Banning Epic Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Banning Epic Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scorpions_are_cool_
04-16-08, 12:21 AM OK, I have the Magic system, Psionic system, Incarnum system, and the system from Tome of Magic.
My problem is I have the Epic Level Handbook and it only offers an Epic Spell system with recommendations for Epic Psionics. It's harder to make a balanced system for something like the Truenamer or the Binder (Yes, I know about the recent support, however these don't compare too epic spells just 10th level and up spells achieved through the feat Expanded Spell Capacity) or Incarnum.
So is it fair too ban epic spells?
Are they overpowered anyways?
Would spellcasters be undermined by the other classes if I banned other classes?
I can see how spellcasters might be angry since they can't get any new abilities, just advance old ones but I have to make it fair with the other systems.
Or is it unimportant? Are Epic Spells over-rated? Are they so hard to research that by 30th level the Epic Spells in use will hardly be game-changing or outshining the Shadowcasters (Tome of Shadow is amazing, but still no Pact magic, or Truename Magic, or Incarnum)?
I'm very unsure. No one in my group but me (the DM) knows that Epic Spells even exist so it's not like they would be missing out. But still...
Enough questions?
:confused:

OH! I just thought of another one! If I took out epic spells, would the bonus feat progression change for spellcasters?
HighDarkTemplar
04-16-08, 03:41 AM It depends really, how is the power level of the party? Well optimized melee characters? If yes, epic spells would probably be a good idea for casters. Besides, they only have 2 epic spells at level 21,3 at level 27 and 4 at level 37 and so on. Ask your DM about what he thinks. There is also two very important rule when it comes to Epic spells, one; it has to look cool, because it is the pinnacle of magic. Every epic spell has to go through the DM and be approved before it can be used. You probably know this already, but I thought I should point it out. Another thing about epic spells, is they DO NOT scale, as normal spells and psion powers (they don't actually scale, but there is no maximum limit for how many powerpoints you can put in them, except for that it cannot be higher than your manifester level, and there is no maximum ammount of dices either). I cannot say anything about the truenamer or binder because I don't have the tome of magic or magic incarnum (spelling?), but ask your DM and explain what you think. He still has the final word on the matter anyways....
Tequila_Sunrise
04-16-08, 04:24 AM So is it fair too ban epic spells?
Absolutely.

Are they overpowered anyways?
The epic spell mechanic sucks because it manages to be overpowered and underpowered at the same time. Most types of spells suck when you make them using epic spellcasting (direct damage, summoning, etc.) while certain types of spells are incredibly easy to abuse especially with a DM new to the system (buff spells for example).

Would spellcasters be undermined by the other classes if I banned other classes?
Not sure what you mean here. How can something be undermined by a non-existant something-else?

I can see how spellcasters might be angry since they can't get any new abilities, just advance old ones but I have to make it fair with the other systems.
The idea that epic spellcasting gives casters access to new and exciting abilities is a common misconception. Just about any magical feat that can be imagined is already covered with the spell level mechanic. Those few ideas that aren't explicitly written into non-epic rules as spells only need the DM to assign them a spell level. For example, the fortify seed can grant a caster the power to extend his life span, but that doesn't mean it would be overpowered to allow a homebrew spell of X level which does the same thing or more. It's just a matter of at what level you, as the DM, want immortality to become possible.

Or is it unimportant? Are Epic Spells over-rated? Are they so hard to research that by 30th level the Epic Spells in use will hardly be game-changing or outshining the Shadowcasters (Tome of Shadow is amazing, but still no Pact magic, or Truename Magic, or Incarnum)?
I think epic spells are highly overrated. I'm not savvy to all the math involved, but I've heard other posters mention that epic spellcasting isn't a viable expenditure of resources until 30th level anyway.

I'm very unsure. No one in my group but me (the DM) knows that Epic Spells even exist so it's not like they would be missing out. But still...
Though they will likely find out about epic spells eventually (from taking a peek at the ELH or reading one of the many D&D online forums), it looks like you have a golden opportunity to ignore one of this game's most poorly executed rules without getting an earful from your players.

OH! I just thought of another one! If I took out epic spells, would the bonus feat progression change for spellcasters?
No, it would not. Although a power gamer might scoff at the idea, the epic spellcasting feat was never an assumed part of any spell casting character, so the feat progressions are balanced (as much as anything in the ELH is balanced) regardless of the existence of epic spellcasting.

