BAB at epic levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

BAB at epic levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mad_man0816
07-09-07, 04:17 AM Once you surpass level 20 do you gain extra attacks or do your four attacks just increase in bonus?
zeratulcraft
07-09-07, 04:30 AM You gain Epic attack bonus, but you never get an increase in Base Attack Bonus.

Epic Bonus is 1 per 2 levels starting at 21st.
Lord_Ao
07-09-07, 04:43 AM You gain Epic attack bonus, but you never get an increase in Base Attack Bonus.

Epic Bonus is 1 per 2 levels starting at 21st.

Yes but if you take levels in another class instead of 'Epic' your BAB would still go up at the same rate as the new class but you would NOT gain extra attacks.

For example, if you had a level 20 fighter/level 8 barbarian (total 28), your BAB would be +28/+23/+18/+13 NOT +28/+23/+18/+13+/+8/+3...

Someone else might want to confirm this...
Bernat
07-09-07, 07:43 AM Mmmh no. When you reach 20 class HD, your BAB and Saves no longer increase by class type. Instead, you gain +1 epic attack bonus at odd levels beyond 20 and +1 epic save bonus at even levels beyond 20.

The number of attacks doesn't change any more once you reach 20, so a 40th-level Wizard will do only 2 attacks in a full-round attack. I think epic attack bonus should be considered as BAB when calculating number of attacks (never more than 4, anyways), but I don't think this is how it works per RAW.
runestar
07-09-07, 08:03 AM That epic manyshot feat lets you exceed the base 4 attacks/round limit, albeit very slowly (effectively 1 extra attack every 10 lvs). Apart from this, I know of no other way.
Krispieman
07-09-07, 06:41 PM The Epic Attack Bonus (EAB) that is gained at every odd level beyond 20 (21st, 23rd, 25th, etc) is treated the same as your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) in all regards but one: iterative attacks.

This means that a Fighter 20/ Barbarian 8 would have a BAB of +20 and an EAB of +4 with 4 attacks per round. The maximum number of attacks you can have in a round, based on your BAB is 4. This means that it doesn't matter if your BAB + EAB = 4000, you still only have 4 attacks.

Following the rules, a Wizard 40 would indeed only have 2 attacks, because EAB doesn't add additional ones (the wizard would have a BAB of +10 and en EAB of +10). A much used house rule is to allow EAB to add iterative attacks up to the maximum of 4, just to get rid of the idiotic difference between a Fighter 20/Wizard 20 and a Wizard 20/Fighter 20.

The reason you don't get more than 4 attacks a round is because the 5th, 6th, etc attack based on your BAB wouldn't matter anyway. Calculated at -20, -25, etc these stand virtually no chance of actually striking your opponent and only serve to bog down play. If you feel differently, you're of course welcome to house rule it so you do gain these attacks, but that's up to you.

But other than that, EAB can be used just as BAB, for almost everything: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, qualifying for PrCs, qualifying for feats, etc, etc. In fact, in some cases its actually needed, Epic PrCs that require a BAB of 21+, for instance.

So, to (shortly) answer the main question:
No, you do not gain extra attacks. Yes, they only increase in bonus.

K-man :cool:
Lord_Ao
07-09-07, 07:11 PM A much used house rule is to allow EAB to add iterative attacks up to the maximum of 4, just to get rid of the idiotic difference between a Fighter 20/Wizard 20 and a Wizard 20/Fighter 20.

An excellent point.

So, really, it is in your interest beyond 20th level to take levels of classes which have really good special abilities rather than good BAB and saves, because those things would simply go to waste.
rob_douglas
07-10-07, 12:34 AM Yes but if you take levels in another class instead of 'Epic' your BAB would still go up at the same rate as the new class but you would NOT gain extra attacks.

For example, if you had a level 20 fighter/level 8 barbarian (total 28), your BAB would be +28/+23/+18/+13 NOT +28/+23/+18/+13+/+8/+3...

