A unarmed monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

A unarmed monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grandmaster_Kane
05-27-07, 06:11 PM What classes would be best for a total level 55 unarmed monk?

I dont know like any monk classes beside monk and tattoed monk lol
Taeldrin Laesrash
05-27-07, 08:33 PM Monk, I think, scales decently on its own (BTW, monks fight unarmed as a default; no need to put it in the title). Slipping in the Perfected One from Dragon #297 wouldn't hurt also.
NoldorForce
05-27-07, 09:48 PM Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries from Draconomicon for two die size increases on your unarmed strike.

Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion for Constitution to AC.

Cleric or Archivist for spells that apply size increases to your unarmed strike. Not to mention for buffs (especially epic spells) in general.
Keldorn2198
05-27-07, 11:47 PM I would recommend at least 12 fighter levels, to get weapon specialization, greater focus, and greater specialization. If you use PHB2, you should also throw in Blunt Weapon Mastery.

At least half of the 12 fighter levels should be taken BEFORE level 20, as that significantly boosts BAB (more attacks and better hit rolls). Another good choice could be 3 levels of Swashbuckler (from CW). This will give you Finesse and allow you to add Int to damage against anything that can normally be critically hit.

As far as Monk PrC's, most of them just add a different selection of special abilities to the monk, without significantly improving the combat abilities. Whether you want that or not is up to you. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries is an excellent choice, as it directly improves your Unarmed damage and allows you to inflict slashing damage.

The best advice I can give you is pick one chracter concept and stick with it. Don't try to make the monk a tripping grappler that hits real hard. You won't have enough feats to optimize him for multiple specialties. (Unless you decide to make a Mo 20/Ftr 25, and then feats are no problem).
Yodasatomicweed
05-27-07, 11:54 PM Actually, at epic levels your unarmed strikes should be getting treated as slashing weapons, thanks to Keen Strike and Vorpal Strike, so take Slashing Weapon Mastery instead of Blunt Weapon Mastery, assuming such a thing exists. I don't have the book, so I don't know. Taking fighter levels early on also lowers your saves, and taking fighter levels later on allows you to get more epic feats, which is generally good. The BAB may outweigh that, I wouldn't know, but I do know that there are benefits to waiting to pick up fighter levels.
AkaKageWarrior
05-28-07, 03:13 AM ...and taking fighter levels later on allows you to get more epic feats, which is generally good....

not until the fighter class is at least level 20. before that, the fighter bonus feats must not be epic feats!

so take at least so many fighter levels (4) to get an extra attack for BAB 16 at lvl 20.

checkout Oriental Adventures for monk PrCl.

AKW
Yodasatomicweed
05-28-07, 03:46 AM not until the fighter class is at least level 20. before that, the fighter bonus feats must not be epic feats!
I thought the wording in the ELH indicated that when you chose a bonus feat for a class, even if that class was not epic, you could still choose from the bonus feat list for the epic class if your overall character was epic. The wording on that is confusing, but I guess a summary would be something like this:
Overall character level is epic
You gain a bonus feat for a class you are not yet epic in
You can choose a feat from that class's epic bonus feat list because your character is epic.

This seems like a sleezy way to get epic feats, but I believe it's perfectly legal. Is there anyone who knows for sure the ruling on this, or is it just up to individual DM fiat?
AkaKageWarrior
05-28-07, 08:44 AM I thought the wording in the ELH indicated that when you chose a bonus feat for a class, even if that class was not epic, you could still choose from the bonus feat list for the epic class if your overall character was epic.

Nope!

I'm quite sure about it, but don't remember where to find it.

the feat you get every 3 levels from overall character class can be epic, but not feats you get from classes where your class level is below 20.

AKW
rob_douglas
05-28-07, 12:01 PM We have argued this several times. This is the wording that should settle it:
Acquiring Epic Feats
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.
The Fighter class, pre-epic, does not grant "bonus epic feats" - it grants "bonus feats".

Then there is just applying simple logic to it - and noting that granting epic feats to everyone that takes 2 levels of fighter at 20th level is just silly. Certainly there would be no reason for every melee character not to do it.

ROB
kreesteeyan
05-28-07, 12:57 PM Check out page 8 of ELH, Adding a Second Class section, last sentence. It says there you can choose epic bonus feats from the list of bonus feats from the class. Weird thing is that it should be here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#addingaSecondClass) but it is not.
Yodasatomicweed
05-28-07, 01:23 PM Then there is just applying simple logic to it - and noting that granting epic feats to everyone that takes 2 levels of fighter at 20th level is just silly.
I definately agree that it's silly and not quite right, but I thought that it was allowed by the rules. I do remember arguements as well, I just wasn't sure what the final consensus was.
haelduksf
05-28-07, 04:22 PM http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430042

When is my character considered epic?

