Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Istaran 07-19-07, 04:09 PM	Is it just me or is XE a whole lot easier than LG? In 2 years of LG I've perma-died twice, and my current primary character has died twice as well. Since the beginning of XE none of my 3 PCs have gone unconcious in a fight, I have not witnessed a single PC death, let alone a TPK. That is not to say XE is a cake-walk. My last Cabal mod came down to a one on one between my dragonfire adept and the big bad guy (who fortunately ran out of dangerous stuff and had to resort to stabbing at my adamantine body with a dagger). In another case I've been standing at 8 HP (with 10 coming from rage) when the enemy that's been doing 20+ damage per round finally drops, with another two between me and the healer. And certainly as a GM you notice all sorts of lovely optional fights the PCs can pick if they want to die, such as a certain black dragon in the first arc of Covenant of Light. But overall it feels like XE is far less deadly. I'd like to thank the FMs for making a campaign in which my friends and I feel challenged without feeling doomed. But I'd also like to hear what other players feel about all of this. Has your experience been similar? How does this impact your enjoyment of the game, for better or worse? Has this been a factor for you or in your area as to who plays XE and who does not?
Zantumal_Waveharp 07-19-07, 04:15 PM	Personally, We have had one death, and a whole list of others that were captured and presumed dead. Strangely enough all were cabal characters.:confused:
WolfStar76 07-19-07, 04:40 PM	I think part of the difference stems from a smaller level-range to adjust for. For the most part there's a 4-level stretch between the high and low characters in XE. LG mods, from what I've seen (I haven't played LG) cover a span of 8 levels sometimes (maybe more?). While the APL of a module may be changed to accomodate for that, I've heard it said that it's easier to write and adjust encounters for XE. That may be what's accounting for the lower death rate. Makes me happy as a GM as well - because I hate killing off players - at cons anyway. Some of my regulars, on the other hand are fair game. . .
Harliquinn 07-19-07, 05:01 PM	Makes me happy as a GM as well - because I hate killing off players - at cons anyway. Some of my regulars, on the other hand are fair game. . . Gah! I hope I'm not considered a regular yet :) Well as DM I had one player death in the first cabal mod. Since then we haven't had any other deaths, but have had some very near death experiences. I've found the campaign challenging as well and I do worry about death, so it hasn't become 'easy mode' for me by any stretch.
JJeff 07-19-07, 08:45 PM	I have personally caused 2 deaths as a GM so far. One during a night of murders and another in a tome of tomes. I know of another group in Singapore that TPK-ed in the latter. There have been many times that people have come close to death, but I think in the end there have been harder LG mods and there have been easier LG mods that the XE mods. It also depends where your character lives (IUZ? or the middle of the Bright Sands?) XE seems so far, for my players, to be more inter-player interactive. Puzzles, moral issues, everyone looking to a certain player in the middle of the game and going: "Orders, sir! What are our Orders!" or "What do you mean we lost another airship...". Not that these don't happen in an LG game, just that in LG there's sometimes a higher tendancy of just sitting there and letting the story run it's course.
Madfox11 07-20-07, 04:41 AM	The lethality is highly dependend on the DM and even more on the players. My experiences are indeed that Xen'drik is not nearly as hard as LG or my home campaign for that matter. My PC was only really threatened once and that was in Eyes of the Lich Queen part 1. Most adventures are not cakewalks though. I realize though that is in no small part to the experience and teamwork of the group I usually play with. I know other groups in our region that have a considerably more difficult time with the exact same adventures. There even has been a semi-TPK with a cabal adventure. In fact, JJeffs remark about Tome of Tomes is the best example: it was an absolute cakewalk for our group. One thing that I have seen people underestimate highly is the use of expendable items especially in the levels we are at now. You get the gold back, so don't hesitate to use them even if you are unsure it will be useful. For example, the archivist has two wands of enlarge person and he uses it on the fight at the merest hint of a potential combat. I have a feeling this is going to be less useful once we reach higher levels since the low level scrolls and wands simply will have less of an impact. For now the fact is that for our group small fights do not significantly drain resources due to our extensive use of expendable items.
Marcus Majarra 07-20-07, 10:03 AM	I came pretty close to dying in CVN-1 Divine Inspiration. I was playing a raptoran sorcerer and fell unconscious and dying during the fight with the gang in the alleys of Stormreach. My air elemental familiar did most of the job of saving us until our warforged knight managed to get into action.
Lilinthra 07-20-07, 11:51 AM	A certain combat near the end of the first Expedition adventure was very tough for us. I think we had seven separate times where a character went unconscious, but no actual deaths (though at least one -9). Of course, 1st level PCs have to deal with such things more often than other levels. I haven't really witnessed that level of difficulty except in the 20 minute delves, which can encourage recklessness due to the time constraint and little penalty for dying.
