Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnwhitmyre 03-22-07, 12:40 AM	in our campaign i am gonna make an "Angel" build. you know like an archangel we are given a total of 25 levels. and a lvl adjustment of +5(prefer to keep it low) our dm doesnt like us starting with alot of wonderous items so he is limiting us to 3 wonderous items(no more then 30k gp each) but the other items we can get whatever(no item can be mor than 25% of total wealth, i think 25th lvl you get amassed like 2.25 million gp) any ideas people? i was thinking like Human/Half-Celestial Fighter7/Cleric3/Paladin4/Sorceror7 who knows......i'd like to see some ideas. anything will help, we wont be playing these guys for a while. our campaign is the "Gods War" where the gods will go to war and we will battle the Dukes of Hell, Princes of the Abyss, and the Gods to create a new world i guess.
Chanmanm8 03-22-07, 05:38 PM	I sent you a Private Message with a couple ideas. PM me back if you have any questions :D
rob_douglas 03-23-07, 12:17 AM	You could go for a Trumpet Archon - but the +8 LA is tough to handle. Still, Trumpet Archon, Fist of Raziel 5 is ECL25, 17-HD, and casts spells as a Cleric 18 - so you can cast Greater Spell Immunity (Blasphemy, Word of Chaos, and any other 2 spells....) which is a must, and you will qualify for Epic Spellcasting when you get 21HD (Fist 9, Cleric spells at 22nd level) at ECL 29. You get to add your class levels to your SR, so SR 34 (see Hound Archon for example...). Smite 3/day, +5 damage, automatically confirms if it is a critical, is holy. Then go for Divine Emissary later. +8 level adjustment is tough, but it is only 4 more than Half-celestial, and you still gain Str +10, Dex +6, Con +12, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +6, and good saves for your first 12HD, so your saves should match other characters. +14 natural armor, that can still be enhanced by an Amulet is really nice. 90ft. fly speed - 120ft when hasted. Greater Teleport at will. DR that will probably come into effect often enough. You do need your DM to allow you to improve the Trumpet some - to be a powerful enough weapon to match your status. Any other class that stacks Cleric levels is good too - you only need 3 levels in it to get 9th level spells. ROB
runestar 03-23-07, 01:19 AM	Lesser assimar(LA+0), with outsider wings to simulate your angelic ancestry, and take 25 class lvs...:P
Chanmanm8 03-24-07, 07:51 PM	You could go for a Trumpet Archon - but the +8 LA is tough to handle. One build I sent him that I've used is starting as a psion/wizard going cerebremancer. Then, when you qualify for epic spellcasting, develop a spell using the transform seed to transform yourself (ideally instantenous rather than permanent so it cant be dispelled) into a solar. You have full fledged access to arcane and psionic and then gain divine from being a solar (a solar can prepare divine spells as if it were a 20th level cleric). Pay the extra +25 DC to retain your alignment, class levels, and personality. You merge all of your abilities (except supernatural abilities you originally possessed I believe) and pay +10 DC for each ability you want to gain from the entity you are transforming into. For a more aggressive use of this spell (a la powergamer-esque) use scrying, resources, knowledge checks; etc to find the existance of a Paragon solar (possibly templated with Epic Pseudonatural as well) and pay the extra DC to turn into a specific entity (this one that you researched or learned about). Then, you can further bring down the cost of the spell via extra spellcasters (even simulacrums of yourself). Do too much and it would be munchin like (bring the spell DC really really low for instance), so I wouldn't agree with that...see what you can do for the other things.