Okay, this is a complicated question. Being epic comes in stages, like so:

* When your ECL reaches 21, you begin using epic experience tables and epic wealth guidelines.
* When you have 21 total HD, you may begin gaining epic feats.
* When you have 21 character levels, you begin using the epic base attack bonus and save progressions. Note that racial HD are not included in this calculation--they do not use epic attack and save progressions.
* When you have 21 levels in a particular class, you begin using the appropriate epic class progression.
* When you have 20 total HD, including 10 levels in a prestige class, you may begin gaining epic levels in that prestige class.

When the Epic Level Handbook makes statements like "[class] does not [class ability] after 20th level," they are referring to your 20th class level, not your 20th character level. Specific examples of this are spells per day for spellcasters, and unarmed damage for monks.
MagicMouth
05-28-07, 05:28 PM To get back on track... How about the Shadow Sun Ninja from Tome of Battle?

There are also some combo Prestige Classes such as the Enlightened Fist and Fist of Zuoken, these two examples advanced both Monk abilities as well as arcane spellcasting and psionics, respectively. Might be useful.
Grandmaster_Kane
05-28-07, 08:27 PM Ok what monk build would allow me to deal the most damage i the least amount of time
bluemage55
05-28-07, 08:44 PM Ok what monk build would allow me to deal the most damage i the least amount of time

One that involves two-weapon fighting with a greatsword and your unarmed attacks (it is possible to use your unarmed attacks as off-hand even when both hands are full).

If you're only interested in damage, monk is not the right way to go, since you can get the monk unarmed damage increases from an advanced version of the monk's belt (CL 40, 2,080,000 gp, unarmed strike and AC as 20th-level monk).

You would probably be better off going with pure fighter with specialized item selection, to deliver deadly 10-attack diving (x2 damage) Dire Charges from the air.
Millenia
05-28-07, 09:56 PM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm
NoldorForce
05-29-07, 12:04 AM Again, if you're searching for damage, you'll want as many effective size increases as you can get with your unarmed strikes. (I've managed Colossal+6 with a degenerate arena character.) Plus the two die size increases from Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, from the Draconomicon. (This put the character up to 192d6 base damage.)

And find ways to pounce and to multiply damage on a charge. Plus ways to get more attacks with your unarmed strikes.

As above, you don't need many monk levels at all to deal damage as a 20th-level monk; there are a number of items and so forth that increase your effective level.
strenoth
05-29-07, 02:15 AM Don't forget a couple die boost from the Reapin Mauler.

Well, at least, in the original:

http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_reaping_mauler.htm

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grandmaster_Kane 05-27-07, 06:11 PM	What classes would be best for a total level 55 unarmed monk? I dont know like any monk classes beside monk and tattoed monk lol
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-27-07, 08:33 PM	Monk, I think, scales decently on its own (BTW, monks fight unarmed as a default; no need to put it in the title). Slipping in the Perfected One from Dragon #297 wouldn't hurt also.
NoldorForce 05-27-07, 09:48 PM	Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries from Draconomicon for two die size increases on your unarmed strike. Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion for Constitution to AC. Cleric or Archivist for spells that apply size increases to your unarmed strike. Not to mention for buffs (especially epic spells) in general.
Keldorn2198 05-27-07, 11:47 PM	I would recommend at least 12 fighter levels, to get weapon specialization, greater focus, and greater specialization. If you use PHB2, you should also throw in Blunt Weapon Mastery. At least half of the 12 fighter levels should be taken BEFORE level 20, as that significantly boosts BAB (more attacks and better hit rolls). Another good choice could be 3 levels of Swashbuckler (from CW). This will give you Finesse and allow you to add Int to damage against anything that can normally be critically hit. As far as Monk PrC's, most of them just add a different selection of special abilities to the monk, without significantly improving the combat abilities. Whether you want that or not is up to you. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries is an excellent choice, as it directly improves your Unarmed damage and allows you to inflict slashing damage. The best advice I can give you is pick one chracter concept and stick with it. Don't try to make the monk a tripping grappler that hits real hard. You won't have enough feats to optimize him for multiple specialties. (Unless you decide to make a Mo 20/Ftr 25, and then feats are no problem).
Yodasatomicweed 05-27-07, 11:54 PM	Actually, at epic levels your unarmed strikes should be getting treated as slashing weapons, thanks to Keen Strike and Vorpal Strike, so take Slashing Weapon Mastery instead of Blunt Weapon Mastery, assuming such a thing exists. I don't have the book, so I don't know. Taking fighter levels early on also lowers your saves, and taking fighter levels later on allows you to get more epic feats, which is generally good. The BAB may outweigh that, I wouldn't know, but I do know that there are benefits to waiting to pick up fighter levels.
AkaKageWarrior 05-28-07, 03:13 AM	...and taking fighter levels later on allows you to get more epic feats, which is generally good.... not until the fighter class is at least level 20. before that, the fighter bonus feats must not be epic feats! so take at least so many fighter levels (4) to get an extra attack for BAB 16 at lvl 20. checkout Oriental Adventures for monk PrCl. AKW
Yodasatomicweed 05-28-07, 03:46 AM	not until the fighter class is at least level 20. before that, the fighter bonus feats must not be epic feats! I thought the wording in the ELH indicated that when you chose a bonus feat for a class, even if that class was not epic, you could still choose from the bonus feat list for the epic class if your overall character was epic. The wording on that is confusing, but I guess a summary would be something like this: Overall character level is epic You gain a bonus feat for a class you are not yet epic in You can choose a feat from that class's epic bonus feat list because your character is epic. This seems like a sleezy way to get epic feats, but I believe it's perfectly legal. Is there anyone who knows for sure the ruling on this, or is it just up to individual DM fiat?
AkaKageWarrior 05-28-07, 08:44 AM	I thought the wording in the ELH indicated that when you chose a bonus feat for a class, even if that class was not epic, you could still choose from the bonus feat list for the epic class if your overall character was epic. Nope! I'm quite sure about it, but don't remember where to find it. the feat you get every 3 levels from overall character class can be epic, but not feats you get from classes where your class level is below 20. AKW
rob_douglas 05-28-07, 12:01 PM	We have argued this several times. This is the wording that should settle it: Acquiring Epic Feats Characters gain epic feats in the following ways: At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat. Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class. The Fighter class, pre-epic, does not grant "bonus epic feats" - it grants "bonus feats". Then there is just applying simple logic to it - and noting that granting epic feats to everyone that takes 2 levels of fighter at 20th level is just silly. Certainly there would be no reason for every melee character not to do it. ROB
kreesteeyan 05-28-07, 12:57 PM	Check out page 8 of ELH, Adding a Second Class section, last sentence. It says there you can choose epic bonus feats from the list of bonus feats from the class. Weird thing is that it should be here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#addingaSecondClass) but it is not.
Yodasatomicweed 05-28-07, 01:23 PM	Then there is just applying simple logic to it - and noting that granting epic feats to everyone that takes 2 levels of fighter at 20th level is just silly. I definately agree that it's silly and not quite right, but I thought that it was allowed by the rules. I do remember arguements as well, I just wasn't sure what the final consensus was.
haelduksf 05-28-07, 04:22 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430042 When is my character considered epic? Okay, this is a complicated question. Being epic comes in stages, like so: * When your ECL reaches 21, you begin using epic experience tables and epic wealth guidelines. * When you have 21 total HD, you may begin gaining epic feats. * When you have 21 character levels, you begin using the epic base attack bonus and save progressions. Note that racial HD are not included in this calculation--they do not use epic attack and save progressions. * When you have 21 levels in a particular class, you begin using the appropriate epic class progression. * When you have 20 total HD, including 10 levels in a prestige class, you may begin gaining epic levels in that prestige class. When the Epic Level Handbook makes statements like "[class] does not [class ability] after 20th level," they are referring to your 20th class level, not your 20th character level. Specific examples of this are spells per day for spellcasters, and unarmed damage for monks.
MagicMouth 05-28-07, 05:28 PM	To get back on track... How about the Shadow Sun Ninja from Tome of Battle? There are also some combo Prestige Classes such as the Enlightened Fist and Fist of Zuoken, these two examples advanced both Monk abilities as well as arcane spellcasting and psionics, respectively. Might be useful.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-28-07, 08:27 PM	Ok what monk build would allow me to deal the most damage i the least amount of time
bluemage55 05-28-07, 08:44 PM	Ok what monk build would allow me to deal the most damage i the least amount of time One that involves two-weapon fighting with a greatsword and your unarmed attacks (it is possible to use your unarmed attacks as off-hand even when both hands are full). If you're only interested in damage, monk is not the right way to go, since you can get the monk unarmed damage increases from an advanced version of the monk's belt (CL 40, 2,080,000 gp, unarmed strike and AC as 20th-level monk). You would probably be better off going with pure fighter with specialized item selection, to deliver deadly 10-attack diving (x2 damage) Dire Charges from the air.
Millenia 05-28-07, 09:56 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm
NoldorForce 05-29-07, 12:04 AM	Again, if you're searching for damage, you'll want as many effective size increases as you can get with your unarmed strikes. (I've managed Colossal+6 with a degenerate arena character.) Plus the two die size increases from Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, from the Draconomicon. (This put the character up to 192d6 base damage.) And find ways to pounce and to multiply damage on a charge. Plus ways to get more attacks with your unarmed strikes. As above, you don't need many monk levels at all to deal damage as a 20th-level monk; there are a number of items and so forth that increase your effective level.
strenoth 05-29-07, 02:15 AM	Don't forget a couple die boost from the Reapin Mauler. Well, at least, in the original: http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_reaping_mauler.htm