Advanced Dragon Turtle [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advanced Dragon Turtle [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
05-19-07, 08:27 PM I'm advancing a dragon turtle from 12 to 36 hit dice (CR 21). The base dragon turtle's breath weapon does 12d6 points of fire (steam) damage. In advancing the dragon turtle's breath weapon should I:

1. advance it to 36d6 because a dragon turtle's breath weapon does 1d6/hit die;
2. advance it to somewhere from 16 dice to 20 dice because that's about the standard range of damage for the breath weapon of a gargantuan dragon whose huge size does 12 dice;
3. advance it to 16d6 because that's what an increase in size by one category would do to a natural weapon;
4. don't advance it at all (other than to increase the DC for the increase in Constitution bonus) because there's no provision for advancing the special abilities of creatures when you advance them by hit dice;
5. advance it to 24d6 because that's the CR + 3, and the base dragon turtle's breath weapon of 12d6 is also equal to the CR +3.
6. something else.

Thanks! :)
Grandmaster_Kane
05-19-07, 09:45 PM number 1 sounds the best to me but im not good at advancing lol
Thorsbjorn
05-19-07, 10:08 PM number 1 sounds the best to me but im not good at advancing lol

Thanks; I appreciate the feedback. My gut says that to provide a good CR 21 challenge I should pick someting between 12d6 and 36d6, but I like to solicit feedback before making my decision. Thanks! :)
Upper_Krust
05-20-07, 08:37 AM Hey there Thorsbjorn! :)

I would advance it to 36d6 for a number of reasons.

1. Even if you roll above average numbers, chances are it won't kill anyone but the wizard.

2. Epic characters have many more ways to escape or rescind death.

3. The Dragon Turtle really needs some firepower at that level, otherwise the PCs are just going to make mincemeat from it, and it can only use the breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.

4. Many PCs have some sort of fire resistance at that level.
Thorsbjorn
05-20-07, 10:23 AM Hey there Thorsbjorn! :)

I would advance it to 36d6 for a number of reasons.

1. Even if you roll above average numbers, chances are it won't kill anyone but the wizard.

2. Epic characters have many more ways to escape or rescind death.

3. The Dragon Turtle really needs some firepower at that level, otherwise the PCs are just going to make mincemeat from it, and it can only use the breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.

4. Many PCs have some sort of fire resistance at that level.

Hi Upper_Krust! Thanks for the reply!

That was my original inclination too. Once I tossed in the Maximize Breath feat from Draconomicon, however, I was looking at the breath weapon doing 252 points of damage. That got me to wondering if the party's sorceress, and wizard, and the wizard's dragon familiar/cohort could survive even on a successful saving throw. Actually the faimilar/cohort has improved evasion, so it would survive. I think with contingent energy resistance, mass bear's endurance and empowered false life the sorceress would survive a single blast on a successful saving throw. I think the wizard with mass bear's endurance and false life would probably survive, and if he has a contingent protection from fire going, as he sometimes does, then he would survive on a successful saving throw and maybe even just on a failed saving throw too. The sorceress would certainly die on a failed saving throw. The dragon (a silver dragon, who takes an extra 50% damage from fire) would take 5 hp more than she has, but since she gets the same mass bear's endurance as everyone else in the party, she woul actually survive with 12 hit points.

Since the party has access to at least two mass heal spells per day typically, I think you're right that even with Maximize Breath that the 36d6 would be a suitable challenge; if it doesn't kill them outright, the cleric will simply heal 190 hit points on everybody during his next turn.

Edit: I meant to mention that someone on the epic boards suggested that since the breath weapon of a dragon turtle, CR 9, does about the same average damage as a CR 9 gold dragon's breath, that the CR 21 dragon turtle's breath should do about the same damage on average as a CR 21 gold dragon's breath, which would be 25d6 for the dragon turtle. Any thoughts? Thanks! :)
kreesteeyan
05-20-07, 11:04 AM 36d6. Because any party worth their salt at that level would defeat that dragon turtle.