Fireclave 03-24-07, 08:24 PM	Human Favored Soul 25 ...yeah, I know. I'm boring :rolleyes:
Balthanon 03-24-07, 11:31 PM	Human/Half-Celestial Fighter7/Cleric3/Paladin4/Sorceror7 who knows......i'd like to see some ideas. anything will help, we wont be playing these guys for a while. our campaign is the "Gods War" where the gods will go to war and we will battle the Dukes of Hell, Princes of the Abyss, and the Gods to create a new world i guess. Frankly, that build is way too fragmented to be effective. If you have +5 LA to spend, I would use them on an actual angelic race rather than half-celestial. You also want to concentrate on one or two aspects of the character-- if you want to be a spellcaster, then focus upon either divine or arcane magic and make sure almost every level is increasing your caster level and spells known. If you want to be a holy warrior type, like paladin, then concentrate on your base attack bonus-- at a minimum, it should be a +16 by the time you have 20 hit dice. You may want to clarify the starting options though-- are you ECL 25 with a limit of 5 LA at most, or should you be ECL 30 with 5 free LA? Going off of your build, it is the former, but here are a few other options with both taken into account (assuming you want the traditional white winged angelic appearance. - Another option that minimizes level adjustment but still leaves you with wings and the outsider type is Aasimar with the feat in Races of Faerun that grants wings. - justice archon (MM IV) - 6 HD, +5 LA; flight, abilty scores, justice strike (option of dealing the damage of your enemies primary attack instead of your own) - protectar (Miniature's Handbook) - 2 HD, +3 LA; flight, ability scores (though the half-celestial may actually be a more powerful option this gives me more of an "angel" feel)
rob_douglas 03-25-07, 12:34 AM	One build I sent him that I've used is starting as a psion/wizard going cerebremancer. Then, when you qualify for epic spellcasting, develop a spell using the transform seed to transform yourself (ideally instantenous rather than permanent so it cant be dispelled) into a solar. I would assume his DM isn't insane enough to allow this. The cost of the transformation should be quite prohibitive, unless you abuse mitigation costs - and in the end as an Instantaneous change, it would result in a +14 LA as well. Since the DM wanted 25th level characters, he probably won't go for that. Besides, the Transformation should also blow away the class levels and replace them with Solar HD, unless you are adding those on top. Then you are talking about a 36-level increase, so an ECL 61 character - still not a good fit in a 25th level campaign. If all you are trying to do is prove that Epic Spellcasting can be broken, well, that's a given. :) ROB
Chanmanm8 03-25-07, 12:54 AM	I would assume his DM isn't insane enough to allow this. The cost of the transformation should be quite prohibitive, unless you abuse mitigation costs - and in the end as an Instantaneous change, it would result in a +14 LA as well. Since the DM wanted 25th level characters, he probably won't go for that. Besides, the Transformation should also blow away the class levels and replace them with Solar HD, unless you are adding those on top. Then you are talking about a 36-level increase, so an ECL 61 character - still not a good fit in a 25th level campaign. If all you are trying to do is prove that Epic Spellcasting can be broken, well, that's a given. :) ROB no, i was just flourishing the idea for the OP as to what one could do with it, even though it doesnt matter. and as for the abusive mitigates, I already discussed that in my post and that IMO it would be bad for several reasons to do such a thing anyways. As for achieving the solar transformation. He could simply use the Shapechange spell, having more than sufficient HD to do so ( a GENERIC one, not the extreme example that i gave above with the Paragon Epic Pseudo...that was just a extended example as I stated :rolleyes: ), and thus wouldn't actually change his race, nor be in the form constantly from one casting. Albeit preventatives such as antimagic, dispel effects, etc could disrupt this...that is more than expected for a reasonable use as opposed to actually changing his race. The example I gave was to just give an example I had done myself (normal solar, not paragon/epic pseudo lol). -The Chanman