Someone else might want to confirm this...
This is absolutely incorrect, as shown in follow-up posts, but I wanted to call it out. The BAB/EAB switch is based on Character Level, not Class Level. Character Level is equivalent to Hit Dice. Except if all you have are reacial Hit Dice (Dragons, Demons, Giants) then the BAB continues and you don't use EAB until you start adding class levels after the total Hit Dice from racial Hit Dice and class levels is greater than 20.

ROB
bluemage55
07-10-07, 03:50 AM The 3.5 Epic SRD rules never mention that EAB does not apply to iterative attacks.

Instead, we are left with the reasonable house rule that only 4 attacks from BAB are allowed.

Thus, a wizard 40 by the 3.5 SRD rules would indeed have 4 attacks.
Bernat
07-10-07, 04:10 AM I think that's not actually true. From the SRD (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/epicLevels.html):

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
bluemage55
07-10-07, 04:15 AM The one I have doesn't say that:

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

I just rechecked the d20 document from the WotC d20 page and it corroborates with mine.

d20srd.org seems to have done their own thing, however.
Bernat
07-10-07, 04:23 AM Good thing they updated that, then. I try to keep as few house-rules as possible...
bluemage55
07-10-07, 04:33 AM Good thing they updated that, then. I try to keep as few house-rules as possible...

Err, no.

The d20.org version is a house-rule.
runestar
07-10-07, 06:41 AM The 3.5 Epic SRD rules never mention that EAB does not apply to iterative attacks.

Instead, we are left with the reasonable house rule that only 4 attacks from BAB are allowed.

Thus, a wizard 40 by the 3.5 SRD rules would indeed have 4 attacks.
Only if you ignore the precedent set in the ELH. Nothing in the SRD specifically contradicts that, so we can safely assume that in 3.5, EBAB still does not grant you extra iterative attacks.
bluemage55
07-10-07, 07:16 AM Only if you ignore the precedent set in the ELH. Nothing in the SRD specifically contradicts that, so we can safely assume that in 3.5, EBAB still does not grant you extra iterative attacks.

Or you could safely assume that what is not specifically included is not true.

And that in updating to 3.5, the designers killed off a rule that was illogical to begin with, one that screwed up figuring out attacks for monstrous HD.

It would be possible to reasonably argue it either way, but I prefer my argument of course. :D
GAMBLE_d13
07-10-07, 08:05 AM So Blue, are you saying Interiative Attacks continue to accumulate at Epic levels? Eventually ending with a 40th level fighter getting 8 attacks and a 40th level wizard getting 4?
Krispieman
07-10-07, 08:29 AM I think what he's saying is that the house rule I mentioned is not a house rule, but an SRD rule.

So EAB does give iterative attacks, but up to the normal maximum of 4.

K-man :cool:
Witch
07-10-07, 08:41 AM So Blue, are you saying Interiative Attacks continue to accumulate at Epic levels? Eventually ending with a 40th level fighter getting 8 attacks and a 40th level wizard getting 4?
No, he's saying that the wizard will eventually get 4 attacks. The fighter's won't increase, because the limitation to 4 iterative attacks is not an intrinsic property of epic attack bonus. For instance, outsiders who use a weapon also cap out at 4 attacks, even if they have a BAB of 45.
bluemage55
07-10-07, 03:08 PM No, he's saying that the wizard will eventually get 4 attacks. The fighter's won't increase, because the limitation to 4 iterative attacks is not an intrinsic property of epic attack bonus. For instance, outsiders who use a weapon also cap out at 4 attacks, even if they have a BAB of 45.

Yep.
AaronDireBear
07-10-07, 09:19 PM Thats bloody gay...
I houserule it that wizards and monks et al who do not have +1 BAB per level like fighters and rangers DO get up to 4 attacks, onc ethey hit +16 total.
Considering monsters have NO cap on attacks I say its fair to let monks, rogues, clerics, and wizards catch up a LITTLE.
bluemage55
07-10-07, 09:52 PM Thats bloody gay...
I houserule it that wizards and monks et al who do not have +1 BAB per level like fighters and rangers DO get up to 4 attacks, onc ethey hit +16 total.
Considering monsters have NO cap on attacks I say its fair to let monks, rogues, clerics, and wizards catch up a LITTLE.