If you want to have fun, apply the multi-headed template from savage species. ;)
Thorsbjorn
05-20-07, 01:21 PM 36d6. Because any party worth their salt at that level would defeat that dragon turtle.

If you want to have fun, apply the multi-headed template from savage species. ;)

Thanks for the feedback, kreesteeyan! :) I'm already using the multi-headed template for another monster, so I doubt I'll use it here again. I am, however, leaning back toward using 36d6 for the breath weapon. :)
Upper_Krust
05-20-07, 04:08 PM Hi Upper_Krust!

Hey Thorsbjorn! :)

Thanks for the reply!

Happy to help! :D

That was my original inclination too. Once I tossed in the Maximize Breath feat from Draconomicon, however, I was looking at the breath weapon doing 252 points of damage. That got me to wondering if the party's sorceress, and wizard, and the wizard's dragon familiar/cohort could survive even on a successful saving throw. Actually the faimilar/cohort has improved evasion, so it would survive. I think with contingent energy resistance, mass bear's endurance and empowered false life the sorceress would survive a single blast on a successful saving throw. I think the wizard with mass bear's endurance and false life would probably survive, and if he has a contingent protection from fire going, as he sometimes does, then he would survive on a successful saving throw and maybe even just on a failed saving throw too. The sorceress would certainly die on a failed saving throw. The dragon (a silver dragon, who takes an extra 50% damage from fire) would take 5 hp more than she has, but since she gets the same mass bear's endurance as everyone else in the party, she woul actually survive with 12 hit points.

Since the party has access to at least two mass heal spells per day typically, I think you're right that even with Maximize Breath that the 36d6 would be a suitable challenge; if it doesn't kill them outright, the cleric will simply heal 190 hit points on everybody during his next turn.

You have to make the Dragon Turtle a challenge, I definately say keep it at 36d6.

Edit: I meant to mention that someone on the epic boards suggested that since the breath weapon of a dragon turtle, CR 9, does about the same average damage as a CR 9 gold dragon's breath, that the CR 21 dragon turtle's breath should do about the same damage on average as a CR 21 gold dragon's breath, which would be 25d6 for the dragon turtle. Any thoughts? Thanks! :)

They should change all dragon breath weapons to 1d6/HD.
Thorsbjorn
05-20-07, 04:58 PM Hey Thorsbjorn! :)

Happy to help! :D

You have to make the Dragon Turtle a challenge, I definately say keep it at 36d6.

They should change all dragon breath weapons to 1d6/HD.

The emerging consensus (by which I mean three or four people :P ) here and on another thread seems to support raising the advanced dragon turtle's breath damage to 36d6. I've actually made the change on my sheet, although I haven't printed it yet.

Changing all dragon breath weapons to 1d6/HD would substantially improve them all, wouldn't it? Actually I just did the analysis for the gold great wyrm, and it increases the average damage by only 11 points. That hardly seems worth the effort of changing them all.
bluemage55
05-20-07, 07:55 PM First, the CR would be 22, because it increases in size to Gargantuan.

Secondly, the breath weapon damage would remain the same.

Only true dragons become significantly more powerful with age (beyond what HD normally entail), and this is reflected in their CR, which increases more than +1 per 2 HD (for advanced dragons, it is +2 per 3 HD).
SupaTalka
05-21-07, 11:55 AM If you really wanted to throw them for a loop...

I'd suggest the "Dragon Ravager" PrC on a red dragon.

I know, I know, you said you wanted a dragon turtle, but I'm throwing this out as an alternative.

Let me hi-light the abilities you'd get with 5 levels of Dragon Ravager:

Draconic Rage: As barbarian rage duration, +6 str, +6 con, +2 morale bonus to Will saves, -2 ac. 5/day Later replaced by Improved Rage (as I said, 5 levels worth)

Fling: A ravager may use it's Awesome Blow ability to knock a character back 25 feet back instead of the normal 10 feet. This causes 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage instead of the normal 2d6 if they strike an obstacle.

