Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-23-07, 10:39 AM	So, I was thinking about Epic Level and Wizards; and I recognized that every time a Wizard levels, they get to scribe two new spells, and these spells can be of any level they can cast spells at. Furthermore, a Wizard could well take the "Improved Spell Capacity" Epic Feat AND create 10th level spells for these new spells slots. Is ths correct? Or have I, in my sleep deprived state, missed some kind of nerf that stops these things from existing?
Alias 09-23-07, 11:16 AM	Is ths correct? Or have I, in my sleep deprived state, missed some kind of nerf that stops these things from existing? You could... I did it. It's just that the epic spell system, for some reason, went to a skill-based model instead of continuing the level-based one. If you're interested in making level-based epic spells, check this (http://shtar.pbwiki.com/f/LSC.zip) out.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-23-07, 12:02 PM	Nice. And here I was thinking that I was the only one who wanted the slot system to continue; and then recognizing that NOTHING STOPS IT FROM CONTINUING:) . Although I like the freedom of Designer Magic, the Epic system never made too much sense to me. Too many logical errors, like buying a +30 spellcraft item to cast a +100 Spellcraft spell as a buff to cast Masterspell. Indeed, I've found scattered sources of 10th level spells; and part of the thinking was that many of the nastiest 8th and 9th level spells could be shifted upwards, in addition to doing large scale or intense effects to single targets.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-23-07, 12:22 PM	First of all, thanks for sharing. :) Second, I'd proposed a few more ideas for 10th level+ Spells: Polymorph Any Object (8th -> 10th) Warp Gravity (Mod of Reverse Gravity--you can go zero G, double G, and objective G in a select area.; there would be a more limited Control Gravity as a 9th level Spell) Time Stop (9th->10th) Shades(9th->10th) Upgraded Versions of the following: Dispel Magic Summoning Spells Planar Ally Dominate Person Heal Create Undead Divinations/Divination Denial Mass effects of lower level spells And a few new Ideas: -Resurrection against the will of the creature. -Planar Conduits to suck the power of other planes and bring its effects to your advantage. -Temporarily gaining DR 0 as a Buff. -Planebouncing; you can jump planes once per round as a free action. And I have a few ideas for new subdisciplines. -Biomancy; the creation of artificial life and the next step in mastery of the powers of Necromancy. -Archomancy; subverting the laws of Physics to ones own advantage. -Xenomancy; the useful refinement of the far realm -Chronomancy; The mastery of Time. I know it seems a lot to spring; but I'd love to hear feedback on these ideas.
Sagetim 09-23-07, 12:43 PM	pretty sure the 2e netheril thing is free for download on the wizards site. It has some 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells. All of which were whiped from existence because Mystra said 'oh hell no, I'm not going to let wizards screw up magic again.' Note: Karsus' spell to steal the power of a deity was a 12th level spell. The first and only one in fact.
rob_douglas 09-23-07, 12:55 PM	I don't believe the restriction against the existence of 10th level spells is explicit anywhere except in Forgotten Realms, where they note that there used to exist higher level spells until Karsus cast the only ever 13th level spell and made a mess of things (Karsus' Avatar - stole divinity from the god of magic, briefly....) The reason they didn't go that way was that they really didn't feel like they could create and publish the spells that each campaign would find useful. And it would not scale infinitely. They really thought they wanted to give those that play epic levels the ability to design their own spells, and use some guidelines for doing so. However, I don't think they really understood how easily the skill based system could be abused at Epic levels. Not initially at least. There used to be a feat in 3.0 Defender's of the Faith that granted Mass to a spell. I believe it was +4 levels. So you could use that in designing Mass spells - including Mass Time Stop (where you should first design a Time Stop that affects someone else as a buff - Maybe for +4 levels as well, so 17th for Mass Time Stop). You will also want to be able to freely add other metamagics - to increase range and area of effect beyond the limits of merely doubling. Maybe a feat called "Stack Metamagic" that lets you use the same feat more than once - as was allowed in 3.0. Another idea for your spells is to include higher and higher level Wishes - allowing you to mimic lower level spells with that higher level slot. It is a lot of work, but if you have all those ideas, you can even use the epic spell system to design and compare them - the higher the DC, the higher the level the spell should be, in general. Good luck. ROB
