40th lvl Sorcerer Trouble [Archive] - Wizards Community

40th lvl Sorcerer Trouble [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 07:53 PM Hey everyone. I just got done creating a 40th level Sorcerer. Now I am not the greatest with spellcasters to begin with, let alone epic ones. My spell save DC's cap at 43 for 9th level spells...that sux. My Charisma is currently 58, so that gives me 24, and I have no idea how to raise that any higher. It already has a +18 enhancement bonus and a +4 Inherent bonus. How can I get my spells to be harder to resist?

I would take feats, but the build I have is very feat intensive and will be very difficult to work around with, plus I am pulling spells from a few different schools, so it wouldn't make much sense to take Spell Focus a bunch of times. The only other tactic I have is casting Devil's Ego, which is a +4 profane bonus, and then intensifying it, for like a +10 or so bonus. Any ideas or other tricks?
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-01-07, 07:59 PM Well, there are always insight bonuses to Charisma, and epic spells that increase it(if you don't have that already). Sacred/profane works too.
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 08:01 PM I know these bonuses exist, but where can I find them. As for Epic Spells, I have a few already, and they have been very expensive and I cannot really afford anymore. So I am really looking for items or maybe feats to help with this. I just can't find any items, spells, or anything that give those other types of bonuses
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-01-07, 08:10 PM You have to make them yourself. That is, they aren't in any puplished sources.(To my knowledge anyway)
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 08:36 PM Well that sux. I am not that good at making new magic items. Maybe I will have to try to make some new spells or something then
Caros
09-01-07, 08:37 PM Insight bonuses are granted by the books from the DMG they cap at +5. Don't use wish ^_^;
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-01-07, 08:39 PM Well that sux. I am not that good at making new magic items. Maybe I will have to try to make some new spells or something then

Dude, it's as simple as "Headband of Insightful Intelligence +6, 90.000gp" or something. It's not hard. Just go look at the tables in the back of the DMG, use them as guidelines and fiddle with the price until you are satisfied.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-01-07, 08:40 PM Insight bonuses are granted by the books from the DMG they cap at +5. Don't use wish ^_^;

Those are Inherent actually.
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 08:45 PM I'll have to check those tables out. I never really messed with them before. Do the bonuses still cap at +6 if they are under epic for those weirder bonuses, like insight and Profane? (I have to use profane, since my character is evil)
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-01-07, 08:49 PM I'll have to check those tables out. I never really messed with them before. Do the bonuses still cap at +6 if they are under epic for those weirder bonuses, like insight and Profane? (I have to use profane, since my character is evil)

I would think so yes. IIRC one of the criterion for bonuses becoming priced as epic is if they grant a bonus to an ability higher then +6.
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 09:00 PM I thought so. So I need to find the price to create an item with an insight and profane bonus and to see what it would be up to +6 and beyond +6. Cool
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-01-07, 09:13 PM Or just make an epic spell that grants a huge bonus. That seems to be the way to go around here.
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 09:16 PM Well, if someone has an Epic Spell already made up that does this, it would be greatly appreciated.
archerpwr
09-01-07, 09:29 PM Well, if someone has an Epic Spell already made up that does this, it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm going to assume that by 40th level you won't die of old age.

Fortify seed. Increase enhancement bonus until satisfied. Make permanant by multiplying the DC by 5. Decrease DC to 0 by making it a ritual (epic leadership helps) and/or increasing casting time.

Honestly, just don't cast spells that give saves.
runestar
09-01-07, 10:49 PM At this juncture, you should start concentrating on spells which do not rely on saves, since they will for most part, scale faster than your can boost your dcs. Thus, it becomes an increasingly uphill task.
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 10:56 PM I Have tried, but all the debuffs I am looking at have saves to them. If anyone knows any good debuffs that don't give saves, I am all ears.

On another note, I think my math is wrong. I just created an Epic spell that gives me a +60 Enhancement bonus, permanantly, but the cost is only 735,000 gp. I used the Fortify Seed
archerpwr
09-01-07, 11:29 PM I Have tried, but all the debuffs I am looking at have saves to them. If anyone knows any good debuffs that don't give saves, I am all ears.

