An alternate to Epic spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

An alternate to Epic spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Weiser_Cain
05-07-07, 08:35 AM I was wondering if there was another approach to epic spell casting that didn't involve seed and such? Something that seemed like a more natural progression.
Witch
05-07-07, 08:36 AM Feanmerc still uses seeds (but said seeds are lower level spells, which allows for far more variety), but it does look like a more natural progression (it assigns spell levels to each spell, and requires Improved Spell Capacity to be able to cast them.)
Alias
05-07-07, 12:15 PM Try this one (http://shtar.pbwiki.com/f/LSC.zip). It's a level-based system that follows the normal progression; spells are built using metamagic and various modifiers.
Thorsbjorn
05-08-07, 04:58 AM In the old days of original D&D, as I recall, I simply invented spells of 10th-12th level, and extended the regular spell progression into spells of those levels. Since a wizard (or an "MU" as we said back then :D) got 9th level spells at 17th level, I think I gave access to 10th level spells at 19th level, so it didn't exactly correspond to the 3rd Ed definition of "epic," but it was pretty close. I do think there's something fun, however, about having the epic spells follow somewhat different rules rather than just scaling up the non-epic system, but the 10th-12th level spells were cool too. Without trying to dig them out from 25 years ago, I seem to recall that I had a improved wish spell that, among other things, didn't carry any chance of going astray from the wisher's intent. It either worked or it didn't, but it didn't entail any dire (or humorous alas) consquences of slightly miswording the wish. :D

In my campaign I have an ancient spellcaster (30,000 years old) who's supposed to be something around 100th level, which under the original D&D rules meant very little more than being 20th level. I think the old MU got one additional hit point per level, so that rising from 20th to 100th level would give him an additional 80 hit points, but that's about it. MUs never got iterative attacks, and I think both THAC0 and the various saving throw all maxed out well below 20th. I think it's possible that the number of spells per day continued to grow over the levels, so there might have been that benefit. In any case though I did once have him raise an island to stop a tidal wave that the forces of evil caused with an earthquake--long before the 3.0 introduced the epic spell raise island. I don't recall whether I ever actually sat down and declared that raise island was a 12th-level spell or just let him do it. Back in those days D&D was a great deal more slap-dash and DMs did much, much more on the fly.

Anyway, I don't really have a strong preference for the current system of epic spells or simply having 10th-12th-level spells, although I have to admit that the DC system of determining spell power grants much more flexibility than the an additiona 3 spell levels would grant. Also, for the players here who play 50th-level characters and such, I'm not sure if even three more spell levels would suffice. I mean, if you follow the pattern of earlier spells, you'd get 11th-level spells at 21st level and 12th-level spells at 23rd level. Because the experience system required much larger amounts of experience for MUs under the original system, we never got PCs who actually got to 20th level. Indeed I went back and looked at the sheets of the PCs in my longest-running old original D&D campaign, which covered four or five years (although we didn't play constantly), and I think the highest-level character was a 17th-level rogue, er, thief I mean. :D Thieves had by far the lowest experience requirements, however. I think in that group the highest-level MU had reached 13th level.

I just took a peek at the two files Alias provided, and I see that the use a similar concept of increasing spell levels, only not limited to 12th, and requiring an epic feat rather than gained automatically. Of course back in the days of original D&D we didn't have feats (although this didn't stop us from frequently saying, "Feets don't fail me now!" as we ran away :D). It looks like the number of spells of the higher levels you get per day increases much more slowly too. Alias, do you still have to research each spell of these levels as with the current epic spells?
Alias
05-08-07, 12:48 PM In the old days of original D&D, as I recall...
Wow, talk about a blast from the past. You made me go dig out my 1E DMG (cause back in those days, THAC0s and saves were listed in there, not the PHB. :D Saves and THAC0 maxed out at L21, actually.. a L21 MU had a THAC0 of 11. Which is actually about the same as a +10 AB... And yeah, they only got 1 hp/level after "name level" (which in this case was L11, IIRC).