Sagetim 09-23-07, 05:44 PM	I don't believe the restriction against the existence of 10th level spells is explicit anywhere except in Forgotten Realms, where they note that there used to exist higher level spells until Karsus cast the only ever 13th level spell and made a mess of things (Karsus' Avatar - stole divinity from the god of magic, briefly....) The reason they didn't go that way was that they really didn't feel like they could create and publish the spells that each campaign would find useful. And it would not scale infinitely. They really thought they wanted to give those that play epic levels the ability to design their own spells, and use some guidelines for doing so. However, I don't think they really understood how easily the skill based system could be abused at Epic levels. Not initially at least. There used to be a feat in 3.0 Defender's of the Faith that granted Mass to a spell. I believe it was +4 levels. So you could use that in designing Mass spells - including Mass Time Stop (where you should first design a Time Stop that affects someone else as a buff - Maybe for +4 levels as well, so 17th for Mass Time Stop). You will also want to be able to freely add other metamagics - to increase range and area of effect beyond the limits of merely doubling. Maybe a feat called "Stack Metamagic" that lets you use the same feat more than once - as was allowed in 3.0. Another idea for your spells is to include higher and higher level Wishes - allowing you to mimic lower level spells with that higher level slot. It is a lot of work, but if you have all those ideas, you can even use the epic spell system to design and compare them - the higher the DC, the higher the level the spell should be, in general. Good luck. ROB 13th? I thought it was 12...but actually in the 2e Netheril thing I'm pretty sure it said as part of the fluff 'and from that day forth mystra banned the creation of any spells higher than level 9 so that this wouldn't happen again'. Anywho, good luck on making higher level spells.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-23-07, 05:57 PM	Well, In that case, I'm going to simply expand the spell system; I'm thinking of requiring 4 levels between 9th and every four levels afterward--this seems to be RAW (Otherwise, we'd have 10th level spells at 19th level) I think that with a lot of creativity, the 21st-40th level gap could be closed. While 21st level is seen as 'Epic', I believe adapting the system so that it covers ALL DMG monsters, the weakest deities (besides Imhotep, C'mon--he's not even Epic) While Epic Magic is an interesting 'field research method' I must admit to disliking much of the consequences of it, and I've got more than a Few problems with Epic in general (Fighters with Half BAB? 20->21 is awesome but 21->22 is weaksauce? Lame. And melee classes are worthless??) I know its a lot, but I'm out to get it working sooner or later, at least, enough of it that I can use it...
BillTheManiac 09-23-07, 08:22 PM	Well, In that case, I'm going to simply expand the spell system; I'm thinking of requiring 4 levels between 9th and every four levels afterward--this seems to be RAW (Otherwise, we'd have 10th level spells at 19th level) I think that with a lot of creativity, the 21st-40th level gap could be closed. While 21st level is seen as 'Epic', I believe adapting the system so that it covers ALL DMG monsters, the weakest deities (besides Imhotep, C'mon--he's not even Epic) While Epic Magic is an interesting 'field research method' I must admit to disliking much of the consequences of it, and I've got more than a Few problems with Epic in general (Fighters with Half BAB? 20->21 is awesome but 21->22 is weaksauce? Lame. And melee classes are worthless??) I know its a lot, but I'm out to get it working sooner or later, at least, enough of it that I can use it... The melee classes in "epic duels" seem pretty awesome for me-Even if you just did a perfect two weapon fighting full attack with a +1 vorpal sword you have a 34% chance of killing a monster in a single round.
Sagetim 09-23-07, 09:26 PM	The melee classes in "epic duels" seem pretty awesome for me-Even if you just did a perfect two weapon fighting full attack with a +1 vorpal sword you have a 34% chance of killing a monster in a single round. Throw that onto a keen rapier and add in improved critical (rapier) and you've got one scary ass guy there. except against undead...and monkies. and undead monkey liches. And the odd construct. by the same token, you could go with a +1 disruption mace and perfect two weapon fighting and cause up to 8 dc 14 will saves or die against undead. even a lich has to roll a 1 from time to time...
Devil Gnasher 09-23-07, 09:33 PM	And I have a few ideas for new subdisciplines. -Biomancy; the creation of artificial life and the next step in mastery of the powers of Necromancy. Thank you good sir or madam. Just thank you for letting me know that their are a few non-Evil necromancer fans on these forums.