Not many on the sorc/wiz list. Kinda why gishes are so effective at this level; there is no save for damage. Check out RotD and dragon magic for sorc spells that are good for their level. Wings of cover and arcane fusion are musts.
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-01-07, 11:42 PM Debuffs are no good at those high levels; enemies are pretty much immune to everything. Focus on buffs (Such as gish characters) and battlefield control, especially saveless stuff like Web.
ZiggZagg
09-01-07, 11:50 PM What is Arcane Fusion?
ZiggZagg
09-02-07, 12:01 AM Never mind, I found it in Complete Mage
BillTheManiac
09-02-07, 07:48 AM No one mentioned Improved Spell Capacity? Take 1 per 2 levels and that will help significantly.
runestar
09-02-07, 10:05 AM Hoping to boost your dcs via of combination if ISC and improved heighten is perhaps the most inefficient method there is.

For starters, enervation has no save. If your foe is not protected from negative energy, try using metamicked enervations to weaken them for your fighters. Take improved metamagic to make this process cheaper. For example, with 2 improved metamagics, a repeating twinned maximized enervation just uses a 8th lv slot and drains 8 lvs each round, for a total of 16 negative lvs over 2 rounds.

Limited wish can lower a foe's save by 7.

I don't normally recommend direct damage (epic foes tend to just have too much hp to make blasting worthwhile), but orb spells might work in a pinch, since they don't allow saves/sr. Take enhance spell to raise their damage cap, and mix in other metamagic feats like twin and intensify spell. As always, take as many improved metamagic as you can muster.
Aluroon
09-02-07, 12:10 PM I don't normally recommend direct damage (epic foes tend to just have too much hp to make blasting worthwhile), but orb spells might work in a pinch, since they don't allow saves/sr. Take enhance spell to raise their damage cap, and mix in other metamagic feats like twin and intensify spell. As always, take as many improved metamagic as you can muster.

Yeh, because when your opponents Reflect based spell or Infinite Deflection/Reflection are triggered its fun!

Fortify seed. Increase enhancement bonus until satisfied. Make permanant by multiplying the DC by 5. Decrease DC to 0 by making it a ritual (epic leadership helps) and/or increasing casting time.

Honestly, just don't cast spells that give saves.

Wow, more wonderful advice. Create a 100 day ritual for a spell that gets negated by the first spellcaster you face, because as a permanent (yes, thats right, permanent, not permanant) spell it is subject to not only disjunction but also high bonus dispels (using the dispel seed). If you have to do something like that make it permanent (x5) then instantaneous (x2). At that point though its not going to grant a very high bonus. The better option is a everyday buff that grants say a +20 sacred bonus with a 10 minute casting time.

On the other hand you could do like archerpwr says and not cast 95% of the spells in the PhB.

I'll see if I can dig out a 30th or 40th level spellcaster.

Note: I would never create a spell granting a large bonus to ability scores, as I confirm to Dicefreaks ability score caps, and further such spells are the ultimate cheese of the epic spellcasting system.
RealSorceror
09-02-07, 02:04 PM Wait, you just took straight Sorceror for 40 lvls? Theres no reason to do that, you could have had two or three prestige classes with full casting by now. You shoulda gone into Eldritch Thuerge or Ultimate Magus. Even Archmage woulda been sweet.
ZiggZagg
09-02-07, 02:18 PM I'm not good at Sorcerers, but I'm not that bad. I only have five levels of Sorcerer. If it helps, the build is Sorcerer 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Hidecarved Dragon 12/Deep Breath Dracomage 18//Red Dragon 40. The last PrC is a homebrew, and I was going to post it, but the forums didn't seem to take well to the formatting, and I didn't feel like taking the time to fix that.

I did end up creating a spell that granted a +60 enhancement. My will save is pretty high, thanks to Force of Personality, and the way I read the reflect seed, I bounce back all targeted and area spell effects, so dispels might not work on me at all. Depends on how the DM rules it
arderkrag
09-02-07, 03:01 PM 40th level? have 40th level cash? Oh, good. buy 10 tomes of charisma.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-02-07, 03:24 PM 40th level? have 40th level cash? Oh, good. buy 10 tomes of charisma.