Back in those days D&D was a great deal more slap-dash and DMs did much, much more on the fly.
Yeah... a lot of the epic spells our group has now were ported over from a long-running 1E campaign my DM played in. They played fast and loose with the rules, so in some cases I was hard-pressed to convert the spells to 3E mechanics, and in others I just tossed them out completely - things like Midnight Noon (which caused a sun - not THE sun, but A sun) to rise at night, or Call to Shade, which killed every living being in a 5-mile radius and raised them as shadows under the caster's control. :rolleyes:

Alias, do you still have to research each spell of these levels as with the current epic spells?
We never really bothered with spell research rules - if we could come up with something reasonably balanced and the DM approved it, then we got it - so I didn't really think about it. I guess if you want to use the research rules, you could do them like normal 0-9th level spells... one week per spell level.
Thorsljon
05-09-07, 04:03 AM Wow, talk about a blast from the past. You made me go dig out my 1E DMG (cause back in those days, THAC0s and saves were listed in there, not the PHB. :D Saves and THAC0 maxed out at L21, actually.. a L21 MU had a THAC0 of 11. Which is actually about the same as a +10 AB... And yeah, they only got 1 hp/level after "name level" (which in this case was L11, IIRC).

I was actually talking about original Dungeons and Dragons, which Tactical Studies Rules (before they started using the abbreviation TSR) published in 1973 in three boxed pamphets called Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventures. Men and Magic contained the attack matrix tables--one for men and one for monsters--and the saving throw tables.

The attack matrix for men grouped the "to hit" numbers into what we informally called "swing zones" of three levels each, topping out at 16th level. A footnote indicated that while fighting-men (the original name of the fighter class) used the table as written, clerics advanced in groups of 4 levels and magic-users 5 levels. So fighting-men of 1st-3rd, clerics of 1st-4th, and magic-usgers of 1st-5th needed a 17 to hit AC 2 (plate armor and shield), 16 for AC 3 (plate armor), and on down to a 10 to hit AC 9 (no armor or shield). Note that unlike in 1st Ed, there's no AC 1 or 0 (and thus technically no THAC0) on the matrix, and no AC 10. Also note that AC 3 is plate armor, rather than the plate mail it would become in 1st Ed (opening the door to field plate armor and full plate armor in the 1st Ed Unearthed Arcana). So the fighting-man topped out on the attack matrix at 16th level, with a 5 needed to hit AC 2. Technically then a cleric didn't top out at the same number until 21st level, and a magic-user didn't top out until 26th level. Monsters, using a different attack matrix, topped out at 11 hit dice, where they needed a 7 to hit AC 2. Men and Magic also contained reference to an earlier combat system from Gary's original rules for medieval combat, called Chainmail, circa 1971, and using the 20-sided dice and the attack matrix represented a departure from the older rules for those who didn't like them.

For saving throws, a magic-user topped out at 16th level. Clerics and fighters topped out at 13th level. (Note that fighting-men, clerics and magic-users were the only classes in Men and Magic.)

As for spells, magic-users had access to spells of 1st-6th levels, and clerics 1st-5th. Their spells per day, however, progressed without any upward limit.

For hit dice all three classes used a 6-sided die. Fighting-men got one per level from 1st to 10th, and at some levels got an extra hit point, two hit points, or three hit points. (At first level they got 1+1, at 9th level 9+3, without any apparent pattern.) After 10th level they sometimes got only an additional hit point, other times an additional die. Magic users at all levels sometimes got an extra die and sometimes only an extra point. An 11th-level magic-user ("wizard") had 8+1 (compared to 10+3 for the fighting-man.) Clerics, like magic-users, sometimes got a hit die and sometimes only a bonus hit point, but a few more hit dice than the magic-users.

Dungeons and Dragons Supplement I: Greyhawk (1976) switched the hit dice system to something more familiar. The slightly-renamed fighter got an 8-sided die each a levels 1-9 and then +2 hit points per level thereafter. The magic-user got a 4-sided hit die each at levels 1-11, and +1 hit point per level thereafter. The cleric kept the 6-sided hit die at each level 1st through 8th, and then half a hit point per level thereafter. The new thief class got a 4-sided hit die each at 1st-10th levels. The table showing all four classes' hit dice indicates that a thief got half a hit point per level thereafter, but the table with the thief level names (master thief at 10th level) shows one hit point per level thereafter. Greyhawk introduced the paladin, but only as a lawful fighter with a Charisma score of at least 17. (In those days Gygax still had a one-dimensional alignment system that ran from law to chaos, as in Michael Moorcock's Elric books, where law equaled good and chaos equaled evil.)

