4E to include some epic (30th level) [Archive] - Wizards Community

4E to include some epic (30th level) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rob_douglas
08-16-07, 05:04 PM For those that missed it, 4E was announced today. And it will have some support for epic levels. This will help the 30-level players, and really tick off the 50-100 levelers....

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html

While there are changes in play (such as incorporating "epic-level play," with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as "evolutionary" rather than "revolutionary." Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles. Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier. Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.

I guess we can wait to start discussing it on the merits, but I am sure we all have plenty of opinions regardless.

ROB
Witch
08-16-07, 05:16 PM I would honestly not be surprised to hear that you now need to be 27th level to cast ninth level spells.
archerpwr
08-16-07, 05:36 PM I would honestly not be surprised to hear that you now need to be 27th level to cast ninth level spells.

That's my thought. There is a huge 4E thread on the CO board. People snagged screenshots.
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-16-07, 06:34 PM Wow. This is going to be something. 2 minutes and 30 seconds left on my screen...

EDIT: Server crash aside...I hope they get level 31+ play right this time. They way they say it, it sounds like the system won't scale. Also, they seem to really like Wayne Reynold's stuff.
summerstar
08-16-07, 11:40 PM ..I hope they get level 31+ play right this time. They way they say it, it sounds like the system won't scale.

Yes, I have a bad feeling that our epic fix is not going to be forthcoming.

Regards,
Summerstar
runestar
08-17-07, 12:18 AM They can't be serious...
Aluroon
08-17-07, 12:23 AM They can't be serious...

They are.
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-17-07, 01:06 AM Honestly, Epic play is not my biggest concern. They've screwed it up before, it can always be fixed. In fact, now that I've looked at the site, I actually kind of like what I'm seeing. It has no relation to how Epic play will be, but I'm more optimistic than before.
KRATOS_BLADE_of_SPARTA
08-17-07, 06:00 AM OK, I can't access the site, but am I getting this right? Non-Epic play will be extended by 10 levels? That sounds good to me, it let's us get a tatse of Epic, but because it is CORE it wil be maintained by Wizards rather than abandoned like our beloved EPIC.

I will definately take a look at the 4E SRD, but if it doesn't blow me away, I think I cling to me 3.x books until they fall apart (which won't be that long considering the rather poor manufacture).
Krispieman
08-17-07, 08:56 AM I must admit I'm rather curious as to what kind of Epic support 4e will have. Raising the bar to level 30 for CORE, doesn't necessarily mean that it's 10 levels of Epic. After all, 2nd Ed. went up to level 36 as a standard (or was that 1st.. I forget).

Aside from that, there's the mention of new rules & systems having been tested via Star Wars Sage Edition & Tome of Battle. Now I'm not all that familiar with SW, but I've heard my brother talk about it and he was quite convinced that it simplified things (for the better) and I think most of us have read through ToB once or twice, but neither of these books deal with our Epic issues.

So perhaps we need to contact someone from the R&D dept. or Gamer 0 to address our concerns and offer our assistance in the balancing and creation of any epic rules. The past few years hanging around this board has taught me that we're probably the most qualified (well, some of us anyway) people to judge epic changes.

Kinda lost my trail of thought, but the point I was trying to make (I think) is that I'm afraid level 30 won't be epic, and further rules to advance higher will end up being just as poorly worked out as the current ones.

K-man :cool:
Alias
08-17-07, 11:48 AM I must admit I'm rather curious as to what kind of Epic support 4e will have. Raising the bar to level 30 for CORE, doesn't necessarily mean that it's 10 levels of Epic.
I think what they're doing is taking a page from Monte Cook's AE - that system goes from 1-25, then stops. I have a sneaking suspicion that's what WotC will do, too - very few groups play past 30th level because, as we all know, the system starts to fall apart after that, so they simply scaled it to the maximum playable level. I'll bet money there won't be an "epic" - they've already shown they don't know how to do it. Depending on how the system works, some third party might be able to cobble together some epic stuff, though.