Why should he? They don't stack.
archerpwr
09-02-07, 03:51 PM Wow, more wonderful advice. Create a 100 day ritual for a spell that gets negated by the first spellcaster you face, because as a permanent (yes, thats right, permanent, not permanant) spell it is subject to not only disjunction but also high bonus dispels (using the dispel seed). If you have to do something like that make it permanent (x5) then instantaneous (x2). At that point though its not going to grant a very high bonus. The better option is a everyday buff that grants say a +20 sacred bonus with a 10 minute casting time.
Your spelling-fu is greater than mine.

On the other hand you could do like archerpwr says and not cast 95% of the spells in the PhB.

I'll see if I can dig out a 30th or 40th level spellcaster.

Note: I would never create a spell granting a large bonus to ability scores, as I confirm to Dicefreaks ability score caps, and further such spells are the ultimate cheese of the epic spellcasting system.

This is all solid advice.
BillTheManiac
09-02-07, 04:08 PM Note: I would never create a spell granting a large bonus to ability scores, as I confirm to Dicefreaks ability score caps, and further such spells are the ultimate cheese of the epic spellcasting system.

If all the cheese in the epic spellcasting system was formed into a cheesewheel, Pun-Pun wouldn't be able to lift it.

I thought the ultimate cheese was Summon Couatl, Permanent, once/day for 1 year on your fast time demiplane.
ZiggZagg
09-02-07, 09:15 PM I don't normally recommend direct damage (epic foes tend to just have too much hp to make blasting worthwhile)

Really? I have a combo right now that can do about 1140 points of damage, being 380 points from 3 different elements, as a range touch or a cone.

And a guy that is creating a character like mine is using a Psion that can do like I believe he said about 5,000 points of cold damage, with an ability that it does half damage to creatures that even have cold immunity. The only way around it is Cold Subtype. I realize that usually big death spells and stuff are more effecient, but I wouldn't say direct damage is worthless at this level.
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-02-07, 09:17 PM Except that most of these monsters have high SR, immunity to multiple forms of energy or at least resistence, and oodles of HP. What exactly is your magnificant combo?
ZiggZagg
09-02-07, 09:22 PM Well, I wouldn't call it magnificent, but it works sometimes LoL. It is basically use my swift action to cast a Admixtured for of Breath Weapon Admixture (so it is admixtured twice) and then twin and Maximize it. That way I have calculated it, it is a 13th level spell, since I have Improved Metamagic twice (or whatever feat lowers the cost of metamagic) plus the Metamagic Specialist, if it matters, ability which allows me to use metamagic feats without it taking a full round.

Granted, depending on the DM, it wouldn't work quite right since it requires two uses of my breath weapon, but it is part of the spell, so it can get used twice and be ok LoL
ZiggZagg
09-02-07, 09:24 PM Plus the SR can be overcome with other spells (2 come mind that I found, one that lowers their SR by 10 and one that gives you a +10 caster level check to overcome it, effectively a +20), certain immunities can be overcome (like cold immunity, using a spell from Frostburn I believe that takes it away for a short time) and nothing is going to take 500 or more damage and not feel it, even with 2-3,000 hp. Plus, like I said, it isn't great, but it works. My version of Momenti Mori, which is basically the same just a lower DC to cast, is much more preferred :D
Aluroon
09-02-07, 10:14 PM Um... Why not just sorcerer40? You'd be more powerful overall.
runestar
09-02-07, 10:27 PM Um... Why not just sorcerer40? You'd be more powerful overall.

Unless you are really hung up on familiar progression, you would be better off prcing off ASAP, since sorcs have no other class features, so there is really little incentive to stay past sorc6.

For example, a sorc6/incantatrix10/archmage4/epic incantatrix11-30 grants just as many bonus feats as sorc40, but has much more options at his disposal.
Aluroon
09-02-07, 11:55 PM Unless you are really hung up on familiar progression, you would be better off prcing off ASAP, since sorcs have no other class features, so there is really little incentive to stay past sorc6.

For example, a sorc6/incantatrix10/archmage4/epic incantatrix11-30 grants just as many bonus feats as sorc40, but has much more options at his disposal.

Thats because the Incantatrix is broken. More bonus feats then a Wizard, an epic bonus feat, and instant metamagic, along with the other lesser benefits, with easy prerequisites. I won't even go into how crazy the epic progression is.

