Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arturius1 02-13-08, 11:34 AM	If I took this feat and had a metamagic feat that raised the spell level applied to a 1st level spell, would that spell still benefit from the feat? For example: Maximize Spell on Magic Missile?
Selgard 02-13-08, 12:45 PM	It would apply unless you used Heighten, as the other metamagic feats don't actually alter the "spell leveL'.. They only alter the spell slot used to power the spell. imo anyway :)
Saefal 02-13-08, 11:57 PM	No your right, the actual spell level is unchanged as are all effects and such based off level. I thought the opposite until my friend showed me up the other day so the rule is fresh in my mind. So if you intensify a Scorching ray it still falls under the first auto quicken category.
rob_douglas 02-16-08, 11:28 AM	Spell levels based on metamagic are always the least beneficial. So in this case, a maximized magic missile is a 4th level spell before determining how it is affected by Autoquicken. ROB
NoldorForce 02-17-08, 11:51 PM	Spell levels based on metamagic are always the least beneficial. So in this case, a maximized magic missile is a 4th level spell before determining how it is affected by Autoquicken.Where's this rule printed or implied? I don't recall hearing anything of the sort.
beej_silver 02-18-08, 07:05 AM	From PHB p.88, "Effects of Metamagic Feats on a spell" "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."
NoldorForce 02-18-08, 11:35 AM	And that seems to go in the exact opposite direction that rob_douglas was talking about.
rob_douglas 02-18-08, 02:34 PM	It IS exactly opposite what I am talking about. The rules clearly use higher slots when it is is a pain to do so. This applies to magic item costs (a wand of maximized magic missiles costs more than one of magic missiles). The rules of common sense cover this case. Intensified, 5xEnhanced Fireballs are not 3rd level spells for the purpose of AutoQuicken either. Unless you really think that casters are so underpowered at Epic level - something I have never ever heard anyone argue in the slightest - that they need special, unreasonable power-enhancing rules to help their spells. ROB
NoldorForce 02-18-08, 09:03 PM	It IS exactly opposite what I am talking about. The rules clearly use higher slots when it is is a pain to do so. This applies to magic item costs (a wand of maximized magic missiles costs more than one of magic missiles). The rules of common sense cover this case. Intensified, 5xEnhanced Fireballs are not 3rd level spells for the purpose of AutoQuicken either.But that's an exception rather than an implication that it's a rule. Do you have something more substantial to counter beej_silver's find? (It's in the PHB/SRD definition of metamagic feats.)Unless you really think that casters are so underpowered at Epic level - something I have never ever heard anyone argue in the slightest - that they need special, unreasonable power-enhancing rules to help their spells.That's a strawman; all we're arguing about is what the rules permit. "Common sense" is not a rule of D&D that gets to override the printed stuff; don't use it as a placeholder to contradict such. I'd agree that this certainly isn't the intent of Automatic [Metamagic] or metamagic rods, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules are quite clear that Automatic [Metamagic], metamagic rods, and many other free-metamagic effects apply based on the spell's spell level (static under most metamagic) and not the spell's slot level (dynamic under most metamagic, and distinct from spell level).
Saefal 02-18-08, 11:44 PM	Here from the SRD just to clarify the argument. "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up." "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description." "AUTOMATIC QUICKEN SPELL [EPIC] Prerequisites: Quicken Spell, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells. Benefit: The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots. The normal limit to the number of quickened spells a character may cast per round applies. Spells with a casting time of more than 1 full round can’t be quickened. Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time a character takes the feat, the spells of his or her next three lowest spell levels can now be quickened with no adjustment to their spell slots. This feat doesn’t increase the casting time for those spells that normally become full-round actions when cast in metamagic form." From this we see it specified in many places that the spell "operates at its original spell level". This of course means that a fireball regardless of how many intensifys and such are on it is still a 3rd level spell. That being said. I completely agree that this breaks down in epic and is a good place for a house ruling to change the way it operates in certain circumstances. Because whilst the rules may state it is legal it can be very badly abused.
beej_silver 02-19-08, 01:51 AM	Well, if it bothers you so much, rob_douglas, apply that as a house rule. :D Personally, though, I don't see why we shouldn't use these rules as written. Case in point; under rules as written, you're Intensified, 5x Enhanced Fireball, although indeed autoquickened, is stopped by a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, being an effective 3rd level spell. (yay, I managed to avoid using a 34th-level spell slot, now it's just 30th level, that's so powergamed!) I'm not saying casters are underpowered. I'm saying allowing a Maximized Magic Missile to be autoquickened isn't broken.
NoldorForce 02-19-08, 02:44 AM	I'm not saying casters are underpowered. I'm saying allowing a Maximized Magic Missile to be autoquickened isn't broken.At epic levels, presumably.
rob_douglas 02-20-08, 12:07 AM	Sorry All.. I plead illness....I had the flu for 5 days..... :( I forgot I had already spent a lot more time on this and convinced myself I agreed that AutoQuicken uses the base spell level of the spell. It grants quickening for free. As further proof, note that you only take it 3 times to get 9 spell levels (assuming you don't use Complete Arcane....) and that it is implied you don't need to take it any more, which you would if you were supposed to use the metamagic level. I will try to remember things I had convinced myself of in the past.... Things I used to be wrong on: * BAB and racial HD plus class levels * Epic Wards vs Disjunction and too many other things to remember. ROB