After all, 2nd Ed. went up to level 36 as a standard (or was that 1st.. I forget).
Nah, that was OD&D. 1E and 2E went to 20th. Expert went to like 12th, and then Master went to 20th?, and Immortal took you all the way to 36th.
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-17-07, 12:12 PM I think what they're doing is taking a page from Monte Cook's AE - that system goes from 1-25, then stops. I have a sneaking suspicion that's what WotC will do, too - very few groups play past 30th level because, as we all know, the system starts to fall apart after that, so they simply scaled it to the maximum playable level. I'll bet money there won't be an "epic" - they've already shown they don't know how to do it. Depending on how the system works, some third party might be able to cobble together some epic stuff, though.

I've never played AE, so how does that work?

I don't think having the system stop completely is a good idea. I'd prefer having something like the E6 system; after 30th level, you don't advance in levels, but you can gain stuff through bonus feats or "Epic Abilities", kind of like the wonky system they had in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms book.
NoldorForce
08-17-07, 02:17 PM I've never played AE, so how does that work?Another tier of spells, better class features, improvements on previous capstone class features, and so on. For instance, the akashic's previous capstone ability (in Arcana Unearthed) allowed it to cast any non-exotic* spell of 7th level or lower, once per day. Five more levels allowed it to do this twice per day, along with doing the same thing with a spell of 9th level or lower. And the new capstone is something that allows you to swipe nearly any class feature for a day. (You can't gain spellcasting or class abilities gained at 21st+ level.)
Upper_Krust
08-17-07, 02:40 PM Hey guys! :)

Cool news about 4th Edition going to 30th! Cooler news that Orcus appears to be in the Monster Manual!

As for epic gaming (if the term epic still applies now) I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

WotC didn't fully embrace epic gaming last time around, its possible (as some here have already said) that this increase to 30th-level will mean we won't get Epic Rules. But personally I don't think thats going to be the case. I think we will get a book that deals with 30th+ level gaming from WotC. Although you wonder if WotC will make that a priority release for 2008*?

*They have said there will be 8 (4E) books released in 2008 (presumably one per month).

As for third party 4th Edition 'Epic' material...who knows. ;)
Tequila_Sunrise
08-17-07, 03:19 PM I was starting to think that I was the only one to notice the Orcus thing.

I just hope that raising the bar by 10 levels means that they've also thrown out the idea of capstone abilities and abilities that awkwardly end at a random level. I hate certain levels being more 'special' than other levels.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
08-17-07, 04:47 PM I was starting to think that I was the only one to notice the Orcus thing.

Hardly. I saw it too. Maybe they will include demon lords and such in the MM this time around?
Tequila_Sunrise
08-17-07, 05:21 PM I think specific monsters are best left to supplemental books. Though it would be weird to put Orcus on the cover without actually statting him out in the book.
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-17-07, 07:20 PM Orcus in the MM? That can't be good. Sounds like they're going to the make the archfiends big monsters again.
concerro
08-17-07, 07:31 PM I never saw anything special about an epic character other than the title. If a character is going to be called epic then they should have a sizeable advantage over a 20 level character even if they are only one level apart. They could have done something like make you earn 2 or 3 times the nunber of XP to go to 21. That way even though the level difference is 1 it will mean something and the xp will demonstrate(there is a better word, but I can't think of it) what the character went through to get that powerful.

I want to describe the ascension to epic levels better, but I think you get my point. I hope they do something other than say you have played the same character for a long time and did not die. You get to be epic now.

I guess I am saying i don't care what level is epic, but I want it to be more than a title, and the ability to use weapons with a matching title.
KRATOS_BLADE_of_SPARTA
08-18-07, 12:59 AM I would like to see Non-Epic go from 1st thru to 30th Level, then have Epic go from 31st thru to 60th Level, then have Divine go from 60th+

1st thru to 10th level, would be "low" Level, 11th thru to 20th Level would be "Medium" Level, and 21st thru to 30th would be "High" Level.

I think having to earn 30,000 XP (Or the 4E equivalent) should be long enough for a 30th Level PC to do something "Epic" and "Ascend" to the next level of Power.