Any sane prestige class's bonus progression is inferior to a base class's. Regardless either of our builds is superior to his current build.
runestar
09-03-07, 01:29 AM I take it you haven't seen the hathran epic progression, have you? It grants a bonus epic feat every other lv (same as a fighter)...:cool:
Aluroon
09-03-07, 01:56 AM I take it you haven't seen the hathran epic progression, have you? It grants a bonus epic feat every other lv (same as a fighter)...:cool:

Yes, the same as most of the epic progressions from that book. They are all equally crappy.
ZiggZagg
09-04-07, 09:18 PM What was your build Aluroon? I must have missed it. I am quite open to suggestions for future reference as to how to build Sorcerers. Just as long as it isn't straight Sorcerer. I hate all those dead levels. With my build, I only have like 27 or 28 effective Sorcerer Class Levels. The others come from the racial sorcerer levels from the dragon. This allowed me to go into the Hidecarved, which gave me 2 additional energy immunities that instead of relying on magic to protect me from them, along with much better DR, some better SR (though my SR is still pitiful at this level), and immunity to poison which is kinda cool.
Kihon
09-05-07, 10:03 AM IMHO high level Sorcerer/Wizard types are a bit more complicated to play, but are infintely more flexible in what they can do with their epic spells. The rules allow you to come up with spells that can do 'whatever' - use the right seeds, come up with an explaination for your DM, and the coin to make it - and bada bing, bada boom - you have your own Epic spell. This makes epic level casters both more fun to play, but more work also. Enjoy... (I do)!
Senevri
09-07-07, 07:09 PM Improved Spell Capacity, Cosmic Descryer, Improved Metamagic, Permanent Emanation, Multispell...

If you can go high enough with ISC, do consider getting quicken, silent, still to get some nice high-level spell as an innate spell. Timestop is nice, for an example.

Oh, and Spell Stowaway ( timestop )
...so many things to pick...
ZiggZagg
09-09-07, 02:12 AM Well, thanks for all the input. I just ran the character tonight for a little while, and he decimated a Devastation Vermin in 3 rounds. Granted, he had no way to fight back, but it was fun to "Bring the Rain" like I did LoL. But now my friend is going to stomp me because he is making a gestalt Wizard 40/ Paragon Demilich....so yeah, I can't hurt him except with tooth and claw...oh well, I will find a way to beat him :D Thanks again for all the advice.
Kyuketsukiouji
09-10-07, 09:49 PM Whoever was talking about permanent enhancement bonus spells obviously needs to crack the books again.

Start with the bit that says "If you apply a factor to make the duration permanent, the bonus must be an inherent bonus, and the maximum inherent bonus allowed is +5."
Bloodsoul
09-10-07, 10:46 PM I suppose this could be well argued as either a pro or con, but considering her high Charisma I gave my evil Sorcerer two levels of Blackguard; so although I used up three Feat slots on Feats she'll probably never use, atleast I got to add her Charisma bonus to her saves.

Again, it can be deemed a pro or a con, depending on how you look at it.
vindictous
10-07-07, 10:28 AM well you could just increase it's duration by 100% a couple of times just don't give it a backlash...

BTW it says backlash is dealt every round for a spell that has a duration longer than instantaneous, so wouldn't that mean a permenent affect would deal backlash damage till the creature died, then quite possible continue it the caster was raised?
rob_douglas
10-07-07, 12:44 PM Yes, yes it does....

ROB
vindictous
10-07-07, 01:50 PM LOL the epic spell " epic spell reflection" deals 20d6 damage for the rest of your natural life
Tshern
10-07-07, 03:12 PM Improved Spell Capacity, Cosmic Descryer, Improved Metamagic, Permanent Emanation, Multispell...

If you can go high enough with ISC, do consider getting quicken, silent, still to get some nice high-level spell as an innate spell. Timestop is nice, for an example.

Oh, and Spell Stowaway ( timestop )
...so many things to pick...
What's the big deal with Cosmic Descryer? People talk about how it can increase caster level by hundreds, but I just don't get it...
rob_douglas
10-10-07, 05:23 PM At 7th level, you get Cosmic Connection, which allows you to sacrifice 5 hit points for +1 caster level, with no limit. So you sacrifice 500 hp for +100 to caster level, then cast Blasphemy, etc. for instant death to anything with less than 110 hit dice - probably more. (barring spell immunity and range issues).

