Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lightblade 06-27-06, 11:23 AM	Hey, all. I had been making seperate threads to talk about specific things I found interesting about the campaign standards draft, but I think having one consolodated thread might be better at the moment. So, lets start. First off: It looks like only equipment may be retooled. It doesn't look like they are allowing feat, skill, or class options (ie rogue ability) to be retooled. While this is a departure from Mark of Heroes, it seems like a good idea. Thoughts?
Sutro 06-27-06, 02:03 PM	It's an oddity that every non-Oriental base class is included... except for the Hexblade. Weird. -Morgan Hardy Nashville
Lightblade 06-27-06, 02:40 PM	That is odd. No MoH campaign cards open up the Hexblade, either. One other thing that leads to questions: many interesting races and classes can be opened up by faction membership. Do their corresponding rules items get opened up as well? For example, one can probably safely assume that a warlock doesn't need to put his invocations on the expansion list; otherwise his entire expansion list could only be used for invocations. But what about spells on the warmage, duskblade, and beguiler spell lists from the Spell Compendium or PHBII? As for races, the MoH card "Taint of the Daelkyr" was very clear to unlock the racial bonus feat, as well as the various symbiote options. I hope that the same can be said for the Cabal of Shadows access.
TimRat 06-27-06, 03:16 PM	For the warlock ya its safe to assume that all the rules materials from the book that the class is in is ok to use once their unlocked. so the beguiler and duskblade spells since there located in the PHB2 are available. I am going to post a list of answers here in a second and tell you how i'm goign to collect these types of questions and how often they will be responded too.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 06-27-06, 04:45 PM	It's an oddity that every non-Oriental base class is included... except for the Hexblade. Weird. -Morgan Hardy Nashville Spirit Shaman isn't represented is it?
Sutro 06-27-06, 05:27 PM	Spirit Shaman is debatable whether or not it is an Oriental class. Setting that aside, the Hexblade is included in several Living campaigns and is one of the base classes given a treatment in the PHB2 (and all other classes that were given such treatments were included in the XECGS). In addition, it is supported throughout the Complete series with additions to its spell list. However, the Spirit Shaman, to my knowledge, isn't allowed in any Living campaigns (possibly because of Oriental flavor) and isn't mentioned in any product outside of CD. -Morgan
RatShifter 06-27-06, 09:11 PM	I dont believe Spellthief is available either. At least I can not find it. There is one Mark of Heroes card, but it opens up the class as expansion and with some very stupid requirements for a melee class.
Lightblade 06-28-06, 12:06 AM	Spirit Shaman is debatable whether or not it is an Oriental class. Setting that aside, the Hexblade is included in several Living campaigns and is one of the base classes given a treatment in the PHB2 (and all other classes that were given such treatments were included in the XECGS). In addition, it is supported throughout the Complete series with additions to its spell list. However, the Spirit Shaman, to my knowledge, isn't allowed in any Living campaigns (possibly because of Oriental flavor) and isn't mentioned in any product outside of CD. -Morgan Spirit Shaman wasn't printed in Oriental Adventures, hence it isn't an Oriental class. Also, there is a blurb in the Player's Guide to Eberron saying that spirit shaman are to be treated like druids with the ability to pick up druid sect feats.