CelestialBarbarian 03-25-07, 01:56 PM	You could go for a Trumpet Archon - but the +8 LA is tough to handle. Still, Trumpet Archon, Fist of Raziel 5 is ECL25, 17-HD, and casts spells as a Cleric 18 - so you can cast Greater Spell Immunity (Blasphemy, Word of Chaos, and any other 2 spells....) which is a must, and you will qualify for Epic Spellcasting when you get 21HD (Fist 9, Cleric spells at 22nd level) at ECL 29. You get to add your class levels to your SR, so SR 34 (see Hound Archon for example...). Smite 3/day, +5 damage, automatically confirms if it is a critical, is holy. Then go for Divine Emissary later. +8 level adjustment is tough, but it is only 4 more than Half-celestial, and you still gain Str +10, Dex +6, Con +12, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +6, and good saves for your first 12HD, so your saves should match other characters. +14 natural armor, that can still be enhanced by an Amulet is really nice. 90ft. fly speed - 120ft when hasted. Greater Teleport at will. DR that will probably come into effect often enough. You do need your DM to allow you to improve the Trumpet some - to be a powerful enough weapon to match your status. Any other class that stacks Cleric levels is good too - you only need 3 levels in it to get 9th level spells. ROB Another advantage of this sort of build is that it allows you access to the 6th-level spell quickshift from BoED, which quickens your greater teleport for the duration of the spell, which is 1 round/level. I once ran an NPC ghale eladrin with access to quickshift and he was awesome in combat--he almost never failed to take a full attack action if he chose to engage in melee. Another option, perhaps not as tricked out, would be to play an astral deva (ECL 20) with five levels of something. As an angel, an astra deva needs only a good alignment, unlike the archon which needs to be lawful good. So you could play a neutral good or chaotic good astral deva. You could even take 5 levels of barbarian and go into a righteous wrath when you fight! Then you could be, you know, a celestial barbarian :D I was also going to suggest the ghale eladrin with 5 additional levels as a possibility. Savage Species gives the full ghale eladrin, like the astral deva, an ECL of 20. I see, however, that the 3.5 MM does not list for the ghale the LA of +10 needed to make the ghale an ECL of 20, suggesting that it effectively has an ECL higher than 20. I see that the ELH (page 37) gives the ghale an ECL of 21, but then it gives the astral deva an ECL of 22. Maybe the authors of the 3.5 MM thought that the astral deva, without a full compliment of clerical spellcasting ability, simply didn't offer as much power for a PC as would the ghale, which casts as a 14-level cleric. You could treat the ghale then as having an ECL of 21, and then add 4 class levels. If you made them clerical levels, you'd raise the ghale's effective clerical caster level to 18--more than enough to get those 9th level spells, opening the gate to epic level spellcasting if you like.
Balthanon 03-25-07, 06:17 PM	You could treat the ghale then as having an ECL of 21, and then add 4 class levels. If you made them clerical levels, you'd raise the ghale's effective clerical caster level to 18--more than enough to get those 9th level spells, opening the gate to epic level spellcasting if you like. The ghaele eladrin was given an ECL of 20 in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which came out after the 3.5 Monster Manual.
CelestialBarbarian 03-25-07, 09:09 PM	The ghaele eladrin was given an ECL of 20 in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which came out after the 3.5 Monster Manual. Oh, excellent! Good catch! Then the OP could play a ghaele with 5 clerical levels for an effective CL of 19. I really enjoyed playing the ghaele NPC with the quickshift spell. He was awesome in melee. (He was the meat shield for the PC archer around whom the adventure was based.) The only drawback to the ghaele from the perspective of my enjoyment was its lack of wings. I can fly, but it has to take a standard action to turn into the weird globe form in which it can fly. It can't melee in globe form either. I played a PC astral deva using Savage Species rules updated to 3.5. He started at about 3rd level and I got to play him to 7th or 8th. I really had a blast. Of course the LA doesn't start to get high before 8th, so I really hadn't suffered much in the way of disadvantages. I'm not sure if having only 12 hit dice at 20th level would allow him to be as much fun. A lot of the fun came though not from his abilities but from the way I got to roleplay him, but if he'd been a weakling in combat I wouldn't have been able to roleplay him as so tough. Still, I would have enjoyed the chance to play him all the way up to 20th level--and beyond! I had no definite plan in mind for what to do after 20th level as I know from experience that few campaigns indeed last anywhere near that long.
Balthanon 03-25-07, 09:26 PM	Oh, excellent! Good catch! Then the OP could play a ghaele with 5 clerical levels for an effective CL of 19. Depending on what that +5 LA actually meant-- if it was a hard limit on level adjustment or starting ECL, then the ghaele isn't going to be an option.
CelestialBarbarian 03-25-07, 10:47 PM	Depending on what that +5 LA actually meant-- if it was a hard limit on level adjustment or starting ECL, then the ghaele isn't going to be an option. I'm afraid that I don't follow you at all.