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 07:53 PM	Hey everyone. I just got done creating a 40th level Sorcerer. Now I am not the greatest with spellcasters to begin with, let alone epic ones. My spell save DC's cap at 43 for 9th level spells...that sux. My Charisma is currently 58, so that gives me 24, and I have no idea how to raise that any higher. It already has a +18 enhancement bonus and a +4 Inherent bonus. How can I get my spells to be harder to resist? I would take feats, but the build I have is very feat intensive and will be very difficult to work around with, plus I am pulling spells from a few different schools, so it wouldn't make much sense to take Spell Focus a bunch of times. The only other tactic I have is casting Devil's Ego, which is a +4 profane bonus, and then intensifying it, for like a +10 or so bonus. Any ideas or other tricks?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-01-07, 07:59 PM	Well, there are always insight bonuses to Charisma, and epic spells that increase it(if you don't have that already). Sacred/profane works too.
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 08:01 PM	I know these bonuses exist, but where can I find them. As for Epic Spells, I have a few already, and they have been very expensive and I cannot really afford anymore. So I am really looking for items or maybe feats to help with this. I just can't find any items, spells, or anything that give those other types of bonuses
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-01-07, 08:10 PM	You have to make them yourself. That is, they aren't in any puplished sources.(To my knowledge anyway)
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 08:36 PM	Well that sux. I am not that good at making new magic items. Maybe I will have to try to make some new spells or something then
Caros 09-01-07, 08:37 PM	Insight bonuses are granted by the books from the DMG they cap at +5. Don't use wish ^_^;
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-01-07, 08:39 PM	Well that sux. I am not that good at making new magic items. Maybe I will have to try to make some new spells or something then Dude, it's as simple as "Headband of Insightful Intelligence +6, 90.000gp" or something. It's not hard. Just go look at the tables in the back of the DMG, use them as guidelines and fiddle with the price until you are satisfied.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-01-07, 08:40 PM	Insight bonuses are granted by the books from the DMG they cap at +5. Don't use wish ^_^; Those are Inherent actually.
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 08:45 PM	I'll have to check those tables out. I never really messed with them before. Do the bonuses still cap at +6 if they are under epic for those weirder bonuses, like insight and Profane? (I have to use profane, since my character is evil)
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-01-07, 08:49 PM	I'll have to check those tables out. I never really messed with them before. Do the bonuses still cap at +6 if they are under epic for those weirder bonuses, like insight and Profane? (I have to use profane, since my character is evil) I would think so yes. IIRC one of the criterion for bonuses becoming priced as epic is if they grant a bonus to an ability higher then +6.
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 09:00 PM	I thought so. So I need to find the price to create an item with an insight and profane bonus and to see what it would be up to +6 and beyond +6. Cool
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-01-07, 09:13 PM	Or just make an epic spell that grants a huge bonus. That seems to be the way to go around here.
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 09:16 PM	Well, if someone has an Epic Spell already made up that does this, it would be greatly appreciated.
archerpwr 09-01-07, 09:29 PM	Well, if someone has an Epic Spell already made up that does this, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to assume that by 40th level you won't die of old age. Fortify seed. Increase enhancement bonus until satisfied. Make permanant by multiplying the DC by 5. Decrease DC to 0 by making it a ritual (epic leadership helps) and/or increasing casting time. Honestly, just don't cast spells that give saves.
runestar 09-01-07, 10:49 PM	At this juncture, you should start concentrating on spells which do not rely on saves, since they will for most part, scale faster than your can boost your dcs. Thus, it becomes an increasingly uphill task.
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 10:56 PM	I Have tried, but all the debuffs I am looking at have saves to them. If anyone knows any good debuffs that don't give saves, I am all ears. On another note, I think my math is wrong. I just created an Epic spell that gives me a +60 Enhancement bonus, permanantly, but the cost is only 735,000 gp. I used the Fortify Seed