Lightblade 06-28-06, 12:11 AM	I dont believe Spellthief is available either. At least I can not find it. There is one Mark of Heroes card, but it opens up the class as expansion and with some very stupid requirements for a melee class. The mark of heroes card *is* what makes it available. Yes, the fact that you need arcane spellcasting ability means you should probably start your character with a level of sorceror or bard (or possibly beguiler or duskling, if you'e in the Cabal of Shaows), and then go spellthief. The one level dip is somewhat mitigated by the fact that as an expansion card, you need only lose one campaign card slot instead of three, giving your character a two action-point lead on those that use creation cards
RatShifter 06-28-06, 04:21 AM	Aye I said the card was the only way. Considering how many base classes are allowed to start at level 1, I just find it odd that spellthief is like that. Especially for a class that is so very dependant on its level for its abilities to function. Like I said, just seems like strange requirements to me. It is very nice flavor text, and makes sense for that card. I just think there should be a way to qualify for it just like nearly all the other base classes at level 1. I would gladly give up 3 points to play one, just cause I think they are ultra cool if played properly. :) The mark of heroes card *is* what makes it available. Yes, the fact that you need arcane spellcasting ability means you should probably start your character with a level of sorceror or bard (or possibly beguiler or duskling, if you'e in the Cabal of Shaows), and then go spellthief. The one level dip is somewhat mitigated by the fact that as an expansion card, you need only lose one campaign card slot instead of three, giving your character a two action-point lead on those that use creation cards
Lightblade 06-28-06, 09:21 AM	I think the problem is they limited each faction to 3 extra base classes, and thematically assigned them. They included pretty much all the new stuff from Magic of Incarnum and PHBII, and filled in the gaps they had left. I think a spellthief would have been great flavor for the Cabal of Shadows, but they already had the Beguiler and the Duskblade, which combined fit either niche that the Spellthief had. Personally, I would have given the Hexblade to the Cabal of Shadows, given the Duskblade to the Blackwheel Company, and removed the Marshall entirely (along with the rest of the Miniatures Handbook; there are just too many ridiculously cheap magic items in there). As for playing a spellthief: Now that I think about it, you'll probably get the most out of it if you start with a level of Rogue, and at 1st level take some feat from Complete Arcane that lets you cast some cantrips, letting you use the expansion card. Sure, you lose a feat vs taking that bard (or beguiler) level, but you get an extra die of sneak, which is incredibly valuable for a spellthief. (I've never played one, but i'm sure dips in Rogue are common for them). One more thing. Nobody has yet mentioned the Healer as a base class not mentioned. That class really gets no love from the RPGA, it would seem.
Lightblade 06-28-06, 11:08 AM	So, I noticed that the "need campaign documentation" star appears next to the cleric and druid in the list of starting gold for classes on page 8. I'm just calling this out as an error to be fixed. (The inset box 3 pages previous correctly lists them as freely available classes).
RatShifter 06-28-06, 12:09 PM	LOL! *insert conspiracy theory* The RPGA finally noticed how uber those classes are and removed them! *conspiacy theory off* Nice catch on that one. :) It reminds me of a quote from the dnd website. "The dnd rules are a nuclear weapon...and in the post apocalyptic world, everyone wants to be the cleric" So, I noticed that the "need campaign documentation" star appears next to the cleric and druid in the list of starting gold for classes on page 8. I'm just calling this out as an error to be fixed. (The inset box 3 pages previous correctly lists them as freely available classes).
Lightblade 06-28-06, 01:37 PM	Page 2, second to last paragraph, states that if you don't bring the proper references for expanded rules items you are using, the DM can eject you from the session, or dock you some action points. While an interesting idea, I hope that there are some guidelines given to judges so that they know what's appropriate and what's not. Having judged a lot of Mark of Heroes last Gen Con, it's nice that a judge can do something short of ejecting the player from the table because they don't have the necessary reference books. But that's my 2 cents. Discuss.
ChristopherGroves 06-28-06, 03:36 PM	Is the Repair Package meant to have four Repair items or just the one and three cures ... I've got to think it should have four repairs for the 'forged masses ...
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 06-28-06, 11:27 PM	I think that the Artificer being limited to crafting items that are at or below half their ranks in UMD is isn’t very fair to players of Artificers. I can just see the players anxiously awaiting level 15 so they can finally create a Hewards Handy Haversack for themselves. Or thirteen level in order to create any of the stat boost items that almost any D&D character wears. Also, this rule would directly contradict the Item Creation ability of the Artificer class that sets it apart from the others. To the factionmasters, I ask you to take a second look at this regulation.
Marcus Majarra 06-29-06, 12:59 AM	I think that the Artificer being limited to crafting items that are at or below half their ranks in UMD is isn’t very fair to players of Artificers. I can just see the players anxiously awaiting level 15 so they can finally create a Hewards Handy Haversack for themselves. Or thirteen level in order to create any of the stat boost items that almost any D&D character wears. Also, this rule would directly contradict the Item Creation ability of the Artificer class that sets it apart from the others. To the factionmasters, I ask you to take a second look at this regulation. It's a bit ironic, considering that artificers can generally qualify to create items that are normally two caster levels above their own. The thing is, any artificer worth his money is going to take Extraordinary Artisan and wind up with equipment easily worth twice his EV. In no way do the current standards prevent the 7th-level artificer from simply buying his +2 cloak of charisma at the normal campaign cost (4000gp); they just prevent him from making it. I would suggest something more reasonable for artificers, though, as they will lose almost all of their offensive potential (which, unfortunately, originates from high-CL consumables) with this kind of limit.