Gygax extended the spells per day table for magic-users from 14th to 22nd levels, and for clerics from 10th through 20th levels, although still didn't cap spells per day. He also added 7th- through 9th-level spells for magic-users and 6th- & 7th-level spells for clerics.

I see that I have some 8th-level cleric spells penciled in: regenerate, restoration II, power word of command, and imprisonment. I also have a 9th-level cleric spell listed for saints only called miracle. Yup, that's right, I invented the miracle spell long before it entered official D&D. :D I'm sure that so did several thousand other players. :P

I also have some 10th- and 11th-level magic-user spells penciled in. The 10th-level spells included disintegrate demons I, demon door, metal-flesh, massport, power word kill II, disintegrate devils I, devil door and defensive energy discharge. My 11th-level spells included disintegrate demons II, power word of command, excellent prismatic spray, mass-summons, disintegrate devils II, and offensive energy discharge. That's right--I also had a prismatic spray spell before official D&D had one. In fairness I got it from the same source as D&D, indeed the same source from which Gygax took the idea of a caster having more weaker or fewer more powerful spells, a short story by Jack Vance. In the story the protagonist used a spell called very fine prinsmatic spray, which disintegrated his opponent, and in a bit of coin-collecting humor I upgraded it from "very fine" to "excellent." :D

In case you're wondering, Supplement II: Blackmoor added the monk and assassin classes. The monk got only a 4-sided hit die and had a limit of 16 levels. An assassin got a 6-sided hit die (yes, better than the original thief) and had a limit of 13 levels. The monk, incidentally, got iterative attacks up to 4 at 15th level, the first class to get them.

Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry introduced the druid. The druid was a cleric subclass, getting both the cleric's six-sided dice and spells of up to 7th-level (ableit with a somewhat-different spell list). The druid had a maxium of 13 levels, but got only an extra hit point, not a hit die, at 4th and 9th levels, harking back to the original system contained in Men and Magic. Blackmoor also introduced demons and magic resistance, and prompted me to create my disintegrate demon spells, which effectively lower the magic resistance of the targeted demons.

It's fun strolling down memory lane with you. :)

Yeah... a lot of the epic spells our group has now were ported over from a long-running 1E campaign my DM played in. They played fast and loose with the rules, so in some cases I was hard-pressed to convert the spells to 3E mechanics, and in others I just tossed them out completely - things like Midnight Noon (which caused a sun - not THE sun, but A sun) to rise at night, or Call to Shade, which killed every living being in a 5-mile radius and raised them as shadows under the caster's control. :rolleyes:

Those spells don't sound so bad, especially for epic spells.

We never really bothered with spell research rules - if we could come up with something reasonably balanced and the DM approved it, then we got it - so I didn't really think about it. I guess if you want to use the research rules, you could do them like normal 0-9th level spells... one week per spell level.

Yeah, I didn't require research for the higher-level spells either, although none of the PCs ever got high enough to use them anyway. :)
Alias
05-09-07, 03:24 PM I was actually talking about original Dungeons and Dragons, which Tactical Studies Rules (before they started using the abbreviation TSR) published in 1973 in three boxed pamphets called Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventures. Men and Magic contained the attack matrix tables--one for men and one for monsters--and the saving throw tables.
Oh wow... I've never heard of those. I know about the Chainmail rules (I actually saw a copy once) and Blackmoor, but not these. That's cool.

Those spells don't sound so bad, especially for epic spells.
Yeah... but YOU try doing them in d20 mechanics! ;)
Tequila_Sunrise
05-09-07, 05:37 PM I simply continue the nonepic spell progression. Wizards and clerics get 10th level spells at 21st level, sorcerers at 22nd, bards get 7th level at 23rd and paladins/ranger get 5th at 24th. No Improved Spell Capacity; after a character's highest nonepic spell level, DCs don't improve by spell level. Instead they get +1 to all DCs at each odd epic level. In order to attain that 'epic feel', I come up with combo spells like True Strike Meteor Strike and whatnot.
Thorsbjorn
05-09-07, 10:46 PM I simply continue the nonepic spell progression. Wizards and clerics get 10th level spells at 21st level, sorcerers at 22nd, bards get 7th level at 23rd and paladins/ranger get 5th at 24th. No Improved Spell Capacity; after a character's highest nonepic spell level, DCs don't improve by spell level. Instead they get +1 to all DCs at each odd epic level. In order to attain that 'epic feel', I come up with combo spells like True Strike Meteor Strike and whatnot.