lordtiberiusfoxx 07-20-07, 01:38 PM	I have to go with the consensus here. XE has definite lower leathality. Lets examine why: 1. The factionmasters aren't jerks. There are multiple stories from varies regions (which will remain unnamed) of triads being jerks. This has a bearing on individual rulings and on mod writing that can result in PC death and general frustration. We are blessed in XE that we don't have to worry about that. 2. Action points. Free stabilize and second wind are your friends, as is the action point roll on saves. It keeps characters alive. 3. DM's marks. Compare a DM's Mark to a special mission. DM's marks are easier most of the time and make your character look cool. 4. XE doesn't ban spells that keep you from dying. You can get Close Wounds by spending an expansion slot (In Greyhawk it is neither open nor closed), and later, we will have the wonder that is Revivify (closed in Greyhawk). The Greyhawk Revivify ban seemed pretty harsh to me, and a statement that they wanted characters to die anticlimactically on random crits. 5. Dragon Shamen. 'Nuff said. 6. More puzzles and roleplaying. The more time you take for this, that's less time an ogre is trying to pull your head off. 7. Greyhawk has a power level double standard. If something is banned for power level in LG to the players, often it isn't banned for NPCs, and will show up in encounters for the PCs to face. This has been a repeated complaint on LG message boards. 8. Because of level kicks, PCs aren't as squishy if they are just starting. Compare to the "oh just play up; we'll protect you! But I'm a front line fighter!" of LG. I think that's all of them... let me know if I missed any. :D
Wavester 07-20-07, 01:53 PM	No I think you pretty much insulted people that put more work into these campaigns then yourself pretty equally there. Dave C
Istaran 07-20-07, 03:15 PM	No I think you pretty much insulted people that put more work into these campaigns then yourself pretty equally there. Dave C What did you find insulting about his post? Just curious, since I seem to have missed it. 5. Dragon Shamen. 'Nuff said. They're great at low levels, and can be a nice resource saver w/ their vigor auras, but I'm not sure they're that big a deal, especially with action point stabilize, and a cleric (who maybe can cast Stabilize, or better yet Close Wounds and Delay Death, to say nothing of Augment Healing + Cure Critical Wounds). I play a sorc w/ a level of dragon shaman, and I've been finding that more and more the usefulness of that is I have a few more HP and proficiency with med armor/shields (I use only non-somatic spells, so I have not arcane failure). Have they been far more effectual in your area? In terms of breath weapon, I think I much prefer the Dragonfire Adept. Even then you can go the distance with breath weapons every round, but when you're doing roughly half what a normal arcanist would do per round it means the enemies take much longer to kill and everyone else is therefore in danger longer. 7. Greyhawk has a power level double standard. If something is banned for power level in LG to the players, often it isn't banned for NPCs, and will show up in encounters for the PCs to face. This has been a repeated complaint on LG message boards. This is particularly perverse in the case of Sudden metamagic feats, where the whole limitation of it (the 1/day nature) is a much bigger constraint on PCs (who often have 2-4 fights in one day) than it is for NPCs (who generally have 1 fight per lifetime, as far as the game is concerned). I note that in my area several of the better players have reached the point where they no longer care to put themselves through LG because they find themselves perpetually feeling like the mod writers are trying to kill them, and like they're barely pulling through by the skin of their teeth every single encounter, whereas in XE they find themselves challenged but not overwhelmed. For my own part, I don't feel it as keenly, but I am tired of being perpetually low level as repeated deaths have left me with a horribly suboptimal 6th level (who was, at one point, a running joke to see how long he could possibly survive) and the rest at level 2 or less. APL 2 combat is so low-powered and has so few options I would be happy to never play it again in my life. In XE I am guaranteed to reach 10th or so from level bumps eventually, and my experience is that I steadily climb in level when I play, rather than my experience in LG of repeatedly dying right before leveling, then spending months clawing back to where I was just to die again, perhaps permanently, sending me back to the dreaded APL 2 table. People are welcome to prefer that experience if they like.
Harliquinn 07-20-07, 03:51 PM	They're great at low levels, and can be a nice resource saver w/ their vigor auras, but I'm not sure they're that big a deal, especially with action point stabilize, and a cleric (who maybe can cast Stabilize, or better yet Close Wounds and Delay Death, to say nothing of Augment Healing + Cure Critical Wounds). I play a sorc w/ a level of dragon shaman, and I've been finding that more and more the usefulness of that is I have a few more HP and proficiency with med armor/shields (I use only non-somatic spells, so I have not arcane failure). Have they been far more effectual in your area? In terms of breath weapon, I think I much prefer the Dragonfire Adept. Even then you can go the distance with breath weapons every round, but when you're doing roughly half what a normal arcanist would do per round it means the enemies take much longer to kill and everyone else is therefore in danger longer. in Xen'drik, the breath weapon is nice but certainly it is not going to make or break a combat. The auras are very handy. Vigor: This is useful for getting a jump on healing after combat or as a means to keep characters from bleeding out. However, it usually won't save someone who would otherwise have died from a large hit. Energy Resistance: The right choice at the right time can really save a party! Energy Shield: This is the bread and butter aura as far as I'm concerned. 2-10 points of damage shield on every successful hit against a party member really adds up at the low-mid levels. If you happen to have two different dragon shaman in the group this gets insanely helpful. DR/Magic: I think this is the least useful of the main auras in the PHBII. Most things have magic weapons by the time this gets up there in value. Power: A boost to melee damage is great if the tanks have high crit weapons, etc. Senses: This is the other staple aura and what stays on 100% of the time out of combat. Spot, Listen and Initiative bonuses are always useful. Touch of Vitality: Once a dragon shaman has this ability, it is very nice. Assuming the Dragon shaman has devoted some points to charisma (Mine has an 18 charisma at 8th), this can be a substantial amount of healing. My 7th level dragon shaman (1 of barbarian) heals 64 points of damage a day in any combination. At 11th he can then cure various ailments and disabilities with some of those points. So while they aren't overpowered (Even with all they have going for them), I think they are indeed a great fit in any 6-party group. With a level of barbarian and my armor, I can usually fill in as a main tank or a least light infantry while providing support to the group. Harliquinn
Timlagor 07-20-07, 08:36 PM	Dragon Shaman is an outstanding 1 level dip. It's much more balanced as a class beyond that (I gather the Breath can be made potent if you invest heavily in metabreath feats too). There is a lot of 'overpowered'* stuff allowed in XenDrik though and a lot more cards per adventure. This makes XE characters significantly more powerful if the player wants them to be (even more so as levels rise and the power-combos really kick in). All those APs make a lot more difference than the 3 build points but they're fun :) I would like to see some of the more potent stuff banned from XE myself but I'm not really bothered. I am entirely happy with the difficulty of the campaign so far. I've had one bad combat but it was mostly an excersise in proving that the players can mess up badly if they put their minds to it -the combats have also included some really interesting scenarios which i've enjoyed a lot. The various factions have added a lot of 'flavour' too. * higly subjective term but some of it can't really be disputed.