Enhanced Breath Weapon: Breath weapon gains +2 damage dice, and reduces the cooldown from 1d4 to 1d3 rounds per breath.

Spell Rage: As a free action, a raging dragon ravager can use up 1 spell to gain additional damage on a single melee attack per round, gaining an extra 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell slot used up. You must choose to use this before rolling to attack.

Improved Draconic Rage: +10 Str, +10 Con, +4 Will save, -2 ac.

Breath Gout: As a full round action, the dragon doubles the damage of his breath weapon. It may not use its breath weapon for 1d4 minutes afterwards.

Fight them in a volcano where the dragon lairs, and use Awesome Blow to knock them into lava pools and rocks. Try a normal breath (which will probably be assorbed by protection spells) then open up a can with your Maximized - Breath Gout for full double damage.

If it gets down to it, melee with Spell Rage+Fling+Awesome blow+Lava is really fun.

And yeah, if you're going to use the dragon turtle, give it the 36d6, it will need it.
Thorsbjorn
05-22-07, 11:14 AM First, the CR would be 22, because it increases in size to Gargantuan.

Secondly, the breath weapon damage would remain the same.

Only true dragons become significantly more powerful with age (beyond what HD normally entail), and this is reflected in their CR, which increases more than +1 per 2 HD (for advanced dragons, it is +2 per 3 HD).

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I pretty much always ignore the +1 CR from the size increase when I advance these critters, as they're rarely strong enough as it is to live up to their new CR even without the +1. I have serious doubts that the advanced dragon turtle at CR 21 is going to represent that much of a challenge for the party.

If you really wanted to throw them for a loop...

I'd suggest the "Dragon Ravager" PrC on a red dragon.

I know, I know, you said you wanted a dragon turtle, but I'm throwing this out as an alternative.

Let me hi-light the abilities you'd get with 5 levels of Dragon Ravager:

Draconic Rage: As barbarian rage duration, +6 str, +6 con, +2 morale bonus to Will saves, -2 ac. 5/day Later replaced by Improved Rage (as I said, 5 levels worth)

Fling: A ravager may use it's Awesome Blow ability to knock a character back 25 feet back instead of the normal 10 feet. This causes 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage instead of the normal 2d6 if they strike an obstacle.

Enhanced Breath Weapon: Breath weapon gains +2 damage dice, and reduces the cooldown from 1d4 to 1d3 rounds per breath.

Spell Rage: As a free action, a raging dragon ravager can use up 1 spell to gain additional damage on a single melee attack per round, gaining an extra 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell slot used up. You must choose to use this before rolling to attack.

Improved Draconic Rage: +10 Str, +10 Con, +4 Will save, -2 ac.

Breath Gout: As a full round action, the dragon doubles the damage of his breath weapon. It may not use its breath weapon for 1d4 minutes afterwards.

Fight them in a volcano where the dragon lairs, and use Awesome Blow to knock them into lava pools and rocks. Try a normal breath (which will probably be assorbed by protection spells) then open up a can with your Maximized - Breath Gout for full double damage.

If it gets down to it, melee with Spell Rage+Fling+Awesome blow+Lava is really fun.

And yeah, if you're going to use the dragon turtle, give it the 36d6, it will need it.

I don't really see the red dragon ravager swimming up to their ship, but you sure put a lot of thought into it, so thank you very much!

I've taken your advice and raised the advanced dragon turtle's breath weapon to 36d6. So now we'll see... :P
Thorsbjorn
05-23-07, 04:51 AM Someone on another thread had given and advanced dragon turtle the Awaken Spell Resistance feat from Draconomicon, giving it an SR of 36. That would give the wizard in my campaign's party a 50% chance of getting through, and the other spell casters even less (35% for the sorcerer and 30% for the cleric) so I decided to drop Ability Focus (breath) and replace it with Awaken Spell Resistance, and then raise the CR to the 22 it should get for the size increase. :)
runestar
05-23-07, 05:24 AM 1 question - how do you plan on tackling flight?:P
Thorsbjorn
05-23-07, 10:26 AM 1 question - how do you plan on tackling flight?:P