archerpwr 09-01-07, 11:29 PM	I Have tried, but all the debuffs I am looking at have saves to them. If anyone knows any good debuffs that don't give saves, I am all ears. Not many on the sorc/wiz list. Kinda why gishes are so effective at this level; there is no save for damage. Check out RotD and dragon magic for sorc spells that are good for their level. Wings of cover and arcane fusion are musts.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-01-07, 11:42 PM	Debuffs are no good at those high levels; enemies are pretty much immune to everything. Focus on buffs (Such as gish characters) and battlefield control, especially saveless stuff like Web.
ZiggZagg 09-01-07, 11:50 PM	What is Arcane Fusion?
ZiggZagg 09-02-07, 12:01 AM	Never mind, I found it in Complete Mage
BillTheManiac 09-02-07, 07:48 AM	No one mentioned Improved Spell Capacity? Take 1 per 2 levels and that will help significantly.
runestar 09-02-07, 10:05 AM	Hoping to boost your dcs via of combination if ISC and improved heighten is perhaps the most inefficient method there is. For starters, enervation has no save. If your foe is not protected from negative energy, try using metamicked enervations to weaken them for your fighters. Take improved metamagic to make this process cheaper. For example, with 2 improved metamagics, a repeating twinned maximized enervation just uses a 8th lv slot and drains 8 lvs each round, for a total of 16 negative lvs over 2 rounds. Limited wish can lower a foe's save by 7. I don't normally recommend direct damage (epic foes tend to just have too much hp to make blasting worthwhile), but orb spells might work in a pinch, since they don't allow saves/sr. Take enhance spell to raise their damage cap, and mix in other metamagic feats like twin and intensify spell. As always, take as many improved metamagic as you can muster.
Aluroon 09-02-07, 12:10 PM	I don't normally recommend direct damage (epic foes tend to just have too much hp to make blasting worthwhile), but orb spells might work in a pinch, since they don't allow saves/sr. Take enhance spell to raise their damage cap, and mix in other metamagic feats like twin and intensify spell. As always, take as many improved metamagic as you can muster. Yeh, because when your opponents Reflect based spell or Infinite Deflection/Reflection are triggered its fun! Fortify seed. Increase enhancement bonus until satisfied. Make permanant by multiplying the DC by 5. Decrease DC to 0 by making it a ritual (epic leadership helps) and/or increasing casting time. Honestly, just don't cast spells that give saves. Wow, more wonderful advice. Create a 100 day ritual for a spell that gets negated by the first spellcaster you face, because as a permanent (yes, thats right, permanent, not permanant) spell it is subject to not only disjunction but also high bonus dispels (using the dispel seed). If you have to do something like that make it permanent (x5) then instantaneous (x2). At that point though its not going to grant a very high bonus. The better option is a everyday buff that grants say a +20 sacred bonus with a 10 minute casting time. On the other hand you could do like archerpwr says and not cast 95% of the spells in the PhB. I'll see if I can dig out a 30th or 40th level spellcaster. Note: I would never create a spell granting a large bonus to ability scores, as I confirm to Dicefreaks ability score caps, and further such spells are the ultimate cheese of the epic spellcasting system.
RealSorceror 09-02-07, 02:04 PM	Wait, you just took straight Sorceror for 40 lvls? Theres no reason to do that, you could have had two or three prestige classes with full casting by now. You shoulda gone into Eldritch Thuerge or Ultimate Magus. Even Archmage woulda been sweet.
ZiggZagg 09-02-07, 02:18 PM	I'm not good at Sorcerers, but I'm not that bad. I only have five levels of Sorcerer. If it helps, the build is Sorcerer 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Hidecarved Dragon 12/Deep Breath Dracomage 18//Red Dragon 40. The last PrC is a homebrew, and I was going to post it, but the forums didn't seem to take well to the formatting, and I didn't feel like taking the time to fix that. I did end up creating a spell that granted a +60 enhancement. My will save is pretty high, thanks to Force of Personality, and the way I read the reflect seed, I bounce back all targeted and area spell effects, so dispels might not work on me at all. Depends on how the DM rules it
arderkrag 09-02-07, 03:01 PM	40th level? have 40th level cash? Oh, good. buy 10 tomes of charisma.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-02-07, 03:24 PM	40th level? have 40th level cash? Oh, good. buy 10 tomes of charisma. Why should he? They don't stack.