Sieylianna 07-21-07, 10:57 AM	Is it just me or is XE a whole lot easier than LG? I think it's just you. The Xen'drik modules that I've played have been every bit as tough as the LG regional/Core modules. (The core specials and metaregionals are even worse). I've only seen one death in XE in the past six months, but there easily could have been a couple of TPK's if the judges weren't merciful. Are you playing XE with the same players and judges as LG? Too be perfectly honest, I don't know anyone else who has had four LG PCs die in two years. Are you that unlucky? Ed
Randall Montgomery 07-21-07, 11:37 AM	I am entirely happy with the difficulty of the campaign so far. I've had one bad combat but it was mostly an excersise in proving that the players can mess up badly if they put their minds to it -the combats have also included some really interesting scenarios which i've enjoyed a lot. I think this sums it up pretty well for me, too. We had one disasterous mod, which was a combination of an ill-prepared DM, a difficult encounter, and the PCs charging in without thinking things through. Otherwise, we've come through all our mods fairly well (although we've lost out on a fair ammount of XP and EV occassionally due to some various module issues). As someone who plays both XE and LG regularly, I think most of the comments posted here are pretty well spot on. The action points in particular go a very long ways to keeping players alive (when they use them, as my group is FINALLY starting to figure out), and are easily my favorite addition to D&D in recent years.
Puggle Halfwine 07-21-07, 12:00 PM	As a long time LG player and someone who's played a little XE, I have to swing the opposite way and say that XE is far more deadly than LG. In the 200+ modules of LG I've played I've died a grand total of four times. In the six or so XE games I've played, we TPK'd twice and suffered substantial numbers of PC deaths in another.
lseelba 07-21-07, 04:02 PM	I agree for the most part that Xen'drik difficulty is lower than LG difficulty. I am a bit worried about how Xen'drik is going to evolve in the next few months. After the level kick, everyone is going to have a ton of AP's and people will be rolling 2d6 (keep highest) at level 8. PC's that take Action Boost at level 9 will be rolling 2d8. Are action points (and cards) going to become the focus of the game? (FYI, the average action point addition for 2d8 drop lowest is 5.8125. Adding 6 to any d20 roll 8 times a mod at level 9 is VERY powerful.) I'm not complaining here, just curious what people think of the action point mechanic between the next two level bumps.
Zantumal_Waveharp 07-21-07, 06:47 PM	I think this sums it up pretty well for me, too. We had one disasterous mod, which was a combination of an ill-prepared DM, a difficult encounter, and the PCs charging in without thinking things through. Otherwise, we've come through all our mods fairly well (although we've lost out on a fair ammount of XP and EV occassionally due to some various module issues). As someone who plays both XE and LG regularly, I think most of the comments posted here are pretty well spot on. The action points in particular go a very long ways to keeping players alive (when they use them, as my group is FINALLY starting to figure out), and are easily my favorite addition to D&D in recent years. Actually there were two times that we nearly had TPK. And both of those were from the fact that we really had no Front line fighter. But I agree that it was also a DM that was unprepared as well adding to our discomfort. Also with regard to the APs. Most of the guys in our group think using creation cards is cool, so they are using far less APs than they should. (P.S. Hey how's it going Joe?)
Wavester 07-22-07, 06:48 PM	What did you find insulting about his post? Just curious, since I seem to have missed it. I was responding to lordtiberiusfoxx (troll post first class) and not your original post which is no way has anything wrong with it and is a solid point of dicussion. Dave
Evanta 07-23-07, 01:18 AM	I think action points have something to do with the decreased difficulty too. It's much less likely that the PCs fail a critical saving throw when they can't afford to, as well as hit more often (by converting near misses to hits).
TheBlackFlail 07-23-07, 02:12 AM	I was responding to lordtiberiusfoxx (troll post first class) and not your original post which is no way has anything wrong with it and is a solid point of dicussion. Dave Why, when confronted with frustrated criticism do so many (certainly not all) people in the LG power structure scream "TROLL!" (or some such) and refuse to deal with the actual criticisms lodged? It only leads to more bad blood, frustrated criticism and makes a reasoned discussion impossible. At least I haven't encountered any more level draining monsters at APL 2 since year 5... (I.E. I think it's getting better), but I have been blasted with more Lvl+3 sudden maximized whatevers than I can count on one hand, and I think just once I should get a favor that says "After being blasted for the umpteenth billion time by a sudden maximized X, you have learned the ways of sudden maximizing spells..." or somesuch.
smerwin29 07-23-07, 07:27 AM	While I am certainly glad to be placed in the "not-a-jerk" category (it's the nicest thing that's been said about me all year!), I also don't want to turn this into a forum for criticizing LG. LG is a campaign that requires a large number of volunteers. With so many volunteers, you are getting people with many different personalities and motivations. Painting so many people with such a large brush is easy to do, but it really isn't fair to all those people who put in so much time. Yes, there are stories about LG administrators who are "jerks," and there stories about LG players who are "jerks." But those are stories better left mentioned on other forums. I do appreciate the other points brought up here. Action points, especially as managed in the D&D Campaigns, are a great resource that can certain be used to make challenges seem easier than they are. I cannot speak for the other FMs, but I know I have attempted to make my adventures reasonable, but also reasonably challenging for a group of moderately powered PCs. I've written adventures extensively now across several campaigns, both Living and D&D Campaigns, and it is astounding at how much PC power levels differ, increasingly so at higher levels. Even by 4th level, you would be astounded to sit and run an adventure for a relatively weak party and think, "This is such an unfair adventure" and then turn around an hour later an run it for a uber-tweaked party and think, "This is the easiest adventure ever written."