But who knows, perhaps there won't even be any XP? (I doubt it, but again, who knows?)
archerpwr
08-18-07, 01:02 AM Check out post 184 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13456334)

I think a 20 level base is staying. 21+ sounds like epic.
caeruleus
08-19-07, 04:25 AM This post (http://forums.gleemax.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13457928) says the following:

Level division:
1-10 Heroic- foes are orcs and ogres, some giants, small dragons. Adventures tend to be local
11-20 Paragon- on par with the current low to mid teens right now. Bigger threats are faced that might threaten a kingdom
21-30 Epic- World or Planar threats.
The goal is to have the levels play in a similar manner- they don't want a 25th character overwhelmed with 80 abilities. The main differences should be in the story, not how they play.

Nah, that was OD&D. 1E and 2E went to 20th. Expert went to like 12th, and then Master went to 20th?, and Immortal took you all the way to 36th.

Basic: 1-3
Expert: 4-14
Companion: 15-25
Masters: 26-36
Immortals: a very different game, with its own level sytem
:)
bluemage55
08-19-07, 07:13 AM WotC didn't fully embrace epic gaming last time around, its possible (as some here have already said) that this increase to 30th-level will mean we won't get Epic Rules. But personally I don't think thats going to be the case. I think we will get a book that deals with 30th+ level gaming from WotC.

QFT.

I suspect that the new "standard" game is 1st-30th level.

Levels beyond 30 would be the equivalent of 3.5 "epic", the point at which you will be bringing in the 4.0 version of the ELH or the Master Set/Immortal Set.
BillTheManiac
08-19-07, 09:56 AM QFT.

I suspect that the new "standard" game is 1st-30th level.

Levels beyond 30 would be the equivalent of 3.5 "epic", the point at which you will be bringing in the 4.0 version of the ELH or the Master Set/Immortal Set.

I think it was confirmed somewhere that that is incorrect. After all they would have to fundamentally change the d20 system. A +15 gap in BAB between warriors and casters would be a little icky.
bluemage55
08-19-07, 10:18 AM I think it was confirmed somewhere that that is incorrect. After all they would have to fundamentally change the d20 system. A +15 gap in BAB between warriors and casters would be a little icky.

It has not been confirmed in any of the sources I have checked.

And having Epic BAB after 30th instead of 20th would not be a fundamental change to the d20 system.
BillTheManiac
08-19-07, 10:25 AM I'm sure you know the reason epic BAB exists.

The difference between the different BAB levels would grow too large. As I said, a +15 is the difference between hits 90% of the time and misses 85% of the time. Which is way too huge.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-19-07, 11:13 AM If 4th edition leaves out epic BAB, that'll be one more reason to make the switch and one less thing for me to house rule.
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-19-07, 11:26 AM I'm sure you know the reason epic BAB exists.

The difference between the different BAB levels would grow too large. As I said, a +15 is the difference between hits 90% of the time and misses 85% of the time. Which is way too huge.

Characters with low BAB aren't supposed to be in combat in the first place. Missing 85% of the time with a physical attack doesn't matter for a spellcaster. I too welcome the revision of the wierd system.
Witch
08-19-07, 01:39 PM I'm sure you know the reason epic BAB exists.

The difference between the different BAB levels would grow too large. As I said, a +15 is the difference between hits 90% of the time and misses 85% of the time. Which is way too huge.
No, it's the difference between being able to power attack for much and not being able to power attack for much.
bluemage55
08-19-07, 04:43 PM Characters with low BAB aren't supposed to be in combat in the first place. Missing 85% of the time with a physical attack doesn't matter for a spellcaster. I too welcome the revision of the wierd system.

Due to infinite scaling, it also means that medium BAB characters will not be able to fight effectively at sufficiently high levels.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-19-07, 11:11 PM Well hopefully they'll scale AC better in 4E so that a 30th level character with +22 BAB can hit at least half the time.
runestar
08-20-07, 01:31 AM Well hopefully they'll scale AC better in 4E so that a 30th level character with +22 BAB can hit at least half the time.

