Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 04-19-07, 12:15 PM	Yes, I am aware that fiendish codex downgraded its cr to 17. Though this is not without problems of its own, namely the ability to summon 2 balors. In keeping with its original flavour, I was wondering if anyone has tried to reconstruct it to let it retain its title as someone who can make balors quake in their booties.:) I would probably advance its HD to 30, and increase its physical stats to str43, dex23, con35 for starters(sorta like a huge balor). Not sure what feats to change. Devastating crit: pincers perhaps to retain the 3.0 vorpal feel? Should I retain multiweapon fighting? The limited spellcasting is problematic as well. Even with practiced spellcaster, a wizard can't help but dispel all its buffs at one go. Should I drop it or raise it? Or what spells would you think are the most useful in this context? Ideally, its cr should be around 23-24, halfway between a balor and an infernal. Ideas? Suggestions?:P
rob_douglas 04-19-07, 02:24 PM	Funny thing is I was glad of the drop, since I never liked a new demon coming in above a Balor, and wasn't impressed with that one in particular. Other than summoning 2 balors (which should be changed to Glabrezu to be faithful to past editions, where Balors were more rare) it doesn't have any real epic abilities. Edit: Upon rereading it, it is clear they wanted it to be something new and above Balors. Certainly compared to a 3.0 Balor it was a big deal. So perhaps 26HD would be about right. 30 is a bit much - increasing by more than the Balor did. You have the new physical stats right. Its a shame they decided to go the easy way and just drop the CR to match the stats, nullifying the flavor. That should make it about CR23. Maybe 24. 10th level Spellcasting is a bit weak, but an interesting difference. I don't think it is meant to be able to survive debuffing by a wizard - but to have options in dealing with others. ROB
runestar 04-20-07, 08:01 AM	Hmmm...26 HD...? I admit my original method may have been a little cheapskate. I took the new cr of 17, and added enough HD to make it around cr22(I estimated the stat bonuses to be worth around +2cr). The process seems somewhat anticlimatic on hindsight. Just give it more HD, rearrange its feats somewhat, and maybe remove some of its SLAs to streamline it somewhat.:embarrass
Aluroon 04-20-07, 08:09 AM	I was working on it a while back. Redid spellcasting to 3/4ths hit dice, changed the weapons some, modified a few things to keep it at the original CR. I don't know if I finished it though, I'll dig through my files later and look for it.
Upper_Krust 04-21-07, 07:10 AM	Hey Runestar! :) I think the first question might be what set of Demon Prince rules are you using? I presume not those within the Fiendish Codex? I think what I would do is probably give it 30 Hit Dice. Str 57, Dex 27, Con 39, Int 31, Wis 30, Cha 31 Attacks: Four Weapons (seven or more attacks) 2d10 base (or 3d10 with orichalcum rune weaponry) Pincers (single attack) 8d8 base (with Imp. Natural Attack)...Rend damage becomes 10d10 base. Wing Buffet (2 attacks) 2d8 base (with Imp. Natural Attack) These creatures are supposed to be Generals so it makes sense to give them four weapons. If you are playing in an epic game I would suggest all the weapons were +11 with an additional +10 worth of special weapon abilities. Damage Reduction: 15/epic, good and iron. Armour Class: 43 (-2 size, +10 Deflection, +8 Dex, +6 Divine, +21 natural) Spell-like abilities as a 15th-level sorcerer Movement: 180 ft. fly 540 ft. (average) Challenge Rating will be about 40 ish. That should scare Balors.