Madfox11 07-23-07, 08:46 AM	Why, when confronted with frustrated criticism do so many (certainly not all) people in the LG power structure scream "TROLL!" (or some such) and refuse to deal with the actual criticisms lodged? It only leads to more bad blood, frustrated criticism and makes a reasoned discussion impossible. There is a difference between mentioning what exactly you don't like about a campaign and just calling a large group of vollunteers jerks and incorrectly quoting rules (in this case: access rules*). We are always open for critism, and we have changed our mind and rules on suggestions from players. * The LG access rules are about as different from Xen'drik that comparing the two is like comparing oranges and apples. LG access is much more open, especially in regards to feats and spells than Xen'drik. As a result LG has to be more careful with what it grants access to. Besides, stuff that is closed because of power is usually closed for NPCs as well. The sudden feats btw are open to PC warmages. At least I haven't encountered any more level draining monsters at APL 2 since year 5... (I.E. I think it's getting better), but I have been blasted with more Lvl+3 sudden maximized whatevers than I can count on one hand, and I think just once I should get a favor that says "After being blasted for the umpteenth billion time by a sudden maximized X, you have learned the ways of sudden maximizing spells..." or somesuch. Taking a look at cores and Splintered Suns stuff I have a feeling you are exaggerating in the extreme. I know of only one adventure were this sudden stuff is taken to a somewhat extreme level in cores (but I admit not knowing all of them). In any event, if you don't like anything in LG post it on those boards, we might surprise you in listening. P.S. Action points have such a big impact on the game that I know enough people who dislike them immensely especially in the amount handed out in Xen'drik. It would be cool if the authors took them more into account. I know I have written a DMs mark with high speed air-chase through Sharn ones that I would never have dared in another setting. You don't want people falling hundreds of feet because they failed that low DC Reflex save when they have make those rolls a couple of times after near collisions and the like. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Marcus Majarra 07-23-07, 09:12 AM	P.S. Action points have such a big impact on the game that I know enough people who dislike them immensely especially in the amount handed out in Xen'drik. Was this as much an issue for Mark of Heroes? Action points were awarded in the same amounts.
Harliquinn 07-23-07, 10:23 AM	I know I have written a DMs mark with high speed air-chase through Sharn ones that I would never have dared in another setting. You don't want people falling hundreds of feet because they failed that low DC Reflex save when they have make those rolls a couple of times after near collisions and the like. One thing to keep in mind, Action Points don't negate a roll of a 1 as an automatic failure for saves or attacks. So even with action points, a roll of one is still a failure.
Lilinthra 07-23-07, 10:45 AM	Except for when it isn't; I can think of at least one XE mod that had a special save where a natural 1 was not an auto-failure.
Harliquinn 07-23-07, 10:54 AM	Except for when it isn't; I can think of at least one XE mod that had a special save where a natural 1 was not an auto-failure. Well the MAAD drops are the only exception I've ever been aware of.
kiddoc 07-23-07, 12:29 PM	Except for when it isn't; I can think of at least one XE mod that had a special save where a natural 1 was not an auto-failure. Killing 5% of players at the start of an adventure just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I do that in the Delve--but tend to try and let my players survive to enjoy the module I poured my heart and soul into. :D
Harliquinn 07-23-07, 01:23 PM	I for one am glad the MAAD's don't auto-fail on a 1 :)
Lilinthra 07-23-07, 03:32 PM	Killing 5% of players at the start of an adventure just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No complaints here. Besides, you get amusing things sometimes... like a scout rolling a natural 20, while the wizard rolled a natural 1 followed by an action point 1 on the respective MAAD saves.
Istaran 07-23-07, 04:58 PM	I will note that I have just had my first XE mod that involved PC deaths. 3 in fact. Death 1: Legitimate PC death in a hard combat following a MAAD. In fact it is likely that he died because I rolled badly on the MAAD save and was forced to spend 2 rounds to get onto my feet and into the fray without eating a too-powerful-to-ignore AoO. Concidering I averaged taking out one of the major enemies each round once I did get up, I think it's fair to guess that two more rounds of me fighting would likely have saved that PC. No complaints here. Deaths 2 & 3: DM misread a trap (I looked it over with him the next day, after he'd reported it) and had it act in a completely different manner than written. As written it might have even been useful as an asset to the PCs. As played it was a death trap that slaughtered us as we reluctantly tried to retreat to more defensible ground (and/or buy time to drink some CLW potions). My only complaint here is with the DM, and perhaps that a more conspicuous note on the matter might have gotten his attention. The DM also misread the notes on the beginning of the encounter so that we were denied prep time we should have had (even though we explicitly asked for it). In the end I escaped at -12 HP (thanks to Rageclaws and Blink Shirt) and the DM was kind enough to leave the down-but-stable characters alive for me to recover afterwards. Someone asked if I play LG w/ the same people I play XE with. The answer is there's some overlap. Several of the people I play XE with are very new to D&D and haven't even gotten to level 4 in LG. The more experience players I game with were commenting to me about their thoughts of how much easier XE is than LG, which is what got me thinking and lead to this thread to begin with. The majority of the experienced players in my area stick to LG exclusively and don't want to even try XE. So I'd say overall I've got a weaker player pool for XE, though not severely so. As for dying four times in LG in two years, the count is actually five: 1) my first char died in heroically trying to distract a big monster from the better combatants because I had the best AC. Obviously my AC wasn't good enough. Also, we were playing up to APL 4 with an APL 3 group. I learned a vital lesson there. It was the first time I had had the option, and didn't know better. 2) my second char died in a fight we had no chance of winning against a bunch of demons. Luckily we were under a contract that gave us a free raise dead afterwards. That was the first time Eddy was at level 6 and died. 3,4) Eddy retired for a while so I could start a new level 1 w/ a friend. Sin the Librarian actually died twice in six months. The second time was a core special in which he was ultimately eaten by an ogre barbarian wielding a spiked chain. 5) Eddy came back, only to face a templated large bronze dragon at APL 6 with advantageous terrain and several prep rounds (that gave him Shield and Mage Armor up, so that our melee monster couldn't touch him). He breathed on us round 1, sending half the party into run-away-mode for the entire combat. I somehow managed to last 3 rounds (as a 6 con arcane caster, wee) of one on one combat w/ the dragon while being forced to take no actions other than running away, while the rest of the party ran and hid. I managed to stabilize, but the dragon coup de gras'd me. Still, I managed to be recovered and brought back. That was the second time Eddy was a level 6 and died. Eddy is now level 6 again.. we'll have to wait and see whether he survives to 7 this time or dies once again, perhaps for good. While Eddy's low HP may make it seem like he's just naturally doomed, he has proven to be my most survivable LG character to date, completely throwing off my expectations. However, his bad design means he will be falling farther behind each level if I keep playing with him until about level 12, at which point he will be a good level 11 character (i.e. still about a level low).