So do wizards, clerics and sorcerers top out with 10th-level spells, bards with 7th and paladins and rangers with 5th?

I like the sound of true meteor strike. It's also very reminiscent of how I created some of the 10th- and 11th-level spells under original D&D. How easy do you think we could re-create true meteor strike under current epic spellcasting rules?
Tequila_Sunrise
05-10-07, 12:58 PM So do wizards, clerics and sorcerers top out with 10th-level spells, bards with 7th and paladins and rangers with 5th?
Wizards, clerics and sorcerers gain an additional spell level every two levels. Bards gain a spell level per three levels; paladins/rangers gain a spell level every four levels.
I like the sound of true meteor strike. It's also very reminiscent of how I created some of the 10th- and 11th-level spells under original D&D. How easy do you think we could re-create true meteor strike under current epic spellcasting rules?
I don't even want to think about it. I know the epic spellcasting system well enough, but why bother, ya know?
Thorsbjorn
05-10-07, 07:57 PM Wizards, clerics and sorcerers gain an additional spell level every two levels. Bards gain a spell level per three levels; paladins/rangers gain a spell level every four levels.

I don't even want to think about it. I know the epic spellcasting system well enough, but why bother, ya know?

How far up have you created spells for wizards and sorcerers?

P.S. Is anyone else having trouble getting instant email notification of new posts to their subscribed threads? At first they got sporadic, but now they've ceased entirely. :(
DragonBringerX
05-13-07, 04:22 AM I was wondering if there was another approach to epic spell casting that didn't involve seed and such? Something that seemed like a more natural progression.