runestar 04-21-07, 07:58 AM	Well, I am certainly not recognizing the stats in fiendish codex as canon.. Ideally, my impression regarding the power level of a klurichir would be somewhere between a balor and an infernal, which would in turn be a few steps down from demon princes. Which is why I prescribed those stats I did(str43, dex23, con35 - basically a balor's base stats + advancement bonuses). This also stops it from overshadowing the infernal.:) Infernals are supposed to be among the strongest because of their deity blood. It makes little sense for typical demons to be able to surpass them automatically. This does not mean that a balor could not advance to a stage where it was stronger than an infernal, but a typical balor or even klurichir would probably have to give way to it.:P
Kain Darkwind 04-22-07, 12:50 AM	I did up some stats for one awhile ago. Klurichir Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri) Hit Dice: 24d8+264 (372 hp) Initiative: +12 Speed: 50 ft., fly 90 ft. (average) AC: 56 (+9 deflection, +8 Dex, +8 insight, +23 natural, -2 size), touch 33, flat-footed 48 Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+47 Attack: Claw +37 melee (3d8+15) Full Attack: 4 claws +37 melee (3d8+15), bite +35 melee (4d8+7), 2 wings +35 melee (2d8+7), pincers +35 melee (4d8+22 18-20/x4) Space/Reach: 15 ft. /15 ft. Special Attacks: Chew, fear aura, improved grab, spell-like abilities, spells, summon demons Special Qualities: Augmented criticals, damage reduction 20/good and cold iron, darkvision 90 ft., fast healing 10, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 20, cold 20 and fire 20, spell resistance 33, telepathy 200 ft. Saves: Fort +29, Ref +26, Will +26 Abilities: Str 41, Dex 27, Con 33, Int 25, Wis 27, Cha 28 Skills: Bluff +36, Concentration +38, Escape Artist +35, Gather Information +36, Hide +27, Intimidate +50, Knowledge (arcana) +34, Knowledge (the Planes) +34, Listen +35, Move Silently +35, Search +34, Spellcraft +38, Spot +35, Survival +35 (+39 tracking, +39 on other planes), Use Magic Device +36 Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Violate Spell Epic Feats: Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Multiweapon Rend Climate/Terrain: The Abyss Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 23 Treasure: Triple Standard Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil Advancemnt: 25-55HD (Huge), 56-72HD (Gargantuan) Chew: The klurichir deals 6d8+30 points of additional damage with a successful grapple check. Fear Aura (Su): A klurichir can radiate a 40-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 30 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 24th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same klurichir’s aura for 24 hours. A klurichir can choose to exclude demons from the effects of the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based. Improved Grab: A klurichir must hit with its pincer attack to use this ability. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can chew. It automatically deals pincer damage and chew damage with a sucessful grapple check. If the grapple check's die roll is 18-20, the pincer attack deals critical damage. A klurichir is not considered grappling when holding an opponent in its pincers. Spell-like abilities: Always active - detect law, detect magic, true seeing, unholy aura; at will- animate dead, blasphemy, deeper darkness, desecrate, fireball, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, hold monster, lightning bolt, major image, power word stun, telekinesis, suggestion, unhallow, unholy blight, word of chaos; 3/day - acid fog, power word kill, wall of fire. Caster level 24th; DC 19+spell level Spells: A klurichir casts spells as a sorcerer of 3/4 its HD. (18th level for the average klurichir) Spells per day: 6/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/6/4 Caster level 18th; DC 19+spell level Summon Demons (Sp): Twice per day, a klurichir can automatically summon 2 balors or 4 mariliths. This is the equivilent of an epic level spell.
Geraturatu 04-22-07, 07:53 PM	I don't see why the Klurichir needed reducing in power. It seemed like one of those single monster against party kind of encounter for when the players are at 20th level and they cannot get into the epic levels until later on in the campaign (like say, some event is supposed to allow them into epic levels or something). It would have given them a reasonable challenge, and it could even be the event to allow them into epic levels!
Kain Darkwind 04-22-07, 09:39 PM	The klurichir wasn't 'reduced in power'. The CR 17 reflected it's actual power as statted. It had a 3.0 inflated CR before, CR 17 is where it really should have been. The reason that it looks reduced in power is because the balor used to be 13HD, and now is 20, but the klurichir remains the same. However, that same unfortunate situation is exactly what the 3.5 solar and planetar suffered. The 3.5 increase to demons and devils was good in my mind, but the other denizens of the planes should have seen increases too. Pit fiends aren't supposed to be stronger (Str score wise) than solars. Or smarter and more charismatic.