You really need to stop putting your foot in your mouth on these boards.

Monsters have the same intrinsic 4/round cap that every other character has.

And as I have argued, the 3.5 Epic SRD rules do not cap wizards, monks, etc.
runestar
07-10-07, 11:33 PM What is the significance of allowing wizards to get 3rd and 4th attacks? They won't be in melee anyways, and their bab will still suck, such that even if they make a full attack, they still can't hit anything. Same goes for rogues/monks to some extent.
bluemage55
07-11-07, 03:25 AM What is the significance of allowing wizards to get 3rd and 4th attacks? They won't be in melee anyways, and their bab will still suck, such that even if they make a full attack, they still can't hit anything. Same goes for rogues/monks to some extent.

That's not necessarily true.

Buffs can allow any character to have a significant chance of hitting with all attacks, and multiple attacks can have a significant effect.

Also, a character that deals significant damage (or using weapons with additional effects, such as vorpal) can still average a noticeable amount on iterative atacks simply with the additional chances of natural 20s.
archerpwr
07-11-07, 04:50 PM What is the significance of allowing wizards to get 3rd and 4th attacks? They won't be in melee anyways, and their bab will still suck, such that even if they make a full attack, they still can't hit anything. Same goes for rogues/monks to some extent.

A wizard has 10 less to hit. Considering how potent buffs are, I think a wizard 40 would be better in melee than a barbarian 40. Interestingly, most people on the CO board believe bab alone determines number of attacks.
GAMBLE_d13
07-12-07, 11:15 AM The DMG 3.5 has a sidebar dealing with increased attacks and it states that you do not gain more attacks through aquiring EAB. So, sorry wizards, this is one you don't get.
archerpwr
07-12-07, 04:56 PM The DMG 3.5 has a sidebar dealing with increased attacks and it states that you do not gain more attacks through aquiring EAB. So, sorry wizards, this is one you don't get.