Sieylianna 07-23-07, 05:15 PM	Was this as much an issue for Mark of Heroes? Action points were awarded in the same amounts. Action points and similar mechanics have always been a problem in living campaigns and tournaments (going back to possibilities in Torg). In a home game, your action points have to last you for an entire level, but you are under no such restrictions in XE or MoH. Based on the way other consumables work, people should be getting 1/5 as many. It makes action surge too good as well as pumping up artficiers, who really don't need to be any stronger. Ed
Harliquinn 07-23-07, 06:57 PM	Action points and similar mechanics have always been a problem in living campaigns and tournaments (going back to possibilities in Torg). In a home game, your action points have to last you for an entire level, but you are under no such restrictions in XE or MoH. Based on the way other consumables work, people should be getting 1/5 as many. Ed Well in all honesty, it only takes about 2 modules to gain a level. Therefore, at most you would cut the action points in half.
Evanta 07-23-07, 09:18 PM	Well in all honesty, it only takes about 2 modules to gain a level. Therefore, at most you would cut the action points in half. The base mechanic of action points are fine as it is. It's the RPGA rewards cards taking the place of action points that might be over-powering. Having 3 Dragon's Breath Scholar in your stack for example, basically means that you have +4 to all savings throws in 1 module.
smerwin29 07-23-07, 09:32 PM	Having 3 Dragon's Breath Scholar in your stack for example, basically means that you have +4 to all savings throws in 1 module. That is only against breath weapons.
lseelba 07-23-07, 09:35 PM	The DM also misread the notes on the beginning of the encounter so that we were denied prep time we should have had (even though we explicitly asked for it). In the end I escaped at -12 HP (thanks to Rageclaws and Blink Shirt) and the DM was kind enough to leave the down-but-stable characters alive for me to recover afterwards. Do you mean -2 HP? -12 is generally dead unless you had delay death up, but without anyone to heal you you'd still pretty much die when the spell expires.
lseelba 07-23-07, 09:37 PM	The base mechanic of action points are fine as it is. It's the RPGA rewards cards taking the place of action points that might be over-powering. Having 3 Dragon's Breath Scholar in your stack for example, basically means that you have +4 to all savings throws in 1 module. Why use Dragon's Breath Scholar when there is the superior Natural Survivor card? +5 is nothing to laugh at!
Marcus Majarra 07-24-07, 12:19 AM	Action points and similar mechanics have always been a problem in living campaigns and tournaments (going back to possibilities in Torg). In a home game, your action points have to last you for an entire level, but you are under no such restrictions in XE or MoH. Based on the way other consumables work, people should be getting 1/5 as many. It makes action surge too good as well as pumping up artficiers, who really don't need to be any stronger. Ed Personally, I have no issues against action points, despite your arguments. People who play them into their strengths will not get significantly more powerful and the fact that they can allow characters to perform otherwise impossible actions or to barely escape what would've otherwise been a tragic fate spices up the game for the players. I find that it makes liking our characters easier and the action-driven heroics are a centric part of Eberron games. What I'm curious about is as to how action points demean module quality. While it is obvious that they do make playing easier for the players (from a mechanical point of view), I don't see how this demeans the quality of the module. Are DMs feeling frustrated by players and action points? Is there a difficulty in challenging the players thoroughly?
Evanta 07-24-07, 12:23 AM	Why use Dragon's Breath Scholar when there is the superior Natural Survivor card? +5 is nothing to laugh at! Well, there's the fact that I don't have that card. :( Ya If I had 3 Natural Survivors that's a +5 to all saving throws effectively. @ smerwin29: um, I was not thinking of the direct card effects but rather the fact that you can dump the card to treat it as if you've rolled a 4 on a d6.
Madfox11 07-24-07, 04:24 AM	Personally, I have no issues against action points, despite your arguments. People who play them into their strengths will not get significantly more powerful and the fact that they can allow characters to perform otherwise impossible actions or to barely escape what would've otherwise been a tragic fate spices up the game for the players. I find that it makes liking our characters easier and the action-driven heroics are a centric part of Eberron games. Never said that I didn't like them. I said that I know many that do. With the amount in Xen'drik AND Mark of Heroes though it gets used much more often than just in the save-or-die type of situations, at least by people with some experience in convention gaming. The one thing that I really dislike though is their use in regards to artificers - a properly designed artificer with a lot of action points is a bit too effective in my opinion. What I'm curious about is as to how action points demean module quality. While it is obvious that they do make playing easier for the players (from a mechanical point of view), I don't see how this demeans the quality of the module. Are DMs feeling frustrated by players and action points? Is there a difficulty in challenging the players thoroughly? It all depends on what you want to get out of an adventure. If you want a challenging adventure with dangerous combats than action points can demean a module quality. In all earnest though, I personally think the ease with which our group uses expendable items right now is much more responsible for the easy time we have with combats than action points.
smerwin29 07-24-07, 08:19 AM	It all depends on what you want to get out of an adventure. If you want a challenging adventure with dangerous combats than action points can demean a module quality. In all earnest though, I personally think the ease with which our group uses expendable items right now is much more responsible for the easy time we have with combats than action points. I reject the premise that module quality has anything to do with player expectations. If you wrote an adventure in LG, and several players said it was of low quality because they had an easy time of it, what would you tell them? There is a range of PC power, and I know you are aware that you cannot write adventures that challenge the high end of that range, or you would be wiping out the low end on a regular basis. If you get complaints from people who have tweaked their characters to make them incredibly powerful, what do you tell them? If your enjoyment of adventures is being lessened because they are not challenging to you, I have some suggestions: --Don't use the action points. --Refuse to use combinations that you know are overpowered. --Don't exploit the loopholes in the rules. --Limit your own access to expendable items.
dreamwolf 07-24-07, 09:17 AM	The one thing that I really dislike though is their use in regards to artificers - a properly designed artificer with a lot of action points is a bit too effective in my opinion. I agree. The one thing that makes Bane a +1 weapon ability is that it's so narrowly focused that it's only useful a small part of the time, but when an artificer can pump out an AP for each encounter to bane the fighter's weapon against whatever they're facing it's just too powerful. In a regular campaign, he could only do that a few times per level, leaving many combats without it, but our codex artificer uses it absolutely every time we face a big battle, sometimes two on different weapons.