Balthanon 03-25-07, 11:23 PM	we are given a total of 25 levels. and a lvl adjustment of +5(prefer to keep it low) I was speaking about this line-- he mentions that he has a level adjustment of +5. That could mean he is limited to a +5 level adjustment, limited to +5 in LA and HD (if the DM or player isn't too familiar with ECL), or that he was given 5 LA to work with for free (which could have total limits or just come off the top on a higher ECL creature). The original poster hasn't chimed back in to clarify, so its hard to say.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 01:19 AM	I was speaking about this line-- he mentions that he has a level adjustment of +5. That could mean he is limited to a +5 level adjustment, limited to +5 in LA and HD (if the DM or player isn't too familiar with ECL), or that he was given 5 LA to work with for free (which could have total limits or just come off the top on a higher ECL creature). The original poster hasn't chimed back in to clarify, so its hard to say. Ok, thanks. The latter part of that sentence never stuck in my mind. If he's limited to something with a level adjustment of no more than +5, obviously there's no way to do the ghaele, astral deva, or trumpet archon. He could do a hound archon or bralani eladrin from MM, or a coure eladrin or musteval guardinal from BoED, although none of them seem very angelic in style. Fiend Folio has two deva types, the monadic and movanic. These look like angels and under the 3.5 categories would, like the astral deva, be angels in the game too. Fiend Folio, unfortunately, came out before 3.5, and lists no level adjustments. BoED, sadly, doesn't list either under among the sample exalted cohorts. Both devas have some pretty nice abilities, however, so I wouldn't be surprised if each deserved a level adjustment in excess of +5. Perhaps others on list thread could make better estimates of the appropriate level adjustments. So if you're limited to a level adjustment of +5, your best bet for an "angel" would probably be a humanoid with the half-celestial template (LA +4) and 21 class levels. Then he (or she) can be pretty much any class or combination of classes that you want. Depending on what role you wanted the character to play, you could take levels in a base class or two and an associated exalted prestige class or even two. Like you could do a barbarian/champion of Gwynharwyf/sword of righteousness, a barbarian/fighter/champion of Gwyharwyf, a cleric/celestial mystic/wonderworker, or a sorcerer/celestial mystic/exalted arcanist. If your DM is limiting you to a +5 LA, I wonder if he (or she) has the limit to protect you from playing underpowered creatures or more likely to protect himself against you playing an overpowered creature. Most people on boards and among the players I've known seem to regard creatures with level adjustments, especially higher ones, as generally weaker. From my experience with the half-celestial template, you're definitely weaker for your first 3 hit dice, but start to catch up around 4 hit dice. Somewhere in the teens I think you become more powerful. I'm basing most of this off of melee-oriented half-celestial humanoids. The more hit dice you have, the more the +4 bonus to Constitution gives you an advantage in hit points. Before 4 hit dice you're basically an eggshell armed with a sledgehammer. :D I envy you the opportunity to play a 25th-level character. Only once has a campaign continued long enough for me to get a character that high. (I had a half-celestial human barbarian/lightning warrior who reached 27th level. In that campaign everyone eventually earned divine ranks, and as I recall my character ended with 2 or 3. That was probably the most enjoyable campaign in which I ever played.) Even if the DM limited me to a +5 LA, I'd be happy to create a half-celestial with 21 class levels.
Chanmanm8 03-26-07, 10:58 AM	another thing to consider using Transform Seed: taking some of the abilities of the angel you are transforming into. By taking less, wouldn't you agree an LA would decrease? According to the system/rules on Savage Species, the abilities affect on a creature determining their ECL could be reduced if you don't take all or most of the powers. For instance, Wish as a spelllike ability is a whopping +3 LA since as a spell like ability, you don't pay the xp cost. Thoughts on this approach?