Sagetim 09-24-07, 12:48 AM	Thank you good sir or madam. Just thank you for letting me know that their are a few non-Evil necromancer fans on these forums. I don't think my DM would allow me to play a non evil necro...
Devil Gnasher 09-24-07, 01:31 AM	I don't think my DM would allow me to play a non evil necro... Why not? I see nothing inherently evil about necromancy or necromancers.
BillTheManiac 09-24-07, 07:41 AM	Throw that onto a keen rapier and add in improved critical (rapier) and you've got one scary ass guy there. except against undead...and monkies. and undead monkey liches. And the odd construct. by the same token, you could go with a +1 disruption mace and perfect two weapon fighting and cause up to 8 dc 14 will saves or die against undead. even a lich has to roll a 1 from time to time... You need to hit for the mace, though, so give it a big plus to get a really high AB.
Alias 09-24-07, 11:04 AM	Indeed, I've found scattered sources of 10th level spells; and part of the thinking was that many of the nastiest 8th and 9th level spells could be shifted upwards, in addition to doing large scale or intense effects to single targets. Yeah... one of the latest projects I've thought of doing, if I can find the motivation to actually DO it, is to revise the spells - fix a few things here and there, like antimagic field and disjunction, and spread them out over 10 levels instead of 9 (disregarding 0-level spells). You would, obviously, get L10 spells at 19, and then epic spells (11+) would kick in at 21 and every 3 levels thereafter. Second, I'd proposed a few more ideas for 10th level+ Spells: Polymorph Any Object (8th -> 10th) Warp Gravity (Mod of Reverse Gravity--you can go zero G, double G, and objective G in a select area.; there would be a more limited Control Gravity as a 9th level Spell) Time Stop (9th->10th) Shades(9th->10th) Not sure that any of those really need to be bumped up, except maybe time stop. Warp gravity is interesting; we have a spell called gravity sink that creates a pinhole gravity vortex - it exerts a pull out to 100 feet (IIRC) and has varying Strength checks to avoid being sucked in, depending how far away you are. And a few new Ideas: Those are kind of cool. There used to be a feat in 3.0 Defender's of the Faith that granted Mass to a spell. I believe it was +4 levels. So you could use that in designing Mass spells - including Mass Time Stop (where you should first design a Time Stop that affects someone else as a buff - Maybe for +4 levels as well, so 17th for Mass Time Stop). +4 for a mass version is standard - they just made it into a feat. :) You will also want to be able to freely add other metamagics - to increase range and area of effect beyond the limits of merely doubling. Maybe a feat called "Stack Metamagic" that lets you use the same feat more than once - as was allowed in 3.0. UK"s Automatic Metamagic Freedom - lets you stack metamagic feats. I just tossed the rule out for spell design, though - you can't create a true "epic spell" unless you can stack feats. Well, In that case, I'm going to simply expand the spell system; I'm thinking of requiring 4 levels between 9th and every four levels afterward--this seems to be RAW (Otherwise, we'd have 10th level spells at 19th level) The only reason we don't have 10th level spells is that we've always had 9th as the max. 4E is finally breaking out of the mold, but 3E failed to kill that particular cow. And like I said above, it should be every 3 levels, not 4 - jump from 19 to 21 for L11, then 24, 27, 30, etc. I know its a lot, but I'm out to get it working sooner or later, at least, enough of it that I can use it... You should really check out Upper Krust's stuff. (www.immortalshandbook.com) I'm not a fanboy or anything, but he's done a lot of work and made a really cohesive, workable epic system that scales infinitely and can be used at any level of play, from mortal to ubergod.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-24-07, 05:41 PM	Well, for those of Us who never got into 2nd Ed and basically started with 3.0; It doesn't seem like a very sacred cow (with the whole 10th level thing referred to, an Netheril, etc) I go with the 4 Level system because Magic is getting extremely powerful by this point. Each and every one of the 10th level spells is going to be about as powerful as Wish. That's seriously powerful. 