+2 Triple Throw Light Hammer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+2 Triple Throw Light Hammer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DoveArrow
02-25-08, 06:13 PM I'm having a hard time understanding how crafting epic magical weapons works, so I thought I'd ask the experts.

First, is a +2 triple throw light hammer, a legitimate, magical weapon? In other words, can you create one by the RAW, or does the weapon need to be at least +6 in order to have the triple-throw feature?

Second, if a +2 triple throw light hammer is a legitimate, magical weapon, by the RAW, is it considered an epic weapon? After all, it requires the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat to create a weapon with this feature, so I'm wondering if that's what qualifies it as an epic weapon, or if it has to have a +6 enhancement bonus?

The reason that I'm asking is because a lot of epic level monsters have damage reduction/epic, and so I want to give my party of 22nd level adventures a couple of epic weapons. However, I don't want to give them something with a +6 bonus, because I think that's a little extreme (maybe I'm wrong, but I think it seems extreme).

In any event, if you have an answer to my question, let me know. Thanks.
PrinceOfTheVoid
02-25-08, 06:34 PM DR X/Epic is only penetrable by weapons of a base enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. That bonus does not include the +Modifier of any additional enchantments of the weapon such as triple throwing.
Silvercrys
02-25-08, 06:48 PM What PrinceOfTheVoid said. In order to bypass DR/Epic, the weapon must have a base enhancement of +6. Requiring the Epic Craft Magic Armors and Armor feat is not enough, nor is a +5 Flaming Greatsword (Or a +2 Triple Throw Light Hammer). Otherwise Epic DR would be easily bypassed by level 20.

(If you're intentionally not following the Wealth By Level charts in the DM's Guide and the Epic Level Handbook, you can disregard this section.)

If your players don't at least have one weapon each with a total enhancement of +6 (Such as +3 Keen Flame Burst or similar), I suggest taking a good look at what equipment they do have. They're probably far behind the Wealth by Level guidelines.
PrinceOfTheVoid
02-25-08, 07:16 PM Honestly though, I'd rather have a +5 Speed Keen Ghost Touch Greatsword than a +6 Greatsword. (Especially for 1/3 of the price) Epic Item prices are just stupid sometimes, and level 21 is one of them. Most Damage Reductions aren't really high enough anyways to warrant a +6 weapon at 21st level.

Is that even possible with wealth by level? 720,000 gp sounds like a lot, but I don't have the tables on hand. Of course, I haven't played anything under 50th level in over a year now, so my early-epic sensibilities might be a little off.
DoveArrow
02-26-08, 02:06 AM If your players don't at least have one weapon each with a total enhancement of +6 (Such as +3 Keen Flame Burst or similar), I suggest taking a good look at what equipment they do have. They're probably far behind the Wealth by Level guidelines.

My players are right about where they're supposed to be in terms of wealth-by-level guidelines. However, taking a look at the wealth-by-level guidelines, I don't think any of them will be seeing an epic weapon for a long time. Seriously, take a look at the at the tables in the DMG. A 21st level character should have an equipment value of 975,000 gp. A +6 anything costs 720,300 and some change. That's more than two-thirds of the character's equipment value. Yet, a mu spore, which is a CR 21, has DR 10/epic. It just seems to me that no 21st level character should have the resources to get through a mu spore's damage reduction unless the DM decides to give them a weapon that they shouldn't have at their level.

Of course, that might be the point. The mu spore's damage reduction might be just the thing that allows it to survive long enough to provide a serious challenge to low-level epic PCs (there's an oxymoron for you). I haven't run an epic campaign before, so I'm really not sure if that's the case. That's why I was thinking about giving the PCs at least one epic weapon, so that if it turns out that epic damage reduction is just too much of a challenge, then at least one character can deal damage to epic monsters. Then later, if I need to, I can seed the game with more epic weapons. If I don't need to, then I won't. My only concern is that I don't want the party to have a weapon that gives them a +6 bonus to hit. It just seems a little too high. I also don't want to give them something as bland as a +6 weapon. I just don't think it has quite the flash that a +2 thundering triple-throw light hammer has. If I'm going to give them an epic weapon, I want it to have some pizazz.

Anyway, that's why I was asking. I wanted to know if a +2 thundering triple-throw light hammer could penetrate DR, so that if it couldn't, I could try adding in something else that does.
Krispieman
02-26-08, 06:54 AM Optionally, you could provide them with a +4 Bane Weapon of the appropriate type.

Not everyone agrees that this will penetrate Epic DR, but if it works for you, who cares what the rest of us think?

As a side note, Epic weapons, indeed many of the other epic items as well, are not readily available before level 30 if you stick to the wealth by level guidelines. How you handle epic items is 100% up to you. My personal approach is that their availability is limited to 2 options: finding them or creating them. There is no buying (nor selling for that matter) them. No city, including Sigil and Union, has enough wealth to support epic items. With the possible exception of items that cost over 200.000gp and therefor require the appropriate craft epic feat.