Harliquinn 07-24-07, 09:39 AM	I think people are forgetting (or perhaps not) that each Xen'drik module comes with usually 3-tiers of difficulty. The DM should at the beginning of an adventure, get a feel for the power levels at the table. This doesn't just have to be level-directed. If you see you have an artificer with 20 action points at the table, you can assume he will be bane'ing all weapons, etc. To make it fun and challenging, there is nothing wrong with adjusting the difficulty to the next level. I would be ready to drop it back down if needed for a future encounter if the characters couldn't handle the higher CR. Just a thought... Harliquinn
Madfox11 07-24-07, 11:39 AM	I reject the premise that module quality has anything to do with player expectations. If you wrote an adventure in LG, and several players said it was of low quality because they had an easy time of it, what would you tell them? There is no easy answer to that question. I would like to know who was their DM, with whom they played and with what party composition. It also depends on the adventure, the blurb and so on. I agree that expectations have no impact on quality, it will have on a feeling of quality. If they expect a battle-intensive adventure, and they get a mystery chances are they get dissapointed and think the adventure stinks. There is a range of PC power, and I know you are aware that you cannot write adventures that challenge the high end of that range, or you would be wiping out the low end on a regular basis. Actually, in Xen'drik you can. Our DM certainly added a lot of opponents to the last BWC adventure we played. If you get complaints from people who have tweaked their characters to make them incredibly powerful, what do you tell them? If your enjoyment of adventures is being lessened because they are not challenging to you, I have some suggestions: --Don't use the action points. --Refuse to use combinations that you know are overpowered. --Don't exploit the loopholes in the rules. --Limit your own access to expendable items. Agreed, but if I suggested I got less enjoyment out of Xen'drik adventures because they are easy, than my appoligies, because that is not the case. First of all, I don't think they are all that easy. Second because the tactician in me really don't mind an easy fight if it is easy due to planning on the players' side. Third, I find the story more important, and if the story makes sense and gives me role-play opportunities, than I am happy ;) I was just discussing why people might think the adventures are easy compared to LG. I agree. The one thing that makes Bane a +1 weapon ability is that it's so narrowly focused that it's only useful a small part of the time, but when an artificer can pump out an AP for each encounter to bane the fighter's weapon against whatever they're facing it's just too powerful. In a regular campaign, he could only do that a few times per level, leaving many combats without it, but our codex artificer uses it absolutely every time we face a big battle, sometimes two on different weapons. And that is just Bane... we are not even talking about other specialized enhancements or armor boosting stuff.
Marcus Majarra 07-24-07, 12:51 PM	If artificers are an issue, you can simply increase the action point cost of infusing as a standard action for infusions with longer casting times. Doubling the cost pretty must sets the availability of this to what you'd expect from a regular game, given that two mods usually result in a level-up. In any case, if combat encounters are an issue with respect to action points (and artificers), perhaps more tactical approaches should be displayed by DMs. If your opponent is suddenly wielding a weapon dangerous to you, it doesn't stand to reason that you'll just stay there and take the beating pointlessly. You're either going to go beyond the weapon's range or prevent its user from wielding it. Monsters and opponents that don't have a death wish should be targetting easier targets when possible.
Istaran 07-24-07, 02:13 PM	Do you mean -2 HP? -12 is generally dead unless you had delay death up, but without anyone to heal you you'd still pretty much die when the spell expires. I'm a totemist mutt, so I use the Rageclaws soulmeld. It allows me to act as though I was neither disabled nor dying when I am below 1 HP, and allows me to go 3 points deeper into the negatives for each essentia invested. So, with 1 of my 2 essentia in that meld, and the other in my Blink Shirt (giving me a 20' dimension door effect at will, barely enough to pop through a wall and out of sight) I was in fact at -12 HP and still functioning. (I will note that Totemist seems to be a highly abusable dip class if you take at least 2 levels. 3 soulmelds and a totem bind can make a world of difference for an otherwise solid melee character.)
Lilinthra 07-25-07, 11:54 AM	I agree. The one thing that makes Bane a +1 weapon ability is that it's so narrowly focused that it's only useful a small part of the time, but when an artificer can pump out an AP for each encounter to bane the fighter's weapon against whatever they're facing it's just too powerful. In a regular campaign, he could only do that a few times per level, leaving many combats without it, but our codex artificer uses it absolutely every time we face a big battle, sometimes two on different weapons. It's a powerful ability to be able to apply on the fly, but there are several trade-offs to consider that reduce the effectiveness. Using an Action Point to speed up an infusion only reduces the casting time to 1 round (like Sleep and Summon Monster # spells), not a standard action. So using Weapon Augmentation in this manner already ties up the artificer for at least one round if not into the next, and there's the risk of disruption. Then, for a non-personal augmentation, you have to consider where the intended recipient is located. Did they stay nearby to receive the infusion? Did they move up to the enemy, and if so, did the artificer stay back to finish casting or move up as well? Those could require a 5 foot step or move action on someone's part, or sub-optimal tactics on the party's part. The 100GP's worth of oil/ointment for the 2nd level infusion (in XE, that is) and knowing the type of bane to apply are minor irritations, but not that significant in balancing factors. So yeah, it's still a powerful ability, but I'm not sure it's that cut and dry. Of course, gathering intel, using social skills, or divinations first can greatly help for preparations. There are a lot more action points per level in XE compared to a regular campaign, but the Rapid Infusion feat helps balance that for a regular campaign. Either way, every AP being spent to speed up an infusion is one less available for saves, attack rolls, stabilizing, etc. (Having said all this, I will admit that I haven't played with many highly-optimized artificers, so I might not have seen enough game-breaking play as the others here.)