Well, see, he'll pull his head and legs into his shell, then shoot flames out of the openings, and spin around realy, reall fast... :P

At Gamera, you can leave the flying to us!
Holy_Beholder
05-26-07, 01:26 AM 1 question - how do you plan on tackling flight?:P

By diving deep underwater and relying on the natural chase instinct of PCs to take it into the seas. PCs usually chase stuff down, and in the water the dragon turtle is king.
Thorsbjorn
05-26-07, 06:09 AM By diving deep underwater and relying on the natural chase instinct of PCs to take it into the seas. PCs usually chase stuff down, and in the water the dragon turtle is king.

I think you and I interpreted Runestar's comment differently. I thought he was asking how I was going to give the dragon turtle flgiht, and was just joking. It seems like you interpreted him as asking how I was going to have the dragon turtle deal with the characters' ability to fly. Is that what you meant, Holy_Beholder?

So Runestar, which one did you mean in the first place? :)
runestar
05-26-07, 09:24 AM Both actually. I was just curious as to how your npc would handle foes with access to flight. It did not necessarily have to be able to fly, so long as it does not become the equivalent of a dead duck against such foes. If you have set the battlefield such that it is designed to nullify their flight capabilities, or somehow give the turtle wings or something, then it is good enough for me. I wasn't looking for any sort of specific answer in mind.:)
Thorsbjorn
05-26-07, 12:31 PM Both actually. I was just curious as to how your npc would handle foes with access to flight. It did not necessarily have to be able to fly, so long as it does not become the equivalent of a dead duck against such foes. If you have set the battlefield such that it is designed to nullify their flight capabilities, or somehow give the turtle wings or something, then it is good enough for me. I wasn't looking for any sort of specific answer in mind.:)

Well if they fly above the range of its breath weapon there's not much it can do to them directly. I could, however, capsize the boat, which would prove rather inconvenient for them. :P
Holy_Beholder
05-27-07, 06:32 PM I think you and I interpreted Runestar's comment differently. I thought he was asking how I was going to give the dragon turtle flgiht, and was just joking. It seems like you interpreted him as asking how I was going to have the dragon turtle deal with the characters' ability to fly. Is that what you meant, Holy_Beholder?

So Runestar, which one did you mean in the first place? :)

Yeah, thats what I meant. It usually works too, players have a tendency to chase monsters, and underwater that guy can pretty much fly. Flying characters can butcher most monsters, although dragons tend to do pretty well.
Thorsbjorn
05-27-07, 09:35 PM Yeah, thats what I meant. It usually works too, players have a tendency to chase monsters, and underwater that guy can pretty much fly. Flying characters can butcher most monsters, although dragons tend to do pretty well.

In this case they'll be traveling by ship to the Labyrinth of the Minotaur (a CR 25 abomination, not the little CR 4 version) and if the advanced dragon turtle attacks their ship and they fight it off on the surface, I don't think they'll give chance, but just let it flee. If it capsizes their ship and sticks around underwater to eat the floating survivors one by one, then they might have some serious trouble. :)
Holy_Beholder
05-28-07, 02:17 PM Well, it needs to take care of the ship then. Maybe it could grab some valuable on the ship(magic item not currently worn or something) and dive down with it.
Thorsbjorn
05-28-07, 07:16 PM Well, it needs to take care of the ship then. Maybe it could grab some valuable on the ship(magic item not currently worn or something) and dive down with it.