That explains why. Thanks for finding that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mad_man0816 07-09-07, 04:17 AM	Once you surpass level 20 do you gain extra attacks or do your four attacks just increase in bonus?
zeratulcraft 07-09-07, 04:30 AM	You gain Epic attack bonus, but you never get an increase in Base Attack Bonus. Epic Bonus is 1 per 2 levels starting at 21st.
Lord_Ao 07-09-07, 04:43 AM	You gain Epic attack bonus, but you never get an increase in Base Attack Bonus. Epic Bonus is 1 per 2 levels starting at 21st. Yes but if you take levels in another class instead of 'Epic' your BAB would still go up at the same rate as the new class but you would NOT gain extra attacks. For example, if you had a level 20 fighter/level 8 barbarian (total 28), your BAB would be +28/+23/+18/+13 NOT +28/+23/+18/+13+/+8/+3... Someone else might want to confirm this...
Bernat 07-09-07, 07:43 AM	Mmmh no. When you reach 20 class HD, your BAB and Saves no longer increase by class type. Instead, you gain +1 epic attack bonus at odd levels beyond 20 and +1 epic save bonus at even levels beyond 20. The number of attacks doesn't change any more once you reach 20, so a 40th-level Wizard will do only 2 attacks in a full-round attack. I think epic attack bonus should be considered as BAB when calculating number of attacks (never more than 4, anyways), but I don't think this is how it works per RAW.
runestar 07-09-07, 08:03 AM	That epic manyshot feat lets you exceed the base 4 attacks/round limit, albeit very slowly (effectively 1 extra attack every 10 lvs). Apart from this, I know of no other way.
Krispieman 07-09-07, 06:41 PM	The Epic Attack Bonus (EAB) that is gained at every odd level beyond 20 (21st, 23rd, 25th, etc) is treated the same as your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) in all regards but one: iterative attacks. This means that a Fighter 20/ Barbarian 8 would have a BAB of +20 and an EAB of +4 with 4 attacks per round. The maximum number of attacks you can have in a round, based on your BAB is 4. This means that it doesn't matter if your BAB + EAB = 4000, you still only have 4 attacks. Following the rules, a Wizard 40 would indeed only have 2 attacks, because EAB doesn't add additional ones (the wizard would have a BAB of +10 and en EAB of +10). A much used house rule is to allow EAB to add iterative attacks up to the maximum of 4, just to get rid of the idiotic difference between a Fighter 20/Wizard 20 and a Wizard 20/Fighter 20. The reason you don't get more than 4 attacks a round is because the 5th, 6th, etc attack based on your BAB wouldn't matter anyway. Calculated at -20, -25, etc these stand virtually no chance of actually striking your opponent and only serve to bog down play. If you feel differently, you're of course welcome to house rule it so you do gain these attacks, but that's up to you. But other than that, EAB can be used just as BAB, for almost everything: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, qualifying for PrCs, qualifying for feats, etc, etc. In fact, in some cases its actually needed, Epic PrCs that require a BAB of 21+, for instance. So, to (shortly) answer the main question: No, you do not gain extra attacks. Yes, they only increase in bonus. K-man :cool:
Lord_Ao 07-09-07, 07:11 PM	A much used house rule is to allow EAB to add iterative attacks up to the maximum of 4, just to get rid of the idiotic difference between a Fighter 20/Wizard 20 and a Wizard 20/Fighter 20. An excellent point. So, really, it is in your interest beyond 20th level to take levels of classes which have really good special abilities rather than good BAB and saves, because those things would simply go to waste.
rob_douglas 07-10-07, 12:34 AM	Yes but if you take levels in another class instead of 'Epic' your BAB would still go up at the same rate as the new class but you would NOT gain extra attacks. For example, if you had a level 20 fighter/level 8 barbarian (total 28), your BAB would be +28/+23/+18/+13 NOT +28/+23/+18/+13+/+8/+3... Someone else might want to confirm this... This is absolutely incorrect, as shown in follow-up posts, but I wanted to call it out. The BAB/EAB switch is based on Character Level, not Class Level. Character Level is equivalent to Hit Dice. Except if all you have are reacial Hit Dice (Dragons, Demons, Giants) then the BAB continues and you don't use EAB until you start adding class levels after the total Hit Dice from racial Hit Dice and class levels is greater than 20. ROB
bluemage55 07-10-07, 03:50 AM	The 3.5 Epic SRD rules never mention that EAB does not apply to iterative attacks. Instead, we are left with the reasonable house rule that only 4 attacks from BAB are allowed. Thus, a wizard 40 by the 3.5 SRD rules would indeed have 4 attacks.
Bernat 07-10-07, 04:10 AM	I think that's not actually true. From the SRD (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/epicLevels.html): Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
bluemage55 07-10-07, 04:15 AM	The one I have doesn't say that: Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus. I just rechecked the d20 document from the WotC d20 page and it corroborates with mine. d20srd.org seems to have done their own thing, however.
