I am the area's dedicated CoL DM. ) I don't expect WOTC's database people to get around to updating the creation cards before the end of the campaign. If it doesn't appear by Gen Con, choose a different creation card in the database and then make a note of the correct card in the first entry on your Adventure Journal.
Skerrit 08-09-07, 09:10 AM	I have a feeling the faction masters are bound by the same limitations as the LG circle is in regards to rulings on core D&D rules. Which is to say: "they cannot make any rulings in this regard." You are correct. We are not allowed to make rules calls, that's up to the DM at the table, except on those rules that are directly affected by the creation of the organized play setting.
Istaran 08-09-07, 02:45 PM	Well as a Daelkyr Half-Blood, I intend on taking the Tentacle Whip ASAP. I don't remember anything about it that really calls for much variation in rulings. What part did you see specifically? Mainly the question is does the Tentacle Whip count as a whip in any way? If so in which ways? It never says it counts as a whip, but the text refers to it as "the whip" repeatedly, which may just be a shortened version of "the tentacle whip" or may have been meant to mean it is a whip. If it is a whip, you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip) or you take -4 on attack rolls. If it is not a whip do you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (tentacle whip)? Does it automatically give you proficiency with itself? (there's a bit of text saying it guides its host's hand, but that seems to be purely flavor text. Nothing explicit about proficiency to be found). If it is a whip, does that mean it doesn't threaten? (though it clearly does deal lethal damage and not nonlethal.) Does the damage get negated against targets with 1+ armor bonus or 3+ nat armor bonus as is the case for a normal whip? If it is not a whip, can you trip with it? It says you gain a +4 bonus to trip attempts with it, but if I recall correctly it doesn't say you -can- trip with it, and by default you cannot trip with a weapon. If it is a whip, does it get the unnamed +2 bonus all whips get to disarm attempts on top of the specific unnamed +4 bonus tentacle whips say they get on disarm attempts? If it is a whip, does it provoke AoOs when you attack with it? Clearly it does not when you make a disarm or trip attempt with it (says so in the text) but it is silent about whether you provoke when making a normal attack, making it important whether it is a whip or not. It would be nice if the FMs could come up with answers to these questions and make them the 'official' answers for how these details play out within XE until further rulings come out with regards to the primary sources.. I understand you can't (and could risk getting swamped with such questions if you did take that upon yourselves). It particularly is an issue when you are looking at going to a convention and playing your character with an unknown DM that you can't consult with before hand. So I'm taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Tentacle Whip) and letting the DM decide whether that is the same thing as Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip). Either way, no -4 on whipping things. I'm going to not choose build options that rely on the weapon threatening (I wanted to use the knight ability to make the 15' around me difficult terrain for any enemy that starts their turn in it, so when they're prone 10' away they have to stand (a move action) and can't 5' into range to attack me or anyone else. And then closing will provoke if they can't tumble. Maybe I'll bring a knight build and a non-knight build, get the table ruling decided for me, then chose accordingly?) I won't take Combat Reflexes if I don't threaten. Etc.