Sieylianna 07-25-07, 05:42 PM	(Having said all this, I will admit that I haven't played with many highly-optimized artificers, so I might not have seen enough game-breaking play as the others here.) I regularly play with a warforged artificer with two homonculi. Both are trained to attack with him; one attacks from the flank and the other uses aid another to help his AC. He puts bane against whatever type of creature we're facing on his weapon before entering combat. Ed
Timlagor 07-28-07, 10:09 PM	* The LG access rules are about as different from Xen'drik that comparing the two is like comparing oranges and apples. LG access is much more open, especially in regards to feats and spells than Xen'drik. As a result LG has to be more careful with what it grants access to. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns I strongly disagree with the bit I made bold. It is an opinion that does seem to be shared by the XE rules writers but I simply don't see it. The ESlot system certainly limits the number of things you can have but if something is "broken" then you don't really need anything else. Where combinations of rules items are needed they are still rarely more than two or three items and so easily available to a 7th level XE character. I have no objection to XE letting more more powerful things in ..but people shouldn't kid themselves that something overpowered is ok because a PC can only choose 3 'overpowered combos'. If anything I'd be more concerned about people putting together the 'killer combo' in XE where they can reliably choose their access. People who seem to know what they are talking about reckon an optimised LG character can be about 20% more effective than an "iconic" one ...in XE I reckon you can be about twice as effective as the Fastplays of the same level (certainly judging from the design of the level 4 fastplays ..though I'm optimistic that the level 7 ones will be more impressive ...but then at 7th level most of the more intricate characters are hitting their stride) Things I would Shut in XE if I was making the decisions and wanted to stop PCs overwhelming combats: - Revenant Blade - Ray of Stupidity - Abrupt Jaunt I'm sure there are other things but those are the ones I've tried out ;) ..and I've only got to RB1 so far. **************************************** **************** I can assure you that my Artificer isn't scary because of the number of APs she has. I did manage to get through 6 of them (out of 7) in Lich Queen part 2... not one of those was used to make an Infusion quicker. Metamagic Item (standard action) is the most powerful Infusion imo ...and I have considered Greater Armour Enhancement (a +5 enchantment for 500gp and 10minutes/level) and Spell-Storing Item (very small xp cost to get any spell up to 4th level subject to a potentially hard UMD check). There are a lot of ways for Artificers to be powerful* and removing APs really wouldn't slow them down very much. Action Surge is certainly a nice thought.. but it works for everyone. * With the right setup you can pretty much outperform anyone at their own speciality... I'd dislike them if they weren't so outstandingly cool as an idea :D There are a number of things in the XE rules that make things hard for Artificers. So far I've found the very low number of infusions/day to be the biggest constraint though ...must check if Memento Magicas* work for Artificers. I suspect not: extra 1st level infusions for 1500gp would be pretty sick ...and it's not even that I get all the infusions as known ones because I only really use 3 of them. * pretty sure that's the correct way to pluralise it in English but if you wanted to get clever about it would it be "Memente Magica"?
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 07-29-07, 03:18 AM	Having said all this, I will admit that I haven't played with many highly-optimized artificers, so I might not have seen enough game-breaking play as the others here.) I completely broke my Mark of Heroes Artificer to the point where it almost wasn't fun for the rest of the table. That's the primary reason why I'm not playing one in XenEx. At level 13 he always took 10 for traps which gave him a 44 at doors and had enough wands of Detect Magic for usually every room in a module so the Rogue Replacement Plan was in total effect. He also had a Wand of Summon Monster 1 just to be on the save side if he didn't like a situation (I played the character extrmely paranoid). Spellcraft was a minimum 29 on the roll of a 1. His Staves of Fire and Wands of Lightning Bolt combined with Empower and Energy Admixture feats made even the Warmages look bad (20d6 X 1.5 = over 100 points on average). Wands of Burning hands (CL 3 thanks to Wand Mastery a must for any wand user) helped with swarms, Wand of Magic Missle for pesky ghosts and what not while Scrolls of Haste, Clairvoyance, and Invisability Purge covered for the more general arcanists. Wands of CLW and RLD took care of the party's healing and scrolls of Animate Dead (as long as no Areani were in the party which I only saw one the entire campaign), Speak with Dead, Restoration and Shield of Faith combined with the ability to imbue his armor to become Undead Commanding made up for the lack of a cleric. Tanking could be performed by Grim, his 11HD Iron Defender that could fly due to Improved Homuculus feat or Moses his Giant Constrictor Snake that came from his Rod of the Python (that was a purchase made after Oznah got tried of always being grappled and figured he'd like to grapple things himself the artificer way). Coupled with the Weapon Augentations and tossing a Wall of Force where needed he's infusions caused many judges grief. Once I managed to Bane Evil Outsiders my wife's Halfling Scout's Boomerang against some demon and she had the Boomerang Daze feat which was causing this demon to make DC mid 30's Fort save each round or be dazed. When she told him the damage and asked him to make the fort save the first time he exclaimed, "What are you, some type of Halfling Psion!" And that was without the Improved Schirmish from Complete Scoundel. I regularly play with a warforged artificer with two homonculi. Both are trained to attack with him; one attacks from the flank and the other uses aid another to help his AC. He puts bane against whatever type of creature we're facing on his weapon before entering combat. Ed I wish I could have made multiple Homuculi in MoH - the Improved Homuculus Feat really pays off then.
Timlagor 07-29-07, 12:13 PM	You mean you weren't the "party face" as well? tsk!
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 07-29-07, 04:20 PM	You mean you weren't the "party face" as well? tsk! I guess I left out the Scrolls of Glibness, Tougues, Comp Lang and even Glitterdust that are the Bard's Bread and butter.
Diablo05 07-29-07, 11:03 PM	I completely broke my Mark of Heroes Artificer to the point where it almost wasn't fun for the rest of the table. That's the primary reason why I'm not playing one in XenEx. *gets out a pad and starts taking notes* WoW.... what else can be said...
Timlagor 07-30-07, 06:53 AM	I guess I left out the Scrolls of Glibness, Toungues, Comp Lang and even Glitterdust that are the Bard's Bread and butter. With a respectable base Cha, Circlet of Persuasion (Rod of ???? later) and Skill Item Infusion, you won't be competing with the Bard but you will be good enough for most challenges (I hit +10 at 6th level without a single Rank or Synergy) ...and if you know it's going to be really tough you can start infusing items and then modifying their bonus type with the 4th level Infusions. ...as I say you certainly won't compete with the Bard but it will be 'good enough' for most circumstances ...and most of it can simply be added to the Bard if you have one instead of using it yourself! (+8 out of that +10 is readily transferable -contributing +10 to their check if you assist as well.) ((not that you don't want those scrolls too ..among oh so many others in XE: be sure to rapeexploit the Paladin and Ranger Spell lists for cheaper scrolls :D ...I couldn't quite bring myself to go through the Domains but I don't see any basis for disallowing them. )) EDIT: Oops forgot to mention Divine Insight but perhaps a little self-restraint is in order.