3 is definitely better than 2, but we must recall the basic premise of Leveling: Each level is supposed to make you about 40% stronger than the previous level. Now, getting spells are are WAY AWESOME is might be a 170% increase in power (Three Levels) or it might be a 300% increase in power. Now, to explain why these broken spells need to moved to a power level more appropriate to their power: PaO is more broken then Shapechange (Which now only includes (Ex) as opposed to including (Su) abilities.). Lets consider a few basic cases: Human->Leshay (ELH): +5 Same Kingdom, +2 Same Class, +2 Same Size. Now someone just added a +22 racial modifer to their Int! And, of course, they can draw weapons out of their body-- +10 weapons, and a bunch of AC. Colossal Giant Spider -> Devastation Spider (Permanent). You just gave your spider DC 94 poison, and +40 Nat. Armor. This is unreal. PaO as a Buff offers game-winning abilties when mixed with Epic. This is a good case for removing the spell entirely. Instead, I'd try to throw in HD requirements, CR requirements and try to hobble the spell as much as I could and THEN put it at epic level. Reverse Gravity is a 'win' spell through the sheer amount of control you are going to get with it. Even people who save against it are effectively pinned--having grabbed something that's outside the effect. And you're going to follow up by dropping a Wall of Iron on them, or having them fall through a prismatic wall, or other abusive effect. It's just too good. Shades giving you any 8th or lower spell at 80% effectiveness @9th level spells is busted. Mostly, I'm concerned about that 80% effectiveness. And the fact that if you go somewhere with the shadow descriptor, you are fielding OVER 100% with the spell--that is scary. I might settle for dropping the percentages a bit.
Alias 09-25-07, 11:30 AM	seriously powerful. 3 is definitely better than 2, but we must recall the basic premise of Leveling: Each level is supposed to make you about 40% stronger than the previous level. 40%?? :shocked: Where are you getting this from? Since you asked, I added the proofs as to why it should be 3 levels to the zip file I linked earlier. PaO is more broken then Shapechange (Which now only includes (Ex) as opposed to including (Su) abilities.). Lets consider a few basic cases: There's a simple way to fix that - eliminate creatures as targets. It's polymorph any OBJECT, not polymorph anyTHING. I would also severely limit transforming objects into creatures - you'd have to have the same kingdom in order to do so. For example, if you want to make, say, a manticore, you have to have flesh from a living creature. Undead? A chunk of meat from an undead. Plant? A piece of wood, leaves, etc. Construct is the only one I'd rule could be created from random raw materials, since that spell's used in their creation anyway. Shapechange, I'd go with CR instead of HD. HD is NOT a good estimation of a creature's power. Reverse Gravity is a 'win' spell through the sheer amount of control you are going to get with it. Even people who save against it are effectively pinned--having grabbed something that's outside the effect. And you're going to follow up by dropping a Wall of Iron on them, or having them fall through a prismatic wall, or other abusive effect. It's just too good. I suppose you could cast the wall of iron in a reverse gravity field, but that would only work if you've got the victims pinned against the ceiling or some overhead obstruction. Prismatic wall specifically states that it's vertical - you can't make people "fall" through it. These are really corner cases anyway - any DM worth the name would look at the player and say "No!" Shades giving you any 8th or lower spell at 80% effectiveness @9th level spells is busted. Mostly, I'm concerned about that 80% effectiveness. And the fact that if you go somewhere with the shadow descriptor, you are fielding OVER 100% with the spell--that is scary. I might settle for dropping the percentages a bit. Yeah... I'm not sure how they went from 20% (shadow evocation/conjuration) to 60% (greater xxx) to 80% (shades). Nor do I see how they came up with the idea that you can mimic spells only one level lower - wish limits you to spells two levels lower, and globe of invulnerability blocks spells two levels lower (minor globe doesn't follow this rule, but that's a whole other discussion). If you fixed both of those (change the progression to 20/40/60, and limit the spells that can be mimicked to two levels below), then shades (and the greater xxx spells) is fine. (Edit: After looking over these spells again, shades should be 10th level. "Greater xxx" is always +3 levels over the normal version, and since shadow conjuration is 7th... A 10th level spell that allows you to mimic any conjuration up to L8 at 60% efficiency is about normal, I think.)