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 11:13 AM	another thing to consider using Transform Seed: taking some of the abilities of the angel you are transforming into. By taking less, wouldn't you agree an LA would decrease? According to the system/rules on Savage Species, the abilities affect on a creature determining their ECL could be reduced if you don't take all or most of the powers. For instance, Wish as a spelllike ability is a whopping +3 LA since as a spell like ability, you don't pay the xp cost. Thoughts on this approach? Well if someone's trying use an epic spell with the transform seed to take a lower ECL character and transform it into a higher level ECL creature withotu having to treat the creature as having the higher ECL, I flat out wouldn't allow it in my campaign, and I'd think twice about allowing a player like that into the campaign too. That's just a gross abuse. Now if we're talking about taking a creature with with X ECL and reducing iti to X - Y ECL by removing special abilities, sure, that can work. I did that with someone who wanted to play a nymph on the campaign. The resulting nymph rogue turned out to be even more useless, however, than we warned the player she would, and after the wizard got killed in two encounters in a row while the nymph plinked ineffectually with a wand of magic missiles, we had a player conflict that ended with me asking the player of the useless nymph to leave the group. Of course that sort of thing won't happen all the time. If you took a trumpet archon and stripped it of some of its powers, it might still be quite useful. I would still consider doing something like that. Or you could just use the Savage Species rules to gradually build into the full-powered version of something. So you might not start out with something with all the abilities, and slowly work up to them. Some abilities, like unlimited wishes, I might not every allow though, and might instead, as you suggest, simply lower the LA and get rid of them.
Chanmanm8 03-26-07, 03:52 PM	Well if someone's trying use an epic spell with the transform seed to take a lower ECL character and transform it into a higher level ECL creature withotu having to treat the creature as having the higher ECL, I flat out wouldn't allow it in my campaign, and I'd think twice about allowing a player like that into the campaign too. That's just a gross abuse. Now if we're talking about taking a creature with with X ECL and reducing iti to X - Y ECL by removing special abilities, sure, that can work. I did that with someone who wanted to play a nymph on the campaign. The resulting nymph rogue turned out to be even more useless, however, than we warned the player she would, and after the wizard got killed in two encounters in a row while the nymph plinked ineffectually with a wand of magic missiles, we had a player conflict that ended with me asking the player of the useless nymph to leave the group. Of course that sort of thing won't happen all the time. If you took a trumpet archon and stripped it of some of its powers, it might still be quite useful. I would still consider doing something like that. Or you could just use the Savage Species rules to gradually build into the full-powered version of something. So you might not start out with something with all the abilities, and slowly work up to them. Some abilities, like unlimited wishes, I might not every allow though, and might instead, as you suggest, simply lower the LA and get rid of them. Right, I meant in terms of what you discussed that I put in bold. For the Solar example for instance, removing virtually all of its spell like abilities (including its once per day wish), its supernatural ability to change shape, . Some of the abilities it can use at will include 9th level spells like Imprisonment. Removing these with an appropriate reduction of the +14 LA from dragon magazine ideally. What would you say would be the new LA being after removing all of its Spell like Abilities and shape change ability (and taking into consideration other factors in following paragraphs)? According to Savage Species and Dragon Magazine, Wish as a spell like ability increases LA by +3 alone (should this be altered for the case of a PC?). According to the Transform seed spell specifics for the specific transformation, the PC would gain the abilities written as its racial traits (as in the monster manual for "angels" in general) and all other "physical and natural" abilities such as the Str, Dex, and Con of the solar, natural armor, weight, size category, other limbs (such as the wings on a solar). ***NOTE: Despite the Solar having a base Con of 20, the Transform Seed specifically states you DO NOT alter your Hit Points due to the change in Con (if any) from the creatures base Con. So, if he started with an 8 Con, he WOULDN'T change his hit points as if it started at 20. So no jump in vitality due to this spell either Here are what the traits are for "angelic" from SRD: Angel Traits An angel possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). * Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. * Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification. * Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10. * +4 racial bonus on saves against poison. * Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.) * Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active. So again, if one was to not include any of the spell like abilities, extraordinary abilities (the Regeneration as on the SRD)....what would the LA be reduced to from +14 LA? It would seem to start at +11 after removing wish...so after that???
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 03-26-07, 11:54 PM	One player in my party lv 21th use a half-celestial paladin 6/fist of Raziel 11. I guess you want to play a character similar to Serra Angel (I see that angel of Magic the Gathering in your forum image), so a half-celestial paladin with a strong prestige class like fist of Raziel is a good choice, and its a similar in flavor to the Serra Angel. For example if you use the same option as my player for level 25th you can use a half-celestial paladin 6/fist of Raziel 15. (I am still looking for a more appropiate prestige class for a angel-like paladin formerly evil, and turned to increidible goodness by his own deeds -with deific intervention through-). The Half-celestial is a strong template who gets nice spells, white angel wings and its only +4 LA, although in planewalker.com maybe you can found better low LA angel like templates, or even lesser celestials with low LA. Note that in epic levels you can get additional levels in prestige classes with 10 levels of progression.