Madfox11 06-29-06, 05:36 AM	Artificers start to do rediculous things at level 10+ with the current rules. During a play-test I had an artificer suggest buying a 9th level scroll, which he could easily use, and which use would have totally screwed the adventure. The irony was that because of the crafting rules he still had enough gold left to buy a ****-load of other equipment even though he had just spend 20,000 gp on 1 item. I am not sure this rule prevents the problem, but it might help... Personally, I think that artificers are way too powerful in these kind of campaigns where action points and gold are automatically returned at the end of an adventure. Granted, it is still a somewhat boring class to play, but those enhancement infusions are way too powerful for their levels and their UMD is way too easy to raise up to automatic success even for 9th level scrolls.
kiddoc 06-29-06, 06:55 AM	To the factionmasters, I ask you to take a second look at this regulation. Unfortunately, this one isn't our call. We are in charge of bringing you all the amazing content you're going to play, and some of the most clever, dynamic adventures that I've had the opportunity of laying eyes upon. But, we're content monkeys--that allows us to really focus in on what we do best. We do put our 2-cents in with rules and regs, but the RPGA folks have designed a set of rules they think will work best with this campaign. We'll pass on the word--but it's not a unilateral decision for us to make.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 06-29-06, 09:19 AM	In no way do the current standards prevent the 7th-level artificer from simply buying his +2 cloak of charisma at the normal campaign cost (4000gp); they just prevent him from making it. I never said that they couldn't buy the item for full price but that the wouldn't be able to create them. Another example is that they wouldn't be able to make +2 Weapons or Armor until 9th or +3 until 15th. Artificers start to do rediculous things at level 10+ with the current rules. During a play-test I had an artificer suggest buying a 9th level scroll, which he could easily use, and which use would have totally screwed the adventure. That's where the judge/DM needs to say something to the effect of, "You want to go but a Scroll of BLANK? Okay. Why don't you head down to the local Scroll Emporium see if they've got one in stock." You roll some dice. "Nope, looks like a Wizard just bought them out of Scrolls of BLANK."
Marcus Majarra 06-29-06, 11:09 AM	That's where the judge/DM needs to say something to the effect of, "You want to go but a Scroll of BLANK? Okay. Why don't you head down to the local Scroll Emporium see if they've got one in stock." You roll some dice. "Nope, looks like a Wizard just bought them out of Scrolls of BLANK." That would go against the principles of the standards which give you free reign over what equipment you purchase, as long as the item is limited/unlimited for you.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 06-29-06, 01:23 PM	That would go against the principles of the standards which give you free reign over what equipment you purchase, as long as the item is limited/unlimited for you. I'm sorry I think that we have a misunderstanding. Your statement is 100% if a player is chosing to buy something out of their EV prior to the start of the event; however, during a game the module and the judge are the determining factors on if a certain item is available to buy or not. Also, there are town/city size Gold Piece limits to consider so while you my be able to pick up Scrolls of Wish in Sharn finding one in Greenholt probably isn't going to happen.
woolybooger 06-29-06, 04:27 PM	i am unfamiliar with a lot of how rpga works, though i have played a few times. this campaign sounds great and had several characters spring to mind. there seems to be a discrepency in what races and classes are allowed as written in the campaign standards document and the postings i've seen for what characters people want to play. the XCS limits races and classes to those found in the PHB and a limited selection from ECS. how are people coming up with psions, drow, goliaths, etc.? Is there a comprhensive list of exactly what classes and which races are allowed. TIA
Docrailgun 06-29-06, 05:05 PM	I'm not sure about the Goliaths or psions, but there is a Mark of Heroes card (which reportedly will be useable in XE) that unlocks drow and half-drow characters. I believe it's called "Child of Vulkoor". The race I want to play (Gnoll) is unlocked by being part of the Blackwheel Company faction. Unfortunately, I will probably have to play a Marshal (which is also unlocked by the faction) rather than a Knight (which is unlocked by a different faction), just to make things simpler at the table. i am unfamiliar with a lot of how rpga works, though i have played a few times. this campaign sounds great and had several characters spring to mind. there seems to be a discrepency in what races and classes are allowed as written in the campaign standards document and the postings i've seen for what characters people want to play. the XCS limits races and classes to those found in the PHB and a limited selection from ECS. how are people coming up with psions, drow, goliaths, etc.? Is there a comprhensive list of exactly what classes and which races are allowed. TIA
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 06-29-06, 06:13 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/rewards/campaigncards All of the Mark of Heroes Cards you'll see if you follow the link above are allowed - that's how people are psions and whatnot.