You mean just to force them to chase it underwater?
Holy_Beholder
05-29-07, 06:13 PM Yes. Then they have to kill it before it incinerates the valuble(maybe)
Thorsbjorn
05-29-07, 06:34 PM Yes. Then they have to kill it before it incinerates the valuble(maybe)

Probably I'll have it collide with the ship to stop it, then demand treasure. If it doesn't get treasure then it will attack the ship, maybe starting with the breath weapon. If the party starts to really beat it up, it'll probably go under the ship and attempt to capsize it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 05-19-07, 08:27 PM	I'm advancing a dragon turtle from 12 to 36 hit dice (CR 21). The base dragon turtle's breath weapon does 12d6 points of fire (steam) damage. In advancing the dragon turtle's breath weapon should I: 1. advance it to 36d6 because a dragon turtle's breath weapon does 1d6/hit die; 2. advance it to somewhere from 16 dice to 20 dice because that's about the standard range of damage for the breath weapon of a gargantuan dragon whose huge size does 12 dice; 3. advance it to 16d6 because that's what an increase in size by one category would do to a natural weapon; 4. don't advance it at all (other than to increase the DC for the increase in Constitution bonus) because there's no provision for advancing the special abilities of creatures when you advance them by hit dice; 5. advance it to 24d6 because that's the CR + 3, and the base dragon turtle's breath weapon of 12d6 is also equal to the CR +3. 6. something else. Thanks! :)
Grandmaster_Kane 05-19-07, 09:45 PM	number 1 sounds the best to me but im not good at advancing lol
Thorsbjorn 05-19-07, 10:08 PM	number 1 sounds the best to me but im not good at advancing lol Thanks; I appreciate the feedback. My gut says that to provide a good CR 21 challenge I should pick someting between 12d6 and 36d6, but I like to solicit feedback before making my decision. Thanks! :)
Upper_Krust 05-20-07, 08:37 AM	Hey there Thorsbjorn! :) I would advance it to 36d6 for a number of reasons. 1. Even if you roll above average numbers, chances are it won't kill anyone but the wizard. 2. Epic characters have many more ways to escape or rescind death. 3. The Dragon Turtle really needs some firepower at that level, otherwise the PCs are just going to make mincemeat from it, and it can only use the breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds. 4. Many PCs have some sort of fire resistance at that level.
Thorsbjorn 05-20-07, 10:23 AM	Hey there Thorsbjorn! :) I would advance it to 36d6 for a number of reasons. 1. Even if you roll above average numbers, chances are it won't kill anyone but the wizard. 2. Epic characters have many more ways to escape or rescind death. 3. The Dragon Turtle really needs some firepower at that level, otherwise the PCs are just going to make mincemeat from it, and it can only use the breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds. 4. Many PCs have some sort of fire resistance at that level. Hi Upper_Krust! Thanks for the reply! That was my original inclination too. Once I tossed in the Maximize Breath feat from Draconomicon, however, I was looking at the breath weapon doing 252 points of damage. That got me to wondering if the party's sorceress, and wizard, and the wizard's dragon familiar/cohort could survive even on a successful saving throw. Actually the faimilar/cohort has improved evasion, so it would survive. I think with contingent energy resistance, mass bear's endurance and empowered false life the sorceress would survive a single blast on a successful saving throw. I think the wizard with mass bear's endurance and false life would probably survive, and if he has a contingent protection from fire going, as he sometimes does, then he would survive on a successful saving throw and maybe even just on a failed saving throw too. The sorceress would certainly die on a failed saving throw. The dragon (a silver dragon, who takes an extra 50% damage from fire) would take 5 hp more than she has, but since she gets the same mass bear's endurance as everyone else in the party, she woul actually survive with 12 hit points. Since the party has access to at least two mass heal spells per day typically, I think you're right that even with Maximize Breath that the 36d6 would be a suitable challenge; if it doesn't kill them outright, the cleric will simply heal 190 hit points on everybody during his next turn. Edit: I meant to mention that someone on the epic boards suggested that since the breath weapon of a dragon turtle, CR 9, does about the same average damage as a CR 9 gold dragon's breath, that the CR 21 dragon turtle's breath should do about the same damage on average as a CR 21 gold dragon's breath, which would be 25d6 for the dragon turtle. Any thoughts? Thanks! :)