Marcia_S 08-01-07, 08:37 PM	The only deaths at tables I've played or run were two of them in the CoL 1 mods I ran at GenCon last year. There was a barbarian with a great sword that the players really had no business getting that close to. Those that did were usually smacked pretty hard and two died. The players just restarted their characters. Marcia
Garden_State_Gamer 08-06-07, 05:34 PM	Character Death Toll in games I've run: Cabal of Shadows 4: Half Orc Barbarian who charged Tatters in the opening scene. ALWAYS rp through the opening scene. Eyes of the Lich Queen Half Orc Paladin who jumped into a well to hide from Lizardfolk Shamans, only to discover two juvenile dragon siblings that the Lizardfolks worshipped. Eyes of the Lich Queen had some very close calls in it with that group, but then with my other group there were a lot less casualties. Whether it was good dice rolls, better character builds or more cooperative players (Diablo5 knows what I'm talking about), remains the question. In games I've played in: There was a close call in BWC 5 with the plant thingies, but we pulled through. I think the new campaign standards will correct any perceived cake walks that players have encountered thus far.
Istaran 08-06-07, 06:14 PM	Eyes of the Lich Queen is definitely a special case with regards to Xen'drik difficulty, as it is not written by the XE campaign staff. My party had a lot of close calls in that game, and I in particular nearly died from a certain supernatural disease (I managed to fail almost every fort save that entire mod, despite a +9 fort modifier. Oi) I spent a fair amount of both part 1 and part 2 with more damage on me than my base HP, and had more than one occassion where if an opponent didn't drop before their next turn I was pretty much guaranteed to die. I was especially nervous when I started my turn surrounded by 4 enemies who were almost certainly not going to be distracted by anyone else in the party, in negative HP despite being in rage, still standing and fighting due to Rageclaws, with 14 AC and a bad situation tactically that made it hard for other PCs to join the fray.. I think that helped make it up to the GM who has had to watch Grendalyne tear down NPC after NPC in one round a piece, often without bothering to roll damage (I very often do 8d6+40 damage in a round). Overall.. I had an awesome time with Eyes. ^_^
Timlagor 08-07-07, 12:04 PM	Rageclaws?
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 12:10 PM	Rageclaws? It's an Incarnum Soulmeld that when bound I think lets you have the benefits of Diehard.
Istaran 08-07-07, 08:52 PM	Rageclaws? It's a totemist soulmeld that gives better effects than Diehard. When you are disabled or dying you may act as though you were not. You have -no- penalties for being at 0 or less HP. Also, each point of essentia you boost it with allows you to go 3 HP deeper into negatives before you die. For example, Grendalyne can push up to 2 essentia into her Rageclaws, allowing her to be up and fighting without any penalties while her HP total is -15 or more. At -16 HP or lower she is dead. (Though note that this combos nicely with Delay Death).
Mherduwynn 08-07-07, 09:05 PM	I think that helped make it up to the GM who has had to watch Grendalyne tear down NPC after NPC in one round a piece, often without bothering to roll damage (I very often do 8d6+40 damage in a round). Overall.. I had an awesome time with Eyes. ^_^ Heh... And people wonder why we sometimes have to make combats in our scenarios really difficult. :) -August
Evanta 08-07-07, 09:22 PM	Eyes of the Lich Queen is definitely a special case with regards to Xen'drik difficulty, as it is not written by the XE campaign staff. My party had a lot of close calls in that game, and I in particular nearly died from a certain supernatural disease (I managed to fail almost every fort save that entire mod, despite a +9 fort modifier. Oi) I spent a fair amount of both part 1 and part 2 with more damage on me than my base HP, and had more than one occassion where if an opponent didn't drop before their next turn I was pretty much guaranteed to die. I was especially nervous when I started my turn surrounded by 4 enemies who were almost certainly not going to be distracted by anyone else in the party, in negative HP despite being in rage, still standing and fighting due to Rageclaws, with 14 AC and a bad situation tactically that made it hard for other PCs to join the fray.. I think that helped make it up to the GM who has had to watch Grendalyne tear down NPC after NPC in one round a piece, often without bothering to roll damage (I very often do 8d6+40 damage in a round). Overall.. I had an awesome time with Eyes. ^_^ Hmmm. I had an completely reversed experience to yours. My party basically creamed Queen Part I and II, however in Expedition 3 we nearly got creamed instead.
JJeff 08-07-07, 10:57 PM	Hmmm. I had an completely reversed experience to yours. My party basically creamed Queen Part I and II, however in Expedition 3 we nearly got creamed instead. My dear Evanta... you have to answer a simple question: Who ran Eyes for you and who ran any other module for you... sometimes it's the people that run that matters
Istaran 08-08-07, 01:33 PM	Heh... And people wonder why we sometimes have to make combats in our scenarios really difficult. :) -August I was under the impression BWC characters should be expected to excell in combat. Amusingly, my parties struggle more in Crimson Codex combats, and those are generally against somewhat easier opponents. Serpents and Marks men are obviously held to different standards, as well they should be.
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 01:43 PM	Heh... And people wonder why we sometimes have to make combats in our scenarios really difficult. :) -August I think if it were made more clear that you can use higher level difficulty not only because of levels but also because of how well your group is doing, that should take care of it. I think that most adventures have been written with at least 3 scaling difficulties. I know in the past I have upped the difficulty to the next level with a full table of 'optimized' characters and it's still fun and challenging.
Istaran 08-08-07, 01:54 PM	I have on occassion ignored the down-scaling when I was confident the party could handle it. I think the new XECS makes it reasonably clear that such things are allowed.