Bernat 07-10-07, 04:23 AM	Good thing they updated that, then. I try to keep as few house-rules as possible...
bluemage55 07-10-07, 04:33 AM	Good thing they updated that, then. I try to keep as few house-rules as possible... Err, no. The d20.org version is a house-rule.
runestar 07-10-07, 06:41 AM	The 3.5 Epic SRD rules never mention that EAB does not apply to iterative attacks. Instead, we are left with the reasonable house rule that only 4 attacks from BAB are allowed. Thus, a wizard 40 by the 3.5 SRD rules would indeed have 4 attacks. Only if you ignore the precedent set in the ELH. Nothing in the SRD specifically contradicts that, so we can safely assume that in 3.5, EBAB still does not grant you extra iterative attacks.
bluemage55 07-10-07, 07:16 AM	Only if you ignore the precedent set in the ELH. Nothing in the SRD specifically contradicts that, so we can safely assume that in 3.5, EBAB still does not grant you extra iterative attacks. Or you could safely assume that what is not specifically included is not true. And that in updating to 3.5, the designers killed off a rule that was illogical to begin with, one that screwed up figuring out attacks for monstrous HD. It would be possible to reasonably argue it either way, but I prefer my argument of course. :D
GAMBLE_d13 07-10-07, 08:05 AM	So Blue, are you saying Interiative Attacks continue to accumulate at Epic levels? Eventually ending with a 40th level fighter getting 8 attacks and a 40th level wizard getting 4?
Krispieman 07-10-07, 08:29 AM	I think what he's saying is that the house rule I mentioned is not a house rule, but an SRD rule. So EAB does give iterative attacks, but up to the normal maximum of 4. K-man :cool:
Witch 07-10-07, 08:41 AM	So Blue, are you saying Interiative Attacks continue to accumulate at Epic levels? Eventually ending with a 40th level fighter getting 8 attacks and a 40th level wizard getting 4? No, he's saying that the wizard will eventually get 4 attacks. The fighter's won't increase, because the limitation to 4 iterative attacks is not an intrinsic property of epic attack bonus. For instance, outsiders who use a weapon also cap out at 4 attacks, even if they have a BAB of 45.
bluemage55 07-10-07, 03:08 PM	No, he's saying that the wizard will eventually get 4 attacks. The fighter's won't increase, because the limitation to 4 iterative attacks is not an intrinsic property of epic attack bonus. For instance, outsiders who use a weapon also cap out at 4 attacks, even if they have a BAB of 45. Yep.
AaronDireBear 07-10-07, 09:19 PM	Thats bloody gay... I houserule it that wizards and monks et al who do not have +1 BAB per level like fighters and rangers DO get up to 4 attacks, onc ethey hit +16 total. Considering monsters have NO cap on attacks I say its fair to let monks, rogues, clerics, and wizards catch up a LITTLE.
bluemage55 07-10-07, 09:52 PM	Thats bloody gay... I houserule it that wizards and monks et al who do not have +1 BAB per level like fighters and rangers DO get up to 4 attacks, onc ethey hit +16 total. Considering monsters have NO cap on attacks I say its fair to let monks, rogues, clerics, and wizards catch up a LITTLE. You really need to stop putting your foot in your mouth on these boards. Monsters have the same intrinsic 4/round cap that every other character has. And as I have argued, the 3.5 Epic SRD rules do not cap wizards, monks, etc.
runestar 07-10-07, 11:33 PM	What is the significance of allowing wizards to get 3rd and 4th attacks? They won't be in melee anyways, and their bab will still suck, such that even if they make a full attack, they still can't hit anything. Same goes for rogues/monks to some extent.
bluemage55 07-11-07, 03:25 AM	What is the significance of allowing wizards to get 3rd and 4th attacks? They won't be in melee anyways, and their bab will still suck, such that even if they make a full attack, they still can't hit anything. Same goes for rogues/monks to some extent. That's not necessarily true. Buffs can allow any character to have a significant chance of hitting with all attacks, and multiple attacks can have a significant effect. Also, a character that deals significant damage (or using weapons with additional effects, such as vorpal) can still average a noticeable amount on iterative atacks simply with the additional chances of natural 20s.
archerpwr 07-11-07, 04:50 PM	What is the significance of allowing wizards to get 3rd and 4th attacks? They won't be in melee anyways, and their bab will still suck, such that even if they make a full attack, they still can't hit anything. Same goes for rogues/monks to some extent. A wizard has 10 less to hit. Considering how potent buffs are, I think a wizard 40 would be better in melee than a barbarian 40. Interestingly, most people on the CO board believe bab alone determines number of attacks.
GAMBLE_d13 07-12-07, 11:15 AM	The DMG 3.5 has a sidebar dealing with increased attacks and it states that you do not gain more attacks through aquiring EAB. So, sorry wizards, this is one you don't get.
archerpwr 07-12-07, 04:56 PM	The DMG 3.5 has a sidebar dealing with increased attacks and it states that you do not gain more attacks through aquiring EAB. So, sorry wizards, this is one you don't get. That explains why. Thanks for finding that.