Marcus Majarra 06-29-06, 06:34 PM	I'm sorry I think that we have a misunderstanding. Your statement is 100% if a player is chosing to buy something out of their EV prior to the start of the event; however, during a game the module and the judge are the determining factors on if a certain item is available to buy or not. Also, there are town/city size Gold Piece limits to consider so while you my be able to pick up Scrolls of Wish in Sharn finding one in Greenholt probably isn't going to happen. This only applies during the module itself, not when it comes to character retooling. In most cases, however, the players have no foreknowledge as to whether or not they will have access to magic shops in the module.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 06-29-06, 08:02 PM	This only applies during the module itself, not when it comes to character retooling. In most cases, however, the players have no foreknowledge as to whether or not they will have access to magic shops in the module. Exactly my point, Madfox11's example was in game using a PC artificer's considerable CoH. But, getting back to the topic at hand, will higher level Warlocks be held to this same standard of no CL higher than ranks UMD/2?
woolybooger 06-29-06, 09:28 PM	thanks frobi. i had thought of trying a psion, but since there dont seem to be any MOH games around here i haven't been able to get any cards. i guess there are 1 or 2 other possibilities though.
qstor 06-30-06, 09:50 AM	The race I want to play (Gnoll) is unlocked by being part of the Blackwheel Company faction. Unfortunately, I will probably have to play a Marshal (which is also unlocked by the faction) rather than a Knight (which is unlocked by a different faction), just to make things simpler at the table. how do you get the gnoll card? Is it in the normal mailing? Mike
kiddoc 06-30-06, 10:15 AM	how do you get the gnoll card? Is it in the normal mailing? Mike You don't, unfortunately. :( The only way to unlock the gnoll race (at this moment) is to join up with the Blackwheel Company--where you get the unlock for free. :)
TimRat 06-30-06, 08:29 PM	there are also 2 more new races you can have in the new xendrik expeditions set. you can be a catfolk or an asheraati from sandstorm. some good cards in the set.
sentinelmarshal 07-01-06, 03:45 PM	I have a question. Why is material (even base classes) from XPH still not allowed without a special unlock? Now, even dragonmarks are available (albeit only within Blackwheel), but those of us that did not get a "People of Mind" or "A 'Forged Apart" card cannot even play a basic psion. Maybe I'm being a little thick, but I don't understand why psionics requires such a special unlock and not just a place on our expansion lists - particularly because the rules are balanced enough for even a DM unfamiliar with them to easily incorporate them with the transparency rules (default for XEx and MoH, I know). Thoughts?
Lightblade 07-01-06, 11:08 PM	People of Mind, etc was reprinted in the second set; making it less rare. There is also an expansion card that lets a changling take psionic classes. Finally, one of the cards you can obtain through the Delve at Gen con indy / so cal / winter fantasy will also unlock half-giants (and presumably XPH). That said: the debate on the strength of psionics versus magic is always present. Some things (like Metamorphosis and summoning astral constructs) are seen as stronger than their magic counterparts. In a campaign such as LG, where one combat a day in game is the norm, psionics are powerful. In a day with many combats, as was the case of LGR and MoH, they are more evenly balanced. In any case, forcing psionicists to have a card unlock eats their action points, which some see as a method of balance. (Then again, it's a shame that playing a goblin will eat the same 3 AP that playing a kalashtar will).