Care to elaborate?
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-20-07, 01:50 AM No one short of a really buff fighter or anyone with a Brilliant weapon can hit most monster ACs. I want to see everyone have the same progression of BAB, so the monsters don't hit every time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rob_douglas 08-16-07, 05:04 PM	For those that missed it, 4E was announced today. And it will have some support for epic levels. This will help the 30-level players, and really tick off the 50-100 levelers.... http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html While there are changes in play (such as incorporating "epic-level play," with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as "evolutionary" rather than "revolutionary." Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles. Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier. Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords. I guess we can wait to start discussing it on the merits, but I am sure we all have plenty of opinions regardless. ROB
Witch 08-16-07, 05:16 PM	I would honestly not be surprised to hear that you now need to be 27th level to cast ninth level spells.
archerpwr 08-16-07, 05:36 PM	I would honestly not be surprised to hear that you now need to be 27th level to cast ninth level spells. That's my thought. There is a huge 4E thread on the CO board. People snagged screenshots.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-16-07, 06:34 PM	Wow. This is going to be something. 2 minutes and 30 seconds left on my screen... EDIT: Server crash aside...I hope they get level 31+ play right this time. They way they say it, it sounds like the system won't scale. Also, they seem to really like Wayne Reynold's stuff.
summerstar 08-16-07, 11:40 PM	..I hope they get level 31+ play right this time. They way they say it, it sounds like the system won't scale. Yes, I have a bad feeling that our epic fix is not going to be forthcoming. Regards, Summerstar
runestar 08-17-07, 12:18 AM	They can't be serious...
Aluroon 08-17-07, 12:23 AM	They can't be serious... They are.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-17-07, 01:06 AM	Honestly, Epic play is not my biggest concern. They've screwed it up before, it can always be fixed. In fact, now that I've looked at the site, I actually kind of like what I'm seeing. It has no relation to how Epic play will be, but I'm more optimistic than before.
KRATOS_BLADE_of_SPARTA 08-17-07, 06:00 AM	OK, I can't access the site, but am I getting this right? Non-Epic play will be extended by 10 levels? That sounds good to me, it let's us get a tatse of Epic, but because it is CORE it wil be maintained by Wizards rather than abandoned like our beloved EPIC. I will definately take a look at the 4E SRD, but if it doesn't blow me away, I think I cling to me 3.x books until they fall apart (which won't be that long considering the rather poor manufacture).
Krispieman 08-17-07, 08:56 AM	I must admit I'm rather curious as to what kind of Epic support 4e will have. Raising the bar to level 30 for CORE, doesn't necessarily mean that it's 10 levels of Epic. After all, 2nd Ed. went up to level 36 as a standard (or was that 1st.. I forget). Aside from that, there's the mention of new rules & systems having been tested via Star Wars Sage Edition & Tome of Battle. Now I'm not all that familiar with SW, but I've heard my brother talk about it and he was quite convinced that it simplified things (for the better) and I think most of us have read through ToB once or twice, but neither of these books deal with our Epic issues. So perhaps we need to contact someone from the R&D dept. or Gamer 0 to address our concerns and offer our assistance in the balancing and creation of any epic rules. The past few years hanging around this board has taught me that we're probably the most qualified (well, some of us anyway) people to judge epic changes. Kinda lost my trail of thought, but the point I was trying to make (I think) is that I'm afraid level 30 won't be epic, and further rules to advance higher will end up being just as poorly worked out as the current ones. K-man :cool:
Alias 08-17-07, 11:48 AM	I must admit I'm rather curious as to what kind of Epic support 4e will have. Raising the bar to level 30 for CORE, doesn't necessarily mean that it's 10 levels of Epic. I think what they're doing is taking a page from Monte Cook's AE - that system goes from 1-25, then stops. I have a sneaking suspicion that's what WotC will do, too - very few groups play past 30th level because, as we all know, the system starts to fall apart after that, so they simply scaled it to the maximum playable level. I'll bet money there won't be an "epic" - they've already shown they don't know how to do it. Depending on how the system works, some third party might be able to cobble together some epic stuff, though. After all, 2nd Ed. went up to level 36 as a standard (or was that 1st.. I forget). Nah, that was OD&D. 1E and 2E went to 20th. Expert went to like 12th, and then Master went to 20th?, and Immortal took you all the way to 36th.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-17-07, 12:12 PM	I think what they're doing is taking a page from Monte Cook's AE - that system goes from 1-25, then stops. I have a sneaking suspicion that's what WotC will do, too - very few groups play past 30th level because, as we all know, the system starts to fall apart after that, so they simply scaled it to the maximum playable level. I'll bet money there won't be an "epic" - they've already shown they don't know how to do it. Depending on how the system works, some third party might be able to cobble together some epic stuff, though. I've never played AE, so how does that work? I don't think having the system stop completely is a good idea. I'd prefer having something like the E6 system; after 30th level, you don't advance in levels, but you can gain stuff through bonus feats or "Epic Abilities", kind of like the wonky system they had in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms book.
NoldorForce 08-17-07, 02:17 PM	I've never played AE, so how does that work?Another tier of spells, better class features, improvements on previous capstone class features, and so on. For instance, the akashic's previous capstone ability (in Arcana Unearthed) allowed it to cast any non-exotic* spell of 7th level or lower, once per day. Five more levels allowed it to do this twice per day, along with doing the same thing with a spell of 9th level or lower. And the new capstone is something that allows you to swipe nearly any class feature for a day. (You can't gain spellcasting or class abilities gained at 21st+ level.)
Upper_Krust 08-17-07, 02:40 PM	Hey guys! :) Cool news about 4th Edition going to 30th! Cooler news that Orcus appears to be in the Monster Manual! As for epic gaming (if the term epic still applies now) I suppose we'll have to wait and see. WotC didn't fully embrace epic gaming last time around, its possible (as some here have already said) that this increase to 30th-level will mean we won't get Epic Rules. But personally I don't think thats going to be the case. I think we will get a book that deals with 30th+ level gaming from WotC. Although you wonder if WotC will make that a priority release for 2008? They have said there will be 8 (4E) books released in 2008 (presumably one per month). As for third party 4th Edition 'Epic' material...who knows. ;)
Tequila_Sunrise 08-17-07, 03:19 PM	I was starting to think that I was the only one to notice the Orcus thing. I just hope that raising the bar by 10 levels means that they've also thrown out the idea of capstone abilities and abilities that awkwardly end at a random level. I hate certain levels being more 'special' than other levels.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 08-17-07, 04:47 PM	I was starting to think that I was the only one to notice the Orcus thing. Hardly. I saw it too. Maybe they will include demon lords and such in the MM this time around?
Tequila_Sunrise 08-17-07, 05:21 PM	I think specific monsters are best left to supplemental books. Though it would be weird to put Orcus on the cover without actually statting him out in the book.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-17-07, 07:20 PM	Orcus in the MM? That can't be good. Sounds like they're going to the make the archfiends big monsters again.
concerro 08-17-07, 07:31 PM	I never saw anything special about an epic character other than the title. If a character is going to be called epic then they should have a sizeable advantage over a 20 level character even if they are only one level apart. They could have done something like make you earn 2 or 3 times the nunber of XP to go to 21. That way even though the level difference is 1 it will mean something and the xp will demonstrate(there is a better word, but I can't think of it) what the character went through to get that powerful. I want to describe the ascension to epic levels better, but I think you get my point. I hope they do something other than say you have played the same character for a long time and did not die. You get to be epic now. I guess I am saying i don't care what level is epic, but I want it to be more than a title, and the ability to use weapons with a matching title.
KRATOS_BLADE_of_SPARTA 08-18-07, 12:59 AM	I would like to see Non-Epic go from 1st thru to 30th Level, then have Epic go from 31st thru to 60th Level, then have Divine go from 60th+ 1st thru to 10th level, would be "low" Level, 11th thru to 20th Level would be "Medium" Level, and 21st thru to 30th would be "High" Level. I think having to earn 30,000 XP (Or the 4E equivalent) should be long enough for a 30th Level PC to do something "Epic" and "Ascend" to the next level of Power. But who knows, perhaps there won't even be any XP? (I doubt it, but again, who knows?)