Harliquinn 08-09-07, 02:54 PM	The answers to most of your questions can be found in the description of Symbionts and in the Tentacle Whip specifically... It never says it counts as a whip, but the text refers to it as "the whip" repeatedly, which may just be a shortened version of "the tentacle whip" or may have been meant to mean it is a whip. You can use it as a natural weapon (using its attack stats) or as a if holding a whip (using your attack stats). This is in the description of the whip in Magic of Eberron. If it is a whip, you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip) or you take -4 on attack rolls. If it is not a whip do you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (tentacle whip)? Does it automatically give you proficiency with itself? (there's a bit of text saying it guides its host's hand, but that seems to be purely flavor text. Nothing explicit about proficiency to be found). A character is always considered proficient with a symbiont weapon. This is in the general description of the Symbionts and stated explicitly. You would not be proficient in a normal whip without the feat, but using the Symbiont you would be proficient in its use. If it is a whip, does that mean it doesn't threaten? (though it clearly does deal lethal damage and not nonlethal.) Does the damage get negated against targets with 1+ armor bonus or 3+ nat armor bonus as is the case for a normal whip? As a natural weapon, I believe it threatens. Using it as a whip in hand, I'm not positive. This isn't laid out explicitly, but I would guess that yes, it does threaten since it is still a living creature. Also it does do its normal damage against armored creatures. The symbiont is not a regular whip and only regular whips have those restrictions. Whip-like objects (including whip-daggers and several items in Magic Item Compendium) do not suffer the same restrictions. If it is not a whip, can you trip with it? It says you gain a +4 bonus to trip attempts with it, but if I recall correctly it doesn't say you -can- trip with it, and by default you cannot trip with a weapon. If it is a whip, does it get the unnamed +2 bonus all whips get to disarm attempts on top of the specific unnamed +4 bonus tentacle whips say they get on disarm attempts? You use it as a whip so you would get the whip's benefits of tripping. I believe the disarm bonus would be +2 if you wield it as a whip and +4 if you wield it as a natural weapon (creature). If it is a whip, does it provoke AoOs when you attack with it? Clearly it does not when you make a disarm or trip attempt with it (says so in the text) but it is silent about whether you provoke when making a normal attack, making it important whether it is a whip or not. Again, I would think that using it as a natural weapon would not provoke, but using it 'as a whip' would provoke as normal. It would be nice if the FMs could come up with answers to these questions and make them the 'official' answers for how these details play out within XE until further rulings come out with regards to the primary sources.. I understand you can't (and could risk getting swamped with such questions if you did take that upon yourselves). It particularly is an issue when you are looking at going to a convention and playing your character with an unknown DM that you can't consult with before hand. It's unlikely that you will see FM's answering rules questions like this. your best bet is to email customer service. That is at least a guideline that you can use. Ultimately some of the ambiguities will be left up to a DM to adjudicate but if you at least have some documentation that helps your situation. So I'm taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Tentacle Whip) and letting the DM decide whether that is the same thing as Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip). Either way, no -4 on whipping things. I'm going to not choose build options that rely on the weapon threatening (I wanted to use the knight ability to make the 15' around me difficult terrain for any enemy that starts their turn in it, so when they're prone 10' away they have to stand (a move action) and can't 5' into range to attack me or anyone else. And then closing will provoke if they can't tumble. Maybe I'll bring a knight build and a non-knight build, get the table ruling decided for me, then chose accordingly?) I won't take Combat Reflexes if I don't threaten. Etc. You don't need EWP (Tentacle Whip) to use the whip proficiently. This is clearly stated. The threatening part is a little more ambiguous but I would say if you use it like the natural weapon (using its bonuses) then it would certain threaten. A Daelkyr Half-Blood Knight would be an interesting character, certainly not within the 'norm' My character plans to go the Combat Expertise, Improve Trip, Arcane Channel lots of spells route. Harliquinn
Garden_State_Gamer 08-09-07, 03:26 PM	I feel a little bit of irony from "Breaking the Mold" as I was playing a Knight/Cleric combo in BWC before the card came out. I wound up scrapping that character for the most part, as I usually have to run BWC instead of play in it. Plus I'm having much more fun with my CoL Warforged Knight/Fighter/Juggernaut combo.