ChristopherGroves 07-04-06, 12:29 PM	Is the Repair Package meant to have four Repair items or just the one and three cures ... I've got to think it should have four repairs for the 'forged masses ... Anyone see this? Does anyone have an answer?
sentinelmarshal 07-04-06, 04:32 PM	Is the Repair Package meant to have four Repair items or just the one and three cures ... I've got to think it should have four repairs for the 'forged masses ... Anyone see this? Does anyone have an answer? I see it, but I can't answer - this is something that needs to go to Wizards for an answer. Most likely the items are supposed to be all repair items and the info in XCS is a simple typo; if that's the case, when the actual XCS doc (1.0) comes out later this month it should be corrected. Personally, I don't know who to get ahold of for an answer to this one - I'll send a message to a few people to see what we can get.
ChristopherGroves 07-04-06, 10:14 PM	I was trying to be nice and ask here other than bug people individually. I can harras one of the factionmasters at lunch tomorrow and whine/complain until he gets me an answer.
Harliquinn 07-04-06, 10:15 PM	Do the Starting Packages replenish at the start of each adventure or are they a special 'one shot' only set of items?
sentinelmarshal 07-05-06, 01:05 AM	I was trying to be nice and ask here other than bug people individually. I can harras one of the factionmasters at lunch tomorrow and whine/complain until he gets me an answer. :) That could always work... I was actually waiting for an answer to this one as well. :waits: It's a good question - but I can also see that all anyone will be able to say is "wait a few weeks until the updated CS comes out, then we can address it if it's not clear..." Anyway, I shot off a few emails myself for this - but I don't work at WotC or for the RPGA, nor do I know anyone who does - I'm all on my own here. :allalone: Oh, well.
haferka 07-05-06, 08:03 AM	... the debate on the strength of psionics versus magic is always present. Some things (like Metamorphosis and summoning astral constructs) are seen as stronger than their magic counterparts. In a campaign such as LG, where one combat a day in game is the norm, psionics are powerful. In a day with many combats, as was the case of LGR and MoH, they are more evenly balanced. In any case, forcing psionicists to have a card unlock eats their action points, which some see as a method of balance. (Then again, it's a shame that playing a goblin will eat the same 3 AP that playing a kalashtar will). All they have to do is REQUIRE the updated version of Astral Construct (from Complete Psionic) to bring it back down in power... Also, get an errata on "Power Link" from the Magic of Eberron... or Restrict the item untill it has errata. Currently, it allows a psion to manifest beyond their manifestor level... kinda like allowing a spellcaster to add metamagic feats without raising the spell slot required for the spell.
smerwin29 07-05-06, 08:27 AM	Do the Starting Packages replenish at the start of each adventure or are they a special 'one shot' only set of items? When you choose a "Starting Package" in your first expansion slot, whenever you equip your character before an event (at 1st level and beyond), you can buy those times for two times the price instead of 5 times. Shawn Crimson Codex Factionmaster Guy
smerwin29 07-05-06, 08:30 AM	Is the Repair Package meant to have four Repair items or just the one and three cures ... I've got to think it should have four repairs for the 'forged masses ... I assume the same as you, but I will have to ask. If it is changed, it will probably not be changed until Version 1 of the CS is released, so keep an eye there. Shawn Crimson Codex Factionmaster Guy
ChristopherGroves 07-05-06, 10:02 AM	Thanks Shawn. Brian will probably say the same thing at lunch when I bug him ... but at least I've done my part to make sure the man isn't oppressing the 'forged masses.
Lightblade 07-05-06, 11:48 AM	All they have to do is REQUIRE the updated version of Astral Construct (from Complete Psionic) to bring it back down in power... Also, get an errata on "Power Link" from the Magic of Eberron... or Restrict the item untill it has errata. Currently, it allows a psion to manifest beyond their manifestor level... kinda like allowing a spellcaster to add metamagic feats without raising the spell slot required for the spell. An errata is already in the pipeline. See this post: http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-521212.html
Lightblade 07-09-06, 09:04 PM	How can a character go about getting a base class from Complete Psionic? I'd love to play a Changling Lurk in the Crimson Codex (via the expansion card from MoH). I'd like to propose that a creation/expansion card that gives access to the XPH also give access to CP base classes. Failing that, perhaps getting a CP base class could use a characters first few expansion slots. Also, wording that requires the use of powers as presented in the CP would help with balance issues.