Bladesinger Boy 03-27-07, 01:22 AM	hmmm... +2 Half Celestial +2 Saint +2 Half Dragon 4 Paladin/4Sorcerer/3Spellsword/10Eldritch Knight /3Epic Eldritch Knight since one level of the +6 spills over from the +5 freebie levels. - Bab +20 (out of 24 HD) - spellcasting sorc 18 advancement/ 22 caster level with Practiced Spellcaster feat - turn undead charges, which can allow: power attack & divine might, divine shield, or divine metamagic (d=can that work on arcane spellslots?) - Divine Grace, Smite Evil - can take feats like Arcane Strike, Sudden Quicken, Mobile Spellcasting, ... that "complete adventure" put-a-hole-in-the-fireball spellcasting feat - for Epic feats, take Dire Charge (requiring Power Lunge), Automatic Quick Spell, Multispell
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 06:58 AM	Right, I meant in terms of what you discussed that I put in bold. For the Solar example for instance, removing virtually all of its spell like abilities (including its once per day wish), its supernatural ability to change shape, . Some of the abilities it can use at will include 9th level spells like Imprisonment. Removing these with an appropriate reduction of the +14 LA from dragon magazine ideally. What issue of Dragon has the solar level adjustment? With a level adjustment of +14, that would give it an ECL of 36. You'd have to reduce the LA by a total of at least +11 to get the solar down to an ECL of 25. It would be cool to play a solar. :D
Chanmanm8 03-27-07, 11:39 AM	What issue of Dragon has the solar level adjustment? With a level adjustment of +14, that would give it an ECL of 36. You'd have to reduce the LA by a total of at least +11 to get the solar down to an ECL of 25. It would be cool to play a solar. :D Ya definitely. So, figure removing all the spell like abilities, the regeneration, the change shape ability, the LA be brought down to around there??? Or perhaps do the similar thing with a Planetar instead...and then upgrade to solar later XD
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 11:50 AM	Ya definitely. So, figure removing all the spell like abilities, the regeneration, the change shape ability, the LA be brought down to around there??? Or perhaps do the similar thing with a Planetar instead...and then upgrade to solar later XD Do you know the issue of Dragon that listed the solar's level adjustment? Thanks! :) I wouldn't mind going with an astral deva +5 class levels. I think someone could do interesting things with that combination.
Chanmanm8 03-27-07, 11:52 AM	Do you know the issue of Dragon that listed the solar's level adjustment? Thanks! :) I wouldn't mind going with an astral deva +5 class levels. I think someone could do interesting things with that combination. I do not know which issue it's in. I know it is that because there was another thread with this similar topic about being a solar, and people began stating this value from the dragon magazines. Sorry :(. Maybe google?
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 11:57 AM	I do not know which issue it's in. I know it is that because there was another thread with this similar topic about being a solar, and people began stating this value from the dragon magazines. Sorry :(. Maybe google? I did a couple of quick Google searches, but couldn't find it. :(
Chanmanm8 03-27-07, 12:02 PM	I did a couple of quick Google searches, but couldn't find it. :( I FOUND IT!!! On the Archives since its an older post. rob_douglas 11-20-06, 04:16 PM There was an attempt in Dragon Magazine prior to Savage Species (Dragon 293, March 2002), that placed a Planetar at ECL 28 (LA +14) and a Solar at 36 (also +14). The Balor was Balor 28 (that was the old 13-HD one) and Marilith 24 (also old). Pit Fiend 26 (I think they were 16 HD in 3.0). It is the best source I have for some of those mega levels. There is also Upper_Krust's independent assertion that ECL should be 3/2*CR. It at least gets you in the right ball park. ROB Tried google a lot...finally got it ;) :D
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 12:46 PM	I FOUND IT!!! On the Archives since its an older post. Tried google a lot...finally got it ;) :D Thanks! You were more persistant than I--and probably didn't have any student papers to grade. :D I pulled out issue 293 and found the article on pages 52-55. This is 3.0, not 3.5, so it might have changed. The solar's number of hit dice hasn't changed, so the level adjustment probably remains at least in the ballpark.