K-man :cool:
PrinceOfTheVoid
02-26-08, 08:42 AM So, you don't allow them +5 weapons either? Because, like I said, its eaisly within guidelins or a L21 to have a +5 Keen Speed Ghost Touch Great Sword, which is a hell of a lt better and cheaper than a +6 Greatsword.

I mean the difference between +5 and +6 is only 1 damage (5 if you're a L10 frenzied berserker) and 1 to hit, along with the ability to go through epic damage reduction for 500,000 gp.
DoveArrow
02-26-08, 01:20 PM So, you don't allow them +5 weapons either? Because, like I said, its eaisly within guidelins or a L21 to have a +5 Keen Speed Ghost Touch Great Sword, which is a hell of a lt better and cheaper than a +6 Greatsword.

I mean the difference between +5 and +6 is only 1 damage (5 if you're a L10 frenzied berserker) and 1 to hit, along with the ability to go through epic damage reduction for 500,000 gp.

I don't really want to get into a debate about whether or not a +6 weapon is too powerful, or if it's more or less powerful than a +5 weapon of broken. The main reason for this is because I've never run an epic campaign before, so I honestly couldn't give an informed response. So taking the conversation in a different direction, do you think it's necessary for the party to have epic weapons at 21st, 22nd, and 23rd level? If so, how many do you think the party should have? Is one enough, should it be just a couple, or should the whole party have +6 longswords?
rob_douglas
02-26-08, 01:43 PM Defintely not, I think you hit it right on the head with your previous post DoveArrow - the DR Epic that low Cr creatures have is what keeps them alive and challenging to low-epic characters. Once they have the +6 weapon to deal with the DR, that takes that off. As they progress, only 1 character should get the first epic weapon, and that is when they are fighting multiple Epic DR creatures.

I am one of those that does not allow a bane weapon to bypass Epic DR, and the main reason is exactly what was pointed out - it would make a collection of various +4 bane weapons more cost-effective a solution than carrying one +6 weapon.

I have thought of other house rules to make them more useful - including granting some DR Epic with +6 armor - since you can afford the armor first, it starts an arms race - as well as requiring +6 or better bonus to allow the epic enhancements - but that just makes the costs even greater before you can use any of those cool abilities, so it doesn't work well.

Anyway, with all that said, the first Epic Weapon shouldn't enter the game before 24th level (when you can gain the feat) and even then you really need Craft Points or Efficient Item Creation to make it work in a reasonable amount of time. So that really makes 27th level more likely for making them, but you can start handing them out then about 25th.