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-25-07, 04:38 PM	40%?? :shocked: Where are you getting this from? Since you asked, I added the proofs as to why it should be 3 levels to the zip file I linked earlier. Easy does it; I may not have stated this clearly. Every time your character Levels up, he should 40% stronger and more capable then before level up. The proof is the CR system itself: if you have two creatures, the CR increases by two. So, increasing your level by two should double your power. The Square root of 2 is about 1.41; hence 40% (It should be 41%, if we are being technical) The Problem with high level spells is that they represent more than a 170% increase in power; they really do represent a 300% increase in power. Yes, that's huge, but its fair (not that we couldn't restructure the system to make the spells increase in smaller steps) ---------------------------------------------------------- PaO fix: It's a good start, but a couple of things are missing. First, the permanent change is also removed: I don't care if it goes up to years/level, I'm not have one of these things be undispelable. Second, taking a chunk of necrotic flesh and producing an Atropal for even just a minute is still abusive. If PaO is seriously supposed to be a non-epic spell, it would be a always temporary, non-monetary object to object spell. Otherwise, I believe I have correctly ID'd it as Epic. And even if I did make it Epic, I'd still lock in some kind of power limit into the spell. I suppose you could cast the wall of iron in a reverse gravity field, but that would only work if you've got the victims pinned against the ceiling or some overhead obstruction. Prismatic wall specifically states that it's vertical - you can't make people "fall" through it. These are really corner cases anyway - any DM worth the name would look at the player and say "No!" And I'm trying to do that now. Reverse Gravity, against Non-Casters, assures their uselessness. And yes, you can make someone fall through a prismatic wall--all you need is a gust of wind against someone with no means to stop their propulsion. You can blow someone into a PW if they've got no way to stop it. And, you can use the massive item crush with Reverse Gravity--If you put a 20 ton Loose slab in the ground and RG the Party while they are walking on it, they are done--so says the 100d6. RG is a vicious combo-spell as written; It has to be brought under control.
Alias 09-26-07, 12:40 PM	Easy does it; I may not have stated this clearly. Every time your character Levels up, he should 40% stronger and more capable then before level up. I understood that part. 40% is a huge jump in power, though - it means a L5 is roughly 5 times more powerful than a L1. Or, if we go to the other end of the spectrum, a L20 is 80 times more powerful than a L15. Which, I think we can agree, is patently absurd. The proof is the CR system itself: if you have two creatures, the CR increases by two. No offense, but Wizards' CR system sucks, and you're confusing CR and EL. Adding a second creature doesn't increase the CR of either of them, unless they're sybomiotic things that have some kind of aura effect that buffs up every other creature of the same type nearby (cool idea for an epic beastie, BTW...). It does, however, increase the EL by 2, which grants more XP for the encounter. I'd refer you to UK's CR system, but his bits on EL are a bit hard to understand - I'm going to ask him about it later. It's a good start, but a couple of things are missing. First, the permanent change is also removed: I don't care if it goes up to years/level, I'm not have one of these things be undispelable. Second, taking a chunk of necrotic flesh and producing an Atropal for even just a minute is still abusive. If PaO is seriously supposed to be a non-epic spell, it would be a always temporary, non-monetary object to object spell. Otherwise, I believe I have correctly ID'd it as Epic. And even if I did make it Epic, I'd still lock in some kind of power limit into the spell. I never mentioned getting rid of the permanent duration - if you're turning one object into another, it would still be permanent. Your point about the atropal is a good one, though - I was just tossing that out, working off the top of my head; limiting the spell to objects only is a good way to go on this. And, you can use the massive item crush with Reverse Gravity--If you put a 20 ton Loose slab in the ground and RG the Party while they are walking on it, they are done--so says the 100d6. RG is a vicious combo-spell as written; It has to be brought under control. Weight limit? Although I've never heard of anyone using RG in this manner before - usually I see it used in traps. This might be a corner case.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-26-07, 02:04 PM	Erm; the 15th to 20th deal is a math error (Gain of 5 levels, increase in power of 437%, which is much more reasonable. Although, yes, this amount of power is crazy) I'd be glad to hear a different perspective on CR; because I believe I've gotten the math right (If there's a problem here, it might because CR is flawed) @PaO: The problem with turning one item into another permanently is the 'value adding' effect this would have. PaO's restrictions on creating precious materials is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of using magic to make money. Consider the consequences of selling a permanent Castle, for example. With a Size limit of 100 cubic feet/level, and enough math to ignore the hollow spaces between walls, you could EASILY make crazy things with this spells. Someone else has suggested things like using PaO to turn the air into magma. There's nothing that says they can't do this, even though this is replicating a 9th level spell (Transmute rock to magma). @RG: Yes, I'm afraid that too many corner cases essentially require some kind of systemic fix. And while it would be cool to pretend that the PCs will never figure this kind of stuff out, too many corner cases necessitate. And a few other spells should get the Epic Treatment: Apocalypse from the Sky (9th ->12th), and doesn't need the artifact as a component (Darn, that's a cheap way to get rid of artifacts!) Spread of Savagery (8th -> 10th), it's a mass compulsion spell, so its got to be higher level than 8th level (We are talking about 100s of feet here) Gate Loses its 2xHD companion effect (This totally destroys Summoning Monsters!!); I might leave it at 9th level without the monsters. There are a few other spells to try out as well. [12th]Time Stop Field (Basically the reverse of Time Stop, an area gets locked down for 1d4 rounds) [10th]True Domination (From the 3.0 Psionic Handbook, an hours long dominate effect) [12th]Thrall (From 3.0 Psionic Handbook But Xp cost is only 500) [11th] Suredeath (Save or Die that attempts to dispel any means to prevent your death) [11th] Preservation (As long as your Body is intact [not at -100% HP], you remain alive and can fight on.) More food for thought...