archerpwr 09-02-07, 03:51 PM	Wow, more wonderful advice. Create a 100 day ritual for a spell that gets negated by the first spellcaster you face, because as a permanent (yes, thats right, permanent, not permanant) spell it is subject to not only disjunction but also high bonus dispels (using the dispel seed). If you have to do something like that make it permanent (x5) then instantaneous (x2). At that point though its not going to grant a very high bonus. The better option is a everyday buff that grants say a +20 sacred bonus with a 10 minute casting time. Your spelling-fu is greater than mine. On the other hand you could do like archerpwr says and not cast 95% of the spells in the PhB. I'll see if I can dig out a 30th or 40th level spellcaster. Note: I would never create a spell granting a large bonus to ability scores, as I confirm to Dicefreaks ability score caps, and further such spells are the ultimate cheese of the epic spellcasting system. This is all solid advice.
BillTheManiac 09-02-07, 04:08 PM	Note: I would never create a spell granting a large bonus to ability scores, as I confirm to Dicefreaks ability score caps, and further such spells are the ultimate cheese of the epic spellcasting system. If all the cheese in the epic spellcasting system was formed into a cheesewheel, Pun-Pun wouldn't be able to lift it. I thought the ultimate cheese was Summon Couatl, Permanent, once/day for 1 year on your fast time demiplane.
ZiggZagg 09-02-07, 09:15 PM	I don't normally recommend direct damage (epic foes tend to just have too much hp to make blasting worthwhile) Really? I have a combo right now that can do about 1140 points of damage, being 380 points from 3 different elements, as a range touch or a cone. And a guy that is creating a character like mine is using a Psion that can do like I believe he said about 5,000 points of cold damage, with an ability that it does half damage to creatures that even have cold immunity. The only way around it is Cold Subtype. I realize that usually big death spells and stuff are more effecient, but I wouldn't say direct damage is worthless at this level.
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-02-07, 09:17 PM	Except that most of these monsters have high SR, immunity to multiple forms of energy or at least resistence, and oodles of HP. What exactly is your magnificant combo?
ZiggZagg 09-02-07, 09:22 PM	Well, I wouldn't call it magnificent, but it works sometimes LoL. It is basically use my swift action to cast a Admixtured for of Breath Weapon Admixture (so it is admixtured twice) and then twin and Maximize it. That way I have calculated it, it is a 13th level spell, since I have Improved Metamagic twice (or whatever feat lowers the cost of metamagic) plus the Metamagic Specialist, if it matters, ability which allows me to use metamagic feats without it taking a full round. Granted, depending on the DM, it wouldn't work quite right since it requires two uses of my breath weapon, but it is part of the spell, so it can get used twice and be ok LoL
ZiggZagg 09-02-07, 09:24 PM	Plus the SR can be overcome with other spells (2 come mind that I found, one that lowers their SR by 10 and one that gives you a +10 caster level check to overcome it, effectively a +20), certain immunities can be overcome (like cold immunity, using a spell from Frostburn I believe that takes it away for a short time) and nothing is going to take 500 or more damage and not feel it, even with 2-3,000 hp. Plus, like I said, it isn't great, but it works. My version of Momenti Mori, which is basically the same just a lower DC to cast, is much more preferred :D
Aluroon 09-02-07, 10:14 PM	Um... Why not just sorcerer40? You'd be more powerful overall.
runestar 09-02-07, 10:27 PM	Um... Why not just sorcerer40? You'd be more powerful overall. Unless you are really hung up on familiar progression, you would be better off prcing off ASAP, since sorcs have no other class features, so there is really little incentive to stay past sorc6. For example, a sorc6/incantatrix10/archmage4/epic incantatrix11-30 grants just as many bonus feats as sorc40, but has much more options at his disposal.
Aluroon 09-02-07, 11:55 PM	Unless you are really hung up on familiar progression, you would be better off prcing off ASAP, since sorcs have no other class features, so there is really little incentive to stay past sorc6. For example, a sorc6/incantatrix10/archmage4/epic incantatrix11-30 grants just as many bonus feats as sorc40, but has much more options at his disposal. Thats because the Incantatrix is broken. More bonus feats then a Wizard, an epic bonus feat, and instant metamagic, along with the other lesser benefits, with easy prerequisites. I won't even go into how crazy the epic progression is. Any sane prestige class's bonus progression is inferior to a base class's. Regardless either of our builds is superior to his current build.