archerpwr 08-18-07, 01:02 AM	Check out post 184 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13456334) I think a 20 level base is staying. 21+ sounds like epic.
caeruleus 08-19-07, 04:25 AM	This post (http://forums.gleemax.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13457928) says the following: Level division: 1-10 Heroic- foes are orcs and ogres, some giants, small dragons. Adventures tend to be local 11-20 Paragon- on par with the current low to mid teens right now. Bigger threats are faced that might threaten a kingdom 21-30 Epic- World or Planar threats. The goal is to have the levels play in a similar manner- they don't want a 25th character overwhelmed with 80 abilities. The main differences should be in the story, not how they play. Nah, that was OD&D. 1E and 2E went to 20th. Expert went to like 12th, and then Master went to 20th?, and Immortal took you all the way to 36th. Basic: 1-3 Expert: 4-14 Companion: 15-25 Masters: 26-36 Immortals: a very different game, with its own level sytem :)
bluemage55 08-19-07, 07:13 AM	WotC didn't fully embrace epic gaming last time around, its possible (as some here have already said) that this increase to 30th-level will mean we won't get Epic Rules. But personally I don't think thats going to be the case. I think we will get a book that deals with 30th+ level gaming from WotC. QFT. I suspect that the new "standard" game is 1st-30th level. Levels beyond 30 would be the equivalent of 3.5 "epic", the point at which you will be bringing in the 4.0 version of the ELH or the Master Set/Immortal Set.
BillTheManiac 08-19-07, 09:56 AM	QFT. I suspect that the new "standard" game is 1st-30th level. Levels beyond 30 would be the equivalent of 3.5 "epic", the point at which you will be bringing in the 4.0 version of the ELH or the Master Set/Immortal Set. I think it was confirmed somewhere that that is incorrect. After all they would have to fundamentally change the d20 system. A +15 gap in BAB between warriors and casters would be a little icky.
bluemage55 08-19-07, 10:18 AM	I think it was confirmed somewhere that that is incorrect. After all they would have to fundamentally change the d20 system. A +15 gap in BAB between warriors and casters would be a little icky. It has not been confirmed in any of the sources I have checked. And having Epic BAB after 30th instead of 20th would not be a fundamental change to the d20 system.
BillTheManiac 08-19-07, 10:25 AM	I'm sure you know the reason epic BAB exists. The difference between the different BAB levels would grow too large. As I said, a +15 is the difference between hits 90% of the time and misses 85% of the time. Which is way too huge.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-19-07, 11:13 AM	If 4th edition leaves out epic BAB, that'll be one more reason to make the switch and one less thing for me to house rule.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-19-07, 11:26 AM	I'm sure you know the reason epic BAB exists. The difference between the different BAB levels would grow too large. As I said, a +15 is the difference between hits 90% of the time and misses 85% of the time. Which is way too huge. Characters with low BAB aren't supposed to be in combat in the first place. Missing 85% of the time with a physical attack doesn't matter for a spellcaster. I too welcome the revision of the wierd system.
Witch 08-19-07, 01:39 PM	I'm sure you know the reason epic BAB exists. The difference between the different BAB levels would grow too large. As I said, a +15 is the difference between hits 90% of the time and misses 85% of the time. Which is way too huge. No, it's the difference between being able to power attack for much and not being able to power attack for much.
bluemage55 08-19-07, 04:43 PM	Characters with low BAB aren't supposed to be in combat in the first place. Missing 85% of the time with a physical attack doesn't matter for a spellcaster. I too welcome the revision of the wierd system. Due to infinite scaling, it also means that medium BAB characters will not be able to fight effectively at sufficiently high levels.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-19-07, 11:11 PM	Well hopefully they'll scale AC better in 4E so that a 30th level character with +22 BAB can hit at least half the time.
runestar 08-20-07, 01:31 AM	Well hopefully they'll scale AC better in 4E so that a 30th level character with +22 BAB can hit at least half the time. Care to elaborate?
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-20-07, 01:50 AM	No one short of a really buff fighter or anyone with a Brilliant weapon can hit most monster ACs. I want to see everyone have the same progression of BAB, so the monsters don't hit every time.