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DoveArrow 02-25-08, 06:13 PM	I'm having a hard time understanding how crafting epic magical weapons works, so I thought I'd ask the experts. First, is a +2 triple throw light hammer, a legitimate, magical weapon? In other words, can you create one by the RAW, or does the weapon need to be at least +6 in order to have the triple-throw feature? Second, if a +2 triple throw light hammer is a legitimate, magical weapon, by the RAW, is it considered an epic weapon? After all, it requires the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat to create a weapon with this feature, so I'm wondering if that's what qualifies it as an epic weapon, or if it has to have a +6 enhancement bonus? The reason that I'm asking is because a lot of epic level monsters have damage reduction/epic, and so I want to give my party of 22nd level adventures a couple of epic weapons. However, I don't want to give them something with a +6 bonus, because I think that's a little extreme (maybe I'm wrong, but I think it seems extreme). In any event, if you have an answer to my question, let me know. Thanks.
PrinceOfTheVoid 02-25-08, 06:34 PM	DR X/Epic is only penetrable by weapons of a base enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. That bonus does not include the +Modifier of any additional enchantments of the weapon such as triple throwing.
Silvercrys 02-25-08, 06:48 PM	What PrinceOfTheVoid said. In order to bypass DR/Epic, the weapon must have a base enhancement of +6. Requiring the Epic Craft Magic Armors and Armor feat is not enough, nor is a +5 Flaming Greatsword (Or a +2 Triple Throw Light Hammer). Otherwise Epic DR would be easily bypassed by level 20. (If you're intentionally not following the Wealth By Level charts in the DM's Guide and the Epic Level Handbook, you can disregard this section.) If your players don't at least have one weapon each with a total enhancement of +6 (Such as +3 Keen Flame Burst or similar), I suggest taking a good look at what equipment they do have. They're probably far behind the Wealth by Level guidelines.
PrinceOfTheVoid 02-25-08, 07:16 PM	Honestly though, I'd rather have a +5 Speed Keen Ghost Touch Greatsword than a +6 Greatsword. (Especially for 1/3 of the price) Epic Item prices are just stupid sometimes, and level 21 is one of them. Most Damage Reductions aren't really high enough anyways to warrant a +6 weapon at 21st level. Is that even possible with wealth by level? 720,000 gp sounds like a lot, but I don't have the tables on hand. Of course, I haven't played anything under 50th level in over a year now, so my early-epic sensibilities might be a little off.
DoveArrow 02-26-08, 02:06 AM	If your players don't at least have one weapon each with a total enhancement of +6 (Such as +3 Keen Flame Burst or similar), I suggest taking a good look at what equipment they do have. They're probably far behind the Wealth by Level guidelines. My players are right about where they're supposed to be in terms of wealth-by-level guidelines. However, taking a look at the wealth-by-level guidelines, I don't think any of them will be seeing an epic weapon for a long time. Seriously, take a look at the at the tables in the DMG. A 21st level character should have an equipment value of 975,000 gp. A +6 anything costs 720,300 and some change. That's more than two-thirds of the character's equipment value. Yet, a mu spore, which is a CR 21, has DR 10/epic. It just seems to me that no 21st level character should have the resources to get through a mu spore's damage reduction unless the DM decides to give them a weapon that they shouldn't have at their level. Of course, that might be the point. The mu spore's damage reduction might be just the thing that allows it to survive long enough to provide a serious challenge to low-level epic PCs (there's an oxymoron for you). I haven't run an epic campaign before, so I'm really not sure if that's the case. That's why I was thinking about giving the PCs at least one epic weapon, so that if it turns out that epic damage reduction is just too much of a challenge, then at least one character can deal damage to epic monsters. Then later, if I need to, I can seed the game with more epic weapons. If I don't need to, then I won't. My only concern is that I don't want the party to have a weapon that gives them a +6 bonus to hit. It just seems a little too high. I also don't want to give them something as bland as a +6 weapon. I just don't think it has quite the flash that a +2 thundering triple-throw light hammer has. If I'm going to give them an epic weapon, I want it to have some pizazz. Anyway, that's why I was asking. I wanted to know if a +2 thundering triple-throw light hammer could penetrate DR, so that if it couldn't, I could try adding in something else that does.
Krispieman 02-26-08, 06:54 AM	Optionally, you could provide them with a +4 Bane Weapon of the appropriate type. Not everyone agrees that this will penetrate Epic DR, but if it works for you, who cares what the rest of us think? As a side note, Epic weapons, indeed many of the other epic items as well, are not readily available before level 30 if you stick to the wealth by level guidelines. How you handle epic items is 100% up to you. My personal approach is that their availability is limited to 2 options: finding them or creating them. There is no buying (nor selling for that matter) them. No city, including Sigil and Union, has enough wealth to support epic items. With the possible exception of items that cost over 200.000gp and therefor require the appropriate craft epic feat. K-man :cool:
PrinceOfTheVoid 02-26-08, 08:42 AM	So, you don't allow them +5 weapons either? Because, like I said, its eaisly within guidelins or a L21 to have a +5 Keen Speed Ghost Touch Great Sword, which is a hell of a lt better and cheaper than a +6 Greatsword. I mean the difference between +5 and +6 is only 1 damage (5 if you're a L10 frenzied berserker) and 1 to hit, along with the ability to go through epic damage reduction for 500,000 gp.
DoveArrow 02-26-08, 01:20 PM	So, you don't allow them +5 weapons either? Because, like I said, its eaisly within guidelins or a L21 to have a +5 Keen Speed Ghost Touch Great Sword, which is a hell of a lt better and cheaper than a +6 Greatsword. I mean the difference between +5 and +6 is only 1 damage (5 if you're a L10 frenzied berserker) and 1 to hit, along with the ability to go through epic damage reduction for 500,000 gp. I don't really want to get into a debate about whether or not a +6 weapon is too powerful, or if it's more or less powerful than a +5 weapon of broken. The main reason for this is because I've never run an epic campaign before, so I honestly couldn't give an informed response. So taking the conversation in a different direction, do you think it's necessary for the party to have epic weapons at 21st, 22nd, and 23rd level? If so, how many do you think the party should have? Is one enough, should it be just a couple, or should the whole party have +6 longswords?
rob_douglas 02-26-08, 01:43 PM	Defintely not, I think you hit it right on the head with your previous post DoveArrow - the DR Epic that low Cr creatures have is what keeps them alive and challenging to low-epic characters. Once they have the +6 weapon to deal with the DR, that takes that off. As they progress, only 1 character should get the first epic weapon, and that is when they are fighting multiple Epic DR creatures. I am one of those that does not allow a bane weapon to bypass Epic DR, and the main reason is exactly what was pointed out - it would make a collection of various +4 bane weapons more cost-effective a solution than carrying one +6 weapon. I have thought of other house rules to make them more useful - including granting some DR Epic with +6 armor - since you can afford the armor first, it starts an arms race - as well as requiring +6 or better bonus to allow the epic enhancements - but that just makes the costs even greater before you can use any of those cool abilities, so it doesn't work well. Anyway, with all that said, the first Epic Weapon shouldn't enter the game before 24th level (when you can gain the feat) and even then you really need Craft Points or Efficient Item Creation to make it work in a reasonable amount of time. So that really makes 27th level more likely for making them, but you can start handing them out then about 25th. ROB