Istaran 08-09-07, 04:20 PM	The answers to most of your questions can be found in the description of Symbionts and in the Tentacle Whip specifically... I looked for them but did not find. These were just the questions I had left after looking. Thanks for your contribution. You can use it as a natural weapon (using its attack stats) or as a if holding a whip (using your attack stats). This is in the description of the whip in Magic of Eberron. The description says either it can attack on its own using its own stats (and no action on your part) which would be a nat weapon attack (but not made by you, limiting your options. And making trip/disarm really weak, due to it being a tiny creature doing the action), or you can wield it as a weapon. I believe it referred to wielding it as "a weapon" rather than a whip in particular but my book isn't handy. And the description is in Eberron Campaign Setting (unlike Daelkyr Half-Blood and most of the other usable symbionts). A character is always considered proficient with a symbiont weapon. This is in the general description of the Symbionts and stated explicitly. You would not be proficient in a normal whip without the feat, but using the Symbiont you would be proficient in its use. I looked for that proficiency rule but didn't see it. Do you know where it is? I'd prefer to have the rule to point at if asked. As a natural weapon, I believe it threatens. Using it as a whip in hand, I'm not positive. This isn't laid out explicitly, but I would guess that yes, it does threaten since it is still a living creature. Also it does do its normal damage against armored creatures. The symbiont is not a regular whip and only regular whips have those restrictions. Whip-like objects (including whip-daggers and several items in Magic Item Compendium) do not suffer the same restrictions. That's a good point about the nat weapon threatening.. I'm not sure if the creature itself can take AoOs when you are also using it.. Even if I use it 'as a whip' I expect it to do normal damage to armored creatures (it's the same attack as if the creature attacked w/ its nat weapon, which itself obviously damages armored creatures...) I'm not sure the comparison to 'whip-like' objects is relevant. Do they say you use this "as a whip" or something similar, then leave you to assume the whip properties don't apply? Or do they spell out exactly what they are and what they do and that happens to be similar to a whip but clearly different? It's important in that the question here is "What properties does a Tentacle Whip inherit from whip (if any)?". If a tentacle whip is not a whip the answer is "none". But if it is a whip then it seems like it would need to specifically override things that are different. You use it as a whip so you would get the whip's benefits of tripping. I believe the disarm bonus would be +2 if you wield it as a whip and +4 if you wield it as a natural weapon (creature). The +4 I refer to is explicitly added when you wield it as a weapon. There's a short list of special bonuses you get when you wield the tentacle whip as a weapon, such as +4 to disarm attempts and trip attempts (the str check) and those things niether threaten nor allow the opponent to turn them back on you if you fail. So if used as a whip you definitely get a +4 to disarm checks, but do you get the normal whip +2 on top of that or not? I'm not planning to push it, as I wasn't planning on disarming regularly. Again, I would think that using it as a natural weapon would not provoke, but using it 'as a whip' would provoke as normal. It can use itself as a natural weapon, making it a modest but completely free attack. Or you can use it as a weapon, which allows all kinds of benefits to be applied but might have some/all of the whip drawbacks. It's unlikely that you will see FM's answering rules questions like this. your best bet is to email customer service. That is at least a guideline that you can use. Ultimately some of the ambiguities will be left up to a DM to adjudicate but if you at least have some documentation that helps your situation. I've emailed cust serv. They took two days to come back with "ask the DM". Again I wish the FMs could/would field some of these things to prevent table variations that force me to reconsider my build conciderably. I don't blame them for staying out of it though. This is something that becomes an issue due to the shared play environment: in a home game I could ask the DM while I'm building my character and know whether something will work or not. In this setting 3 levels of knight is useful to me if and only if tentacle whip threatens, so it's a big deal and I can't even ask the DM in advance in this case since I don't know who it will be. You don't need EWP (Tentacle Whip) to use the whip proficiently. This is clearly stated. The threatening part is a little more ambiguous but I would say if you use it like the natural weapon (using its bonuses) then it would certain threaten. A Daelkyr Half-Blood Knight would be an interesting character, certainly not within the 'norm' I was thinking of doing a DHB Knight 3/Incarnate 4 with Shape Soulmeld(Mauling Gauntlets) for another +2-6 on my str checks to trip. Combined with the whip itself and Improved Trip I'd be tripping at +10-14 before counting str. Not bad! And I'd be immune to the attribute damage from my symbionts due to another soulmeld. So I could have my winter cyst detach and fire on its own turns for example. Fun stuff, and definitely unique. Good to hear I definitely don't need EWP. Should save me some feats for other stuff. The threatening issue is pretty key for me though. It has to be my character that threatens (not the whip itself) to give the benefits of Knight 3 and Combat Reflexes. And if it doesn't threaten then I just need to emphasize other parts of the build instead. My character plans to go the Combat Expertise, Improve Trip, Arcane Channel lots of spells route. Harliquinn Nice! I was looking at using Lightning Gauntlets bound to the Hand chakra to let me channel 4d6 electricity damage through one whip hit per round, namely the followup to the trip attempt. Meanwhile I would use a winter cyst to provide ranged fire, especially since it can act on its own once it detaches (though I note that also makes it susceptible to AoE spells as a seperate creature, rather than being treated as equipment, so discretion is necessary). Probably not as directly deadly as Arcane Channel, but a little more emphasis on always tripping successfully and stopping enemies from manuevering.