kreesteeyan 05-20-07, 11:04 AM	36d6. Because any party worth their salt at that level would defeat that dragon turtle. If you want to have fun, apply the multi-headed template from savage species. ;)
Thorsbjorn 05-20-07, 01:21 PM	36d6. Because any party worth their salt at that level would defeat that dragon turtle. If you want to have fun, apply the multi-headed template from savage species. ;) Thanks for the feedback, kreesteeyan! :) I'm already using the multi-headed template for another monster, so I doubt I'll use it here again. I am, however, leaning back toward using 36d6 for the breath weapon. :)
Upper_Krust 05-20-07, 04:08 PM	Hi Upper_Krust! Hey Thorsbjorn! :) Thanks for the reply! Happy to help! :D That was my original inclination too. Once I tossed in the Maximize Breath feat from Draconomicon, however, I was looking at the breath weapon doing 252 points of damage. That got me to wondering if the party's sorceress, and wizard, and the wizard's dragon familiar/cohort could survive even on a successful saving throw. Actually the faimilar/cohort has improved evasion, so it would survive. I think with contingent energy resistance, mass bear's endurance and empowered false life the sorceress would survive a single blast on a successful saving throw. I think the wizard with mass bear's endurance and false life would probably survive, and if he has a contingent protection from fire going, as he sometimes does, then he would survive on a successful saving throw and maybe even just on a failed saving throw too. The sorceress would certainly die on a failed saving throw. The dragon (a silver dragon, who takes an extra 50% damage from fire) would take 5 hp more than she has, but since she gets the same mass bear's endurance as everyone else in the party, she woul actually survive with 12 hit points. Since the party has access to at least two mass heal spells per day typically, I think you're right that even with Maximize Breath that the 36d6 would be a suitable challenge; if it doesn't kill them outright, the cleric will simply heal 190 hit points on everybody during his next turn. You have to make the Dragon Turtle a challenge, I definately say keep it at 36d6. Edit: I meant to mention that someone on the epic boards suggested that since the breath weapon of a dragon turtle, CR 9, does about the same average damage as a CR 9 gold dragon's breath, that the CR 21 dragon turtle's breath should do about the same damage on average as a CR 21 gold dragon's breath, which would be 25d6 for the dragon turtle. Any thoughts? Thanks! :) They should change all dragon breath weapons to 1d6/HD.
Thorsbjorn 05-20-07, 04:58 PM	Hey Thorsbjorn! :) Happy to help! :D You have to make the Dragon Turtle a challenge, I definately say keep it at 36d6. They should change all dragon breath weapons to 1d6/HD. The emerging consensus (by which I mean three or four people :P ) here and on another thread seems to support raising the advanced dragon turtle's breath damage to 36d6. I've actually made the change on my sheet, although I haven't printed it yet. Changing all dragon breath weapons to 1d6/HD would substantially improve them all, wouldn't it? Actually I just did the analysis for the gold great wyrm, and it increases the average damage by only 11 points. That hardly seems worth the effort of changing them all.
bluemage55 05-20-07, 07:55 PM	First, the CR would be 22, because it increases in size to Gargantuan. Secondly, the breath weapon damage would remain the same. Only true dragons become significantly more powerful with age (beyond what HD normally entail), and this is reflected in their CR, which increases more than +1 per 2 HD (for advanced dragons, it is +2 per 3 HD).