TS
Scorpions_are_cool_
04-16-08, 05:33 PM Thanks! That is some great advice. Now I don't have to worry about making homebrewed epic sytems for my alternate-system-using players. :)
Tequila_Sunrise
04-16-08, 06:03 PM Glad to help! If you're just getting into epic play, you may be interested in my own rendition of the Epic Level Handbook (you can find the download link by clicking the second link in my signature). You may have realized from the tone of my post, but I think that a lot of the published ELH is stupidly ridiculous. I just revised it after a discussion with another poster, so if you have the time to look it over tell me what you think!

/end shameless self-promotion

TS
Nezkrul
04-17-08, 11:15 AM the only problem I can forsee for your players would be that, in very high epic levels, level 9 spells just aren't gonna be able to do the job fast enough, or at all; due to immunities, resistances, and defenses of the creatures/npcs they will inevitably encounter. But you are the DM and you can probably handle that much :D
Frozen_Flame
04-19-08, 11:44 AM As a fan of powerfull things I bring you two thoughts (spelled right?):
1) Treasure: richer PCs means they can afford more, why rob them of a way to "waste" resorces.
2) Power level: if you feel your PCs can beat the c**p out of others just fine without the E-spellcasting system, then there is no reason to change that.
It's your call, you could also just modify what you think is broken.
Scorpions_are_cool_
04-19-08, 05:59 PM Can an Epic spell pass Wish in effectiveness by 30th level? 40th?
Nezkrul
04-19-08, 07:32 PM depends on what you mean by "pass". Read the epic spell rules on the srd here -> Epic Spell Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm)
StruckingFuggle
04-20-08, 04:29 PM I'm sure someone will chime in with more clear and salient arguments than I, but I wanted to point out that the broken-ness of the epic spellcasting system isn't immediately apparent to a lot of people, including me.

A lot of it, however, (as far as I've seen, at least) hinges on two factors:

1: Spells of an instantaneous duration last forever, cannot be dispelled, and in fact cannot even be Disjoined; heck I don't even know if there's an epic spell for getting rid of them, because it's like Raise Dead - once the magic does its work, the magic is gone. This means that Epic Buffs of instantaneous duration are truly 'permanent'; and in fact even function inside AMFs.