look...just take a look @ the link in my sig... this is a different look that i have found to be VERY successful. enjoy! :D
Tequila_Sunrise
05-14-07, 12:49 AM How far up have you created spells for wizards and sorcerers?(
Not far, 'cause I've had limited opportunities to actually use anything epic. Damage spells are easy of course because the guidelines are right there in the DMG; there are a few other spell types that are pretty easy to progress (many that you'd think would be progressed even pre-epic), but a lot of spell types really need playtesting to iron out the proper spell levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Weiser_Cain 05-07-07, 08:35 AM	I was wondering if there was another approach to epic spell casting that didn't involve seed and such? Something that seemed like a more natural progression.
Witch 05-07-07, 08:36 AM	Feanmerc still uses seeds (but said seeds are lower level spells, which allows for far more variety), but it does look like a more natural progression (it assigns spell levels to each spell, and requires Improved Spell Capacity to be able to cast them.)
Alias 05-07-07, 12:15 PM	Try this one (http://shtar.pbwiki.com/f/LSC.zip). It's a level-based system that follows the normal progression; spells are built using metamagic and various modifiers.
Thorsbjorn 05-08-07, 04:58 AM	In the old days of original D&D, as I recall, I simply invented spells of 10th-12th level, and extended the regular spell progression into spells of those levels. Since a wizard (or an "MU" as we said back then :D) got 9th level spells at 17th level, I think I gave access to 10th level spells at 19th level, so it didn't exactly correspond to the 3rd Ed definition of "epic," but it was pretty close. I do think there's something fun, however, about having the epic spells follow somewhat different rules rather than just scaling up the non-epic system, but the 10th-12th level spells were cool too. Without trying to dig them out from 25 years ago, I seem to recall that I had a improved wish spell that, among other things, didn't carry any chance of going astray from the wisher's intent. It either worked or it didn't, but it didn't entail any dire (or humorous alas) consquences of slightly miswording the wish. :D In my campaign I have an ancient spellcaster (30,000 years old) who's supposed to be something around 100th level, which under the original D&D rules meant very little more than being 20th level. I think the old MU got one additional hit point per level, so that rising from 20th to 100th level would give him an additional 80 hit points, but that's about it. MUs never got iterative attacks, and I think both THAC0 and the various saving throw all maxed out well below 20th. I think it's possible that the number of spells per day continued to grow over the levels, so there might have been that benefit. In any case though I did once have him raise an island to stop a tidal wave that the forces of evil caused with an earthquake--long before the 3.0 introduced the epic spell raise island. I don't recall whether I ever actually sat down and declared that raise island was a 12th-level spell or just let him do it. Back in those days D&D was a great deal more slap-dash and DMs did much, much more on the fly. Anyway, I don't really have a strong preference for the current system of epic spells or simply having 10th-12th-level spells, although I have to admit that the DC system of determining spell power grants much more flexibility than the an additiona 3 spell levels would grant. Also, for the players here who play 50th-level characters and such, I'm not sure if even three more spell levels would suffice. I mean, if you follow the pattern of earlier spells, you'd get 11th-level spells at 21st level and 12th-level spells at 23rd level. Because the experience system required much larger amounts of experience for MUs under the original system, we never got PCs who actually got to 20th level. Indeed I went back and looked at the sheets of the PCs in my longest-running old original D&D campaign, which covered four or five years (although we didn't play constantly), and I think the highest-level character was a 17th-level rogue, er, thief I mean. :D Thieves had by far the lowest experience requirements, however. I think in that group the highest-level MU had reached 13th level. I just took a peek at the two files Alias provided, and I see that the use a similar concept of increasing spell levels, only not limited to 12th, and requiring an epic feat rather than gained automatically. Of course back in the days of original D&D we didn't have feats (although this didn't stop us from frequently saying, "Feets don't fail me now!" as we ran away :D). It looks like the number of spells of the higher levels you get per day increases much more slowly too. Alias, do you still have to research each spell of these levels as with the current epic spells?
Alias 05-08-07, 12:48 PM	In the old days of original D&D, as I recall... Wow, talk about a blast from the past. You made me go dig out my 1E DMG (cause back in those days, THAC0s and saves were listed in there, not the PHB. :D Saves and THAC0 maxed out at L21, actually.. a L21 MU had a THAC0 of 11. Which is actually about the same as a +10 AB... And yeah, they only got 1 hp/level after "name level" (which in this case was L11, IIRC). Back in those days D&D was a great deal more slap-dash and DMs did much, much more on the fly. Yeah... a lot of the epic spells our group has now were ported over from a long-running 1E campaign my DM played in. They played fast and loose with the rules, so in some cases I was hard-pressed to convert the spells to 3E mechanics, and in others I just tossed them out completely - things like Midnight Noon (which caused a sun - not THE sun, but A sun) to rise at night, or Call to Shade, which killed every living being in a 5-mile radius and raised them as shadows under the caster's control. :rolleyes: Alias, do you still have to research each spell of these levels as with the current epic spells? We never really bothered with spell research rules - if we could come up with something reasonably balanced and the DM approved it, then we got it - so I didn't really think about it. I guess if you want to use the research rules, you could do them like normal 0-9th level spells... one week per spell level.