SupaTalka 05-21-07, 11:55 AM	If you really wanted to throw them for a loop... I'd suggest the "Dragon Ravager" PrC on a red dragon. I know, I know, you said you wanted a dragon turtle, but I'm throwing this out as an alternative. Let me hi-light the abilities you'd get with 5 levels of Dragon Ravager: Draconic Rage: As barbarian rage duration, +6 str, +6 con, +2 morale bonus to Will saves, -2 ac. 5/day Later replaced by Improved Rage (as I said, 5 levels worth) Fling: A ravager may use it's Awesome Blow ability to knock a character back 25 feet back instead of the normal 10 feet. This causes 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage instead of the normal 2d6 if they strike an obstacle. Enhanced Breath Weapon: Breath weapon gains +2 damage dice, and reduces the cooldown from 1d4 to 1d3 rounds per breath. Spell Rage: As a free action, a raging dragon ravager can use up 1 spell to gain additional damage on a single melee attack per round, gaining an extra 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell slot used up. You must choose to use this before rolling to attack. Improved Draconic Rage: +10 Str, +10 Con, +4 Will save, -2 ac. Breath Gout: As a full round action, the dragon doubles the damage of his breath weapon. It may not use its breath weapon for 1d4 minutes afterwards. Fight them in a volcano where the dragon lairs, and use Awesome Blow to knock them into lava pools and rocks. Try a normal breath (which will probably be assorbed by protection spells) then open up a can with your Maximized - Breath Gout for full double damage. If it gets down to it, melee with Spell Rage+Fling+Awesome blow+Lava is really fun. And yeah, if you're going to use the dragon turtle, give it the 36d6, it will need it.
Thorsbjorn 05-22-07, 11:14 AM	First, the CR would be 22, because it increases in size to Gargantuan. Secondly, the breath weapon damage would remain the same. Only true dragons become significantly more powerful with age (beyond what HD normally entail), and this is reflected in their CR, which increases more than +1 per 2 HD (for advanced dragons, it is +2 per 3 HD). Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I pretty much always ignore the +1 CR from the size increase when I advance these critters, as they're rarely strong enough as it is to live up to their new CR even without the +1. I have serious doubts that the advanced dragon turtle at CR 21 is going to represent that much of a challenge for the party. If you really wanted to throw them for a loop... I'd suggest the "Dragon Ravager" PrC on a red dragon. I know, I know, you said you wanted a dragon turtle, but I'm throwing this out as an alternative. Let me hi-light the abilities you'd get with 5 levels of Dragon Ravager: Draconic Rage: As barbarian rage duration, +6 str, +6 con, +2 morale bonus to Will saves, -2 ac. 5/day Later replaced by Improved Rage (as I said, 5 levels worth) Fling: A ravager may use it's Awesome Blow ability to knock a character back 25 feet back instead of the normal 10 feet. This causes 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage instead of the normal 2d6 if they strike an obstacle. Enhanced Breath Weapon: Breath weapon gains +2 damage dice, and reduces the cooldown from 1d4 to 1d3 rounds per breath. Spell Rage: As a free action, a raging dragon ravager can use up 1 spell to gain additional damage on a single melee attack per round, gaining an extra 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell slot used up. You must choose to use this before rolling to attack. Improved Draconic Rage: +10 Str, +10 Con, +4 Will save, -2 ac. Breath Gout: As a full round action, the dragon doubles the damage of his breath weapon. It may not use its breath weapon for 1d4 minutes afterwards. Fight them in a volcano where the dragon lairs, and use Awesome Blow to knock them into lava pools and rocks. Try a normal breath (which will probably be assorbed by protection spells) then open up a can with your Maximized - Breath Gout for full double damage. If it gets down to it, melee with Spell Rage+Fling+Awesome blow+Lava is really fun. And yeah, if you're going to use the dragon turtle, give it the 36d6, it will need it. I don't really see the red dragon ravager swimming up to their ship, but you sure put a lot of thought into it, so thank you very much! I've taken your advice and raised the advanced dragon turtle's breath weapon to 36d6. So now we'll see... :P
Thorsbjorn 05-23-07, 04:51 AM	Someone on another thread had given and advanced dragon turtle the Awaken Spell Resistance feat from Draconomicon, giving it an SR of 36. That would give the wizard in my campaign's party a 50% chance of getting through, and the other spell casters even less (35% for the sorcerer and 30% for the cleric) so I decided to drop Ability Focus (breath) and replace it with Awaken Spell Resistance, and then raise the CR to the 22 it should get for the size increase. :)
runestar 05-23-07, 05:24 AM	1 question - how do you plan on tackling flight?:P