rob_douglas 03-27-07, 04:43 PM	It's a best guess. I would have gotten around to telling you the issue number once I caught up on this thread. ;) The article points out they wanted feedback on these numbers for use in developing Savage Species. Still, it works well. @Alder Re: Half-Celestial Palasin6/Fist of Raziel 15 - you can't take epic levels of Fist until you have 20HD, so you need to come up with 4 other levels before Fist 11. @ Bladesinger, Re: the Half-Celestial, Saint, Half-Dragon, you are using CR adjustments, and not Level Adjustment. Those would be +4, +2, and +3 respectively, so if you went with all 3, +9 LA - leaving only 16 class levels. The OP asked for ECL 25, so you can't get all that Eldritch knight in there as well, but Pal4/Sor6/EldKn6 is not bad. +13 BAB off 16 HD, so he will easily make +16 and 4 attacks before epic. 11th level sorcerer spells, but +12 to CHA! That will really help, since it will affect Turns per day (for your Divine Might), Spell DC, healing (+24hp/day), and all saves get +6 more from Divine Grace. The spell like abilities are nice, and Protective Aura, and insight bonuc to AC from Saint with +6 more to WIS. STR is well served too - +10 I believe. hmmm... I may have to stat this idea up.... ROB
Balthanon 03-27-07, 06:11 PM	Another interesting alternative might be to play an Enlightened Spirit out of Complete Mage, they get a number of powers that essentially transform them into a celestial. Given some of the precedents established in Epic Insights with other transformative classes, you could probably develop an epic progression that pushes that even further.
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 07:03 PM	It's a best guess. I would have gotten around to telling you the issue number once I caught up on this thread. ;) The article points out they wanted feedback on these numbers for use in developing Savage Species. Still, it works well. @Alder Re: Half-Celestial Palasin6/Fist of Raziel 15 - you can't take epic levels of Fist until you have 20HD, so you need to come up with 4 other levels before Fist 11. @ Bladesinger, Re: the Half-Celestial, Saint, Half-Dragon, you are using CR adjustments, and not Level Adjustment. Those would be +4, +2, and +3 respectively, so if you went with all 3, +9 LA - leaving only 16 class levels. The OP asked for ECL 25, so you can't get all that Eldritch knight in there as well, but Pal4/Sor6/EldKn6 is not bad. +13 BAB off 16 HD, so he will easily make +16 and 4 attacks before epic. 11th level sorcerer spells, but +12 to CHA! That will really help, since it will affect Turns per day (for your Divine Might), Spell DC, healing (+24hp/day), and all saves get +6 more from Divine Grace. The spell like abilities are nice, and Protective Aura, and insight bonuc to AC from Saint with +6 more to WIS. STR is well served too - +10 I believe. hmmm... I may have to stat this idea up.... ROB Oh, I was going to comment earlier that the half-dragon doesn't seem like it fits the flavor of an archangel. It seems more like something thrown in just for mechanical enchancements. :(
rob_douglas 03-27-07, 11:34 PM	Oh, it definitely was....Not a good reason to use it, but interesting just to see how the LA fits in that case. Half-celestial and Saint though, that is a nice combo, and does fit. Half-celestial, Saint, Pal 4/Fav Soul2/Fist of Raziel10/Contemplative3... That's what I am thinking... ROB