Harliquinn 08-09-07, 05:27 PM	I was partially right. The proficiency is handled under daelkyr half-blood entry on page 37. DHB are always proficient with any weapon-like symbionts, but other characters are not automatically proficient. As for the whip-weapon, it says "the host can use the whip as a weapon." It goes on to further say "the whip has a number of additional benefits." Based upon this, I would say you wield it as if you were wielding a whip, except for the differences noted (lethal damage, a +4 on disarm instead of +2 [I doubt they would stack], etc.) It also says you suffer no penalties when attempting to trip, so it can be used to trip as a whip. Also one interesting thing is you can use it in the off hand without penalty (except for wielding two weapons). I wonder then about a character with two of these :) Harliquinn
Istaran 08-09-07, 06:58 PM	I was partially right. The proficiency is handled under daelkyr half-blood entry on page 37. DHB are always proficient with any weapon-like symbionts, but other characters are not automatically proficient. Ah, missed that bit apparantly. At least that makes it undeniable; no need for EWP(whip). As for the whip-weapon, it says "the host can use the whip as a weapon." It goes on to further say "the whip has a number of additional benefits." Based upon this, I would say you wield it as if you were wielding a whip, except for the differences noted (lethal damage, a +4 on disarm instead of +2 [I doubt they would stack], etc.) Again it's a question of interpretation. Does "the whip" just mean "the tentacle whip" or does referring to it as "the whip" implicitly mean it counts as a whip, a specific rules item from PHB, except as otherwise noted. If you take "the whip" to just be a shortcut for "the Tentacle Whip" then it is only clear that you can wield the tentacle whip as "a weapon", not as a specific type of weapon. I still see nothing that says "this is a whip" or "this counts as a whip", unless we apply the L5R rule that anything whose name contains a word is one of those things. I.e. a darkwood buckler is a buckler (which is mysteriously also a light shield). I think if it does count as a whip the +2 and +4 should stack, as the +2 is an untyped bonus from the whip weapon type while the +4 is a seperate untyped bonus from an extraordinary property of this particular brand of whip. However, I do expect table variation. It also says you suffer no penalties when attempting to trip, so it can be used to trip as a whip. Yeah, in the case of it is not a whip, I was going to use the existance of bonuses to tripping as evidence that tripping is allowed.. Also one interesting thing is you can use it in the off hand without penalty (except for wielding two weapons). I wonder then about a character with two of these :) Harliquinn If you're willing to pay the EV for it.. a little steep right now, but not as bad when one can be your personal symbiont. a) You can attack with either or both as normal, suffering TWF penalties but no off hand penalties. (Does this mean you get 1xstr on both? ETV?) This makes it even plausible for someone without TWF feat. b) Each one you don't attack with during your turn can make it's own attack. They hit pretty weakly, but you could maybe play as a buff-caster and share spell Fist of Stone etc. with them? You just buff and let them do the hitting until you're ready to take control yourself?
lseelba 08-11-07, 02:40 PM	I am unable to register my new Covenant of Light character because my new creation card is not on the list. I guess I can play at least one session with my fresh brand-new unregistered character and not sweat it (I'm unlikely to get another chance to play CoL until at least the next level bump afterwards as I am the area's dedicated CoL DM. ) Here is a solution to your problem. Don't register your CoL character until the database is fixed. Play with him and explain to the DM that you haven't registered your character due to database issues. The game will be reported and the xp, gp, and story objects will go to your 'default character'. Once the db is fixed and you register your character, all that gp and stuff will flow to your newly registered character. Be sure to delete any current CoL characters in the database first though. -Lou