Thorsbjorn 05-23-07, 10:26 AM	1 question - how do you plan on tackling flight?:P Well, see, he'll pull his head and legs into his shell, then shoot flames out of the openings, and spin around realy, reall fast... :P At Gamera, you can leave the flying to us!
Holy_Beholder 05-26-07, 01:26 AM	1 question - how do you plan on tackling flight?:P By diving deep underwater and relying on the natural chase instinct of PCs to take it into the seas. PCs usually chase stuff down, and in the water the dragon turtle is king.
Thorsbjorn 05-26-07, 06:09 AM	By diving deep underwater and relying on the natural chase instinct of PCs to take it into the seas. PCs usually chase stuff down, and in the water the dragon turtle is king. I think you and I interpreted Runestar's comment differently. I thought he was asking how I was going to give the dragon turtle flgiht, and was just joking. It seems like you interpreted him as asking how I was going to have the dragon turtle deal with the characters' ability to fly. Is that what you meant, Holy_Beholder? So Runestar, which one did you mean in the first place? :)
runestar 05-26-07, 09:24 AM	Both actually. I was just curious as to how your npc would handle foes with access to flight. It did not necessarily have to be able to fly, so long as it does not become the equivalent of a dead duck against such foes. If you have set the battlefield such that it is designed to nullify their flight capabilities, or somehow give the turtle wings or something, then it is good enough for me. I wasn't looking for any sort of specific answer in mind.:)
Thorsbjorn 05-26-07, 12:31 PM	Both actually. I was just curious as to how your npc would handle foes with access to flight. It did not necessarily have to be able to fly, so long as it does not become the equivalent of a dead duck against such foes. If you have set the battlefield such that it is designed to nullify their flight capabilities, or somehow give the turtle wings or something, then it is good enough for me. I wasn't looking for any sort of specific answer in mind.:) Well if they fly above the range of its breath weapon there's not much it can do to them directly. I could, however, capsize the boat, which would prove rather inconvenient for them. :P
Holy_Beholder 05-27-07, 06:32 PM	I think you and I interpreted Runestar's comment differently. I thought he was asking how I was going to give the dragon turtle flgiht, and was just joking. It seems like you interpreted him as asking how I was going to have the dragon turtle deal with the characters' ability to fly. Is that what you meant, Holy_Beholder? So Runestar, which one did you mean in the first place? :) Yeah, thats what I meant. It usually works too, players have a tendency to chase monsters, and underwater that guy can pretty much fly. Flying characters can butcher most monsters, although dragons tend to do pretty well.
Thorsbjorn 05-27-07, 09:35 PM	Yeah, thats what I meant. It usually works too, players have a tendency to chase monsters, and underwater that guy can pretty much fly. Flying characters can butcher most monsters, although dragons tend to do pretty well. In this case they'll be traveling by ship to the Labyrinth of the Minotaur (a CR 25 abomination, not the little CR 4 version) and if the advanced dragon turtle attacks their ship and they fight it off on the surface, I don't think they'll give chance, but just let it flee. If it capsizes their ship and sticks around underwater to eat the floating survivors one by one, then they might have some serious trouble. :)
Holy_Beholder 05-28-07, 02:17 PM	Well, it needs to take care of the ship then. Maybe it could grab some valuable on the ship(magic item not currently worn or something) and dive down with it.
Thorsbjorn 05-28-07, 07:16 PM	Well, it needs to take care of the ship then. Maybe it could grab some valuable on the ship(magic item not currently worn or something) and dive down with it. You mean just to force them to chase it underwater?
Holy_Beholder 05-29-07, 06:13 PM	Yes. Then they have to kill it before it incinerates the valuble(maybe)
Thorsbjorn 05-29-07, 06:34 PM	Yes. Then they have to kill it before it incinerates the valuble(maybe) Probably I'll have it collide with the ship to stop it, then demand treasure. If it doesn't get treasure then it will attack the ship, maybe starting with the breath weapon. If the party starts to really beat it up, it'll probably go under the ship and attempt to capsize it.