rob_douglas 03-29-07, 11:37 PM	Hey OK, just to see how things looked, I quickly threw together a Half-Celestial, Half-Dragon (Silver) Saint (Outsider) - if you choose Gold dragon, you are also immune to fire Paladin4/FavoredSoul3/FistofRaziel9 (ECL 25) 32-point buy Cost Base 1/2C 1/2D S Level Inh Enh Total Mod STR 6 14 +4 +8 +5 +6 37 +13 DEX 3 11 +2 +5 +6 24 +7 CON 4 12 +4 +2 +2 +5 +6 31 +10 INT 0 8 +2 +2 +5 +6 23 +6 WIS 6 14 +4 +2 +5 +6 31 +10 CHA 13 17 +4 +2 +4 +4 +5 +6 42 +16 HD 4d10+3d8+9d10+160 hp 257 (heroic average) Initiative +7 Speed 30ft, fly 60ft. AC 50, flat-footed 38, touch 32 (+8 bracers of armor, +7 dex, +10 natural, +5 deflection, +10 insight) BAB/Grap +15/+28 Attacks +5 Holy Avenger Longsword +34/+29/+24 (1d8+18+3d6 Holy) and Bite +23 (1d6+6+2d6 Holy) and Claw +23 (1d4+6+2d6 Holy) Space/Rch 5ft./5ft. SA Smite Evil (6/day: +16/+13); Smite Evil (1/day: +0/+16); Spells; SLAs, Holy power (+2 save DCs); Holy touch (+1d6 holy, +1d8 vs evil undead/outsiders); turn undead 19/day (level 1) SQ Darkvision 60ft, low-light vision; Immunities: disease, sleep, paralysis, acid, cold, electricity, petrification; Resist Fire 10; DR 10/magic and evil; SR 26; +4 save vs poison; Breath Weapon (30ft. cone of cold, 6d8 DC 22); Fast Healing 10; Aura of Courage Saves Base Ability Grace Resist Total Fort +13 +10 +16 +5 +44 Ref +7 +7 +16 +5 +35 Will +7 +10 +16 +5 +38 Abilities see above Skills Diplomacy +35, Feats(10) Power Attack, Divine Might, Weapon Focus (longsword), Practiced Spellcaster (Fav Soul), Exalted Smite, Sanctify Marital Strike, Sunder Evil Item, Improved Critical (longsword), 2 others... CR 23 Alignment Lawful Good SLAs (caster level 16) at will Daylight (Su), detect evil, guidance, resistance, virtue, bless, Tongues (Su, CL 14) 1/day aid, Cure Sr. Wds, neutrlize poison, holy smite, remove disease, dispel evil, holy word, hallow, mass charm monster 3/day Pro Evil 3/day, holy aura 3/day Lay on Hands (40hp/day) Smite Evil: Good-aligned, Confirming - all Smite Crits auto confirm, Holy, Fiendsmite +4d8 evil undead/outsiders, Chain - up to 5 additional evil targets, 2d6 or 2d8 vs undead/outsiders, DC 33 Ref for half Protective Aura (Su): 20ft radius, light, +4 deflection vs evil, +4 resistance vs evil, minor globe of invulnerability Spells (as FavoredSoul11: 6/10/10/10/10/7, Known: 9/6/6/5/4/3, CL 15, DC 22+Spell level): [Is this right, that Favored Souls use WIS for spell DC, but CHA for being able to cast them and spells/day? If this is an errata - then DC is 28+Spell Level] Haven't chosen spells yet..... Equipment (wealth = 2.1M, 3 items 210K-525K): 64K Bracers of Armor +8 144K Headband of Mental Prowess (+6 INT, WIS, CHA) 50K Amulet of Natural Armor +5 50K Ring of Protection +5 25K Cloak of Resistance +5 36K Gloves of Dex +6 90K Belt of Physical Prowess (+6 STR, CON) 120K +5 Holy Avenger (cold iron, +2d6 holy damage, SR 19 (or 28 if DM allows Fist to stack), Greater Dispel at will (CL 4 or 13)) - I would allow Fist and Paladin levels to stack for this 825K +5 inherent to 6 abilities --------- 1404K My analysis - Spells are ok, at 32nd level, you will get 9th level spells, which will be nice. Attack bonus is a little low. AC is ok, but still easily hittable. Saves are amazing, and damage potential in a round of Smite and Divine Might is incredible, especially with a Crit. But he is way behind on nice Epic stuff. Immunities are nice, and can help. I could save money on deflection and resistance items. No thoughts to how to spend all the other money. I am sure I will come up with something. I just wanted to get the stat changing items in. Could add Monk's belt for the additional +11 armor (Monk's is not an insight bonus, right?) Well, that was fun anyway.... ROB