2: through creative use of spells to jack your spellcraft check, and gathering a bunch of followers, you can use mitigating factors to get the DCs of powerful epic spells really low enough that they're plenty easy to make, casting things that you "really shouldn't have the spellcraft for".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scorpions_are_cool_ 04-16-08, 12:21 AM	OK, I have the Magic system, Psionic system, Incarnum system, and the system from Tome of Magic. My problem is I have the Epic Level Handbook and it only offers an Epic Spell system with recommendations for Epic Psionics. It's harder to make a balanced system for something like the Truenamer or the Binder (Yes, I know about the recent support, however these don't compare too epic spells just 10th level and up spells achieved through the feat Expanded Spell Capacity) or Incarnum. So is it fair too ban epic spells? Are they overpowered anyways? Would spellcasters be undermined by the other classes if I banned other classes? I can see how spellcasters might be angry since they can't get any new abilities, just advance old ones but I have to make it fair with the other systems. Or is it unimportant? Are Epic Spells over-rated? Are they so hard to research that by 30th level the Epic Spells in use will hardly be game-changing or outshining the Shadowcasters (Tome of Shadow is amazing, but still no Pact magic, or Truename Magic, or Incarnum)? I'm very unsure. No one in my group but me (the DM) knows that Epic Spells even exist so it's not like they would be missing out. But still... Enough questions? :confused: OH! I just thought of another one! If I took out epic spells, would the bonus feat progression change for spellcasters?
HighDarkTemplar 04-16-08, 03:41 AM	It depends really, how is the power level of the party? Well optimized melee characters? If yes, epic spells would probably be a good idea for casters. Besides, they only have 2 epic spells at level 21,3 at level 27 and 4 at level 37 and so on. Ask your DM about what he thinks. There is also two very important rule when it comes to Epic spells, one; it has to look cool, because it is the pinnacle of magic. Every epic spell has to go through the DM and be approved before it can be used. You probably know this already, but I thought I should point it out. Another thing about epic spells, is they DO NOT scale, as normal spells and psion powers (they don't actually scale, but there is no maximum limit for how many powerpoints you can put in them, except for that it cannot be higher than your manifester level, and there is no maximum ammount of dices either). I cannot say anything about the truenamer or binder because I don't have the tome of magic or magic incarnum (spelling?), but ask your DM and explain what you think. He still has the final word on the matter anyways....
Tequila_Sunrise 04-16-08, 04:24 AM	So is it fair too ban epic spells? Absolutely. Are they overpowered anyways? The epic spell mechanic sucks because it manages to be overpowered and underpowered at the same time. Most types of spells suck when you make them using epic spellcasting (direct damage, summoning, etc.) while certain types of spells are incredibly easy to abuse especially with a DM new to the system (buff spells for example). Would spellcasters be undermined by the other classes if I banned other classes? Not sure what you mean here. How can something be undermined by a non-existant something-else? I can see how spellcasters might be angry since they can't get any new abilities, just advance old ones but I have to make it fair with the other systems. The idea that epic spellcasting gives casters access to new and exciting abilities is a common misconception. Just about any magical feat that can be imagined is already covered with the spell level mechanic. Those few ideas that aren't explicitly written into non-epic rules as spells only need the DM to assign them a spell level. For example, the fortify seed can grant a caster the power to extend his life span, but that doesn't mean it would be overpowered to allow a homebrew spell of X level which does the same thing or more. It's just a matter of at what level you, as the DM, want immortality to become possible. Or is it unimportant? Are Epic Spells over-rated? Are they so hard to research that by 30th level the Epic Spells in use will hardly be game-changing or outshining the Shadowcasters (Tome of Shadow is amazing, but still no Pact magic, or Truename Magic, or Incarnum)? I think epic spells are highly overrated. I'm not savvy to all the math involved, but I've heard other posters mention that epic spellcasting isn't a viable expenditure of resources until 30th level anyway. I'm very unsure. No one in my group but me (the DM) knows that Epic Spells even exist so it's not like they would be missing out. But still... Though they will likely find out about epic spells eventually (from taking a peek at the ELH or reading one of the many D&D online forums), it looks like you have a golden opportunity to ignore one of this game's most poorly executed rules without getting an earful from your players. OH! I just thought of another one! If I took out epic spells, would the bonus feat progression change for spellcasters? No, it would not. Although a power gamer might scoff at the idea, the epic spellcasting feat was never an assumed part of any spell casting character, so the feat progressions are balanced (as much as anything in the ELH is balanced) regardless of the existence of epic spellcasting. TS
Scorpions_are_cool_ 04-16-08, 05:33 PM	Thanks! That is some great advice. Now I don't have to worry about making homebrewed epic sytems for my alternate-system-using players. :)
Tequila_Sunrise 04-16-08, 06:03 PM	Glad to help! If you're just getting into epic play, you may be interested in my own rendition of the Epic Level Handbook (you can find the download link by clicking the second link in my signature). You may have realized from the tone of my post, but I think that a lot of the published ELH is stupidly ridiculous. I just revised it after a discussion with another poster, so if you have the time to look it over tell me what you think! /end shameless self-promotion TS
Nezkrul 04-17-08, 11:15 AM	the only problem I can forsee for your players would be that, in very high epic levels, level 9 spells just aren't gonna be able to do the job fast enough, or at all; due to immunities, resistances, and defenses of the creatures/npcs they will inevitably encounter. But you are the DM and you can probably handle that much :D
Frozen_Flame 04-19-08, 11:44 AM	As a fan of powerfull things I bring you two thoughts (spelled right?): 1) Treasure: richer PCs means they can afford more, why rob them of a way to "waste" resorces. 2) Power level: if you feel your PCs can beat the c**p out of others just fine without the E-spellcasting system, then there is no reason to change that. It's your call, you could also just modify what you think is broken.
Scorpions_are_cool_ 04-19-08, 05:59 PM	Can an Epic spell pass Wish in effectiveness by 30th level? 40th?
Nezkrul 04-19-08, 07:32 PM	depends on what you mean by "pass". Read the epic spell rules on the srd here -> Epic Spell Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm)
StruckingFuggle 04-20-08, 04:29 PM	I'm sure someone will chime in with more clear and salient arguments than I, but I wanted to point out that the broken-ness of the epic spellcasting system isn't immediately apparent to a lot of people, including me. A lot of it, however, (as far as I've seen, at least) hinges on two factors: 1: Spells of an instantaneous duration last forever, cannot be dispelled, and in fact cannot even be Disjoined; heck I don't even know if there's an epic spell for getting rid of them, because it's like Raise Dead - once the magic does its work, the magic is gone. This means that Epic Buffs of instantaneous duration are truly 'permanent'; and in fact even function inside AMFs. 2: through creative use of spells to jack your spellcraft check, and gathering a bunch of followers, you can use mitigating factors to get the DCs of powerful epic spells really low enough that they're plenty easy to make, casting things that you "really shouldn't have the spellcraft for".