runestar 09-03-07, 01:29 AM	I take it you haven't seen the hathran epic progression, have you? It grants a bonus epic feat every other lv (same as a fighter)...:cool:
Aluroon 09-03-07, 01:56 AM	I take it you haven't seen the hathran epic progression, have you? It grants a bonus epic feat every other lv (same as a fighter)...:cool: Yes, the same as most of the epic progressions from that book. They are all equally crappy.
ZiggZagg 09-04-07, 09:18 PM	What was your build Aluroon? I must have missed it. I am quite open to suggestions for future reference as to how to build Sorcerers. Just as long as it isn't straight Sorcerer. I hate all those dead levels. With my build, I only have like 27 or 28 effective Sorcerer Class Levels. The others come from the racial sorcerer levels from the dragon. This allowed me to go into the Hidecarved, which gave me 2 additional energy immunities that instead of relying on magic to protect me from them, along with much better DR, some better SR (though my SR is still pitiful at this level), and immunity to poison which is kinda cool.
Kihon 09-05-07, 10:03 AM	IMHO high level Sorcerer/Wizard types are a bit more complicated to play, but are infintely more flexible in what they can do with their epic spells. The rules allow you to come up with spells that can do 'whatever' - use the right seeds, come up with an explaination for your DM, and the coin to make it - and bada bing, bada boom - you have your own Epic spell. This makes epic level casters both more fun to play, but more work also. Enjoy... (I do)!
Senevri 09-07-07, 07:09 PM	Improved Spell Capacity, Cosmic Descryer, Improved Metamagic, Permanent Emanation, Multispell... If you can go high enough with ISC, do consider getting quicken, silent, still to get some nice high-level spell as an innate spell. Timestop is nice, for an example. Oh, and Spell Stowaway ( timestop ) ...so many things to pick...
ZiggZagg 09-09-07, 02:12 AM	Well, thanks for all the input. I just ran the character tonight for a little while, and he decimated a Devastation Vermin in 3 rounds. Granted, he had no way to fight back, but it was fun to "Bring the Rain" like I did LoL. But now my friend is going to stomp me because he is making a gestalt Wizard 40/ Paragon Demilich....so yeah, I can't hurt him except with tooth and claw...oh well, I will find a way to beat him :D Thanks again for all the advice.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 09:49 PM	Whoever was talking about permanent enhancement bonus spells obviously needs to crack the books again. Start with the bit that says "If you apply a factor to make the duration permanent, the bonus must be an inherent bonus, and the maximum inherent bonus allowed is +5."
Bloodsoul 09-10-07, 10:46 PM	I suppose this could be well argued as either a pro or con, but considering her high Charisma I gave my evil Sorcerer two levels of Blackguard; so although I used up three Feat slots on Feats she'll probably never use, atleast I got to add her Charisma bonus to her saves. Again, it can be deemed a pro or a con, depending on how you look at it.
vindictous 10-07-07, 10:28 AM	well you could just increase it's duration by 100% a couple of times just don't give it a backlash... BTW it says backlash is dealt every round for a spell that has a duration longer than instantaneous, so wouldn't that mean a permenent affect would deal backlash damage till the creature died, then quite possible continue it the caster was raised?
rob_douglas 10-07-07, 12:44 PM	Yes, yes it does.... ROB
vindictous 10-07-07, 01:50 PM	LOL the epic spell " epic spell reflection" deals 20d6 damage for the rest of your natural life
Tshern 10-07-07, 03:12 PM	Improved Spell Capacity, Cosmic Descryer, Improved Metamagic, Permanent Emanation, Multispell... If you can go high enough with ISC, do consider getting quicken, silent, still to get some nice high-level spell as an innate spell. Timestop is nice, for an example. Oh, and Spell Stowaway ( timestop ) ...so many things to pick... What's the big deal with Cosmic Descryer? People talk about how it can increase caster level by hundreds, but I just don't get it...
rob_douglas 10-10-07, 05:23 PM	At 7th level, you get Cosmic Connection, which allows you to sacrifice 5 hit points for +1 caster level, with no limit. So you sacrifice 500 hp for +100 to caster level, then cast Blasphemy, etc. for instant death to anything with less than 110 hit dice - probably more. (barring spell immunity and range issues). ROB