Alias 09-27-07, 11:56 AM	Erm; the 15th to 20th deal is a math error (Gain of 5 levels, increase in power of 437%, which is much more reasonable. Although, yes, this amount of power is crazy) I started with 15 and multiplied by 1.4 five times. But either way, it's insane. I'd be glad to hear a different perspective on CR; because I believe I've gotten the math right (If there's a problem here, it might because CR is flawed) UKs CR system (http://shtar.pbwiki.com/f/v5.zip). Learn it, live it, love it. @PaO: The problem with turning one item into another permanently is the 'value adding' effect this would have. PaO's restrictions on creating precious materials is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of using magic to make money. Consider the consequences of selling a permanent Castle, for example. With a Size limit of 100 cubic feet/level, and enough math to ignore the hollow spaces between walls, you could EASILY make crazy things with this spells. Well... first off, there's nothing that says ALL changes have to be permanent. Precious metals/gems, for instance, would definitely have a time duration, a la fool's gold (a spell from 2E). Second, 100 cu. ft./level is not that much - a 10-ft. cube of stone is 1,000 cu. ft. You're not going to make a castle with this spell - the best you can manage at 20th level is a large house, because the "empty space" should be counted as part of the object being created. Someone else has suggested things like using PaO to turn the air into magma. There's nothing that says they can't do this, even though this is replicating a 9th level spell (Transmute rock to magma). Last time I checked, air is not rock. Air is not even an "object" in the strictest sense of the word, and therefore you should smack whoever suggested that. @RG: Yes, I'm afraid that too many corner cases essentially require some kind of systemic fix. And while it would be cool to pretend that the PCs will never figure this kind of stuff out, too many corner cases necessitate. One thing I've learned as a designer - you can't cover every single eventuality. You just have to plan for the obvious ones, close any loopholes you find, and trust the DM to rule on any other craziness players think up. Apocalypse from the Sky (9th ->12th), and doesn't need the artifact as a component (Darn, that's a cheap way to get rid of artifacts!) That spell's vaguely familiar, but I don't know what it's from (one of Monte Cook's books, isn't it?). But yeah, having an artifact as a MC is silly. Spread of Savagery (8th -> 10th), it's a mass compulsion spell, so its got to be higher level than 8th level (We are talking about 100s of feet here) Don't know that one either, so I can't comment. Gate Loses its 2xHD companion effect (This totally destroys Summoning Monsters!!); I might leave it at 9th level without the monsters. Yeah, that's a pretty common fix - make it a planar teleport spell, ditch the summon effect, and leave it at 9th. [12th]Time Stop Field (Basically the reverse of Time Stop, an area gets locked down for 1d4 rounds) 13th - you're widening a time stop. [10th]True Domination (From the 3.0 Psionic Handbook, an hours long dominate effect) Sounds about right, but what's the original duration? [11th] Suredeath (Save or Die that attempts to dispel any means to prevent your death) As in things like death ward? Eh - a simple targetted dispel will take care of that. [11th] Preservation (As long as your Body is intact [not at -100% HP], you remain alive and can fight on.) Wow... that has potential for abuse, unless it can be dispelled, and/or death spells get around it.