Thorsljon 05-09-07, 04:03 AM	Wow, talk about a blast from the past. You made me go dig out my 1E DMG (cause back in those days, THAC0s and saves were listed in there, not the PHB. :D Saves and THAC0 maxed out at L21, actually.. a L21 MU had a THAC0 of 11. Which is actually about the same as a +10 AB... And yeah, they only got 1 hp/level after "name level" (which in this case was L11, IIRC). I was actually talking about original Dungeons and Dragons, which Tactical Studies Rules (before they started using the abbreviation TSR) published in 1973 in three boxed pamphets called Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventures. Men and Magic contained the attack matrix tables--one for men and one for monsters--and the saving throw tables. The attack matrix for men grouped the "to hit" numbers into what we informally called "swing zones" of three levels each, topping out at 16th level. A footnote indicated that while fighting-men (the original name of the fighter class) used the table as written, clerics advanced in groups of 4 levels and magic-users 5 levels. So fighting-men of 1st-3rd, clerics of 1st-4th, and magic-usgers of 1st-5th needed a 17 to hit AC 2 (plate armor and shield), 16 for AC 3 (plate armor), and on down to a 10 to hit AC 9 (no armor or shield). Note that unlike in 1st Ed, there's no AC 1 or 0 (and thus technically no THAC0) on the matrix, and no AC 10. Also note that AC 3 is plate armor, rather than the plate mail it would become in 1st Ed (opening the door to field plate armor and full plate armor in the 1st Ed Unearthed Arcana). So the fighting-man topped out on the attack matrix at 16th level, with a 5 needed to hit AC 2. Technically then a cleric didn't top out at the same number until 21st level, and a magic-user didn't top out until 26th level. Monsters, using a different attack matrix, topped out at 11 hit dice, where they needed a 7 to hit AC 2. Men and Magic also contained reference to an earlier combat system from Gary's original rules for medieval combat, called Chainmail, circa 1971, and using the 20-sided dice and the attack matrix represented a departure from the older rules for those who didn't like them. For saving throws, a magic-user topped out at 16th level. Clerics and fighters topped out at 13th level. (Note that fighting-men, clerics and magic-users were the only classes in Men and Magic.) As for spells, magic-users had access to spells of 1st-6th levels, and clerics 1st-5th. Their spells per day, however, progressed without any upward limit. For hit dice all three classes used a 6-sided die. Fighting-men got one per level from 1st to 10th, and at some levels got an extra hit point, two hit points, or three hit points. (At first level they got 1+1, at 9th level 9+3, without any apparent pattern.) After 10th level they sometimes got only an additional hit point, other times an additional die. Magic users at all levels sometimes got an extra die and sometimes only an extra point. An 11th-level magic-user ("wizard") had 8+1 (compared to 10+3 for the fighting-man.) Clerics, like magic-users, sometimes got a hit die and sometimes only a bonus hit point, but a few more hit dice than the magic-users. Dungeons and Dragons Supplement I: Greyhawk (1976) switched the hit dice system to something more familiar. The slightly-renamed fighter got an 8-sided die each a levels 1-9 and then +2 hit points per level thereafter. The magic-user got a 4-sided hit die each at levels 1-11, and +1 hit point per level thereafter. The cleric kept the 6-sided hit die at each level 1st through 8th, and then half a hit point per level thereafter. The new thief class got a 4-sided hit die each at 1st-10th levels. The table showing all four classes' hit dice indicates that a thief got half a hit point per level thereafter, but the table with the thief level names (master thief at 10th level) shows one hit point per level thereafter. Greyhawk introduced the paladin, but only as a lawful fighter with a Charisma score of at least 17. (In those days Gygax still had a one-dimensional alignment system that ran from law to chaos, as in Michael Moorcock's Elric books, where law equaled good and chaos equaled evil.) Gygax extended the spells per day table for magic-users from 14th to 22nd levels, and for clerics from 10th through 20th levels, although still didn't cap spells per day. He also added 7th- through 9th-level spells for magic-users and 6th- & 7th-level spells for clerics. I see that I have some 8th-level cleric spells penciled in: regenerate, restoration II, power word of command, and imprisonment. I also have a 9th-level cleric spell listed for saints only called miracle. Yup, that's right, I invented the miracle spell long before it entered official D&D. :D I'm sure that so did several thousand other players. :P I also have some 10th- and 11th-level magic-user spells penciled in. The 10th-level spells included disintegrate demons I, demon door, metal-flesh, massport, power word kill II, disintegrate devils I, devil door and defensive energy discharge. My 11th-level spells included disintegrate demons II, power word of command, excellent prismatic spray, mass-summons, disintegrate devils II, and offensive energy discharge. That's right--I also had a prismatic spray spell before official D&D had one. In fairness I got it from the same source as D&D, indeed the same source from which Gygax took the idea of a caster having more weaker or fewer more powerful spells, a short story by Jack Vance. In the story the protagonist used a spell called very fine prinsmatic spray, which disintegrated his opponent, and in a bit of coin-collecting humor I upgraded it from "very fine" to "excellent." :D In case you're wondering, Supplement II: Blackmoor added the monk and assassin classes. The monk got only a 4-sided hit die and had a limit of 16 levels. An assassin got a 6-sided hit die (yes, better than the original thief) and had a limit of 13 levels. The monk, incidentally, got iterative attacks up to 4 at 15th level, the first class to get them. Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry introduced the druid. The druid was a cleric subclass, getting both the cleric's six-sided dice and spells of up to 7th-level (ableit with a somewhat-different spell list). The druid had a maxium of 13 levels, but got only an extra hit point, not a hit die, at 4th and 9th levels, harking back to the original system contained in Men and Magic. Blackmoor also introduced demons and magic resistance, and prompted me to create my disintegrate demon spells, which effectively lower the magic resistance of the targeted demons. It's fun strolling down memory lane with you. :) Yeah... a lot of the epic spells our group has now were ported over from a long-running 1E campaign my DM played in. They played fast and loose with the rules, so in some cases I was hard-pressed to convert the spells to 3E mechanics, and in others I just tossed them out completely - things like Midnight Noon (which caused a sun - not THE sun, but A sun) to rise at night, or Call to Shade, which killed every living being in a 5-mile radius and raised them as shadows under the caster's control. :rolleyes: Those spells don't sound so bad, especially for epic spells. We never really bothered with spell research rules - if we could come up with something reasonably balanced and the DM approved it, then we got it - so I didn't really think about it. I guess if you want to use the research rules, you could do them like normal 0-9th level spells... one week per spell level. Yeah, I didn't require research for the higher-level spells either, although none of the PCs ever got high enough to use them anyway. :)
Alias 05-09-07, 03:24 PM	I was actually talking about original Dungeons and Dragons, which Tactical Studies Rules (before they started using the abbreviation TSR) published in 1973 in three boxed pamphets called Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventures. Men and Magic contained the attack matrix tables--one for men and one for monsters--and the saving throw tables. Oh wow... I've never heard of those. I know about the Chainmail rules (I actually saw a copy once) and Blackmoor, but not these. That's cool. Those spells don't sound so bad, especially for epic spells. Yeah... but YOU try doing them in d20 mechanics! ;)
Tequila_Sunrise 05-09-07, 05:37 PM	I simply continue the nonepic spell progression. Wizards and clerics get 10th level spells at 21st level, sorcerers at 22nd, bards get 7th level at 23rd and paladins/ranger get 5th at 24th. No Improved Spell Capacity; after a character's highest nonepic spell level, DCs don't improve by spell level. Instead they get +1 to all DCs at each odd epic level. In order to attain that 'epic feel', I come up with combo spells like True Strike Meteor Strike and whatnot.
Thorsbjorn 05-09-07, 10:46 PM	I simply continue the nonepic spell progression. Wizards and clerics get 10th level spells at 21st level, sorcerers at 22nd, bards get 7th level at 23rd and paladins/ranger get 5th at 24th. No Improved Spell Capacity; after a character's highest nonepic spell level, DCs don't improve by spell level. Instead they get +1 to all DCs at each odd epic level. In order to attain that 'epic feel', I come up with combo spells like True Strike Meteor Strike and whatnot. So do wizards, clerics and sorcerers top out with 10th-level spells, bards with 7th and paladins and rangers with 5th? I like the sound of true meteor strike. It's also very reminiscent of how I created some of the 10th- and 11th-level spells under original D&D. How easy do you think we could re-create true meteor strike under current epic spellcasting rules?
Tequila_Sunrise 05-10-07, 12:58 PM	So do wizards, clerics and sorcerers top out with 10th-level spells, bards with 7th and paladins and rangers with 5th? Wizards, clerics and sorcerers gain an additional spell level every two levels. Bards gain a spell level per three levels; paladins/rangers gain a spell level every four levels. I like the sound of true meteor strike. It's also very reminiscent of how I created some of the 10th- and 11th-level spells under original D&D. How easy do you think we could re-create true meteor strike under current epic spellcasting rules? I don't even want to think about it. I know the epic spellcasting system well enough, but why bother, ya know?
Thorsbjorn 05-10-07, 07:57 PM	Wizards, clerics and sorcerers gain an additional spell level every two levels. Bards gain a spell level per three levels; paladins/rangers gain a spell level every four levels. I don't even want to think about it. I know the epic spellcasting system well enough, but why bother, ya know? How far up have you created spells for wizards and sorcerers? P.S. Is anyone else having trouble getting instant email notification of new posts to their subscribed threads? At first they got sporadic, but now they've ceased entirely. :(
DragonBringerX 05-13-07, 04:22 AM	I was wondering if there was another approach to epic spell casting that didn't involve seed and such? Something that seemed like a more natural progression. look...just take a look @ the link in my sig... this is a different look that i have found to be VERY successful. enjoy! :D
Tequila_Sunrise 05-14-07, 12:49 AM	How far up have you created spells for wizards and sorcerers?( Not far, 'cause I've had limited opportunities to actually use anything epic. Damage spells are easy of course because the guidelines are right there in the DMG; there are a few other spell types that are pretty easy to progress (many that you'd think would be progressed even pre-epic), but a lot of spell types really need playtesting to iron out the proper spell levels.